A new rule??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A new rule??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord Bane
01-24-05, 12:38 AM One of my players decided he is ready to DM and has done fairly, however he has tried to install a rule that if the players role a 1 on a d20 to hit they then role a percentage dice. 01-10 = The weapon breaks.... 10-30 the loss of the next round of action. In the adventure we played no less than 5 (and i was thinking like 7) people including 3 players lost their weapons permanently.

What do you guys think about this rule? I personally hate it, but when i bring it up to him he acts as If I am just unhappy because it is a rule that HE designed. I think it detracts from the game and the bond the players have with thier weapons. The statistics I believe are 5 in 1000. In one level of say 13 encounters I estimate that my party takes Approx 1000 swings. Therefore every level my party should break approx. 5 weapons.

Please give me some feedback!
Just Justin
01-24-05, 12:45 AM yea i dont think that rule is very balanced, try to tell him that
even know it adds (spice) its just not fun for you or your teammates
Arcane Guyver
01-24-05, 01:06 AM I use something like that in my campaign (completely at my player's request, believe it or not). I think a variant rule similar in concept is in the DMG.

My rule is this: If you roll a natural '1' on an attack roll, that's a fumble threat. Roll again with all the same modifiers: if you 'hit' with this second roll, your character missed his attack but caught himself before fumbling. If you 'miss' with the second roll, it's a confirmed fumble.

At this point the DM rolls a d20. 1-10 = something really bad happens to the character (like slipping & falling prone). 11-20 = something not so bad happens to the character (like losing grip on the weapon and throwing it accidentally).

Again, my players requested this rule be used. I'm all for 1 = auto-miss, but this variant does add a bit of danger to the roll.
Straylight
01-24-05, 04:24 AM My players would probably just get up and walk away from the table if I tried something like this.

First, I don't need to make the game harder on my players. The average encounter CR I throw at them is two levels above the party average, and I don't pull punches. I don't roll behind a screen, either, so the players know I'm not fudging dice -against OR for them. My players are used to me style, though, so I've amazingly only had three characters get killed, and two of those were knocked off by other players...

Second, my group is keen enough in differentiating character and player that they'll often give me amusing descriptions of what happens when they screw up. Watching the Rogue describe what happened when he badly botched a Jump check (off the top of the Airship docking tower in Whispers, no less) was far more inventive than anything I could have come up with for ending up with a 7 on a DC 20 check.

I DO use the Natural 1 = automatic miss rules (for attacks, anyway, but not for skill checks and saving throws), and occasionally I'll have a bowstring snap on somebody, but for the most part, my games are geared toward fast action, not nitpicky details like whether or not the Ranger is carrying extra bowstrings.

Plus, you might remind the DM that magic weapons don't simply break when you miss a swing and hit floor instead of meat. Actually, most mundane weapons won't either. Snapping the blade of a well-made (not to be confused with masterwork) sword can be an exceptionally difficult thing to do. I've seen a 150-pound ROTC cadet standing on the blade of a saber suspended by nothing but other cadets holding onto the tip and pommel.

I'd go along with it if I had a DM try to use this rule, but only to a point. The first time he tells me an Adamantine longsword breaks because I missed my target and hit a rock instead, I'd just get up and leave the table.
Tatsukun
01-24-05, 04:28 AM Well, such a rule does hurt PCs (who attack a lot over the course of a campaign) more than NPCs (who usually are only around for one fight) or monsters (who can't fumble).

Also, it hurts large power attackers less than two weapon fighters (who make more attacks).

Personally, I don't like this system. If I take 20 commoners (+0 Melee) and have them attack 20 more commonors (AC 10) it seems odd to me that 2 or 3 will drop thier weapons or fall down every 6 seconds.

-Tatsu
Somebloke
01-24-05, 04:34 AM Shoot him. Burn the corpse over water to get rid of the sucky DMness.

Seriously, while I understand this sort of rule appeals to some people, I personally do not like it. There are enough nasty variables in the equation already- this is only going to make the players feel powerless.
Ricohard_Draconis
01-24-05, 05:26 AM we use a rule where if you fumble (natural one) then fail the check (fail an attack roll) then your weapon is either dropped or otherwise broken for the next turn. and it hits npc's as hard as it hits Pc's.

For instance we just started SotLW and in the tavern scene saber breaks in and levels his crossbow and goes to fire it at the lady but the string pings off. (i rolled naturel one, natural one) this was then followed by one kobold getting his spear stuck in the floor.
Straylight
01-24-05, 05:31 AM I don't think this is a case of bad DM so much as just inexperienced DM. As a more experienced DM, Bane, you might want to find a spot near him on the table and let him know that you're available if he needs advice or has questions.

A lot of new DMs (and I was the same way) tend to misjudge the power level of the characters. Some overestimate, some underestimate. It sounds like this one is overestimating their ability in relation to the challenges he's issuing them and trying to up the difficulty artificially.

Perhaps remind him that the characters are supposed to be heroes. They're supposed to be able to go above and beyond what a normal human can do, they're supposed to be powerful, talented, extraordinary individuals who have the potential to become truely great.

Conan only dropped or lost his sword when it became necessary to the plot. Same with Indiana Jones and his whip. Legolas break a bowstring? Heaven forbid! (yes, I know about what his bow is, but my point stands), and it took a direct confrontation with the absolute most powerful creature in the world to shatter Narsil.

Alternately, take him out into the back yard and have him try to break a broomstick. Once he succeeds (or gives up), tell him that a quarterstaff is about double that thickness of wood, and probably banded with something to help hold integrity, and that's not even getting into steel weapons. That ought to get the point across that shattering weapons isn't an easy thing to do, intentionally or not.

EDIT: I have had bowstrings snap on characters, and I have had weapons shatter, but it has never been random. I always use it as a plot device to force certain tactics or to increase the tension of a situation. Legolas never missed or ran out of arrows except when it was necessary to the plot, and I do the same thing to my players. My players tend to not keep track of ammo because I usually don't worry about it, but I've had my Ranger grab for an arrow and realize she's only got two left a couple of times now. It makes a wonderful way to make the situation just that much more hectic (it usually happens when the party is being swarmed by Emerald Claw soldiers).

Remember folks, this is Eberron. This is pulp action/fantasy with a dark twist. It's a game of mighty heroes and superhuman exploits, but it's also a game that's all shades of gray and where the heroes don't always get the good ending.
Targos
01-24-05, 08:59 AM If he isn't open to the idea of removing the rule suggest dealing damage to the weapon instead of automatically breaking it. Some weapons are actually very hard to break by sundering. (Sometimes they don't even get damaged because of hardness.) Breaking mundane weapons is annoying. Breaking magic weapons is down right expensive. Remember, constructive criticism goes farther than complaints.
Streamweaver
01-24-05, 10:03 AM One of my players decided he is ready to DM and has done fairly, however he has tried to install a rule that if the players role a 1 on a d20 to hit they then role a percentage dice. 01-10 = The weapon breaks.... 10-30 the loss of the next round of action. In the adventure we played no less than 5 (and i was thinking like 7) people including 3 players lost their weapons permanently.

What do you guys think about this rule? I personally hate it, but when i bring it up to him he acts as If I am just unhappy because it is a rule that HE designed. I think it detracts from the game and the bond the players have with thier weapons. The statistics I believe are 5 in 1000. In one level of say 13 encounters I estimate that my party takes Approx 1000 swings. Therefore every level my party should break approx. 5 weapons.

Please give me some feedback!

With rules I usually tell people to try it out for a bit (which it looks like you've done) then if it isn't working out talk to the DM about what it is that ruins the game experince for you. Then talk to him about what he was trying to accomplish gaming wise with the rule. I used to have a rule that if you rolled a 1 on an attack roll you had to make a DC15 reflex save or drop your weapon. It thought it would add some funny fumble stories and make combat more tense, but all it really did was make things more annoying for everyone.

So my advice is lay off the statistics and just get to the heart of the matter with him, what was he trying to add to the game with this rule. He may already see it's not working out like he had hoped.
ThatsDM2U
01-24-05, 11:34 AM I actually use a set of tables for fumbles and critical hits. Fumbles are handled alot like criticals (ok, you rolled a one, now roll to confirm the fumble). MY players love these tables and one night when I couldn't find them, they made me print another set. I am unsure where they came from because a friend of mine gave me the copy, but if you would like, I could email them to you. Just send me an email at
i_b_dotcom at yahoo dot com
and I will send them out to you.
Magic Engineer
01-24-05, 12:01 PM Legolas break a bowstring? Heaven forbid! (yes, I know about what his bow is, but my point stands)

Well, if you watch the behind the scenes for the extended edition ROTK, Legolas' bow breaks, but its pretty funny how it pans out.

My group tends to use natural 1s as automatic misses, and a threat for fumble. I just started using a table, and its pretty cool, but before that we just used common sense and decided what happened as per DM discretion.

Often that works, but I remember once when my DM misunderstood me and had a prisoner i had at sword point stab me in the forhead and sever my brain lobes. Given thats almost impossible, he thought i had the blade of my sword at the guys throat, with the guy pinned to me, in reality, i had one hand reached out at full arms length over his mouth, and the other hand had my sword whose point was pricking the guy in the throat.

So make sure you understand your players and your DM understands you or any fumble/critical hit table or system can bite you in the butt.
Arcane Guyver
01-24-05, 12:02 PM ...it hits npc's as hard as it hits Pc's...
Yup, that's been my experience too. Probably why my players like the rule - for every time they accidentally stab their sword into the ceiling, an enemy falls prone during a charge or busts a bolt while firing a crossbow.
Rinna
01-24-05, 12:12 PM We actually have something similar in our group. When we roll a natural one, we roll again. If our next roll would have been a success, it is deamed we just fail. If it is a failure, depending on the situation ad the die roll, our DM desides how badly you fail. (We have actually had some one roll two 1's in a row - things didn't go well with her.)

However, we also have a critical success rule. Whenever we roll a natural 20, we get to roll again. Anything above a 10, the ones number gets added to our roll. This gives our characters the ability to hit something we might not ordinarily have hit. Such as something with a DC 25, but because of the charater's modifyer, she can only get as good as a 24. So on very rare momets, she can do very heroic stunts. And this goes for everyone, not jst PC's.

I think this balances out. We like playing with fate, and the idea that we might fail critically is just as exciting as knowing we could succeed with greater force.

Of course, to each her own.

Rinna
fhilbrandt
01-24-05, 12:15 PM The original game (AD&D v1.0) had a similar rule; you rolled a 1: you fumbled (lost the use of the weapon on the next round). DM rolled a d4: on a 1, you rolled a saving throw for the weapon vs "crushing blow" to see if you damaged your weapon. Most steel weapons, and certainly any magic ones, usually made this saving throw.

Using a similar system for v3.5, on an attack roll of a 1: DM rolls a d10. On a 2-3: character loses Dex bonus for next round. On a roll of a 1: Weapon is lost to character and a new one must be readied. Damage to a weapon on a case-by-case basis, based on circumstance.

Under v3.5, damage to a weapon should be limited to a sunder attack from an opponent.
Gez
01-24-05, 12:31 PM It is a very bad rule. If he really wants to do such a thing, try to convince him to use a simpler, more streamlined system. That is:

Natural 1 is a fumble threat, roll another attack to see if it confirms. If the new attack roll would fail, then it's a fumble. Otherwise, it's just a normal miss. This is better than the percentile table because it mirrors the critical hit system.

If you fumble, your clumsy maneuver opens up a hole in your defense -- you provoke attacks of opportunities from enemies threatening you. This is better because it uses a mechanics that's already in place in the game -- no need to reinvent the wheel.
Gurv
01-24-05, 01:21 PM A lot of DMs use critical fumble rules (some are mentioned above), but this one isn't very realistic. At this point, it is easier for a foe to break his own weapon than it is for me to Sunder it.

Our group uses two homebrew rules to cover critical success and fumbles.

1) Any natural roll of 20 is calculated as a 30 (rather than an automatic success) and any natural roll of 1 is calculated as a -10 (rather than an automatic failure).

2) A natural roll of 1 on an attack roll (in addition to the rule above) provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the attack. As normal, this AoO can be used for any attack action.

Both rules go both ways, favoring the PCs sometimes and hindering them at others. Our logic for the first rule is that automatic success and failure doesn't make much sense but random luck should play some part in events. Our logic for the second rule is that in 3e attacks of opportunity represent opponents taking advantage of openings left by suboptional tactical choices. But making a mistake shouldn't doom you.

A fighter in a typical party is doomed without a weapon, barring a miracle. Spellcasters are generally unaffected. Two-weapon users are going to lose tons of weapons. Special materials are not taken into account by your description, including wooden weapons breaking as easily as steel ones.
Redbeard_Gamer
01-26-05, 07:01 PM I use a system where a natural 1 is a fumble threat, with the character having to make a DC10 reflex save to avoid dropping their weapon. I like some of these Ideas presented here, especially the AoO ones, because my system doesn't account for natural weapons (I've got a minotaur in the party with a history of not being physically able to drop his horns).

The rule that started this thread, though, is not very good.
Ithamar
01-27-05, 11:57 AM My old DM had a rule that on a natural 1 you hit yourself. No saving throw, nothing, you simply hit yourself. So for the power-attacking raging barbarian, hitting yourself became a big problem. On more than one occasion we had players killing themselves by rolling a 1.

When I took over I changed the rule to be a bit more lenient. On a role of a natural 1 you then role a d6. For melee, 1-2 means you incur an AoO from whoever you were attacking, 3-4 means there is a chance that you hit any allies that are directly adjacent (doesn't hardly ever happen as my PC's are usually spread out), 5-6 nothing happens but you cannot take any further action that round (i.e. if you get 3 attacks, roll a 1 on the second one, then you do not get your third attack that round). For ranged weapons its a little different. A roll of a 1-2 on the d6 means that your bowstring thwacks you on the arm and you take 1d4 of damage, 3-4 means you might accidentally shoot someone other than the intended target, and 5-6 is the same: no further action.

But I also allow players to burn an action point to add to that natural 1 to avoid any kind of fumbling penalties.
Golbez57
01-27-05, 03:23 PM I think this is less a "good rule, bad rule" issue and more of a "DM trying something new that isn't liked by players" situation.

In that case, I'd suggest that you get the input of the other players TOGETHER with your friend/DM, and come to some type of agreement on what works for everyone. Don't try to gather opinions away from him , or there's more room for him to interpret your dissatisfaction as trying to dictate how he should run his games.

If your fellow players don't mind the new rule, then you're faced with having to accept it as part of the game or (unlikely) choosing not to participate in that campaign anymore.
Arcane Guyver
01-27-05, 03:29 PM I like the idea of a critical fumble triggering an attack of opportunity. Unfortunately, this doesn't cover what happens to someone who critically fumbles using a ranged weapon.
Phanuel
01-27-05, 05:24 PM A finger or other appendage gets caught in the bow string? One gets clocked in the head w/ a sling? A thrown weapon flies out of the hand on the back swing (imagine the havoc w/ an orcish shotput, I've done it w/ a bowling ball). THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS!!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Bane 01-24-05, 12:38 AM	One of my players decided he is ready to DM and has done fairly, however he has tried to install a rule that if the players role a 1 on a d20 to hit they then role a percentage dice. 01-10 = The weapon breaks.... 10-30 the loss of the next round of action. In the adventure we played no less than 5 (and i was thinking like 7) people including 3 players lost their weapons permanently. What do you guys think about this rule? I personally hate it, but when i bring it up to him he acts as If I am just unhappy because it is a rule that HE designed. I think it detracts from the game and the bond the players have with thier weapons. The statistics I believe are 5 in 1000. In one level of say 13 encounters I estimate that my party takes Approx 1000 swings. Therefore every level my party should break approx. 5 weapons. Please give me some feedback!
Just Justin 01-24-05, 12:45 AM	yea i dont think that rule is very balanced, try to tell him that even know it adds (spice) its just not fun for you or your teammates
Arcane Guyver 01-24-05, 01:06 AM	I use something like that in my campaign (completely at my player's request, believe it or not). I think a variant rule similar in concept is in the DMG. My rule is this: If you roll a natural '1' on an attack roll, that's a fumble threat. Roll again with all the same modifiers: if you 'hit' with this second roll, your character missed his attack but caught himself before fumbling. If you 'miss' with the second roll, it's a confirmed fumble. At this point the DM rolls a d20. 1-10 = something really bad happens to the character (like slipping & falling prone). 11-20 = something not so bad happens to the character (like losing grip on the weapon and throwing it accidentally). Again, my players requested this rule be used. I'm all for 1 = auto-miss, but this variant does add a bit of danger to the roll.
Straylight 01-24-05, 04:24 AM	My players would probably just get up and walk away from the table if I tried something like this. First, I don't need to make the game harder on my players. The average encounter CR I throw at them is two levels above the party average, and I don't pull punches. I don't roll behind a screen, either, so the players know I'm not fudging dice -against OR for them. My players are used to me style, though, so I've amazingly only had three characters get killed, and two of those were knocked off by other players... Second, my group is keen enough in differentiating character and player that they'll often give me amusing descriptions of what happens when they screw up. Watching the Rogue describe what happened when he badly botched a Jump check (off the top of the Airship docking tower in Whispers, no less) was far more inventive than anything I could have come up with for ending up with a 7 on a DC 20 check. I DO use the Natural 1 = automatic miss rules (for attacks, anyway, but not for skill checks and saving throws), and occasionally I'll have a bowstring snap on somebody, but for the most part, my games are geared toward fast action, not nitpicky details like whether or not the Ranger is carrying extra bowstrings. Plus, you might remind the DM that magic weapons don't simply break when you miss a swing and hit floor instead of meat. Actually, most mundane weapons won't either. Snapping the blade of a well-made (not to be confused with masterwork) sword can be an exceptionally difficult thing to do. I've seen a 150-pound ROTC cadet standing on the blade of a saber suspended by nothing but other cadets holding onto the tip and pommel. I'd go along with it if I had a DM try to use this rule, but only to a point. The first time he tells me an Adamantine longsword breaks because I missed my target and hit a rock instead, I'd just get up and leave the table.
Tatsukun 01-24-05, 04:28 AM	Well, such a rule does hurt PCs (who attack a lot over the course of a campaign) more than NPCs (who usually are only around for one fight) or monsters (who can't fumble). Also, it hurts large power attackers less than two weapon fighters (who make more attacks). Personally, I don't like this system. If I take 20 commoners (+0 Melee) and have them attack 20 more commonors (AC 10) it seems odd to me that 2 or 3 will drop thier weapons or fall down every 6 seconds. -Tatsu
Somebloke 01-24-05, 04:34 AM	Shoot him. Burn the corpse over water to get rid of the sucky DMness. Seriously, while I understand this sort of rule appeals to some people, I personally do not like it. There are enough nasty variables in the equation already- this is only going to make the players feel powerless.
Ricohard_Draconis 01-24-05, 05:26 AM	we use a rule where if you fumble (natural one) then fail the check (fail an attack roll) then your weapon is either dropped or otherwise broken for the next turn. and it hits npc's as hard as it hits Pc's. For instance we just started SotLW and in the tavern scene saber breaks in and levels his crossbow and goes to fire it at the lady but the string pings off. (i rolled naturel one, natural one) this was then followed by one kobold getting his spear stuck in the floor.
Straylight 01-24-05, 05:31 AM	I don't think this is a case of bad DM so much as just inexperienced DM. As a more experienced DM, Bane, you might want to find a spot near him on the table and let him know that you're available if he needs advice or has questions. A lot of new DMs (and I was the same way) tend to misjudge the power level of the characters. Some overestimate, some underestimate. It sounds like this one is overestimating their ability in relation to the challenges he's issuing them and trying to up the difficulty artificially. Perhaps remind him that the characters are supposed to be heroes. They're supposed to be able to go above and beyond what a normal human can do, they're supposed to be powerful, talented, extraordinary individuals who have the potential to become truely great. Conan only dropped or lost his sword when it became necessary to the plot. Same with Indiana Jones and his whip. Legolas break a bowstring? Heaven forbid! (yes, I know about what his bow is, but my point stands), and it took a direct confrontation with the absolute most powerful creature in the world to shatter Narsil. Alternately, take him out into the back yard and have him try to break a broomstick. Once he succeeds (or gives up), tell him that a quarterstaff is about double that thickness of wood, and probably banded with something to help hold integrity, and that's not even getting into steel weapons. That ought to get the point across that shattering weapons isn't an easy thing to do, intentionally or not. EDIT: I have had bowstrings snap on characters, and I have had weapons shatter, but it has never been random. I always use it as a plot device to force certain tactics or to increase the tension of a situation. Legolas never missed or ran out of arrows except when it was necessary to the plot, and I do the same thing to my players. My players tend to not keep track of ammo because I usually don't worry about it, but I've had my Ranger grab for an arrow and realize she's only got two left a couple of times now. It makes a wonderful way to make the situation just that much more hectic (it usually happens when the party is being swarmed by Emerald Claw soldiers). Remember folks, this is Eberron. This is pulp action/fantasy with a dark twist. It's a game of mighty heroes and superhuman exploits, but it's also a game that's all shades of gray and where the heroes don't always get the good ending.
Targos 01-24-05, 08:59 AM	If he isn't open to the idea of removing the rule suggest dealing damage to the weapon instead of automatically breaking it. Some weapons are actually very hard to break by sundering. (Sometimes they don't even get damaged because of hardness.) Breaking mundane weapons is annoying. Breaking magic weapons is down right expensive. Remember, constructive criticism goes farther than complaints.
Streamweaver 01-24-05, 10:03 AM	One of my players decided he is ready to DM and has done fairly, however he has tried to install a rule that if the players role a 1 on a d20 to hit they then role a percentage dice. 01-10 = The weapon breaks.... 10-30 the loss of the next round of action. In the adventure we played no less than 5 (and i was thinking like 7) people including 3 players lost their weapons permanently. What do you guys think about this rule? I personally hate it, but when i bring it up to him he acts as If I am just unhappy because it is a rule that HE designed. I think it detracts from the game and the bond the players have with thier weapons. The statistics I believe are 5 in 1000. In one level of say 13 encounters I estimate that my party takes Approx 1000 swings. Therefore every level my party should break approx. 5 weapons. Please give me some feedback! With rules I usually tell people to try it out for a bit (which it looks like you've done) then if it isn't working out talk to the DM about what it is that ruins the game experince for you. Then talk to him about what he was trying to accomplish gaming wise with the rule. I used to have a rule that if you rolled a 1 on an attack roll you had to make a DC15 reflex save or drop your weapon. It thought it would add some funny fumble stories and make combat more tense, but all it really did was make things more annoying for everyone. So my advice is lay off the statistics and just get to the heart of the matter with him, what was he trying to add to the game with this rule. He may already see it's not working out like he had hoped.
ThatsDM2U 01-24-05, 11:34 AM	I actually use a set of tables for fumbles and critical hits. Fumbles are handled alot like criticals (ok, you rolled a one, now roll to confirm the fumble). MY players love these tables and one night when I couldn't find them, they made me print another set. I am unsure where they came from because a friend of mine gave me the copy, but if you would like, I could email them to you. Just send me an email at i_b_dotcom at yahoo dot com and I will send them out to you.
Magic Engineer 01-24-05, 12:01 PM	Legolas break a bowstring? Heaven forbid! (yes, I know about what his bow is, but my point stands) Well, if you watch the behind the scenes for the extended edition ROTK, Legolas' bow breaks, but its pretty funny how it pans out. My group tends to use natural 1s as automatic misses, and a threat for fumble. I just started using a table, and its pretty cool, but before that we just used common sense and decided what happened as per DM discretion. Often that works, but I remember once when my DM misunderstood me and had a prisoner i had at sword point stab me in the forhead and sever my brain lobes. Given thats almost impossible, he thought i had the blade of my sword at the guys throat, with the guy pinned to me, in reality, i had one hand reached out at full arms length over his mouth, and the other hand had my sword whose point was pricking the guy in the throat. So make sure you understand your players and your DM understands you or any fumble/critical hit table or system can bite you in the butt.
Arcane Guyver 01-24-05, 12:02 PM	...it hits npc's as hard as it hits Pc's... Yup, that's been my experience too. Probably why my players like the rule - for every time they accidentally stab their sword into the ceiling, an enemy falls prone during a charge or busts a bolt while firing a crossbow.
Rinna 01-24-05, 12:12 PM	We actually have something similar in our group. When we roll a natural one, we roll again. If our next roll would have been a success, it is deamed we just fail. If it is a failure, depending on the situation ad the die roll, our DM desides how badly you fail. (We have actually had some one roll two 1's in a row - things didn't go well with her.) However, we also have a critical success rule. Whenever we roll a natural 20, we get to roll again. Anything above a 10, the ones number gets added to our roll. This gives our characters the ability to hit something we might not ordinarily have hit. Such as something with a DC 25, but because of the charater's modifyer, she can only get as good as a 24. So on very rare momets, she can do very heroic stunts. And this goes for everyone, not jst PC's. I think this balances out. We like playing with fate, and the idea that we might fail critically is just as exciting as knowing we could succeed with greater force. Of course, to each her own. Rinna
fhilbrandt 01-24-05, 12:15 PM	The original game (AD&D v1.0) had a similar rule; you rolled a 1: you fumbled (lost the use of the weapon on the next round). DM rolled a d4: on a 1, you rolled a saving throw for the weapon vs "crushing blow" to see if you damaged your weapon. Most steel weapons, and certainly any magic ones, usually made this saving throw. Using a similar system for v3.5, on an attack roll of a 1: DM rolls a d10. On a 2-3: character loses Dex bonus for next round. On a roll of a 1: Weapon is lost to character and a new one must be readied. Damage to a weapon on a case-by-case basis, based on circumstance. Under v3.5, damage to a weapon should be limited to a sunder attack from an opponent.
Gez 01-24-05, 12:31 PM	It is a very bad rule. If he really wants to do such a thing, try to convince him to use a simpler, more streamlined system. That is: Natural 1 is a fumble threat, roll another attack to see if it confirms. If the new attack roll would fail, then it's a fumble. Otherwise, it's just a normal miss. This is better than the percentile table because it mirrors the critical hit system. If you fumble, your clumsy maneuver opens up a hole in your defense -- you provoke attacks of opportunities from enemies threatening you. This is better because it uses a mechanics that's already in place in the game -- no need to reinvent the wheel.
Gurv 01-24-05, 01:21 PM	A lot of DMs use critical fumble rules (some are mentioned above), but this one isn't very realistic. At this point, it is easier for a foe to break his own weapon than it is for me to Sunder it. Our group uses two homebrew rules to cover critical success and fumbles. 1) Any natural roll of 20 is calculated as a 30 (rather than an automatic success) and any natural roll of 1 is calculated as a -10 (rather than an automatic failure). 2) A natural roll of 1 on an attack roll (in addition to the rule above) provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the attack. As normal, this AoO can be used for any attack action. Both rules go both ways, favoring the PCs sometimes and hindering them at others. Our logic for the first rule is that automatic success and failure doesn't make much sense but random luck should play some part in events. Our logic for the second rule is that in 3e attacks of opportunity represent opponents taking advantage of openings left by suboptional tactical choices. But making a mistake shouldn't doom you. A fighter in a typical party is doomed without a weapon, barring a miracle. Spellcasters are generally unaffected. Two-weapon users are going to lose tons of weapons. Special materials are not taken into account by your description, including wooden weapons breaking as easily as steel ones.
Redbeard_Gamer 01-26-05, 07:01 PM	I use a system where a natural 1 is a fumble threat, with the character having to make a DC10 reflex save to avoid dropping their weapon. I like some of these Ideas presented here, especially the AoO ones, because my system doesn't account for natural weapons (I've got a minotaur in the party with a history of not being physically able to drop his horns). The rule that started this thread, though, is not very good.
Ithamar 01-27-05, 11:57 AM	My old DM had a rule that on a natural 1 you hit yourself. No saving throw, nothing, you simply hit yourself. So for the power-attacking raging barbarian, hitting yourself became a big problem. On more than one occasion we had players killing themselves by rolling a 1. When I took over I changed the rule to be a bit more lenient. On a role of a natural 1 you then role a d6. For melee, 1-2 means you incur an AoO from whoever you were attacking, 3-4 means there is a chance that you hit any allies that are directly adjacent (doesn't hardly ever happen as my PC's are usually spread out), 5-6 nothing happens but you cannot take any further action that round (i.e. if you get 3 attacks, roll a 1 on the second one, then you do not get your third attack that round). For ranged weapons its a little different. A roll of a 1-2 on the d6 means that your bowstring thwacks you on the arm and you take 1d4 of damage, 3-4 means you might accidentally shoot someone other than the intended target, and 5-6 is the same: no further action. But I also allow players to burn an action point to add to that natural 1 to avoid any kind of fumbling penalties.
Golbez57 01-27-05, 03:23 PM	I think this is less a "good rule, bad rule" issue and more of a "DM trying something new that isn't liked by players" situation. In that case, I'd suggest that you get the input of the other players TOGETHER with your friend/DM, and come to some type of agreement on what works for everyone. Don't try to gather opinions away from him , or there's more room for him to interpret your dissatisfaction as trying to dictate how he should run his games. If your fellow players don't mind the new rule, then you're faced with having to accept it as part of the game or (unlikely) choosing not to participate in that campaign anymore.
Arcane Guyver 01-27-05, 03:29 PM	I like the idea of a critical fumble triggering an attack of opportunity. Unfortunately, this doesn't cover what happens to someone who critically fumbles using a ranged weapon.
Phanuel 01-27-05, 05:24 PM	A finger or other appendage gets caught in the bow string? One gets clocked in the head w/ a sling? A thrown weapon flies out of the hand on the back swing (imagine the havoc w/ an orcish shotput, I've done it w/ a bowling ball). THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS!!!