Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emperorwes 08-23-04, 01:44 AM	This message is from a gentleman who just recently was tricked into buying the sorcebook: Okay, so I went out and bought a copy of the Eberron Campaign Setting. I’d been putting it off for a rather shallow reason…I despise the art they used to promote the world. However, I think art says a lot abut the campaign setting being offered. For example, the art used in Eberron says “I’m the bastard child of Birthright and Star Trek.” It also says “Come, play in a world where all the characters look like Aztecs for some reason.” Anyway, I bought the book (against my better judgment), and I pretty much hate it, for the following reasons: New Races: C’mon! If WotC is going to create new races, you’d think they could do better than the “robots” they call Warforged (bastardized golems at best) or the “not quite human, but not quite animal” shifters. These are two of the lamest ideas I’ve ever seen. They’re something I’d expect from a pre-pubescent new DM trying his hand at creating his own world for the first time, but not something from a major game publisher. Some of the new Psionicist classes (like the Kalashtar or the Inspired) are mildly interesting, but only if you like Psionics (and I don’t). Technology: Oh brother…magic that simulates things like trains and airplanes. Just call a thing what it is and if you want to play modern RPG’s (with things like trains or planes) just do it! I’m sorry, but I’m just not all that interested in playing in a world where magic plays the role it does: to advance industry. Conceptually, I guess I can see how that would happen, but in the eyes of the people of Eberron, it really wouldn’t be magic anymore, it would just be technology. Seriously, with overexposure, anything loses its mystique…including magic. What were once arcane and deadly mages are now little more than blue-collar union workers. Bah! Action Points: This is what we waited for? They already did that long ago (they were called “Luck Points”) with the Red Sonja module in first edition. Really, they must be hurting for good ideas to just repackage unsuccessful first edition ideas and package them for consumption for guys too new to the gaming industry to know better. Dragonmarks: Ooooh…arcane birthmarks that reveal divine favor and magical abilities. Can you say the Mummy 2 (or the TSR Finder's Stone Trilogy [Azure Bonds ring a bell])? Seriously, if WotC thought this was the best world out of the 11,000 that were submitted, they have their heads firmly planted up their…well…you know. In short, I found the entire campaign setting pretty lame. Some of the historical and geographical features are decent, but all of the other stuff outweighs anything remotely interesting. If this is the best they can do, WotC will soon be bankrupt. It makes me long for the horrendous days of Dark Sun and that stupid diceless “Dragonlance Saga.” Seriously Emperor, you could make up a campaign setting one million times better than this while daydreaming through one session of one of your graduate classes. If we’re gonna do something new (and I’m up for that), let’s do something less stupid. Still, if you want to run a campaign in the Eberron setting, I’m willing to set aside all my preconceived notions and give it a shot. With some major tweaking, you could probably make it interesting. Who knows?
Rajorke 08-23-04, 02:07 AM	first of all i think you have a serious superiority complex issue that needs to be taken care of, but i will reply to your "highness's" brilliant deduction of the world called Eberron. robots or "bastardized golems" seems to me to be the summurization from a pubesciant dm. the warforged are not just robots stuck blindly into a world where they dont belong, though they have no disticnt niche in the world they were created soley for the purpose of war. and what makes them interesting is the fact that they are a race that has no place in world, a race that searches desperately into a world were the other races fill the roles of carrying out a divine prophecy. But the place the warforged hold in the world is not hte only thing that makes them interesting there is also the question of from where the warforged gained their sentience (keep in mind this is not d20 modern there is not scientific technologies that created them but instead a magical technology and as we know magic is a mystical and spiritual force) but its late so i wont go any further just give it a shot like you said you would but if you look at the world in a negative manner i doubt you'll enjoy it anyway and i just hope your not going to dm the game then no one will be able to have hte chance to enjoy the GREAT setting.
Rajorke 08-23-04, 02:08 AM	first of all i think you have a serious superiority complex issue that needs to be taken care of, but i will reply to your "highness's" brilliant deduction of the world called Eberron. robots or "bastardized golems" seems to me to be the summurization from a pre-pubesciant dm. the warforged are not just robots stuck blindly into a world where they dont belong, though they have no disticnt niche in the world they were created soley for the purpose of war. and what makes them interesting is the fact that they are a race that has no place in world, a race that searches desperately into a world were the other races fill the roles of carrying out a divine prophecy. But the place the warforged hold in the world is not hte only thing that makes them interesting there is also the question of from where the warforged gained their sentience (keep in mind this is not d20 modern there is not scientific technologies that created them but instead a magical technology and as we know magic is a mystical and spiritual force) but its late so i wont go any further just give it a shot like you said you would but if you look at the world in a negative manner i doubt you'll enjoy it anyway and i just hope your not going to dm the game then no one will be able to have hte chance to enjoy the GREAT setting.
Miles 08-23-04, 02:11 AM	And you are posting this here, why? In order to start another debate on whether or not a campaign setting is good or not? You'll get a lot of answers one way or another (mostly for, since not a lot of against people will be perusing the Eberron boards), but what will that accomplish? I think that my even responding to this is giving it too much attention. Miles.
Brastan 08-23-04, 02:31 AM	You got tricked into buying Eberron? That's to bad. That should never happen. Who or what did the tricking, and did you to your research before parting with the cashed need to buy the book? Needless to say that your points have already been made many time on this board ever seen Eberron was announced. So that you did not waste your money on this setting I recommend poaching valuable content. First of the multi-class feats for Paladins and Monks. Although this may appear munchkenish I recommend utilizing multi classed Cleric Monk, working toward Scared Fist prestige class. Second the Mournland, which is by far the nastiest region I have ever seen in print for the moral realms. (no natural healing or magic healing from the Healing sub-school, Cure Light wounds etc. ) I recommend you read deeper in this forum for context on this setting. Many for your issues have been addressed. I except your criticism and also thank you for reminding us who enjoy Eberron that not every D&D player feels the same way. Read around and discuss. You should find that most of us are accommodating. Expect for Miles apparently.
Takitron 08-23-04, 02:35 AM	"Seriously Emperor, you could make up a campaign setting one million times better than this while daydreaming through one session of one of your graduate classes. " Ill bite! Lets go a'trollin! one, refering to ones self in the third person is weird at best, egotistical and arrogant at worst. all of your complaints, while well founded in your overly educated head, are nitpicky. Did you submit a world to the contest? I mean, you claim you make up better things than this. ok then, Ill bite Bring it. Post a one page, and if we like it, a 10 page. No refusing to do this, since you say you can, and hate Eberron. I would love to see what you can dream up. :t:, Target Whiner Brings it, if Target Whiner cant bring it, Target Whiner is removed from Game. Skip your next upkeep. Bring it? consider it Braughten!
protonik 08-23-04, 02:39 AM	Meh, this guy has his head firmly planted up his you know what... he might want to read the book instead of just flipping through it. Eberron has a great dynamic and is very well done. The technology is only the natural evolution of a world with D&D style magic, it works. Jason
stone_dog 08-23-04, 02:44 AM	((gasp!)) An first time poster making an anti Eberron tirade! Oh that takes me back... makes me all nostalgic for the early days of the future releases board. We should get pkloop and emperor norton in on this and have a reunion. Maybe make a campfire, roast some smores and sing kumbaya. For one, I am seriously happy with the way things are going. I love being in on the ground floor, the upcoming support looks wonderful and as far as I can see the skies are as bright as can be.
Brastan 08-23-04, 02:47 AM	:sad: :t: Instigator targets a post and starts fire, incurring wrath of WizOs. During next players upkeep target post is buried. No one learns anything. We must be kind to those who complain. Snapping at those with concerns only turns them away. Needless to say I need sleep for class tomarrow, so what I'm doing here. Be nice and play kindly, good night.
Just another user 08-23-04, 04:07 AM	Read the Dragonshards articles. If those can not interest you into Eberron nothing can. (ok, maybe a bikini-clad model as a GM still could, but the Dragonshard articles are easier to find)
Galen_Michael 08-23-04, 04:27 AM	Just as an observation, I'm pretty sure that what Emperor posted is an e-mail (or other correspondence) from one of his players, whom he encouraged to buy the ECS since Emperor plans to run his campaign in Eberron. Hence the reference to Emperor in the third person and the preface: "This message is from a gentleman who just recently was tricked into buying the sorcebook" rather than, "I was recently tricked into buying the ECS..." Tht's my Master Inquisitive deduction anyway ;) I could be totally wrong, of course... Oh, and just my $.02 - Eberron is my favorite campaign setting ever. But that doesn't mean it's for everyone. Although posting a rant about it on the Eberron boards (even if by someone) else does seem kinda silly. Peace, Galen
Save_vs_DM 08-23-04, 04:36 AM	If you dislike the setting, perhaps you might be able to return it to the store? If you kept the receit and the book is in good condition (and unless you were so upset you tossed it around of out spite, it should be) the store should take it back without question. If worse comes to worst you could simply auction it on ebay - you could probably recoup most of your money. If that doesn't work, there are things you can scavenge for other campaigns - some of the feats are interesting and the artificer could be tweaked. Use what you like and ditch the rest. Eberron isn't everyone's cup o' tea. No shame in that, you simply dislike the setting. In the future I would greatly appreciate it if you kept your tone a little less condescending, but your tone is understandable given your situation. Cheers and happy gaming, Save vs DM
Bubba333 08-23-04, 04:58 AM	I'm normally pretty tolerant of people like this, but this guy's a joke. Call it bad to refer to him as such, but seriously...who twisted his arm to buy the book? Eberron is exactly what it claims to be: a pulp-action fantasy setting. It delivers this in spades with its magitech and the warforged, to name but two things. Heck, I had little to no interest in playing D&D, let alone buying any products for it, until I heard about Eberron. Even then I did quite a bit of research about it before I spent $120.00 on books. There's nothing wrong with disliking a product, but to post comments bashing said product, with no CONSTRUCTIVE criticism...and on the very forum about the product, is silly and immature. I also second him putting his money where his mouth is and showing us what he'd create as a setting. However if he does that, we need to judge it fairly.
MarkB 08-23-04, 05:21 AM	Originally posted by Emperorwes Technology: Oh brother…magic that simulates things like trains and airplanes. Just call a thing what it is and if you want to play modern RPG’s (with things like trains or planes) just do it! I’m sorry, but I’m just not all that interested in playing in a world where magic plays the role it does: to advance industry. Conceptually, I guess I can see how that would happen, but in the eyes of the people of Eberron, it really wouldn’t be magic anymore, it would just be technology. Seriously, with overexposure, anything loses its mystique…including magic. What were once arcane and deadly mages are now little more than blue-collar union workers. Bah! Y'know, this is a reaction against Eberron that I've seen several times, and it just really bugs me. D&D has this ludicrously schizophrenic view of magic - on the one hand, it's supposed to be as rare and mysterious as it is in Lord of the Rings, but on the other hand, it's made so accessible in the default rules and settings that you can just stroll into a church and buy miracles for gold, and every major population centre has spells, potions and magical weapons available off-the-shelf, all at standard prices. Any mature new setting has to tackle this discrepancy, and barring something ridiculously convoluted, there are really only two options. Either make magic strange and mysterious, and create a low-magic campaign, or work with D&D's default levels, and acknowledge that magic is as commonplace as it actually is. Eberron goes with option 2, which IMO is the sensible one, especially for an official campaign setting - it'd be rather silly for an official campaign setting to contradict the assumptions of the core rulebooks in something so fundamental as availability of magic. And it manages to do this while still maintaining a surprising amount of magic's mystique, by removing the buy-a-resurrection mechanic from religious organisations, and through its limitations of NPC power levels, which ensures that magic above around 4th-5th level is still rare, mysterious and awe-inspiring. I can see how some people wouldn't like this - either those who've grown up with D&D's contradictory nature and don't like to see any change to it, or those who genuinely do prefer a lower-magic setting. However, it's a little silly to criticise the setting just for not being what you expected, especially as this aspect of it is one of the most heavily-advertised (to the extent that many Eberron detractors tend to make more of it than actually exists in the book). Anyone who doesn't like this aspect of the setting should have been put off it long before they considered actually parting with cash for it. Personally, I love Eberron's take on magic - it's the approach I'd have taken in building a campaign setting, and it's implemented extremely well.
Caladors 08-23-04, 06:27 AM	well as some one whom doesn't own the game nor is going to buy it for a lack of money and other reasons. first off if you could make a campagin a million times better why did your pruchace said product? sure i have made my own campagin and i made campagins for along time but i never went "Forgotten Realms is crap" or this is crap or that is crap. seriously gloating is just a thin veil of jeliously. i don't like grey hawk but i will not say it is crap or something like that when you have to insult something it's pretty cowardly very much so considering your doing it across the net. (wait for it i can see him gloating over some mistake i have done alread) well here is some zen for you. "all that is always was and that has been always will" in otherwords nothing is truely orginal, just the way people go about. I looked at some reviews and i liked some of the ideas how many wizard produced games accually have magic powered stuff? if magic is there you think people wouldn't use it in the forgottne realms they would have enough magic to take off like a rocket to the moon yet there are no changes to the world or varis things. his just taken into consdieration what they did or didn't want to keep it more tolkinesk. personally the ideas i saw exeperessed were good. if you can do better give and link and prove your "greatness"
Bubba333 08-23-04, 06:58 AM	Originally posted by MarkB Y'know, this is a reaction against Eberron that I've seen several times, and it just really bugs me. D&D has this ludicrously schizophrenic view of magic - on the one hand, it's supposed to be as rare and mysterious as it is in Lord of the Rings, but on the other hand, it's made so accessible in the default rules and settings that you can just stroll into a church and buy miracles for gold, and every major population centre has spells, potions and magical weapons available off-the-shelf, all at standard prices. Any mature new setting has to tackle this discrepancy, and barring something ridiculously convoluted, there are really only two options. Either make magic strange and mysterious, and create a low-magic campaign, or work with D&D's default levels, and acknowledge that magic is as commonplace as it actually is. Eberron goes with option 2, which IMO is the sensible one, especially for an official campaign setting - it'd be rather silly for an official campaign setting to contradict the assumptions of the core rulebooks in something so fundamental as availability of magic. And it manages to do this while still maintaining a surprising amount of magic's mystique, by removing the buy-a-resurrection mechanic from religious organisations, and through its limitations of NPC power levels, which ensures that magic above around 4th-5th level is still rare, mysterious and awe-inspiring. I can see how some people wouldn't like this - either those who've grown up with D&D's contradictory nature and don't like to see any change to it, or those who genuinely do prefer a lower-magic setting. However, it's a little silly to criticise the setting just for not being what you expected, especially as this aspect of it is one of the most heavily-advertised (to the extent that many Eberron detractors tend to make more of it than actually exists in the book). Anyone who doesn't like this aspect of the setting should have been put off it long before they considered actually parting with cash for it. Personally, I love Eberron's take on magic - it's the approach I'd have taken in building a campaign setting, and it's implemented extremely well. Very good points. Also, it makes logical sense that magic would replace drastic advances in technology because it's easier in many ways. Why develop aerospace science when you can just bind an elemental and make a flying ship? Why create the steam locomotive when you can have the lightning rail? Why create electric lights when you can cast a few spells to create everbright laterns? Why create a polygraph when you can cast Zone of Truth? Why attempt to learn the biological nature of disease when simple spells can cure you? You get the idea. I'm not saying that magic replaces science completely, but when you've got relatively common access to a power such as magic, the necessity for leaps in science might not be there. One thing I'm very interested in is the wartech of Eberron.
JohnnyONeal 08-23-04, 09:33 AM	An first time poster making an anti Eberron tirade! Oh that takes me back... makes me all nostalgic for the early days of the future releases board. We should get pkloop and emperor norton in on this and have a reunion. Maybe make a campfire, roast some smores and sing kumbaya. :D As for the comments, you can't please everybody. A lot of the criticisms seemed to be "this isn't original enough!" If you ask me, D&D has rarely been about creating entirely original concepts. It's been about taking cool fantasy ideas that are already out there and putting them together in a cohesive satisfying way. The result is something familiar but distinctive, and I think Eberron is an awesome example of that.
Kid SixXx 08-23-04, 10:16 AM	Wow, when I saw the title of this thread, I thought the first post would include some constructive analysis along with the critique. Since it is yet another lamer Eberron hate-thread, I can ignore it and continue to lurk the very promising "Other Secret Cannith Bases" thread for good ideas to stea... er... borrow.
Argonel 08-23-04, 02:07 PM	Congratulations on a successful troll. Did your friend perhaps order thier copy of the ECS from on online retailer for a substantial discount or did he purchase it from a local store? When I purchased my copy from a local store I had ample time to browse through it and form an opinion about the content. If he had no opportunity to glance at the content then it may be fair to say he was tricked into buying it. If he ordered it online you could make the point that it is one of the risks that you accept in order to get the lower price. In any case this is not a constructive discussion and some of the earlier posters have provided good suggestions for your friend.
WizO_Sith 08-23-04, 02:14 PM	"Trolling" is a violation of the WotC Online Code of Conduct (www.wizards.com/coc). This thread will be locked. Do not restart it. *Click*