Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WayneTheGame 09-05-05, 07:17 AM	Player brought this up to me yesterday.. if you play a Warforged Fighter, you technically get screwed out of three feats since you can't wear armor (well, without taking Unarmored body) and a Fighter gets all three armor proficiencies for free. I understand that it was done for game balance (he thinks those reasons are a "cop out", however... same like game balance issues why there arent four-armed warforged) but he's asking me if he can have extra feats since he can't use the ones he would normally get (he plans to take Adamantine Body). I haven't given him an answer yet, but I was thinking of allowing him one bonus feat since he does make a somewhat valid point... Of course I think he's just upset that he can't make a super uber badass WF weapon of mass destruction... has anyone else ever had to deal with something like this, and if so how did you handle it? I'm trying to avoid making a lot of house rules for my game.. I want to keep it pretty much standard 3.5 rules... Thanks for the advice!
fuindordm 09-05-05, 07:30 AM	Heck no! Would you grant a fighter/wizard bonus feats because they're never going to use their armor proficiencies? Taking a class is a package deal. And the difference between one armor proficiency and three armor proficiencies is slight--which category of armor you decide to wear depends entirely on your Str and Dex scores, not so much on your race and class, and the various categories of armor are roughly equivalent if you have the stats to take advantage of them. Just point to the long, long list of immunities he gets by being a warforged and tell him that it he wants the feats, he's welcome to play a human instead. With that said, you might also suggest that he look into the 'Thug' class variant from Unearthed Arcana, which gives only light armor proficiency and a more interesting set of urban class skills... I think their weapon choices might also have been more restricted. Cheers, Ben
Hair Wax 09-05-05, 08:30 AM	Thug from the SRD (http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVaria ntThug)
WayneTheGame 09-05-05, 08:32 AM	Ok thanks, I didn't think it was anything to worry about, just wanted some opinions. I think that the Thug class would be too "weak" for this player.. but I'm going to hold my ground and not give him a bonus :)
Kid SixXx 09-05-05, 08:33 AM	Just point to the long, long list of immunities he gets by being a warforged and tell him that it he wants the feats, he's welcome to play a human instead. Not to mention that WF can take certain tracery feats which allow it to pass certain types of DR with their Slam (which is a natural weapon that causes lethal damage as opposed to the non-lethal damage caused by a normal punch), can gain immunity to crits by taking Improved Fortification, and the like. All this, and the WF fighter will be gaining bonus fighter feats, so it can burn it's other feat slots on WF specific feats.
AvonRekaes 09-05-05, 08:51 AM	Proficiency feats are a very weak class of feat. When you are balancing a class, you don't consider "fighter is proficienct with all light and martial weapons" 30 or so bonus feats. They're blanket abilities. I can see a warforged ranger asking for a different feat besides Endurance, but asking for bonus feats because of lack of armor is the signs of a rules-bending munchkin. It's one thing to power game within the limits of the system, it's another to ask for an exception that is clearly overpowering.
Joni-san 09-05-05, 09:01 AM	On a similar note: Do you give the Elf Fighter a bonus Feat? They lose their bonus racial proficiency in Longsword and Bow. This is slightly similar, although not a direct analogue.
WayneTheGame 09-05-05, 09:04 AM	You guys do have a point there... will keep it in mind and hold my ground. Thanks!
Cutlass 09-05-05, 11:37 AM	As well to note that a fighter of any other race could be forced to take their adamantine armor off. In fact, they have to take it off every night in order to sleep/rest without penalty. The warforged with the adamantine body feat will ALWAYS have his armor as long as he lives and can only "lose" it when his character is killed. Without that racial ability as defined by the body feat a first or second level character running around in something as valuable as adamantine armor is just asking to get hit over the head by a mid level rogue and robbed. :D
Pax 09-05-05, 12:19 PM	Ask your player how many Fighters can burn a feat to get a breastplate-ish armor bonus that they can (a) sleep in, (b) always have, even if taken prisoner, (c) don't have to pay GP for, and (d) gives them damage reduction. [And yes, I'm thinking of Adamantine Body.]
WayneTheGame 09-05-05, 05:37 PM	I'm still going to remain firm but here is the player's argument: Armor Profs come from class. How is that "training" justified in-game? If you take a human fighter and a warforged fighter, the warforged has LESS training in combat-related matters than a fighter, because he cannot benefit from Armor Profs. Wouldn't that time be spent on something else? Incidently he also finds it odd that warforged don't get a racial bonus to strength.. I find the lack of a Strength bonus to be utterly against their whole purpose - combat. By their rules, the average dwarf or half-orc is stronger than a warforged. So much for carrying massive loads and inflicting added damage (which they are depicted and described as doing all over the place).
UnkemptSage 09-05-05, 05:59 PM	I'm still going to remain firm but here is the player's argument: Armor Profs come from class. How is that "training" justified in-game? If you take a human fighter and a warforged fighter, the warforged has LESS training in combat-related matters than a fighter, because he cannot benefit from Armor Profs. Wouldn't that time be spent on something else? Incidently he also finds it odd that warforged don't get a racial bonus to strength.. I find the lack of a Strength bonus to be utterly against their whole purpose - combat. By their rules, the average dwarf or half-orc is stronger than a warforged. So much for carrying massive loads and inflicting added damage (which they are depicted and described as doing all over the place). Neither of these arguments are sound to me. Nobody in the real world knows what a warforged would have to go through to train, and it's highly likely that they have to build up their own ability to move in their own fortification. Furthermore, an argument like this, even if it was sound, doesn't hit on the key issue with the 'forged: game balance. Warforged may not be able to take advantage of armor, but they get a HUGE amount of other bonuses, including an inherent armor bonus, many immunities, a natural weapon, resistance to critical hits, and, to a lesser extent, not having to pay for food or lodging due to not having to eat or sleep. A human gets none of that, but they are naturally ambitious, so they get an extra feat and skill points. If you ask me, the human deserves another feat more than the 'forged does! Also, the whole purpose of dwarves is not combat, as your player suggests. Like any other race, dwarves are not simply in existence to fight. They also mine, have jobs, make money, have families, and so on. Just because your average dwarf may be stronger than most humans, that may not be because of an inherent trait. It can also be because they've trained at it. A half-orc is genetically built for strength, it's how they survive.
Splendide 09-05-05, 06:00 PM	I'm still going to remain firm but here is the player's argument: Armor Profs come from class. How is that "training" justified in-game? If you take a human fighter and a warforged fighter, the warforged has LESS training in combat-related matters than a fighter, because he cannot benefit from Armor Profs. Wouldn't that time be spent on something else? Remind him that warforged training time is remarkably brief. Incidently he also finds it odd that warforged don't get a racial bonus to strength.. [i]I find the lack of a Strength bonus to be utterly against their whole purpose - combat. By their rules, the average dwarf or half-orc is stronger than a warforged. So much for carrying massive loads and inflicting added damage (which they are depicted and described as doing all over the place).It is clear that warforged are strong, because they are capable of hauling themselves around all day. If you think this player is being a tool, which it appears he is, let him play a warforged with +2 strength, and swapping out an armor feat for something a warforged would need be trained in while humans are off learning to use armor. Maybe a feat that gives +2 to Knowledge (nobility and royalty) and Knowledge (geography). Then make him take a level adjustment. Also, remind him that he is entirely welcome to play a dwarf or half-orc.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 09-05-05, 06:03 PM	Warforged DO have to be trained in their armor... Last I checked, Adamantine Body still forces an armor check penalty.
Just another user 09-05-05, 06:51 PM	If your player's arguments were sound, then one could also say that if you multiclass the fighter with some other classes than give armor proficiencies you could swap those second Armor prof with some other feats, after all a fighter that become paladin don't need to train again to learn to use a light, medium and heavy armors (to not mention shields ) would it mean he can get three extra bonus feats?
Kid SixXx 09-05-05, 08:37 PM	Warforged DO have to be trained in their armor... Last I checked, Adamantine Body still forces an armor check penalty. The armor check penalties apply to skills such as Balance and Swim, which are always forced upon characters wearing any kind of armor: that is just a matter of lack of mobiltity while wearing armor. OTOH, WF does not (or at least should not) have to take Armor Proficiency (Heavy) in addition to Adamantine Body in order to avoid the Armor Check penalties to attack rolls. The assumption is that the WF is familiar enough with it's own composition that it is considered to be unhindered in matters of combat.
Tek 09-05-05, 09:04 PM	Tell the player that if he continues trying to be such a twit that he can go find another race to play. With his reasoning, anytime you EVER overlap on something, you should get bonus feats instead. You just went from Fighter to Paladin? You get 30 some bonus feats since you don't need the weapon prof's! That makes sense! Here's what you do. In a firm voice, as he's arguing that he should still get his feats and his +2 to Str, stop in in the middle of his speech and say, "Look. I'm not changing the warforged, and I'm not changing a fighter. If you play one, you'll play by normal 3.5 rules, and if you don't play one, you don't play one. So hurry up and make your decision, because I'm done fighting you on this." If he then continues to whine tell him that you're not going to let him a play a warforged at all. He'll need to find something else.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 09-05-05, 09:10 PM	But that's the thing... Warforged were taken straight from the creation forges to the training grounds. They would be about as comfortable with their construction as a teenager fresh from its latest growth spurt. Their armored "skin", although much a part of them as it was, would STILL be awkward and cumbersome... That's why Warforged Wizards still have an arcane spell failure chance and why their armor has an AC penalty at all. Why should it be combersome when tumbling, swimming, climbing, or jumping, but NOT when swinging an axe or thrusting a rapier? The Warforged is familiar with its composition, yes, but being proficient in the use of a weapon is a different matter entirely than being able to use it as effectively as a human proficient in the use of both weapon and armor. EDIT: And while I normally wouldn't compensate a class on basis of overlap or something like that, there SHOULD be some exceptions, like someone with two classes that gain Evasion. I'd just rule that they gain Improved Evasion at that point, but if they tried to trade it for ANYTHING else I'd probably just leave it as written.
Edymnion 09-05-05, 09:11 PM	1) Nowhere in the body feats do the words "Armor Check Penalty" get mentioned. It is a feat that gives bonuses to armor class, and penalties to a set number of skills, which just so happen to be the same skills that ACP normally affects. This is a FEAT, not real armor. Do NOT treat it as being real armor for things like this, it is a feat, nothing more, nothing less. 2) Look at Fighters in general. When was the last time you EVER saw a fighter use more than one type of armor, or use more than at most two or three key weapons? The dex fighter in leather armor is never going to wear full plate. The archery based fighter is never going to use a greatsword. Would you give them more feats because they are being "jipped" out of those other proficiencies?
sooperspook 09-06-05, 04:15 AM	I agree about not giving swaping out the feats. but i also agree witih his comment that its odd they dont get a Str bonus. I dont subscribe to the 'Str is more important than other stats' thing. personally i find that mental stats to be much stronger. i generally allow WF to get both Str and Con bonuses. hasnt overpwoered my game nor has it let to a profusion of WF in my parties.
fuindordm 09-06-05, 04:28 AM	I don't find it that odd they don't have a Str bonus. Their bodies are much less supple, being made largely of wood, and I imagine that while they can exert more force overall, they can't exert it as quickly as a fleshy. Also, remember that warforged are constructed, not born. The 'standard model' warforged has the following stats (standard array, with adjustments): Str 15 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 6 The 'standard model' human warrior with the same priorities has the following stats: Str 13 Dex 11 Con 12 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 8 Ben
Fordel 09-06-05, 05:44 AM	I don't find it odd that they don't have a str bonus either, but only because then you would have to make WF ECL+1 instead of the no ECL currently :P The Warforged is the way it is for game balance reasons. There are *alot* of things in the rules that don't "make sense" (not just WF'd related things) but are the way they are, for the sake of having a manageable game. I'd do what others have suggested. Tell him to either play the race/class as written or find something else to play instead.
makeshiftwings 09-06-05, 12:53 PM	No offense, but your player knows full well that Warforged are pretty uber fighters, and he's just trying to trick you into giving him a bunch of free feats for no reason. If he really "feels bad" that he can't use his three armor proficiencies, then make him feel better by giving him Unarmored Body for "free", and then requiring him to switch in and out of all three types of armor at least once each adventure. Also, make sure you require him to buy one of each type of weapon before he can buy anything else so that he's not "wasting" all those martial weapon proficiencies.
Lord Zeb 09-06-05, 01:14 PM	Ask him if he would rather play a WF barbarian ;)
Thrincold 09-06-05, 01:32 PM	Also remember that if he wants to trade in say light armour proficiency feat, he loses the other two with no compensation. They are reliant on each other. Adamantine body is the equiv of heavy armour. Therefore he needs heavy armour prof. He can't trade in the lesser two, he needs them to have heavy armour prof.
Edymnion 09-06-05, 03:07 PM	Adamantine body is the equiv of heavy armour. Therefore he needs heavy armour prof.No, he doesn't. Adamantine Body is not armor, it is a feat. You no more need a proficiency for a body feat than you need a proficiency feat to use Dodge or Power Attack. The body feats give you bonuses and penalties that resemble those granted by mundane armor. Even if you DID say that they counted as armor in this way, I challenge you to find for me where it says they get an Armor Check Penalty. And it MUST use the exact phrase "Armor Check Penalty", because that is a named penalty, and ONLY that penalty gets applied to things when you are non-proficient. I'll save you the time and effort. It doesn't say that. It specifically says you get a penalty to a listed set of skills. If it was intended to be an ACP, it would have simply said "and an Armor Check Penalty of -4" or whatever.
Thrincold 09-06-05, 03:44 PM	No, he doesn't. Adamantine Body is not armor, it is a feat. You no more need a proficiency for a body feat than you need a proficiency feat to use Dodge or Power Attack. The body feats give you bonuses and penalties that resemble those granted by mundane armor. Even if you DID say that they counted as armor in this way, I challenge you to find for me where it says they get an Armor Check Penalty. And it MUST use the exact phrase "Armor Check Penalty", because that is a named penalty, and ONLY that penalty gets applied to things when you are non-proficient. I'll save you the time and effort. It doesn't say that. It specifically says you get a penalty to a listed set of skills. If it was intended to be an ACP, it would have simply said "and an Armor Check Penalty of -4" or whatever. Let me simply restate then. I rule and have decided as a DM that you need the appropriate feat to use these body feats correctly. This is a house rule within my group that we all agree on. It is treated as heavy armour for ranger and barbarian abilities. So it falls into the same category as INA and monks attacks, do they work together or are then mutually exclusive. That is up to the individual group to decide. Any ruling against a whiny munchin trying to get free feats for his selection of race is better than nothing. He should either choose something different or follow the damned rules as written.
Edymnion 09-06-05, 05:13 PM	Personally, I'm a big fan of "Sure, you can do it that way. But I'll dissallow you from taking Fighter, and you have to be a Warrior instead." ;)
Brastan 09-06-05, 05:52 PM	:pbbbtt: Even if he think thinks h's lost some feats it doesn't matter with the pay back. If you really feeling generous use Unearthed Arcane flaws (Vulnerable for one) then get Improved Damage Reduction. Once you have a DR of 5/adamantine before mid-levels lets see anyone but a dedicated melee monster hurt you. My most recent Warforged character just had a five vs. one with pack of rogues. Flaw + Warforged substation level for fighter at 2nd netted a DR 4 at 4th level. I did use a door way to my advantage to keep flanking down, so most of their attacks didn't even scratch me. Most humanoid fighters with high AC an eventually be worn down with lucky blows. An adamantine Warforged fighter with a good DR has longer staying power in combat than normal.
drunkenewok 09-07-05, 11:26 AM	To both contradict and reinforce Edymnion's opinion, the Body feats (at least in my copy of the ECS) do include the phrase "Armor Check Penalty". However, it does specifically say that the penalty applies only to those skill checks that armor check penalties apply to (Balance, Climb, Esacpe Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Swim, and Tumble). It does not state that it is a "true" armor check penalty, which would apply the penalty to attacks for non-proficient characters. By the RAW, a Warforged who takes a Body feat is not required to be proficient in that armor, and I think that makes a fair bit of sense. If you spend your entire life in armor, and it is literally a part of your body, I cannot imagine imposing penalties that are alleviated by a feat that signifies "practicing" with armor. As far as game balance is concerned, there really isn't a situation that is "unbalancing". Any character who is not normally proficient in using heavy armor still has to take the Adamantine Body feat, so they are effectively "as powerful" as a character who took the Armor Proficiency (Heavy) feat. Requiring a warforged character who is not normally proficient to purchase the Armor Proficiency feat just seems like overkill to me. As far as the warforged fighter being "gipped" by having to take Adamantine Body, I can see a very small kernel of truth. At lower levels (1-5), Adamantine Body in particular is a HUGE benefit. At higher levels, however, Body feats become less of an advantage, since other characters gain enough funding to purchase similar or even superior armor. While I don't think the character should be "compensated" for his loss, if he feels very strongly about it, I'd offer one of the following options, which are more than fair: The character takes the Adamantine Body feat at L1, but has the option to "buy off" the feat for 16,500 gold (or some other value, set by you) at a point later in his career - the benefits provided by Adamantine Body are approximately equal to a suit of masterwork Adamantine Full Plate, which has a market price of 16,500gp. You might give a slight discount because DR 2/- (the armor) is better than DR 2/adamantine (the feat) Allow the player to make a "wish list" of alternate "bonus" feats, and YOU pick the feat he gets in exchange, preferably one that doesn't factor heavily in some uber-CO build Of course, I'm a softy, and I prefer to let players play what they like, so long as they don't get too greedy. In that case, I think Tek has the right idea. As for the +2 Str, I'd allow it, but at the cost of adding a +1 LA to the warforged. The warforged is already a really powerful race, and adding that to the mix would make it just too nice, imho. If you compare the number of classes/magic items you have to acquire to reach the 'forged's natural abilities, I think most would probably agree. Of course, those that disagree are welcome to make whatever changes they choose... :D
makeshiftwings 09-07-05, 12:28 PM	As far as the warforged fighter being "gipped" by having to take Adamantine Body, I can see a very small kernel of truth. The original poster wasn't saying that; he was saying that since he can't use the Fighter's three "feats" of Light, Med, and Heavy Armor Proficiency, he should instead get to pick 3 different feats... I would hope you're not so much of a softy to let THAT fly. ;)
Edymnion 09-07-05, 12:35 PM	At higher levels, however, Body feats become less of an advantage, since other characters gain enough funding to purchase similar or even superior armor.How so? The composite plating can be enchanted just like any other armor, and you have always been able to piecemeal the enchanting process over a long period of time (+1 this level, fortification that level, +2 the level after that, etc). Its like saying the Fighter in Full Plate is good at low levels, but gets screwed at high levels. Sure, the WF can't just find new armor in a treasure pile, but that in no way prevents him from 'chanting it up just like anybody else can.
Ricohard_Draconis 09-07-05, 12:49 PM	Sure, the WF can't just find new armor in a treasure pile, but that in no way prevents him from 'chanting it up just like anybody else can. Sure he can, he just hands it to his friendly neighbourhood Artificer and asks him to recycle it...
drunkenewok 09-07-05, 03:24 PM	How so? The composite plating can be enchanted just like any other armor, and you have always been able to piecemeal the enchanting process over a long period of time (+1 this level, fortification that level, +2 the level after that, etc).Yes, the warforged can enchant his body just like armor, but that's not the comparison I'm trying to make. At higher level, the relative gold piece values of the Body feats tends to decline. Consider that a suit of Adamantine Full Plate costs 16,500gp, and is approximately equal to what you get when you take the Adamantine Body feat. At level 1, there is absolutely NOTHING that can compare with the power of that feat. Chances are good that none of the other players will even have equal AC, let alone the DR. (A suit of Full Plate is out of the price range of most characters). Fast forward to L10, where the average PC has 49,000gp in wealth (cf. DMG135). At that point your average human fighter has probably picked up a suit of masterwork Full Plate, so the AC difference is effectively nullified. Chances are even decent he's managed to pick up the Adamantine version, so the DR difference is gone too. (And the human's DR is slightly better, since it can't be overcome by any special material). Plus, the human has a feat that he didn't have to spend to get armor. Basically, because the feat can be given a specific cost in gold pieces, and because gp become much more plentiful in supply as character's level up, while feats remain relatively static, the relative value of Adamantine Body goes down. Consider the following table, which shows the percentage of each resource (gold or feats) that a character would have to spend at each level. (Assuming standard wealth from DMG135, and only the standard 1/3 level feats) GP% Feat% 1 11000% 100% 5 183% 50% 10 33% 25% 15 8% 17% 20 2% 14%After L11, the relative cost of the feat is higher than the cost of the item. Then consider that there are feat benefits that cannot be replicated by an item and that feats are in much shorter supply, feats tend to be worth more than gold in a purely qualitative sense, which skews the table even further in advantage of the item. From a CO perspective, the Body feats are kinda like Level Adjustments, they tend to be really powerful and nice at low levels when other players don't have those abilities, but at high levels, it's significantly less impressive, and in some cases almost a hindrance. I'll stand by my earlier statement that from levels 1-7, Adamantine Body is one of the best feats available; from 7-11, it's pretty good; and from 12+ it tends to be less than optimal.
Thievingrouge 09-07-05, 09:29 PM	They are fine as is, why? 1. Warforged and strength. Warforged are meant to be good combatants, meaning they have a higher CON than a human. about the same as a dwarf, but without being gay, or scottish. (don't ask about the gay). They don't need to be strong, the important thing to a warrior (IE Soldier, I know most were fighters), is CON because of the staying power. Besides, you do realize most forged have the elite array... to the average soldier he IS stronger. 2. Armor prof. Your kidding right? please say you are... The proficency isn't really a feat to the fighter, this isn't Star Wars d20.... And doing that would open up the wizard to be able to ask, since he won't be casting spells from 2 schools (Specialist if you let the forged do it), if he can have extra spells in his book each level to compensate. Or letting a halfling lose his STR penalty because he wants to be a Barbarian.
Pax 09-08-05, 09:22 AM	As far as the warforged fighter being "gipped" by having to take Adamantine Body, I can see a very small kernel of truth. At lower levels (1-5), Adamantine Body in particular is a HUGE benefit. At higher levels, however, Body feats become less of an advantage, since other characters gain enough funding to purchase similar or even superior armor. The Warforged character will have the same total funding that any other character has - and thus, will be able to take all the money that everyone else is spending on armor ... and spend it on their shield and weapon(s). So, if bob the sword-and-board fighter can afford an adamantine breastplate and adamantine shield, Joe the Warforged fighter can definitely afford an adamantine greatsword. Alternately ... remember that a Warforged's body plating can be enchanted JUST like magic armor. So if you were thinking "the others will get magic items that'll be as good or better", remember that the Warforged wiull be getting his Adamantine body plating enhanced just as much. The advantage doesn't go away ... at most, it simply CHANGES a bit.
drunkenewok 09-09-05, 07:19 PM	The advantage doesn't go away ... at most, it simply CHANGES a bit. I'll grant that you still have the armor, but I still assert that the advantage gained by the feat diminishes rapidly as the character levels. In a simpler format, tell me which you'd rather have at level 20: 16,500gp OR An extra Feat I'm not the betting type, but I'd wager a tidy sum that the vast majority of characters would rather have the extra feat (which is the primary reason humans are the race of choice on the CO boards). Adamantine Body is the most "efficient" of the body feats in this regard, Mithril Body is only worth about 4,000gp. Or worse, you could take Unarmored Body AND have to pay to get the armor. Are the warforged being screwed? Only at the higher levels, and even then it isn't a terrible difference. If it would shut up a whiny player, I'd offer the chance to "buy off" a body feat at a price comparable to the armor bonuses it provides, but in the vast majority of cases, it really won't matter.
Edymnion 09-09-05, 10:14 PM	Yes, the warforged can enchant his body just like armor, but that's not the comparison I'm trying to make. At higher level, the relative gold piece values of the Body feats tends to decline.Yeah, but the value of feats you can take at level 1 diminish at the same rate. And really, for the fighter, you get so many bonus feats that I actually have had difficulty building a pure fighter that focused on one thing, simply because all those feats let him get it all done early, so he had to branch off into something else. One feat is not anywhere near being a big investment for a Fighter.
WayneTheGame 09-09-05, 10:27 PM	OK thanks guys. I think the crux of the matter was that this player has a thing for realism.. for a Modern game he ran he pretty much re-did all the weapons and armor to make it more "realistic" and because the firearms were too weak. I, on the other hand, LIKE the rules the way they are. So again, thanks for the help. Now I just have to contend with two warforged in my group... one barbarian and one paladin (now THAT should be interesting...)