Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KingNeo 11-13-05, 12:26 AM	Ok don't know if this is against the rules or anything, but if it is not against the rules please give some of your time answering a question. If it is sorry to waste your time on reading this and please ignore it. Do you think Dungeons and Dragons Online will be a great game? Not a good game, we know it will be a good game given the fact of who is making it and seeing how close Wizards of the Coast is keeping an eye on it. I mean it is a pretty big hype to live up to. Dungeons and Dragons and Eberron?! Thats something to live up to, and it will be no were near hard, more like hard to the hundred power given the complexity of D&D. But looking at the trailers and game previews I have to say it looks pretty good to me. But anyway, just want to know your opinion on it. From a fellow comrade of the mystical world of Eberron. Your magnificent king Neo
Straylight 11-13-05, 06:59 AM	Y'know, honestly, I'm not impressed by what I've seen so far. The game LOOKS good, but I have a rather strong dislike of instancing in a game, and DDO is nothing but instances. For an MMOG based on D&D, it seems to me that the devs are trying to cut out as much of the community aspect as they possibly can. If they continue with their current trend, they may as well just drop the "online" part completely and make it a single player game -they're already halfway there. If you like Guild Wars, you'll probably like DDO. As for the rest of us, well, I'm still waiting for NWN2 and DnL.
polt 11-13-05, 07:05 AM	Actually I think this game will s u c k. Turbine are making it. They made Asherons Call 2, and that game wasn't very good at all. Also, Turbine already got a fanbase. They KNOW they are going to sell a lot of games, because it says "D&D" on the box. I think Turbine will be happy with whatever little fanbase of people they'll get, and don't go for MMO-domination. They know they don't have to make THE BEST GAME OUT THERE, to get people to buy it.
Saurenda 11-13-05, 07:17 AM	As an offical Beta tester I can say one sentance that will make you hate or love it. This game is Guild wars in DnD.
Galahad_Knight 11-13-05, 07:19 AM	It looks like it will be a *pretty* game, but from what I've read off the game's on website, it's going to be crap. Read their FAQ, it's only going to have a couple PHB races, the only Eberron race you can play is warforged, the spellcasting system will be totally different, the combat will be more twitch-gamer and less skillful tactician, etc, et al. In otherwords, it's an Eberron *flavored* MMO, rather than a true online version of D&D. NWN is more faithful to the game than DDO will be, and we've all rolled our eyes from time to time at NWN players who think they know how to play D&D
polt 11-13-05, 07:27 AM	A couple of things: First, you just broke the NDA dude :D Second. I don't give a flying rat's ass about weather or not the game really IS DUNGEON & DRAGONS. I don't care what rules it uses. I don't care what classes it uses. Of course the developers had to make some changes to make D&D work as an MMORPG. The rules as it is sucks for an MMORPG. Of course they changed the spellcasting system, the spell casting system in D&D sucks. Who would play a wizard if you had to wait 8 hours to play again after using all your spells? The thing I wanted from this game, is the world of Eberron. I don't care if it's D&D or not. I'd rather have a good game, than a game that uses the D&D rules 100%. And from what I've heard, it's gonna be PvPless. So it's like Guild Wars, without PvP? Jebus :D
Jancarius 11-13-05, 08:40 AM	That was a serious question I had. How were they going to implement high level spellcasting? I expected something like NWN. Of course, I consider NWN high level spells to fail to allow for many of the cooler spell effects.
Aaron L 11-13-05, 08:49 AM	Its capped at 10th level, so no high level casting. From everything Ive seen, this game is going to blow. Bad.
KingNeo 11-13-05, 09:39 AM	Yeah I heard it caps at 10th level too, but people at the fourms think that they will add higher levels later. Also they will be no crafting, as of yet anyway, and like someone said there will be no player vs. player as of yet. Maybe they will do something like City of Heroes and City of Villians, allowing you to kill players later, but I don't know. No exploring as of yet, but seeing that it is just beginning, I can see them adding this later. Hopefully it will not be a game that uses the D&D title to make itself look good because that would suck bad. Oh yeah and for the stupid like myself that don't what NWN stands for can you give me a hint?
FenrysStar 11-13-05, 10:05 AM	Never Winter Nights a big FR oriented game made by the same geniuses that did Jade Empire for XBox and whose name escapes me now
pseudonym 11-13-05, 10:06 AM	Oh yeah and for the stupid like myself that don't what NWN stands for can you give me a hint? Neverwinter Nights,
Pinky's brain 11-13-05, 10:37 AM	Who would play a wizard if you had to wait 8 hours to play again after using all your spells?In a game with only instances 8 hours can be 5 seconds real time, just like in PnP. I think the game lacks direction ... they don't want to shoot for the 3.5e crowd who like the rules as they are, and they don't want to shoot for the traditional MMORPG crowd who dislike having only instances either. Sure with the action oriented gameplay they are trying to create their own niche, but ignoring their 2 biggest potential fan bases to get there seems to me to be a risky venture. Finally the graphics aren't all that either (in-door scenery is good, but characters and terrain are low poly). I dunno if it will be a good game or not, but I don't think it will be wildly popular. PS. oh, and tumbling is going to be kiting all over again for sure.
Joni-san 11-13-05, 11:02 AM	From what I've seen it's going to be good. Sure, there are a few things I don't like, but as a whole it looks good. :) Oh, if I only had the chanse to play it... :allalone:
lugnut71 11-13-05, 12:02 PM	Yeah I think I'm going to wait and see what it is like when it comes out.
Draco_Guardian 11-13-05, 01:16 PM	Given all that has been said I am no longer looking foreward to this game I would love a NWN style game with Eberron as the setting.
polt 11-13-05, 01:18 PM	Given all that has been said I am no longer looking foreward to this game I would love a NWN style game with Eberron as the setting. That's why I'm looking forward to NWN. So I can make an Eberron mod :D
Draco_Guardian 11-13-05, 01:34 PM	Eberron mod sweet that would be cool
Straylight 11-13-05, 04:17 PM	Well, in the meantime, those of us who still have NWN installed can check out <shameless_plug> www.pixelscapes.com/penultima </shameless_plug> for some slightly off-the-wall fantasy adventuring. It might not be Eberron, but it's damn funny.
Galahad_Knight 11-13-05, 06:30 PM	I can see the "So what if it doesn't use D&D rules?" point, but how *eberron* can you get if you can't be Shifters, Changelings, Kalashtar, Half-elves, Gnomes, Half-orcs, Druids, Monks, Psions, Soulknives, Psychic Warriors or Artificers, and you can't make magic items? Sure, it can use all new rules and just copy all the D&D/Eberron flavor and be a fine game. But they're not even doing *that* What kind of Eberron campaign has no place for an Artificer? Especially one involving the ancient ruins of xen'drik? No Changeling Rogues? No Shifter Barbarians? Translation LAME
zambuka 11-13-05, 07:43 PM	As an offical Beta tester I can say one sentance that will make you hate or love it. This game is Guild wars in DnD. I won't say I hate guild wars. It has some nice potential. It did however bore me to tears. It was dull, uninspirational, the pretty graphics did not really make up for the lack of game play. My house mate, who gets into and tries to finish games regardless of how bad they are, pretty much gave up after a couple of days. A MMORPG should be just that, massive multiplayer. Things like Guild Wars take away the massive aspect leaving you with something that may as well be just another Quake, just using fantasy stuff, spells, fantastic creatures and various weapons.
stembolt 11-13-05, 08:43 PM	Having seen the game at GenCon and talked to the developers I am optimistic. The basic summary can be made this way: If you like Everquest you will not like DnD online. If you hate Everquest, give DnD online a trip.
Straylight 11-14-05, 03:56 AM	That isn't a very good summary, though, stembolt. What if I like some aspects of EQ and dislike others? I don't like instancing, but I don't like how crowded parts of some games are either. I like PvP, but not Lineage-style unrestricted PvP. I like skill-based rather than equipment-based power advancement, but I want good equipment to make a difference in a fight. I like FPS-style movement, but not targeting and attacking. Guild Wars (and WoW and CoH/V to a lesser extent) has always struck me as relying too heavily on instances. On one hand, it helps keep lag down and eliminates the possibility of getting ganked or otherwise hassled while you're out adventuring, but it also eliminates the possibility of chance encounters with other players -and some of my favorite memories from games were chance encounters (like that one night in Brill...). If everyone is in their own private slice of the server all the time, what happens to the community that is so integral to success in an MMO?
FenrysStar 11-14-05, 05:46 AM	After looking at the web page, I already made up my own mind that I was not going to buying this. I'll wait till they make an Eberron game where you can play a shifter.
Joni-san 11-14-05, 09:24 AM	I can see the "So what if it doesn't use D&D rules?" point, but how *eberron* can you get if you can't be Shifters, Changelings, Kalashtar, Half-elves, Gnomes, Half-orcs, Druids, Monks, Psions, Soulknives, Psychic Warriors or Artificers, and you can't make magic items? Sure, it can use all new rules and just copy all the D&D/Eberron flavor and be a fine game. But they're not even doing *that* What kind of Eberron campaign has no place for an Artificer? Especially one involving the ancient ruins of xen'drik? No Changeling Rogues? No Shifter Barbarians? Translation LAME The reasons why some of the races and classes are missing are many, but I'll list the biggest ones. For the Monk, Druid, Changeling and Shifter it's a question of animations and abilities. The Monk needs a bucketload of unique animations for all the Martial Arts moves and special abilities. Not to mention that Grappling is a ***** to animate. The Druid and the Shifter both require animations for Shifting and Wild shape. You could do Wild shape with a *Poof* cloud, but would that satisfy you? The Changeling also needs a *blank* face animation or a very complex shifting animation. In addition to this the Changelings abilities are not MMO friendly. The Gnomes and the two Half races are out because of Budgetary and Time constraints. You can only get in so much content in so little time. Add in too much content and it suffers overall. Kalashtar are in because of a similar reason. Adding in psionics now would overwork the Devs and the quality of the work would suffer. In addition to this if a game is too long in development, interest drops, tech gets too old and final sales will not cover the costs of making the game. Would you wait for 2009? Crafting: There are wast differences between standard MMO crafting and PnP crafting. They have to plan to make a balanced system that works in an MMO. What Turbine is telling us is that they are trying to concentrate on the core elements of D&D and bring that to the game. In addition to this they aren't trying to be PnP Online or the MMO +1 Besides, they've promised to bring the missing content in updates, and Turbine has a history of adding many new things in their updates. Or maybe we have been DECEPTIONED!!!11 :P
Pinky's brain 11-14-05, 10:46 AM	Promised is a big word.
Chiyo 11-14-05, 11:34 AM	Been playing the beta for a week now and I like it. The instancing is VERY nice. It feels like the pen and paper version. You're there with your group and that's it. No jerk interference to spoil your dungeon crawl. You interact with NPCs on your own terms just like at the table, everything is between the DM and players. How would you like the pizza guy to invite himself in with his level 108 super paladin to ruin your game? The dynamics are usually, you hang out in the non-instanced world doing your own thing for a little bit. Some quests can be soloed so you may wrap up some. Then, usually you end up putting yourself on LFG to tackle the more interesting/chalenging instances. You form a group and that kinda becomes your PnP buddies for the time you're doing the instance. So there is chance meeting in that groups often randomly form (when not in guild or when your best buddies aren't on). There is still some interaction, especially at taverns. But it's true that most of the time you'll spend it with 5 other players in an instance. But instances are usually not that long affairs at least the ones I've been in. You can be in and out between 15 min and 2 hours after which you get back to the non-instanced world and can interact with others again. I don't know. I like instancing vs crowded places and fighting over camps so I'm biased. It has a good D&D feel that separates it from other products. Game is also setup very close to D&D core rules overall with a few departures not hurting things at all and mostly based on MMORPG game format requirements. Is it the next great game? I don't know. I'm still interested in playing more of it after a week or so. Haven't sampled the end game at all so it's hard to tell about the long term viability but it's good enough for me right now (which is more than I can say about WoW and its boring end game). I kinda miss the PvP but at least they're not trying to pretend it's there (like WoW does as alternate tool for gear gathering treadmill). It'd be nice if some instances in the end had two groups go against each other though. P.S.: there is a strict NDA so I can only be vague in comments about the beta and current features
AlricLightwind 11-14-05, 01:16 PM	For anyone with a subscription to Fileplanet, they are passing out keys for the Stress Test. Don't know how long the window will be open, but it'll be open till Wendsday at least. I've already signed up for mine.
Galahad_Knight 11-14-05, 05:44 PM	I realize that there are very good reasons why these things weren't included. But I don't care. All I care about is that they're not there. I'm not saying turbine is deliberately making a crappy product because they don't care. I'm just saying the game is not going to have what a lot of people, including myself, want. So for a lot of people, including myself, it will suck. I would rather wait for a good game then have a bad game right now Especially if I have to pay for that bad game every single month while I wait for it to get good.
Majorafire77 11-14-05, 08:15 PM	I'm not getting it... There are simply too many good games coming out (or games that have already come out) for the game systems I have for me to really care about MMOs. The only thing this game has going for it is that it's set in Eberron, which would be enough for me to get it if it weren't for the other great games out there that are waiting for me to buy them.
stembolt 11-14-05, 08:25 PM	That isn't a very good summary, though, stembolt. What if I like some aspects of EQ and dislike others? In all honesty the way the instancing works is one of the major reasons why I like the game. I played EQ for three weeks and had several things that I hated about the world (I won’t bore you with the list, it is the standard gripe list). I would never pay money for any game like EQ ever. WoW, for example, won’t get a dime out of me. DnD online, on the other hand, had a big list of problems that they were focusing on. The problems were my entire list of gripes. So I am a little biased now. As for the list of concerns from people on this thread most of them are inconsequential. Who cares that there is no monk or druid? 2 classes out of how many are missing? Ditto with races. Psionics not included? That means one of the three major magic systems is missing. As it stands DnD online has much greater complexity than EQ or WoW. Classes and races are actually different from each other and you have more options between them all. In fact the classes can actually result in several types of build. As it stands Dnd online is simply in a class of its own. You can say “it is missing ___” but you only know about that from pen and paper. You could easily say WoW is missing shifters and changelings. Or that EQ does not have druids and monks right.
Majorafire77 11-14-05, 08:33 PM	Psionics not included? That means one of the three major magic systems is missing. Two of the three, I see no Incarnum here. As it stands Dnd online is simply in a class of its own. You can say “it is missing ___” but you only know about that from pen and paper. You could easily say WoW is missing shifters and changelings. Or that EQ does not have druids and monks right. You bring up a really good point, but if the develpers wanted it to be that then they shouldn't have put it in a D&D setting with D&D in the title. By putting D&D there they attempted to allude to the good times that people had playing D&D over the years. When half the stuff that people had fun with in D&D simply isn't there, there's a problem. WoW and EQ weren't aiming to be like D&D, so saying that there are no shifters or changelings in there is kind of pointless.
stembolt 11-14-05, 08:41 PM	Two of the three, I see no Incarnum here a) incarnum is by no means major. b) Even if it were that would be 2 out of 4 than. You bring up a really good point, but if the develpers wanted it to be that then they shouldn't have put it in a D&D setting with D&D in the title. That argument is completely fallacious. You could go a step further in that the game must comply to every aspect of the tabletop experience. Or you could say since it does not have every monster in the MM it is lacking. Or given that it is missing the rules based on community size or since it does not have every spell or…well you get the idea. The game contains an interpretation of DnD with as much content as they could include.
zambuka 11-14-05, 08:49 PM	Been playing the beta for a week now and I like it. The instancing is VERY nice. It feels like the pen and paper version. You're there with your group and that's it. No jerk interference to spoil your dungeon crawl. You interact with NPCs on your own terms just like at the table, everything is between the DM and players. you can go too far with instancing. If everything in the world is instanced (like in Guild Wars) then it really becomes no different from playing something like NWN. You can play NWN online, you can PvP, have arena fights etc etc etc I personally like the way WoW does it. A large open world where everyone can run around and interact, questing, grinding and whatever. Sure you are going to have to deal with the jerks of the game. On the other hand some of the best in-game friends and experiences I have had have been where I saved some stranger's butt or they saved mine. You don't get that bit of interaction when everything is instanced and only your party can do an area. WoW also has instances, these are the big dungeons where really want to go with just a few friends without interference from the pizza boy and his paladin. That said, I wil go out and give DDO a try. Just because it's DDO.
stembolt 11-14-05, 09:00 PM	you can go too far with instancing. If everything in the world is instanced (like in Guild Wars) then it really becomes no different from playing something like NWN. You can play NWN online, you can PvP, have arena fights etc etc etc While that is true, instancing also has some charms unavailable without it. Quests are just waiting for you to show up, the enemies can be positioned in clever logical ways, no one is going to blaze through and ruin your adventure are just a few examples. I advise people to give it a chance. I love FPS games but I played Quake once and literally never touched it again because of the controller config. I think people should just give the game a chance and look at it based on its own merits.
LaoKhanWei 11-14-05, 09:15 PM	Will it be good? Who knows! It's set in Eberron, that's good, since Eberron is awesome! It's loosely following the D&D rules, this could be good or bad. At least it'll be interesting. It's being developed by Turbine....I'm not a terribly big fan of that company... The more action oriented gameplay is good, I'm looking forward to seeing how well they'll handle this. I'm totally unimpressed by the graphics. They look nothing like the Eberron I know. Eberron needs a very stylized, renaissance look to it. What i've seen so far looks like very generic medieval D&D.
Majorafire77 11-14-05, 09:51 PM	a) incarnum is by no means major. b) Even if it were that would be 2 out of 4 than. The 4? Regular magic, psionics, incarnum, and what? You can't really say that arcane and divine are two seperate systems imo. That argument is completely fallacious. It's better than your argument saying that people have just as much a right to whine about an Eberron game not having Eberron things as they do about a Warcraft game not having Eberron things. Don't you agree that a game that is supposed to highlight what makes Eberron so great should at least include the defining things that makes Eberron different from, say, FR? You could go a step further in that the game must comply to every aspect of the tabletop experience. Or you could say since it does not have every monster in the MM it is lacking. Or given that it is missing the rules based on community size or since it does not have every spell or…well you get the idea. First of all, EVERYONE knows that's impossible. The thing is that the majority of the MM monsters don't define D&D the way that Shifters and other key things that were left out define Eberron. I'm sure there are more people who think of Shifters when they think of Eberron then there are people who think of Xorn when they think of D&D. They should've focused on the defining aspects rather than neglecting them. I know that I can only say that the game is missing something because of PnP experiences. However, my PnP experiences are part of what they're counting on when they try to sell me this game; they should at least include the stuff that helped my D&D experiences become as memorable as they are. The game contains an interpretation of DnD with as much content as they could include. I know, but they left out some key things and probably added some things that didn't need to be there. It's an interpretation that I (and apparantly some others) don't agree with.
stembolt 11-14-05, 10:44 PM	The 4? Regular magic, psionics, incarnum, and what? You can't really say that arcane and divine are two seperate systems imo. Well I mean either Arcane/Divine or Vancian/Spontaneous. As for Arcane/Divine They both have differing rules as to how they work and have different ideological groupings of spells. They are more different than the different spellgroups of any MM game I have seen. Don't you agree that a game that is supposed to highlight what makes Eberron so great should at least include the defining things that makes Eberron different from, say, FR? First off in order to highlight the difference between Eberron and FR the only thing it needs to do is not suck. For differences Eberron is different in ways much more complex than adding a few races. (In an FR game in order to remain true to the setting the PCs would need to be constantly saved by Elminster, Harpers or direct deific action.) Religion, Tone, World and characters place in the world is much more important than playing shifters. First of all, EVERYONE knows that's impossible. The thing is that the majority of the MM monsters don't define D&D the way that Shifters and other key things that were left out define Eberron. I was illustrating that the line could always be pushed back. Can you have DnD without trolls or beholders or inevitables? Yes you can, even though they are part and parcel the DnD experience you cannot put everything into the game. I know, but they left out some key things and probably added some things that didn't need to be there. It's an interpretation that I (and apparantly some others) don't agree with. That is the case with any interpretation ever. Remember a computer game can never completely equal a pen and paper game. So you are faced with an approximation or reinterpretation. Personally I'm getting it as soon as the comercial version is out. If anyone wants to know specifics then I (and others) will answer any questions. So if you are unsure I would wait for the real reviews.
zambuka 11-14-05, 11:46 PM	While that is true, instancing also has some charms unavailable without it. Quests are just waiting for you to show up, the enemies can be positioned in clever logical ways, no one is going to blaze through and ruin your adventure are just a few examples. That is true. But when everything is an instance then you lose a lot of the advantages and enjoyment that the Massive Multiplayer part that a MMoRPG game can give you. You can go too far either way. GW takes the idea of instancing just too far IMO and loses so much of what it could have been. It forces you to follow a pretty straight path through its adventures leaving you with little replayable variation when you go back later (O gee whizz, I get to do the same quests for the next 10 levels with a different character, at least WoW has a number of different starting areas and hundreds of starting quests). A good mix of large areas where a lot of people can go adventuring and interact is nice and then you leave the really heavy dungeon crawling or serious questing to instances. If you only have a large open common adventuring ground then it really isn't going to be that great since you will get campers harvesting the big quest creatures all day long. A good mix is important. I will try this game, but if it does seriously follow the GW model then it is unlikely to keep my attention because it will be nothing more than a monthly subscribed version of NWN. I love NWN and still play occasionally but I wouldn't pay a monthly sub for it. One thing I hope they do address before going live is the problem of Gold Farmers.
Galahad_Knight 11-15-05, 01:43 AM	My point, is that the game is meant to represent both D&D and Eberron. Saying "EQ doesn't have shifters" is retarded because EQ isn;t trying to be EBERRON. This game IS trying to be eberron. And it FAILS at doing so. Artificers, Druids, Psionics, Shifters, Changelings, Kalashtar, Half-elves, Gnomes, item crafting (and to a lesser extent, half-orcs and monks) are all very important to what eberron is ABOUT. Eberron without the things that make eberron special is just watered-down FR with robots. I'm sure the game itself will be fine and playable. But it WON'T be D&D, and it WON'T be Eberron. And therefre, it is NOT what I want to play. I don't care why these things are not included. I especially don't care how trivial *you* think they are. I *do* care that they are absent. The game just isn't what I want. And I highly doubt that it ever will be.
Chiyo 11-15-05, 10:08 AM	I don't know. It IS D&D in the same sense that NWN is from my experience. As far as being Eberron, well it may not have every Eberron feature but it does have some. Warforged obviously but I'm more talking about the flavor of the world. I don't care if it has psionics, shifters or whatever. At the end of the day, it's still fun to play and it's definitely D&D. I know I'm depressed when I get home and the servers are down so that's a good clue that the game is fun for me. Don't know if it'll have wide appeal but I'm pretty sure some D&D gamers will like it ;) As far as instancing, you still get chance meetings via the looking for group system but it's true that it's not like in WoW since AFAIK there isn't any combat in non-instanced areas (up to the lvl 4 content I've seen). That's ok though. Half of the people you meet in WoW are hmmm how to say this nicely, well you'd rather not play the same game as they do. The other half, well you'll pick them up to do this or that dungeon, think they're cool and invite them to your guild or keep them on your friend list so you know when they're around. Instancing or not, you'll still meet people, just not while you're in the midst of battle. It's a matter of preference probably there but even though none of my guildies or RL friends got in yet, I've met a lot of people already and added a few to my friend list so I don't see this as that restricting my chance of meeting cool people. Other advantage of instancing from devs perspective - which is setup the same in WoW - is that the best content in terms of cleverness and challenge and interesting tricks, is setup for a specific challenge level. You can zerg instances to trivialize them. You get in with at most 6 people and that's it. That enables devs to make challenging encounters that won't need to be scalable or dynamic (thus much easier to design). For the players, it means that you can't shortchange yourself by bringing too large a force and basically have half of the group afk or watching TV because it's way too easy. WoW started their instances without those restriction on group sizes and soon enough put them in so that content is of a reasonable challenge level for the groups it's designed to cater to. And like someone said, no waiting for repop, no camping/kill stealing of rare NPCs, etc ... definitely saves some hassle and frustration for both players and CSR. As far as gold farming goes, I don't think it's too well prepared for it right now although the lack of real auction block (so far-it's beta after all), would make it more difficult. But some other features in it kinda make me think it'd be very doable. Especially thinking about groups of farmers, doing instances over and over for magic gear drops and selling those. It's a good point to bring up at this stage in beta where they can plan against it but I don't think the issue's been tackled yet unfortunately. That said, gold isn't that rare. I don't see myself at this point (Level 4) buying gold. Maybe gear but again, not a big need to do so to remain competitive.
zambuka 11-15-05, 07:11 PM	The races do not make the flavour of Eberron. You can have a perfectly good Eberron feeling game without the party ever seeing shifters, changelings, kalashtar or even a warforged. What makes Eberron Eberron is the pulpy feel, the more cosmopoliton and civilised way enemies behave, the ancient history that extends beyond even lingering dreams. Ancient ruins and lost civilisations, early industrial culture, post war paranoia and colonialist type explorations also contribute to the flavour. When you get down to it you can have a perfectly good Eberron experienc using only humans and restricting classes to mage, cleric, fighter and rogue. That's ok though. Half of the people you meet in WoW are hmmm how to say this nicely, well you'd rather not play the same game as they do. The other half, well you'll pick them up to do this or that dungeon, think they're cool and invite them to your guild or keep them on your friend list so you know when they're around. That's true... if all you do is go to the PvP servers. I play on an RP server and the jerks are easy to avoid, sometimes you need to go out of your way to find them. With over 3 million active accounts however you are bound to get the twits and halfwits. DDO will have its share of them, just like any other massive online game. Remember, you are currently only playing the beta with a limited pool of people. The uninstanced play areas give you a good testing ground to find the idiots and jerks before you join with them on the more important and rewarding instanced dungeons. You can drop a bad player without having to go reset the dungeon you are crawling through. Also don't underestimate how much these open adventure areas can add to a game. The one thing that captured me early on was the first time I caught one of the flight paths. Flying over an open adventure area and watching another group as they chased down some random mob through the snows of Dun Morogh made the game truly come alive. Good scripting can be done in and out of instances and there are ways to make the game so people can't come along and steal your kills and take your hard earned loot. Ambushes are doable, odd events, etc so-on and so-forth. WoW is still in development and we are starting to see these things. As far as gold farming goes, I don't think it's too well prepared for it right now although the lack of real auction block (so far-it's beta after all), would make it more difficult. But some other features in it kinda make me think it'd be very doable. Lack of an auction block won't stop them. If there is any trade at all then the farmers will get in there and farm. This can seriously ruin the economy of a server making rare items passe, not to mention ruin the experience for a lot of people. If you have ever gotten in game spam then you know what I mean.
stembolt 11-15-05, 07:44 PM	I'm sure the game itself will be fine and playable. But it WON'T be D&D, and it WON'T be Eberron. And therefre, it is NOT what I want to play. Again you are simply wrong. It will be Eberron and it will be DnD. Just because a game lacks some specific elements, does not mean it lacks key elements. (as a side note I am not actually talking to GK, though he can answer me if he wants. I am talking to anyone who might see his comments and think they have any sort of validity. I already know that GK does not listen to fact or reason.) One could make the argument that a FR game is not correct if you cannot play a Harper, or does not contain Elminster or references to Purple Dragon Knights. (this argument is the parallel of the argument above) As far as gold farming goes, I don't think it's too well prepared for it right now although the lack of real auction block (so far-it's beta after all), would make it more difficult. I recall the game developers having an answer to this but I cannot remember what it was.
Galahad_Knight 11-15-05, 10:47 PM	Again you are simply wrong. It will be Eberron and it will be DnD. Just because a game lacks some specific elements, does not mean it lacks key elements. Except for the part where it lacks key elements. Three quarters of the unique character races, the only unique character class, a third of the core races, a quarter of the core classes, and a third of the magic system (well, the entire actual magic system, but a third of the main branches) are ABSENT. That is a large chunk of what makes up D&D, and it's almost all of what makes eberron special, from a mechanical perspective, as well as from a player's. I want to play a Shifter Druid. I want to play a Warforged Artificer. I can't. Therefore I do not want to play this game. And the same goes for anyone else who actually wants to play *most* of the uniquely eberron character options normally available. What's the point of even pretending it's eberron if the only vestages are warforged and an entirely unexplored, unwritten continent? You could have just as easily put the exact same game into any other D&D setting and just dropped the warforged. Though I suppose they wouldn;t be able to cash in as well without the Eberron name. [quote](as a side note I am not actually talking to GK, though he can answer me if he wants. I am talking to anyone who might see his comments and think they have any sort of validity. I already know that GK does not listen to fact or reason.) Actually, I'm on quite good terms with fact and reason. It's just you I don't listen to. Perhaps someday when you meet fact and reaon, and become familiar with their works, you'll realize that ignorance and pomposity are not the same. One could make the argument that a FR game is not correct if you cannot play a Harper, or does not contain Elminster or references to Purple Dragon Knights. (this argument is the parallel of the argument above) Actually the phrase you're looking for isn't 'parallel' but 'absurdly tangental' Perhaps if you tried comparing apples to apples instead of apples to orangutans you'd manage to actually illustrate a point, rather than the afforementioned close relationship you share with said ignorance and pomposity. You could argue that an FR game was not correct if you could not play wizards, clerics and paladins (Were talking key *core* classes here, not PrCs related to organizations which may or may not even be present in a normal campaign), couldn't play any of the signature subraces (heck, just eleminate elves, dwarves and gnomes), couldn't cast divine magic (psionics being equally as important to the eberron setting as divine magic is to FR), and you set it in a completely unknown, unmapped and generally unrecognizable piece of Faerun, far away from the lands detailed in any of the source material, away from the events of the novels, and the recorded history of the setting. And you would be correct in that arguement. And THAT arguement is the direct paralell of my above post. I'll concede that the game itself may play fine and actually be a fun game if you pretend it has nothing to do with Eberron (which isn't hard, considering all they bothered to include was warforged and a continent whose name may as well be Blankslate). But it'll take much more than stembolt's trademark attitude and transparent strawman tactics to convince me of anything, much less that it's going to be the type of game I (or anyone else who wants to do more with the Eberron they so craciously left in than be a warforged fighter) want to play.
LaoKhanWei 11-16-05, 02:48 AM	Isn't Galahad_Knight simply saying the game doesn't interest him and stating why? Is someone actually trying to say he doesn't have good grounding for being uninsterested? Is that even required? He's not interested, end of story!
Count Arioch the 28th 11-16-05, 05:59 AM	Yeah, this argument is lame. GK: "I'm not interested in this game, and here's why: <reason reason reason> Stembolt: "You shoudl like it anyway! You'll like what I tell you to like, and like it!"
Siran Dunmorgan 11-16-05, 12:50 PM	Again you are simply wrong. It will be Eberron and it will be DnD. Just because a game lacks some specific elements, does not mean it lacks key elements. Except for the part where it lacks key elements. Three quarters of the unique character races, the only unique character class, a third of the core races, a quarter of the core classes, and a third of the magic system (well, the entire actual magic system, but a third of the main branches) are ABSENT. That is a large chunk of what makes up D&D, and it's almost all of what makes eberron special, from a mechanical perspective, as well as from a player's. But it'll take much more than stembolt's trademark attitude and transparent strawman tactics to convince me of anything, much less that it's going to be the type of game I (or anyone else who wants to do more with the Eberron they so craciously left in than be a warforged fighter) want to play. I. Technical Issues From the little I've seen of the game, Turbine's designers seem to have at least attempted to put in as much of Eberron as feasible, while still leaving their options open. I can easily understand—from a technical perspective—why certain decisions were made. For instance, druids are hard to implement well in a computer game, particularly with respect to the wildshape class feature, unless you, as the development company, have resources to spend on developing that one class to the exclusion of others. The same problem exists with respect to shifters and changelings, as player races: shapeshifting is hard to do properly in a computer game setting. Kalashtar, of course, are pointless unless one is also including psionics. With respect to core player races, gnomes are—again, from an engineering perspective—redundant against halflings, and half-orcs simply aren't popular, even in paper-and-pencil; certainly not enough to warrant the time and resources necessary to develop them in terms of modeling and design. Artificers were not included primarily because they're regarded as a "crafting" class, and—quite frankly—there's no player crafting in the game, either. II. Player and Non-Player Options Now, that's not to say that none of these elements are in the game: I expect to see non-player gnomes, shifters, and changelings, and non-player druids and artificers, for that matter. An example of this that's easily verifiable from the published screenshots is the presence of the dragonmarked Houses: the "view of the market" screenshots suggest the presence of several House enclaves in Stormreach, as one would expect—including several airships parked over the Lyrandar enclave. However, dragonmarks are not apparently available to players. Despite this, it's clear that one goes to Jorasco for healing, or to Cannith for equipment, or to Orien and Lyrandar for transportation. I haven't seen anything to verify this, but I would be astonished if at least some missions—or quests, or whatever they call them—did not involve House Tharashk and recovery of Siberys shards after a Fall. From interviews that I have read with the designers, House politics will be a significant part of several long-running background plots. Again, this despite the fact that players cannot themselves be dragonmarked. III. The Debate Now, all that said, I can understand Galahad Knight's position: there are certain things that he wants from an Eberron setting, and this game doesn't provide them, so he won't play. That's perfectly reasonable, and perfectly acceptable. Where I take umbrage with his position is in his assertion that the game is not Eberron and is not Dungeons & Dragons, based on his reply to stembolt. There are two approaches that I can take to refuting this assertion, one rather trite, and one more in-depth. The trite approach states that legally, Dungeons & Dragons Online®: Stormreach is Dungeons & Dragons, and is Eberron, because it contains product identity for both of these trademarks licensed from Hasbro Properties Group, i.e., it's legally defined as Dungeons & Dragons, and Eberron. IV. Media Shifting The more in-depth approach notes that things change to meet the needs of different media, whether from paper-and-pencil rôle-playing game to novel, or to computer game. Certainly, there are elements of the player experience present in the paper-and-pencil game that are absent from this computer game. They are not, as noted above, necessarily absent from the setting: the game will almost certainly include elements—e.g. dragonmarks—that are unavailable to players. It will include elements—e.g. spell-points—that differ in significant ways from the core Dungeons & Dragons rules. But this is a media shift. Claiming that the game is not Eberron because it does not include—for example—playable shifter druids is similar to claiming that Keith Baker's novel City of Towers isn't Eberron because it doesn't mention the Order of the Emerald Claw.[1] There's a better case for claiming that it's not Dungeons & Dragons. And, if one defines Dungeons & Dragons as the paper-and-pencil rôle-playing game, then no, it's not, and can't be, because it's a computer game. It'll never have the options available to paper-and-pencil players, because the paper-and-pencil version is limited principally by imagination, and not by the time and effort required to implement computer models and animations. On the other hand, if one defines Dungeons & Dragons as the complex of product identity, rules, narratives, and other cultural accretions that it actually appears to be, then, yes: it's recognizably Dungeons & Dragons, albeit with Unearthed Arcana spell-points, rather than the core spell preparation system. V. Conclusion Now, all that said, I know very little of how the game is actually implemented. I've read the articles, and I've looked at the published screenshots, and it looks like Eberron: the decorative motifs, the House enclaves and other bits and pieces of Stormreach look, while not exactly the way I'd envisioned them, at least recognizable. I don't know yet if it's the sort of game that I'd subscribe to, but I'm willing—at this stage—to give it the benefit of the doubt. —Siran Dunmorgan Footnotes [1] Not to put too fine a point on it, but City of Towers doesn't mention shifter druids or warforged artificers, either; is it therefore not an Eberron novel?
Chiyo 11-16-05, 03:43 PM	I recall the game developers having an answer to this but I cannot remember what it was. Yes they have a feature to curb this practice. You know what it is if you look at the directed discussion on beta forums. But it'd take too much discussing of things covered by the NDA and still currently in a state of flux to cover the issue. I'm not thrilled with the current state of things (economy, player-driven market) but I'd have to admit that it should make it a bit harder to farm gold for $$$ in DDO than in WoW, EQ and others. And since the issue is very much being debated, chances are it could end in a fairly satisfactory place overall. Sorry to remain vague ;) As far as being D&D and being Eberron, it's a game based on the D&D rules with an Eberron backdrop. It doesn't mean it'll have every feature of every book published, nor that it'll have published features always exactly as the RAW state. Ok so heal spells are range spells instead of touch and AE spells don't hit friendlies (note: those features could change too). The game has limitations and departures from the RAW. Those are usually design decisions which are compromises required to have the game actually happen and have a shot at being profitable this century. In the examples I gave, this is bowing down to the MMORPG media and real time action instead of turn based PnP combat. Within those limitations however. I actually found that they try real hard to stay within the spirit of D&D rules in the context of the media. Like all games, it probably won't please everyone. But I just think it's a bit silly to shoot it down this early. But hey, to each their own. ;)
ORC_Tuhteth 11-16-05, 05:34 PM	Play nice. My Rancor is hungry. :)
Zook Sparklegem 11-16-05, 05:42 PM	Play nice. My Rancor is hungry. :) haha!! :P
Shurijo 11-16-05, 08:26 PM	I think people take the instancing too far in their hatred of it. Tabletop D&D is all about instancing. How many times has your PnP party been in a dungeon when you get a knock at your door and 5 other guys walk in and say “Hey, we were in the dungeon first!” Then you look around and there’s another guy in your kitchen asking for a Mountain Dew and stating that he’s getting drunk. :) How many pnp campaigns center around finding 5 cat paws by killing 15 rats in the fields outside the castle alongside 100 NPCs who are also killing rats? How many times has your DM made you carry a note from a vendor in the town square to another NPC on the other side of town (without plot twists or combat, etc.)? Typical MMORPGs quests and DnD PnP quests don’t line up exactly, so I think we should give the developers a little leeway in the quest area. This game is not meant to replace tabletop gaming and there may never be a MMORPG that will be able to replace tabletop gaming. As far lack of content, as any developer would do, they need to get as much as possible (without degrading their product) out the door at launch. When the box sales begin to return some revenue, then the development team can start working on other content to add in later. Right now, I’m sure the publisher and money-men want to get the game out and get some profits rolling before adding more content. Once the mechanics of the game and the bugs are worked out, then they can add more content. The more content there at launch means a longer debugging time, which means delayed profit. Everyone (even book publishers) have deadlines and budgets. There are still a bunch of races and classes (you can multiclass too) in the game. But if you don’t like it then that’s okay, but if you want to try it then buy it and use the free 30 day trial to test it out (I’m assuming the trial will be there, just like the other MMOs).
KingNeo 11-18-05, 01:11 AM	Yeah have not been checking the threads lately. Sorry about that. Anyway saw the arguments and such, and this is what I have to say. Yeah I can see the producers of DDO not putting in crafting, taking out the Artificer. Not including the changling and shifter, which just took out many good aspects of it, and taking out druids and monks also. I can even see them taking out psionics, taking out the Kalashtar. What do you get with all this gone? Not Eberron, because that is what Eberron is all about, or not at least all of Eberron. These people must lay the foundation to create a greater Empire which is Eberron, and because of how complex Dungeons and Dragons is to reverse engineer to video games I can see them making one step at a time. Now I know these people will make more additions to DDO, because if they did not people would lose interest in DDO very quick. These additions will probably come in the form of expansion packs, just like how we get new rule books for greater gameplay. So one step at a time, and hopefully they will create a game we can be proud of, as well as the creators of Dungeons and Dragons and most importantly Keith. Because if they mess this up who do you think they will hurt the most? On another issue, about not being able to explore. Yeah, I know it sucks. I want to be able to explore too. But this being D&D and Eberron I do not want them making any mistakes, so I can deal with this, for now anyway, and we can get new locations and exploration later. Now PvP lets be honest. We would abuse that, or at least some of us would at some point in time. We know we would love to do this, so we can expect that it will be added, simply for the fact that it will allow them to get more money. So thats all I got for now. See yah later. And good day.