Post/Author/DateTime	Post
korcheck 02-15-08, 06:40 PM	I had been thinking recently on what types of powers might have been a part of the various "Marks of Death" i.e. least, lesser, and greater marks and then thought about the elven nation as a whole and the use of positive energy to create undead. Though at the time of House Vol they may not have been that strict on the idea of negative energy as I think they are now (or am I wrong there?) This lead me to wonder if perhaps the marks of death were more like the rest of the true marks in that they were not able to damage others physically As the stories (not cannon) suggested. (Physical damage being more the domain of Abberrant marks. More on this later.) If this was the case then what type of positve energy spells might have actually been used as a mark trait and still be considered in the realm of "death"? Then again the traits of the mark may have not been able to harm other people but still have been under the domain of negative energy i.e. animate dead as an ability. I also began to wonder that if indeed the Mark of Death had the power to harm (again a trait only found in abberant marks today) then perhaps this mark was not a true mark at all but the very first abberrant mark. Which may suggest that they don't always come from cross breeding true marks. So, along that line of thought I would like to hear from everyone what their thoughts on this might be. I have posted three seperate theories and would like to hear thoughts on all of them if you can or at least one if you can't.
Edymnion 02-15-08, 08:57 PM	What stories have you heard about the Mark of Death being able to harm people? Remember that the novels are not part of the setting, and generally are not written by anyone connected with the setting. Its been fairly constant around here that the Mark of Death has no ability to kill things, since as you said, direct damage is the hallmark of an abberant mark. All we know for sure is that House Vol centered around negative powered necromancy, and that the mark dovetailed into that. There is no indication that I know of that says the Mark of Death was any more powerful or destructive than any other true dragonmark, nor that it was really unusual in any way. I personally give the Syberis mark the power to transform someone into a Lich, but thats mainly for story reasons to explain Erandis. Obviously a power that the House would refrain from using on it's own, seeing as how the type change invalidates their dragonmark, but it dovetails nicely into the idea that the main source of contention between House Vol and the other elves were that the others were going towards making Deathless, while the most powerful members of House Vol could make Liches with a touch. Which, to keep the idea of the effects of the more powerful marks having evolved versions of the powers of lesser marks (Mark of Storm going from making wind and fog to full on weather control, for example), that would likely mean the Greater Mark of Death could use Animate Greater Undead, the Lesser Mark could have Animate Dead, and the Least Mark might have Summon Undead I. Although, I prefer to put things like Gentle Repose and Chill Touch as options for the Least mark.
Hellcow 02-15-08, 10:47 PM	Well, I just posted on essentially the same topic on the Magic board, so I'll summarize here. I'm certainly of the opinion that the powers of the mark itself are unlikely to be directly offensive. I'd be far more likely to use speak with dead or deathwatch than inflict, among other things because inflict and fear effects can already be found as aberrant marks. When if comes to liches, I can certainly see where Edy is coming from, but I prefer to keep it separate from the mark. The line of Vol is supposed to have had a long interest in necromancy tracing its roots all the way back to the Qabalrin of Xen'drik. Since we haven't presented lots and lots of Vol liches, I personally prefer to think of this as rituals the family were still studying and perfecting, something Erandis' mother performed as a last resort when she believed it was the only way to save her daughter. So the key to me is that the members of the line of Vol were skilled necromancers even without the mark; the mark just made things easier. House Cannith is filled with artificers and magewrights - take the mark of making away and they'd lose a great deal (because of the dragonmark focuses), but they'd still have that knowledge as a foundation. There's also the question of what dragonmark focus items they may have created - their equivalents of the creation forge and the like.
Edymnion 02-15-08, 11:55 PM	Yes, I just see the whole liching Erandis as a desperate, last ditch emergency effort by her mother. Not exactly something they would have time to go dragging themselves over to the nearest eldritch machine or focus device to pull off, and definitely not something that could normally be done (unless Erandis just happened to have the world's most expensive teddy bear). Sure, it could have been an effect of Erandis's super mark, but I rather prefer the idea that it was mom bestowing one last gift on her daughter before succumbing than to think Erandis's mark gave her a "Get out of dying free card". But, I agree with you that, should I ever stat up an actual MoD for use in my games (and I won't), I would not make Liching a power of any of them. Just way too much headache when the whole party suddenly becomes liches at once, and shoots their ECL through the roof.
skrap-san 02-16-08, 03:01 AM	As far as I remember Erandis made King Kaius into a vampire using a necromantic ritual, but she changed the ritual from something that should have made him a lich. This gives credit to the theory that her mother might also know such a ritual and etc etc... Well that is my two cents in the matter at least.
Arcane Guyver 02-16-08, 03:20 PM	In my game I figure that one of the more powerful MoD abilities is raise dead, and the five or so altars of resurrection in Khorvaire are some of the remnants left over from House Vol (rather than being a curiously powerful Jorasco tool). Nobody can use them now, but most people are loathe to get rid of them...
korcheck 02-19-08, 10:23 AM	Hey everyone thanks for the replies so far. Edy I know that the books aren't cannon that is why I put right next to that comment on the damage "not cannon" These questions are conjecture only. I would like to hear what people think about my idea on the possibility of postive energy type spells as well. Is/was necromancy accepted in the elven society? If it was and is not now, is this the reason? What do you guys think about the idea that if it was a mark that could harm people then it was what is called today an abberrant mark but because that is a newer term it was not something thought of in that way at the time so was considered just another mark. If this was indeed the case, what may have been the real cause of the creation of an abberrant mark?
Syltorian 02-19-08, 11:12 AM	Is/was necromancy accepted in the elven society? If it was and is not now, is this the reason? Necromancy is now, and has been since the beginning, a pillar of Aerenal. They are 'ruled' by the Deathless, who are the result of necromancy, just of a different type than Undead. Living elves try to look 'dead'. Nowadays, negative/Mabran necromancy will get you killed, or thrown off the island pretty quickly, though traditions still linger (witness the Stillborn). Positive/Irian necromancy is a foundation of the religion, society and power. Necromancy spells that are not clearly associated with either (speak with dead, gentle repose, e.a.) are probably fairly common. Before House Vol was wiped out, the two traditions were equally accepted and resisted, likely depending on where in Aerenal you were. Vol holdings would have been resisting the growing power of the Undying Court; the latter's holdings would have refused Qabalrin-derived House Vol necromancy. The destruction of House Vol was the last step in a power struggle that had been going on for quite a while, and was political as well as ideological. What do you guys think about the idea that if it was a mark that could harm people then it was what is called today an abberrant mark but because that is a newer term it was not something thought of in that way at the time so was considered just another mark. If this was indeed the case, what may have been the real cause of the creation of an abberrant mark? It cannot have been an aberrant mark as this is defined now: one of the defining features of the aberrant marks is that their powers are chaotic and not passed on amongst family lines. The child of a chill-touched aberrant marked might possess the feather fall power, or any other of the list, or he might not gain any mark ever, and nobody in the family ever will. There is no family of aberrant marked people (House Tarkanan is not a biological family), but there was a family of elves bearing the Mark of Death. Naturally, if it helps your campaign to say that the aberrant marks appeared as things went crazy when the last bearer of the Mark of Death was destroyed, and are that they are the shards of a smashed part of the Prophecy, go ahead. Likewise, if you want to say that Vol magic somehow managed to stabilise an aberrant mark, use that - it would be another reason for the dragons involvement, but it would add a completely new dimension to the line of Vol, as it implies a mastery over marks that the Twelve would like to recover if they get to know about it.
Rekko 02-19-08, 11:59 AM	I think to determine the powers of the Marks of Death we should consider the Mark of Shadow. (Dragonmarked p.64) The Phiarlan lines were bards that traveled from tribe to tribe gathering news and delivering some of them. They worked for a unified elf nation on Aerenal and for its protection. And that is why about 35 000 years later the Mark of Shadow appeared in the lines of the Phiarlans. Considering how the history of the family, its impact on the elf nation and what we know of the Vol line, we could try to figure out what was the role of Vol in Aerenal. Since it is highly suggested that the Vol come from the lost traditions of the Qabalrin necromancer's I suppose they were an important factor in the implantation of the Undying Court. Since the Qabalrin would have created the first vampires, it could be a possibility that the Vol created the first Deathless. However, the fact that Erandis' mother turned her into a lich proves that the Vol played with both Undead and Deathless. I haven't stated my Marks of Death, but it sure would turn around spells like gentle repose, speak with dead. I like the idea that Clone could be one of those spell. Rekko
Hellcow 02-19-08, 12:38 PM	Seeing Korcheck's post, I was going to pop on and respond... but Syltorian's said everything I was planning to say. Positive and negative necromancy were competing traditions long before the conflict, and the line of Vol had the support of a number of other unmarked lines; many of Khorvaire's elves - especially in the northeast - are descended from elves who supported Vol and were exiled following the destruction of the line. It's these elves who brought the basic principles of the Blood of Vol to Khorvaire, which is why it's strongest in Karrnath and the Lhazaar Principalities. And as Syltorian has said, by canon (Dragonmarked, among others) "this lack of lineage is a defining element of the aberrant marks" - a true aberrant mark isn't passed reliably on to offspring in the manner of a pure mark. Obviously you could say that the Mark of Death was the bizarre crossroads - being as reliable as a pure mark, but as deadly as an aberrant mark - but it wouldn't be an aberrant mark in the traditional sense of the word.
davethebrave371 02-23-08, 01:01 PM	This thread has got me thinking...we should compile a list of potential MoD spell-like abilities here, all non-damage death-related spells like the two KB mentioned and gentle repose and stuff like that, slotted to an appropriate degree of Mark, and that way when people make the "what are the stats of the Death Marks?" threads, we can just link them to that post in this thread with all the options. Anyone with an eye for crunch know off the top of their head what all the non-damage spells with death flavour in the PH are? I say in the PH because I can only think of one Mark, Cannith, that has non-PH spells, and they follow a structure similar to two groupings (cure and inflict wounds) already in the PH. For those Spell Compendium and other source(s) spells, we can always plop them in with those Feats in Dragonmarked that unlocked further powers related to your Mark. Or should we just make this a seperate thread?
Rekko 02-23-08, 06:04 PM	I already have a list of PHB spells on the hand. Some of the spells might not fit, but I included them anyway. Animate dead (lvl 3-4): create skeletons and zombies for different tasks Calm emotions (lvl 2): calms ‘extreme’ emotions at funeral Create/Command Undead: create/command more powerful undead. Clone (lvl 8): Life insurance, prevents death in some way. Death Knell (lvl 2): slay agonizing people. Death ward (lvl 4-5): protects from death effects Deathwatch (lvl 1): determine living conditions Finger of death (lvl 7-8): slay living Flesh to stone/Stone to flesh (lvl 6): create statues and tombs at the image of the deceased . Gentle repose (lvl 2-3): prevents rotting, preserves corpse Inflicts: slay agonizing or living people and heals undead. Legend lore (lvl 6-7): pronounce the deeds of deceased at funeral Mending (lvl 0): repair deceased clothing Raise dead (lvl 5): Give out life insurance “we raise you the day next of your death” Resurrection (lvl 7): Life insurance “please preserve by body and raise me in a year” Soul Bind (lvl 9): Preserve souls to prevent resurrection or until the date of a planned True Resurrection. Speak with Dead (lvl 3): ask dead last will, what’s the true cause of their death. Spectral hand (lvl 2): delivers range touch spells (used on battlefields) Temporal stasis (lvl 8): corpse preservation (for clone, or other) True Resurrection (lvl 9): Life insurance “raise me in 50 years” Wish (lvl 9): ouch, too many possibilities (for example, “I wish that my daughter Erandis becomes a lich to survive this extermination”) (Magic jar lvl5) : interesting spell, but I don’t see how it could be used. Rekko