Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 01:01 AM	I have been thinking of this for some time now, maybe you all can help me figure it out. I am interested in your ideas on what would happen if Oargev ir' Wynarn were to stake his claim to the Galifarian Throne. How would he muster the support to do this, and if he were to actually get enough supporters behind him, how would the other Kingdoms respond. Keep in mind that when the "Last War" started there were only 2 sides, Karrnath, Thrane, and Breland, opposing Mishann's (Cyre) rightful claim to the throne. Aundair actually support her/his sister Mishann (Cyre), at least initially, could that be a possible place to start (mustering favor and allies to his claim) with Cyre being no more. Could the favor of a once faithful ally and supporter of the traditios of Galifar be rekindled?
Splendide 02-06-06, 01:09 AM	Amusing fact: A randomly generated elf wizard's average age makes them old enough to clearly remember a unified Galifar. It wouldn't be too surprising if a bunch of the old Khorvaire elf families backed his claim, though it might surprise the Five Nations. They could be very deeply entrenched throughout the Five Nations with a tidy amount of influence. Oh yeah, old gnomes would remember it too.
Psionycx 02-06-06, 10:28 AM	What difference would it make? Breland, Karrnath and Thrane didn't recognize Mishann's claim to the Galifar throne a century ago. Aundair supported it at the time, but today Queen Aurala has her own designs on the Galifar throne. So the simple truth is that Oargev has no support for a claim to the Galifar throne. Indeed, with Cyre gone most people probably see him as having the least valid claim.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 10:37 AM	His claim is not validated by his persay "Landmass", it is at the end of the day, his by right, by blood. The question is can he muster enough support form Galifarion Purists, whomever they may be. Again I am thinking from the point of view that a desposed High King is usaully without landmass by the simple fact that they are disposed.
Goatdance 02-06-06, 10:55 AM	While an interesting question, the answer is very likey to be 'Boranel squashes him like a bug'. Although the Galifan age is likely to be regarded with fondness, almost all of the current population cannot remember it directly, and probably didn't even hear stories at the knees of their grandparents - it's something in books and the minds of elves now. So he's unlikely to get the massive upsurge of support he'd need to face Breland's might. And facing that might is what he'd be doing if he said 'right - I'm emperor now'. Even if Aurala supported him, she'd be unlikely to restart the war by marching into Breland to stop Boranel doing the squashing-like-bug thing. And remember, Boranel has got a really big army should he choose to mobilise, and his people love him. Oargev really doesn't have much hope to establish a credible claim, unless he either moves to Q'Barra or something, or perhaps whacks Boranel and somehow engineers a civil war in Breland that he can take advantage of.
Psionycx 02-06-06, 11:07 AM	People like to support a winner, someone they think can emerge victorious. A refugee prince like Oargev wouldn't inspire most non-Cyrans. The general population of humans has no living memory of a united Galifar. To them, their rulers have been their individual monarchs (or the Keeper of the Flame if you're from Thrane) for generations. So the legitimacy of Oargev as a potential king of Galifar, as a descendent of Mishann, probably doesn't mean much to anybody. Furthermore, since virtually every nation fought against Cyre at some point during the Last War, most people are not too well-disposed towards Cyrans, as evidenced by the way Cyran refugees have been treated in most places since the Day of Mourning. Meanwhile, the Aundairans adore Queen Aurala and would see her on the throne, a position she herself greatly desires. The Brelish are toying with ending their own monarchy and replacing it with a republic when Boranel dies. The Karrns have far too strong a nationalistic streak for their own nation. And the Thranes have already set aside their ir'Wynarn monarchy and replaced it with a theocracy. So the total number of Galifar purists is probably pretty small. Less than the population of any one of the nations, if even that. Q'Barra would be the most likely source of Galifar purists, but they're a minscule colony.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 11:32 AM	Very Cool GoatDance...LOL, Ok, lets think of it from this point of view if you will, lets say he does somehow get the support of Queen Aurala, though I have no idea how..:) and as opposed to staking his claim from Breland, he officially stakes his cliam from Aundair, with the Audairion Crown supporting him. Also he choses with great wisdom not to stake his claim while Boranel lives, but at the time of his passing when the Brelish Thrones succesion is in question. It has already been stated in the FN, that though Breland LOVES Boranel, they are not all together fond of his progeny, and there is already a great question as to which of his offspring has the capabilty to LEAD the people of Breland with the same sheer force of Character and Will that Boranel has managed to this day. Could he somehow before winning the support of Aundair, start to make political moves to somehow win the hearts of Brelanders while Boranel lives, or should we go with the first idea, that he has somehow won the support of Aundair, and stakes his claim at the time of Boranels death, stating, that " I Oargev ir' Wynarn by right of the Code of our Great ancestor Galifar the 1st do hereby stake my claim to the Crown of Breland, which is mine BY RIGHT! and call forth a return to the Old Ways, Long live GALIFAR, Long live the King" :) With a single well planned move he has taken both Aundair and Breland, how do the other 2 nations respond. Again we are leveraging this whole thing on his ancestral right alone. Man this thing really needs to be fleshed out, I am trying my hardest to figure out how he doesnt somehow get assasinated along the way...lol
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 11:35 AM	Sorry guys my last post was not in order of your responses, it was placed right after Goatdance had posted.
Psionycx 02-06-06, 12:04 PM	Oargev would get fried. Very quickly. The people of Breland don't especially care for him much to begin with. Hence their likelihood of accepting him as their monarch is even lower than their likelihhod of accepting one of Boranel's own children. With the aristocratic families of Breland already plotting to establish a patrician republic when Boranel dies, they certainly aren't going to be favorable to anything that would extend the monarch, especially with a "foreign" monarch. After all, most people on Khoravire stopped thinking of themselves as citizens of Galifar a couple of generations ago. So even if Aurala could be convinced to set aside her own personal ambitions (now that would be an impressive trick!), Aundair is nowhere near as powerful as Breland. If Boranel died the Paliament would be able to command a large chunk of the Brelish military to resist an "invasion" from Aundair. Mayhem would ensue. Meanwhile, Thrane has no desire to return to the Galifar monarchy. They took power away from their own ir'Wynarn ruler! If anything they want the Church, not a Galifar king to rule. And they could easily deflect Aundair's military resources from Breland by launching a push into Aundair from the disputed city of Thaliost. Once the blood was in the water, Karrnath wouldn't be able to stay out of it. Kaius doesn't want another war, but more than a few of his generals do, and they might be willing to mutiny against him if he tried to sit this one out. The whole thing reads more like a recipe for The Last War - Part II, than a triumphant return of the king.
Euangelion 02-06-06, 12:14 PM	Oargrev's best chance is to marry a daughter of either Boranel, Aurala, or Kaius II, especially if one of them is in line for the throne of that country. His best bets are either Boranel or Aurala (since Kaius III's sister is not actually in line for the throne). Then they together could claim the right to rule from Thronehold since they represent two lines of Jarot, including the one with the best claim of the throne. If Oargrev is really serious about it, then he'll also convert to the Silver Flame and pick up support from Thrane. He could also make a deal with ir'Clarn (or whatever his name is) to allow Breland to become a quasi-independent republic once Boranel dies. In fact, such an offer could be extended to any of the sovereign nations of Khorvaire thereby creating a loose confederation rather than a united monarchy, with each entity determining their own system of government. Then you might see free trade agreements between the entities and a small but elite unified military force. Anyway, this thing kind of got away from me, but again marrying into another line of Jarot is Oargrev's best bet, IMHO.
Psionycx 02-06-06, 12:30 PM	That scenario still all but guarantees (civil) war. If Qargev converted to the Church of the Silver Flame to win over Thrane, worshippers of the Sovereign Host (still the dominant religion in Khoravire) would see that as an immediate threat. The Church turned the Queen of Thrane into a puppet of the Church after all and everyone knows it. So it's war with Thrane if he doesn't convert, and civil war with the Host worshippers in the rest of the nations if he does. The Karrns aren't going to care if Oargev marries an heir to Aundair or Breland. And those nations are also problematic. We're assuming here that Oargev can convince Aurala to abandon her personal ambitions. Because if Oargev married one of Boranel's daughters then that would do nothing to convince the average citizen of Aundair of his right to the Galifar throne (if they didn't think the Cyran monarch should have held it by the end of the Last War, why should they think Oargev should have it now?). Meanwhile, the Brelish don't especially care for him, so if he married a daughter of Aurala that would do nothing to convince them that he should be the Galifar ruler.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 12:55 PM	LOL... You guys are just so hot right now( Jacobim Mugato, Zoolander) :), KEEP IT COMING!!!!!! I am loving this, there are some really cool ides and possibilities coming out of this. I would really love for us to focus on how it could be accomplished as well as why it wouldnt work. I like where Euangelion went with this, meaning ideas of how it could be accomplished, I have no propblems with those ides being disected after that, but I would love to see how and if it could be accomplished. A big question in my mind right now is, Are there any powerful organiztions that would stand to directly benefit from a unified Galifar, Ie: The DragonMarked Houses, just a thought. But who stands to Benefit from this other than Oargev, the displaced Cyre refugees, and the progeny of Mishann. Do any of you think that the shifter community, or the warforged community could could prove to be strong allies, in regards to muscle, (additional military might), if contingencies, and further reperations where made for their people, and give them a stronger place in regards to their standing in a unified Galifar...."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." something along these lines...
DragonWatcher 02-06-06, 12:55 PM	His claim is not validated by his persay "Landmass", it is at the end of the day, his by right, by blood. The question is can he muster enough support form Galifarion Purists, whomever they may be. Again I am thinking from the point of view that a desposed High King is usaully without landmass by the simple fact that they are disposed. While you are "technically" correct with this, in reality there is a lot more involved. Just because something is yours by right doesn't mean that you can take it... or keep it. How much chance Orgev has of being able to claim the throne is related to the fact that he has no actual kingdom right now. Without a kingdom, he has limited support militaristically. He also has very litte respect from the other rulers of the Five Nations. Kaius might want peace, but not enough to let someone else sit on the throne... especially not someone who doesn't have the might to keep it. Even if Kaius was revealed, the warlords of Karrnath would not stand for Orgev claiming to be their ruler... hell, they want to start the war back up anyhow, and this would just be a good excuse. Thrane would never bow to a king again... not voluntarily anyhow. As mentioned, they effectively did away with their own royalty... and just becomming a penitent of the Flame isn't going to change that. Unless the voice of the flame told them to submit to Orgev... I don't see that happening. Aundair isn't exactly inviting the Cyrans in... and just between you and me, I believe that they are the prime suspect in the Mourning... after all, if anyone other than the dragons had the kind of magic it would take to cause the Mourning intentionally... it was Aundair. I don't think that the Queen ordered it, but I do believe that there are powers within Aundair that were responsible. Basically, if he were to try to claim the throne, I think that it would be just like any of the rest of the rulers of Khorviare trying to claim the throne... it would be the Last War all over again. That is, until the Inspired come and spread peace... earning the everlasting devotion of the people, who would start constructing strange monoliths in honor of their saviors. ;)
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 01:29 PM	Thanks DragonWatcher, good stuff. Your two coppers were worth a Golden Galifar. I like the idea about Thrane not supporting him unless the Silver Flame told them too..Hmm now that could go somewhere, could Oargev somehow win the attention of the Flame itself, theres an idea...Well Done, Well Done indeed... :) That would even further solidify his claim in Aundair, if not only Aurala (The Crown) supported him, but the Silver Flame as well....
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 01:41 PM	... This was a bad post and I didnt know how to delete it.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 01:42 PM	Hey here are some cool ideas from Keith, the part that he said that I though was really cool, is that unbeknowest to Oargev, he might receive some help from the Dreaming Dark without knowing it, I suppose to further their own ambitions....Again I want to say, I understand that this is most likely not capable of happening...ie Oargev reclaiming the Throne, however this is High Adventure...the stuff legends are made of....another thought is how could the PC's in my group get involved with this if it were to begin... Here's Keiths Quote, As noted elsewhere, I can answer questions, but with my current schedule, "tell me your ideas" is not the kind of question I can answer right now. For something like this you should really start a discussion thread... which you have, so right on. With that said, I think Oargev has as much chance of becoming King of Galifar as I do. After a century of war, most humans have a stronger national loyalty than loyalty to the lost dream of Galifar. Oargev has no country. You pointed out that Aundair supported Cyre to begin with... but they weren't supporting it at the end, and Aurala wants to be Queen of Galifar herself. I don't really see Kaius saying "Sure, homeless kid. You'd be a better ruler than I would." Thrane isn't even truly under the rule of a Wynarn heir any more. Q'barra is a possible source of support but has little to offer. If he was to try, I see a few possibilities: *Stir up discontent among the people of all nations, telling them that their problems are the fault of their divided kings and that in a unified Galifar (which no human was alive to see) everything would magicallyy be better. *Raise the rabble. In this, he would undoubtedly receive the support of the Dreaming Dark, mentally helping to raise people's discontent. I'm not saying he'd ASK for this help or know he was getting it... but it's exactly the sort of thing they would do. They want war and discontent within the Five Nations. *Urge Q'barra to support him. Hard sell, however, because they stayed out of the war. *Expose the true nature of a certain undead ruler. *Forge alliances with disenfranchised nations... like Droaam. *Forge alliances with the Dragonmarked Houses... which would require promises that could haunt him in the future. Would he rule Galifar, or would the Twelve? *Forge an alliance with Riedra. *Find some crazy eldritch machine that helps him win support f gives him an overwhelming military advantage. Anyhow, I'm going to stop because I've spent more time on this than I can afford, but you get the idea. I don't see any of the leaders of the Five Nations saying "Oh, yeah, right... You ARE the rightful heir. What were we thinking? We'll gladly abdicate our sovereignity to you, landless Oargev." If he's going to take it back he'll need to start from scratch.
Euangelion 02-06-06, 01:45 PM	Keep in mind a few things: 1.) only Aurala has been described as wanting the throne of Galifar. Diani just wants Thrane back under the monarchy, Kaius III primarily wants the BoV and EC out of Karrnath (though one could argue that his sending of siblings to the other nations is in preparation of having them serve as regents of those nations once he takes back the throne of Galifar), Boranel seems content to rule an independent Breland. Thus I could see Aurala and Oagrev working together to rule Thronehold once again, and the easiest way to do that is for Oargrev to marry a daughter of Aurala. The key thus isn't competeting with others who are after the throne, the key is convincing those who aren't interested in Thronehold not to resist Oargrev's efforts. It's totally a "what's in it for me." 2.) There have been rulers of Galifar who have worshipped the Silver Flame. That's not the problem. The problem was when one of them wanted the throne in order to make Silver Flame faith the one and only official faith of the land. As long as Oargrev isn't making those kinds of noises, he'll be okay, except for Kaius III perhaps. 3.) With Breland, ir'Clarn just wants the Parliament to rule the land, and so an agreement with Oargrev to let that happen just might work, since at that point Breland for all intents and purposes renounces any claim to Thronehold! 4.) What does ruling at Thronehold mean for Oargrev? Complete control over every former territory of Galifar? Not likely to happen, as has been pointed out. But what if it means less, such as a figurehead monarchy that works primarily to rebuild the infrastructure of Khorvaire (such as Cyre!!) and settle disputes between the various nations and powers? That quite possibly could be done. Considering where he's at now, even a symbolic monarchy in Thronehold is a major step up.
Cutlass 02-06-06, 02:08 PM	The only way I see Prince Oargev reasonably getting to be King of a united Galifar goes something like this: 1) The war starts up again. 2) Prince Oargev and New Cyre stay as neutral as humanly possible. 3)Prince Oargev makes an advantageous marriage. 4) Several years later when exhaustion from the war sets in Prince Oargev could attempt to manipulate things such that he could be placed on the throne of Galifar as a "symbolic" monarch just to bring a real end to the fighting. 5) Prince Oargev, now King of Galifar, would have a very interesting time trying to juggle things such that he could slowly increase the power of his "symbolic" monarchy and try to get Cyre rebuilt. 6) Other than some sort of scenario along those lines, I do not see Prince Oargev being able to build his power base in New Cyre to the point either he or his descendants could make a serious try for the throne for at least several generations. At best, he would do well to avoid being squashed like a bug by one of the other contenders on general principles.
Psionycx 02-06-06, 02:12 PM	Essentially, instead of a Roman Empire, you would have a Holy Roman Empire. Basically a confederation rather than a kingdom, and a monarch whose powers are limited to whatever the sub-divisions would be willing to allow. But let's turn this around. Why would any of the people of Aundair, Breland, Karrnath and Thrane want something like this?
Euangelion 02-06-06, 02:15 PM	I believe that if the war were to restart, the first thing to go would be New Cyre. It's too much of a wildcard for Breland to let sit so close to Thrane and Darguun.
Euangelion 02-06-06, 02:21 PM	Essentially, instead of a Roman Empire, you would have a Holy Roman Empire. Basically a confederation rather than a kingdom, and a monarch whose powers are limited to whatever the sub-divisions would be willing to allow. But let's turn this around. Why would any of the people of Aundair, Breland, Karrnath and Thrane want something like this? Would Aundair want help in reclaiming the Eldeen Reaches? Would Karrnath want Valenar to return to the control of the heirs of Galifar? Does anyone really want Darguun hanging around or Droaam full of monsters? Doesn't every nation want the infrastructure to send their goods and services across the continent to boost their economy? It would be a hard sell, to be sure, but not as hard as it would be to convince everyone to return to the way things were before the war. I'm just suggesting that this would be Oargev's best chance, and yet not an easy way to go.
Melvin the Mediocre 02-06-06, 02:47 PM	I've toyed with this idea myself. If I reunite the nations, I think I will start it with a major threat to the 4/5 nations from outside of them. I'm thinking that some artifact my PC's dug up for a dirty/disheveled hobgoblin will reunite the bulk of the goblin clans. Backed by mercenaries from Droamm, and possibly also by the giants of Xen'drik, the hobgobs will seriously threaten an non-unified 5 nations. No kingdom will put their armies under another nation's leader for fear of inadvertatnly backing the new king of Galifar. But Oargev ir' Wynarn has no nation, and will not be seen as a real threat. Using diplomacy and negotiation, he will unite the armies, defeat the threat, and form a "government" that is more similar to the intent of the United Nations than a monarchy. If he begins to gain power and eventually find that he is offered the crown, well he is prepared to deal with that. :)
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 02:50 PM	...another bad post...I hate those...:)
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 02:56 PM	Would Aundair want help in reclaiming the Eldeen Reaches? Would Karrnath want Valenar to return to the control of the heirs of Galifar? Does anyone really want Darguun hanging around or Droaam full of monsters? Doesn't every nation want the infrastructure to send their goods and services across the continent to boost their economy? It would be a hard sell, to be sure, but not as hard as it would be to convince everyone to return to the way things were before the war. I'm just suggesting that this would be Oargev's best chance, and yet not an easy way to go. I agree Euangelion, I think that as a Unified Nation they would be much stronger economically, as well as militaristically. Theres a whole nother thread on what they could accomplish as a unified body of nations, with a singular goal and focus. PS: I had posted in a previous thread, "What you guys thought in regards to rallying the displaced Warforged to Oargevs side, or the Shifter community?" Didnt really get any responces to that. Many Warforged after all consider it their purpose to fight war, would they rally to Oargev, or are their mandates such that they would rally to the Banner of those whom they were initially created to serve? Also what other powerful organizations could stand to benefit from backing Oargevs claims...Like him or not, he is still the rightful heir, and their is still a huge ir' Wynarn presence across Khorvaire. Would it really be so hard to call the people back to the ways of their ancestors, much of Khorvaire was lost due to the pride of the Siblings who would not yield. Perhaps repentance would bring renewed propsperity to the unified Galifar, and allow them to take back what was taken, and reclaim what was lost...Just a thought...
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 03:06 PM	I've toyed with this idea myself. If I reunite the nations, I think I will start it with a major threat to the 4/5 nations from outside of them. I'm thinking that some artifact my PC's dug up for a dirty/disheveled hobgoblin will reunite the bulk of the goblin clans. Backed by mercenaries from Droamm, and possibly also by the giants of Xen'drik, the hobgobs will seriously threaten an non-unified 5 nations. No kingdom will put their armies under another nation's leader for fear of inadvertatnly backing the new king of Galifar. But Oargev ir' Wynarn has no nation, and will not be seen as a real threat. Using diplomacy and negotiation, he will unite the armies, defeat the threat, and form a "government" that is more similar to the intent of the United Nations than a monarchy. If he begins to gain power and eventually find that he is offered the crown, well he is prepared to deal with that. :) Hey Melvin I like that idea, please elaborate on it...I want to know more...
Euangelion 02-06-06, 03:12 PM	Since the sentient warforged are such a recent development, I don't think they're going to know or care about anyone claiming Thronehold. There may be a warforged or two who might, but they'll be the great exceptions. I think that shifters will go with the way that the wind blows where they live. I don't think that they'll have any particular reason to want Oargev on the throne or a reunited Galifar as a race. Keep in mind that it was the Code of Galifar that gave the CotSF the legal right to lead the Lycanthrope Purge. Eldeen shifters in particular probably feel that they're better off under Oalian than under Galifar!
Melvin the Mediocre 02-06-06, 03:30 PM	Hey Melvin I like that idea, please elaborate on it...I want to know more... I'm a real "fly by the seat of my pants" style DM, and I'm not anywhere near this stage in my game. As a result I don't have very solid plans around this idea. But if you ask questions or make suggestions we could develop it together. The only thing I can already add is that I see him having a small band of impoverished knights or woodsmen loyal to him that will join with a larger force when the war erupts. As commanders over him fall or yield to his wisdom he will grow as a defacto leader of a medium army unit, even if he doesn't rule it in name. He will be invited to more and more strategy sessions and gain more and more respect, possibly working along side a few different nations armies. At some point I envision a major battle that will require at least 3 nations armies- without them united the clans will almost certainly win the war. I haven't decided exactly what that battle will be fought over yet, I'd have to study the map for a while and figure out the hob's strategy. At any rate the generals/kings/etc will begin to squabble over who will lead the combined armies. Eventually Oargev ir' Wynarn's name will come up. The other leaders will see him as wise, effective, and cunning leader. However with no real nation behind him, he has no wealth no army and no seat of power. Therefore no one believes him capable of maintaining any power over their countries once the 4 armies split up. Maybe once the war is over he will suggest that a small unified peace force needs to be held together to guard against future assaults. Or that the Lord of Blades need to be dealt with before he launches an attack on the already weakened nations. At any rate, he will try to gain power as a negotiator and international law maker, not through force of arms.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-06-06, 03:42 PM	Oargrev's best chance is to marry a daughter of either Boranel, Aurala, or Kaius II, especially if one of them is in line for the throne of that country. Isn't he related to those women? Eventually Oargev ir' Wynarn's name will come up. The other leaders will see him as wise, effective, and cunning leader. That's not a guarantee, either. Even a wise and effective leader can make mistakes or just have bad luck.
Melvin the Mediocre 02-06-06, 04:30 PM	Isn't he related to those women? That's not a guarantee, either. Even a wise and effective leader can make mistakes or just have bad luck. Of course its a guarantee. It's my campaign. :) Seriously, this post was explaining how I think I might reunite the kingdoms in my game. It was not intended to say this is what should happen in anyone else's game, just a suggetion if someone else wants to follow along a similar vein.
Euangelion 02-06-06, 05:38 PM	Isn't he related to those women? It's amazing at what lengths royals will go to preserve power through their bloodlines. They are more distantly related than many royal marriages even in the modern real world, not to mention medieval and renaissance Europe. Again, I'm not saying it's a good idea in and of itself, I'm just suggesting that it's an option for the truly desperate "king without a kingdom."
Charles Phipps 02-06-06, 06:32 PM	Phase 62: We nuke it from orbit after launching Khovaire to the moon... Oh sorry, that's Leonardo Leonardo's plan. Evil Mastermind Oargev's Plot to become King of Galifar 1. Prince Oargev assembles most of the former citizens of Cyre in New Cyre and makes it a thriving city with grand architecture and the like. This gives him some economic clout and a position of debate. 2. Prince Oargev proceeds to ask for King Boranal's recognition of his status as King of the Mournlands/Cyre and there's a coronation ceremony as he is named King Oargev of Cyre and signs a treaty with Breland that formally recognizes the two nations are at peace. 3. King Oargev proceeds to contact the Lord of Blades and Merrix D'Cannith as his old Cyrean spy network has picked up some stuff about the two. New Cyre will benefit from recovered materials from the Mournlands as he trades New Warforged and war materials through New Cyre to the Mournlands. The Triumviant of Darkness proceeds to make Oargev a far wealthier man plus also having access to the Lord of Blades' power. 4. King Oargev proceeds to denounce the claim of the Valenar to the Lands that they control and that they are in fact Cyrean lands. He privately makes an arrangement with King Kaius to prepare for a war with the Valenar elves to distract the Karrnathians from their troubles abroad, he promises to provide the aid of warforged for this conflict through the Lord of Blades, playing the two off one another. 5. King Oargev begins courting King Boranal's daughter. 6. King Oargev makes New Cyre a haven for warforged that want to live in peace with humans and they flood the ranks of the city. He challenges the Treaty that no new warforged should be made and they should be allowed to have children. 7. King Oargev hires adventurers during the Valenar/Lord of Blades/Karrnathian war to assassinate the Lord of Blades as he arms the local populous of humans with weaponry to rise up against Valenar elves. King Oargev uses magic to charm and dominate the lieutenants of the Lord of Blades as he promises a warforged place of prominence in Cyre for their allegiance. 8. King Oargev hires the adventurers to make a mad dash into Karrnath where having discovered through privtae means that King Kaius is a vampire, he kidnaps the real King Kaius as he makes private overtures to the Emerald Claw. The Emerald Claw receptive to King Oargev's plot to make a Blood of Vol state proceed then to eliminate many of the powerful Sovereign Host supporting warlords. The adventurers are then sent to help King Kaius the vampire rally eliminate the headquarters of the Emerald Claw in karrnath. 9. King Oargev forces King Kaius the Real to swear homage to him as he perhaps employs psionicists or simply uses his broken spirit to make the man his puppet. The undead obey the King of Karrnath and King Oargev places kaius on the throne as he secures Valenar with human troopers. 10. King Oargev now ruler of Valenar, Karrnath, New Cyre, and the Mournlands then proceeds to marry in secret the Queen of Karrnath and fosters a revolt with Cardinal Kronzen (where Kronzen is murdered in the end) and has Jaela force Thrane to be a secular state once more. The bishops are forced to choose to become noblemen or return to secular duties. 11. Merrix D'Cannith having taken fully of House Cannith at this time works on his own plots to take over fully the Twelve and replace it with Oargev supporting puppets. The economic host of Khovaire is behind Oargev. 12. The Queen of Thrane dies under "mysterious circumstances" (probably framing Aundair for it) as King Oargev has already sired an heir by her. He works to employ massive mercenary numbers from Dargunn and offers to aid Reidra gain greater support as he prepares for war. Oargev offers a last minute alliance with Boranal via marriage. 13. King Oargev prepares his massive armies for clashing with Aundair as he privately arranges for a transfer of Thaliost and a promise of conquest for the Eldeen Reaches midway during the war with Aurala and her brother eliminated and the General placed in Regency. 14. Oargev declares himself Emperor of all Khovaire.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-06-06, 07:21 PM	LOL...Charles Phipps There is something most dreadfully wrong with you my friend. That is so so twisted...:) Any ideas how the Good Oargev could mastermind his ascension to the throne?...Just wondering, any thoughts would be great. You are definately the longest post thus far, and you do show a good deal of attention to detail, I would love to hear your thoughts on how a good Oargev could accomplish this, so as to not cover the world in a 2nd Darkness.... :D
maollelujah 02-06-06, 08:20 PM	Phase 62: We nuke it from orbit after launching Khovaire to the moon... Oh sorry, that's Leonardo Leonardo's plan. Evil Mastermind Oargev's Plot to become King of Galifar 1. Prince Oargev assembles most of the former citizens of Cyre in New Cyre and makes it a thriving city with grand architecture and the like. This gives him some economic clout and a position of debate. 2. Prince Oargev proceeds to ask for King Boranal's recognition of his status as King of the Mournlands/Cyre and there's a coronation ceremony as he is named King Oargev of Cyre and signs a treaty with Breland that formally recognizes the two nations are at peace. 3. King Oargev proceeds to contact the Lord of Blades and Merrix D'Cannith as his old Cyrean spy network has picked up some stuff about the two. New Cyre will benefit from recovered materials from the Mournlands as he trades New Warforged and war materials through New Cyre to the Mournlands. The Triumviant of Darkness proceeds to make Oargev a far wealthier man plus also having access to the Lord of Blades' power. 4. King Oargev proceeds to denounce the claim of the Valenar to the Lands that they control and that they are in fact Cyrean lands. He privately makes an arrangement with King Kaius to prepare for a war with the Valenar elves to distract the Karrnathians from their troubles abroad, he promises to provide the aid of warforged for this conflict through the Lord of Blades, playing the two off one another. 5. King Oargev begins courting King Boranal's daughter. 6. King Oargev makes New Cyre a haven for warforged that want to live in peace with humans and they flood the ranks of the city. He challenges the Treaty that no new warforged should be made and they should be allowed to have children. 7. King Oargev hires adventurers during the Valenar/Lord of Blades/Karrnathian war to assassinate the Lord of Blades as he arms the local populous of humans with weaponry to rise up against Valenar elves. King Oargev uses magic to charm and dominate the lieutenants of the Lord of Blades as he promises a warforged place of prominence in Cyre for their allegiance. 8. King Oargev hires the adventurers to make a mad dash into Karrnath where having discovered through privtae means that King Kaius is a vampire, he kidnaps the real King Kaius as he makes private overtures to the Emerald Claw. The Emerald Claw receptive to King Oargev's plot to make a Blood of Vol state proceed then to eliminate many of the powerful Sovereign Host supporting warlords. The adventurers are then sent to help King Kaius the vampire rally eliminate the headquarters of the Emerald Claw in karrnath. 9. King Oargev forces King Kaius the Real to swear homage to him as he perhaps employs psionicists or simply uses his broken spirit to make the man his puppet. The undead obey the King of Karrnath and King Oargev places kaius on the throne as he secures Valenar with human troopers. 10. King Oargev now ruler of Valenar, Karrnath, New Cyre, and the Mournlands then proceeds to marry in secret the Queen of Karrnath and fosters a revolt with Cardinal Kronzen (where Kronzen is murdered in the end) and has Jaela force Thrane to be a secular state once more. The bishops are forced to choose to become noblemen or return to secular duties. 11. Merrix D'Cannith having taken fully of House Cannith at this time works on his own plots to take over fully the Twelve and replace it with Oargev supporting puppets. The economic host of Khovaire is behind Oargev. 12. The Queen of Thrane dies under "mysterious circumstances" (probably framing Aundair for it) as King Oargev has already sired an heir by her. He works to employ massive mercenary numbers from Dargunn and offers to aid Reidra gain greater support as he prepares for war. Oargev offers a last minute alliance with Boranal via marriage. 13. King Oargev prepares his massive armies for clashing with Aundair as he privately arranges for a transfer of Thaliost and a promise of conquest for the Eldeen Reaches midway during the war with Aurala and her brother eliminated and the General placed in Regency. 14. Oargev declares himself Emperor of all Khovaire. 15. King Oargev is assassinated during is coronation by his magical guard. 16. And out of the chaotic midst rises five noble inspiring commanders from his army and they promise to lead Khovaire into a more peaceful era. All magic users are rounded up and sent to Indoctrination Camps, never to be seen again... Or it might just be: 1. Prince Oargrev gets most of the Cyran survivors to settle in New Cyre and builds his New Capital, but since the town is not on a major trade route, and isn't sitting on top of the mother lode, the word of the day remains poor. 2. As New Cyre struggles through the hard times, as it neither has money to build things correctly and because of foolish plans of their self-proclaimed leader, the people of New Cyre learn from the Brelish hosts, and strip him of his titles... 3. The former Prince, now just a mere citizen, dies a lonely broken man on a small estate just outside the city he found...
Charles Phipps 02-06-06, 08:32 PM	Or it might just be: 1. Prince Oargrev gets most of the Cyran survivors to settle in New Cyre and builds his New Capital, but since the town is not on a major trade route, and isn't sitting on top of the mother lode, the word of the day remains poor. 2. As New Cyre struggles through the hard times, as it neither has money to build things correctly and because of foolish plans of their self-proclaimed leader, the people of New Cyre learn from the Brelish hosts, and strip him of his titles... 3. The former Prince, now just a mere citizen, dies a lonely broken man on a small estate just outside the city he found... He wanted ways for a unified Galifar, I would presume that in that case that it would hardly not be the case in his gameworld. It's important to note that "our" visions should not always impact there. I doubt that's the case for 1, 2, or 3 I did like the 5 commanders bit, was that a reference to Alexander the Great?
Kaleanae en'i Mori 02-06-06, 10:18 PM	This is a cool discussion! After recently discussing this with a Co-DM we are toying to Epic style situations. The beauty of this is we all get ti decide the future of the world! :) So we are toying with having perhaps part of the Mournlands change back to Cyre. There is a line in Five nations that goes something like. "Cyre was the purple jewel inthe crown of Galifar" Whilst this I think is perhaps purely a description of who beautiful Cyre was, whats to say that the Crown of Galifar, which I reckon is stashed in Thronehold has five big jewels or dragonshards in it. Beign that its been locked away for about 100 years no one may notice the the purple jewel representing Cyre is no longer in it!! Gee and Cyre is no more..... Being that the explosion that destroyed Cyre was in the City of Making which is no more, perhaps those devious little Cannith fellow built an eldritch machine of mass destruction but need a powerful shard to activate it. Thus led them to the crown and they stole it! The shard s is scattered, thus begin the adventure... restore the crown, restore Cyre... Well an idea.. Or since Diani want her throne back why not marry the Cyran Prince, together they may just be able to take onteh Silver Flame with some help! Or Diani could offer for his support the Thalios region and create a buffer between Thrane and Aundiar. Aurala would hate that! Karrnath I think would support it :)
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-06-06, 10:58 PM	It's amazing at what lengths royals will go to preserve power through their bloodlines. They are more distantly related than many royal marriages even in the modern real world, not to mention medieval and renaissance Europe. Again, I'm not saying it's a good idea in and of itself, I'm just suggesting that it's an option for the truly desperate "king without a kingdom." Putting aside genetics, I don't think any other king or queen would let Orgaev marry their children anyway, precisely because that could increase his power. I wonder, if Orgaev does really well, if he could get the Cyrans out of Sharn and to new Cyre. Something makes me doubt that, however.
Charles Phipps 02-06-06, 11:42 PM	Putting aside genetics, I don't think any other king or queen would let Orgaev marry their children anyway, precisely because that could increase his power. I wonder, if Orgaev does really well, if he could get the Cyrans out of Sharn and to new Cyre. Something makes me doubt that, however. I think its important to note that after three years, the primary motivation of most monarchs is not "screw Cyre" anymore, even though I imagine there's still much bad blood. It really is now 'How do I increase my power and what can Oargev give me' I think only Aundair really has something to fear from a resurgent Cyre because Oargev isn't going to forgive having his country pretended to not exist anytime soon.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 12:08 AM	Arghh...another bad post, my internet connection has been screwed up fo the last 2 days...its really starting to make me mad....
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 12:10 AM	I think its important to note that after three years, the primary motivation of most monarchs is not "screw Cyre" anymore, even though I imagine there's still much bad blood. It really is now 'How do I increase my power and what can Oargev give me' I think only Aundair really has something to fear from a resurgent Cyre because Oargev isn't going to forgive having his country pretended to not exist anytime soon. What exactly do you mean? Do you think that no one fears Oargev, in regards to what he represents; Galifars rightful heir, or do you think that thats where all the bad blood comes from to begin with, FEAR? Another question that I have is why did Aundair initially support Mishanns claim and then rinig. I found a bit shocking that Cyre's one ally would be one of the main nations to close their doors to Cyre's refugees, and Breland, an intial enemy to Mishanns succesion/claim would open its doors...Just food for thought... :)
Charles Phipps 02-07-06, 12:15 AM	What exactly do you mean? Do you think that no one fears Oargev, in regards to what he represents; Galifars rightful heir, or do you think that thats where all the bad blood comes from to begin with, FEAR? Another question that I have is why did Aundair initially support Mishanns claim and then rinig. I found a bit shocking that Cyre's one ally would be one of the main nations to close their doors to Cyre's refugees, and Breland, an intial enemy to Mishanns succesion/claim would open its doors...Just food for thought... :) I think as of now no one is afraid whatsoever of Prince Oargev's claim. No One. It's sort of like Hamlet and his his Uncle. The question over whom inherits is not a smooth one as a direct one to one lineage and more or less Cyre lost all right to the title when its original monarch died and was never crowned. The line was broken at that point. The bad blood comes primarily from the fact that all of them grew up in a time when the other enemy was bent on wiping them out, enslaving, or conquering them. No, what people are afraid of is the other monarchs now and their huge armies. Oargev is now "safe' because he has no real power but what you give him...and his mind. That's why Oargev is the most dangerous of all. No one is afraid.
Cutlass 02-07-06, 01:08 AM	No, what people are afraid of is the other monarchs now and their huge armies. Oargev is now "safe' because he has no real power but what you give him...and his mind. That's why Oargev is the most dangerous of all. No one is afraid. In fact, given that Oargev is in some sense "safe" (no massive power base to build from) it is possible that he might get under the table support from the gnomes of Zilargo for bringing about some sort of diplomatic resolution of all this nonsense. Consider that they would aguably prefer to see the peace maintained as that's better for Zilargo's business interests and less risky for Zilargo as a whole. While the gnomes are currently allied with Breland, I'm sure they can see all the potential problems looming with the Brelish succession. However, if they were to channel support to Oargev that he could use to improve his position and bring more stability, then they would see it as a "win", especially if they could help Oargev engineer a situation where he ends up as a "symbolic" king of Galifar. That way the gnomes would have peace, stability, and the "king" in their pocket. I'm also sure that they are arrogant enough to think that they're subtle enough that they'd have a decent chance of pulling that off without getting caught at it. ;)
Euangelion 02-07-06, 01:12 AM	Another thing to consider is whether or not there are powerful magic items that respond only to the true heir of Galifar. It's been a long time since anyone's been in certain parts of Thronehold, I'm sure, so anything is possible. (Kind of like the conspiracy theorists who insist that once a person is elected President of the United States they are told of the truth regarding the aliens of Area 51! ;) ) Perhaps one ruler remembers, and that's why his ultimate goal is to find a way to claim the throne, but his main problem is that there's a snowball's chance in Fernia that he'll be able to lay claim to the throne in his current state. Perhaps, however, there's an item within the castle that would help him with his problem, if only the rightful heir to the throne takes up the crown of Galifar, so he may support Oargev just for that reason. Then again, a visit to Flamekeep could do it too, but that would be a lot riskier! Wouldn't that be interesting, the other nations allowing Oargev to take the throne as a symbolic gesture, not knowing exactly what power lies under his control once he does? By the way, one option for Oargev to marry (when she's old enough) is Haydith of Karrnath but who is living in Breland. She's so popular there that she may indeed be able to bring both Karrnath and Breland to the table.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 01:13 AM	I think as of now no one is afraid whatsoever of Prince Oargev's claim. No One. It's sort of like Hamlet and his his Uncle. The question over whom inherits is not a smooth one as a direct one to one lineage and more or less Cyre lost all right to the title when its original monarch died and was never crowned. The line was broken at that point. The bad blood comes primarily from the fact that all of them grew up in a time when the other enemy was bent on wiping them out, enslaving, or conquering them. No, what people are afraid of is the other monarchs now and their huge armies. Oargev is now "safe' because he has no real power but what you give him...and his mind. That's why Oargev is the most dangerous of all. No one is afraid. Well what would you do with him? The good version? :) How would you play him out? Also who are the major players, or power groups who would benefit from him coming to power, forging a unified Galifar, and was the line really broken when Mishann died...would it not have followed her line until a succesor was chosen, or would it have shifted to the next sibling in line...What would Galifar the 1st have done in this situation, whom would he have appointed High King, or Queen?
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 01:20 AM	In fact, given that Oargev is in some sense "safe" (no massive power base to build from) it is possible that he might get under the table support from the gnomes of Zilargo for bringing about some sort of diplomatic resolution of all this nonsense. Consider that they would aguably prefer to see the peace maintained as that's better for Zilargo's business interests and less risky for Zilargo as a whole. While the gnomes are currently allied with Breland, I'm sure they can see all the potential problems looming with the Brelish succession. However, if they were to channel support to Oargev that he could use to improve his position and bring more stability, then they would see it as a "win", especially if they could help Oargev engineer a situation where he ends up as a "symbolic" king of Galifar. That way the gnomes would have peace, stability, and the "king" in their pocket. I'm also sure that they are arrogant enough to think that they're subtle enough that they'd have a decent chance of pulling that off without getting caught at it. ;) Please elaborate on the Gnome idea, how could they pull that off without really making the Brelish Crown angry, and possibly causing problems for Oargev directly...can you flesh the idea out a bit more if you dont mind...?
Charles Phipps 02-07-06, 01:29 AM	Well what would you do with him? The good version? :) How would you play him out? Also who are the major players, or power groups who would benefit from him coming to power, forging a unified Galifar, and was the line really broken when Mishann died...would it not have followed her line until a succesor was chosen, or would it have shifted to the next sibling in line...What would Galifar the 1st have done in this situation, whom would he have appointed High King, or Queen? The trick again is that there's no real answer to the last question. That's why it's a "claim" to the throne rather than "The throne is his." Monarchies were less centralized governments than people give them credit for being because the claim is enforced by the lesser nobility. King Stephen and the Empress Maud for example (whose child was Henry the Second). Oargev could legitimaley claim the line passed through him, however one of the most fascinating pieces of English monarchial history is the fact that while King Henry the Fourth was a usurper when he executed Richard the Second....King Henry the Fifth was the legitimate son of the King. At least according to the idea of "divine transubstation", "divine right", etc guiding it. *** My version of Prince Oargev is sort of an individual whom was never expected to become King of Cyre. He was the youngest sibling and frankly was allowed to more or less become a playboy. The character of Prince Oargev still largely apes the presence of being a playboy to a large extent but he's been hugely traumatized by his circumstances and the loss of his family plus his entire homeland. The humiliation that he suffered when Aundair more or less refused to admit him to the Treaty of Thronehold has never been forgotten either. He's a man whom is friendly and well intentioned but obsessed with building a new home for his people and doing whatever it takes. Oargev I place as a very well educated King and also perhaps the most cultured as well as crafty in terms of politics. He measures his words more carefully and more cautiously than any other monarch given their situation is so precarious. He has more drive than any of the other monarchs for making a new Cyre and he'll do whatever he must to get it. Groups that might support Oargev I see are... Riedra: The Sarlonan pawns of the Quori might believe that there is a strong benefit to meddling in the affairs of Khovaire directly if they believe that there's more benefit to jeopardizing their neutrality than there is to not. They could supply immense amount of gold into his pockets, troops, and also the benefit of a powerful voice of support for the man. Conversely... Kalashatar: Might see Oargev in a situation where they could gain some genuine position in Khovaire by associating with the political situation. What they could offer is far less than Riedra but they would be significantly more dedicated with their ability to control minds and psionics potentially being a powerful tool for warding off enemies or changing the minds of foes. Either would benefit from a unified Galifar out to protect their claim. The Emerald Claw: Erandis D'Vol made one King into an undead horror, she might be willing to do the same to another and if anyone can control the vast amounts of undead in the Mournland (and use them to conquer another land) then it would be the Lich Queen. Q'Barra: The nation of Q'Barra is already paying allegiance to "Galifar" and Oargev with sufficient force behind himself could simply get himself named King of the Land and "true Emperor" if he wasn't worried about the Brelish reaction. The Twelve: The financial benefits of a united Khovaire is far higher but the question is how do you get them to associate with you as opposed to preserving their neutrality. The Sisters of Sora Kell: In exchange for being recognized as 'true nobles' then they'd probably be willing to supply all the monsters in the world. They more than anything just want to be part of the courtly life despite their nonhuman origins. Warforged: The Lord of Blades controls only a small minority of the race and there's fifty thousand of them, twice the size of the Mournland survivors. They mostly want to just be recognized as people and many would want an egalitarian society where they're allowed to create new warforged.
Errant 02-07-06, 01:44 AM	Seems to me Oargev's greatest disadvantage is his lack of influence & support in the other nations. What if Oargev had an ally that could move amongst the nobility of all the nations, subtly building up the tales of united galifar's golden age, along with spreading word of Oargev's successes and good qualities? Lets say Oargev has grown to be a good, wise, brave & inspirational commander through building up New Cyre on the edge of the Mournlands. Now imagine the leader(s) of House Phiarlan (or Thuranni) are heading for New Cyre when they are attacked by overwhelming monsters that have strayed out of the Mournland. All seems lost until Oargev leads a band of New Cyrans in attacking the monsters and saving the elven "entertainers". In the aftermath, Oargev, having already made a good first impression, impresses the Phiarlan leaders so much they are reminded of the true kings of Galifar. Grateful, and seeing an opportunity to form a mutually very advantagous alliance, they start pulling strings. The word goes out to all Phiarlan entertainers to play up the glories of the Golden Age of Galifar, laying the foundation for sentimental support. Then orders go out to all Phiarlan agents, to feel out and build up those of influence that might support a rightful claimant to Thronehold regardless of their current allegiance. Tales of Oargev's successes in building up New Cyre and defending it from Mournland border dangers are spread. Whispered rumours are spread that his success in virtually impossible circumstances is due to being a true heir to the throne of Galifar. A few years of that, and Oargev could become a household name across the Five Kingdoms associated with the glories of a golden age of peace and plenty. At the same time, spread destabilizing rumours and influence across the exhisting Five Nations: Kaius' true nature is revealed to a selected few of his warlords while the real Kaius II is sprung from his prison; Aurala and Diani are convinced to trade Thaliost for support to Diani's moves against the Church of the Silver Flame; Diani is encouraged in her ambitions and aided in organising loyal nobles of the old faiths; ir'Clarn is "persuaded" that a weak king is better than civil war; Darguun and Droam are offered aid, recognition and status as member states equal to the Five Nations if they can live peacefully with their neighbours; the Valenar are secretly offered a prestigous role as the High King's Guard, enforcing the king's peace across the Five Nations, if Oargev is recognised as the true heir to Thronehold. Mix in an advantageous marriage, a pledge to rule all nations as equal member states, a track record for just and fair rule and diplomacy as leader of New Cyre. Stir in civil conflict across the Five Nations. Add a few dozen influential nobles persuaded or blackmailed into supporting him, and Oargev could find himself asked to take up the throne. There are lots of obstacles of course, but it doesn't seem impossible to me. Just my impressions, built on the prior posts in this thread of course. :cool:
Charles Phipps 02-07-06, 01:57 AM	Or Oargev could do the Darth Sidious' route... With his apprentice the Lord of Blades, Darth Oargev arranges a war with the Mournlands as all the Kings and Queens are attacked by the endless armies of the undead of the united forces of the Lord of Blades, some Dragonmarked Houses, and the Emerald Claw. Darth Oargev meanwhile serves as a neutral go-betweener for all the various armies as they clash and struggle to cooperate against them. All the while as his agents sabotage the various war efforts. At the end, there is a concentrated "terrorist attack" that wipes out the Royal Families of all five nations (and the Cardinals) except for Oargevs pawns while he steps up to provide stability as a seasoned military leader. His cronies make him Emperor.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 02:01 AM	The trick again is that there's no real answer to the last question. That's why it's a "claim" to the throne rather than "The throne is his." Monarchies were less centralized governments than people give them credit for being because the claim is enforced by the lesser nobility. King Stephen and the Empress Maud for example (whose child was Henry the Second). Oargev could legitimaley claim the line passed through him, however one of the most fascinating pieces of English monarchial history is the fact that while King Henry the Fourth was a usurper when he executed Richard the Second....King Henry the Fifth was the legitimate son of the King. At least according to the idea of "divine transubstation", "divine right", etc guiding it. *** My version of Prince Oargev is sort of an individual whom was never expected to become King of Cyre. He was the youngest sibling and frankly was allowed to more or less become a playboy. The character of Prince Oargev still largely apes the presence of being a playboy to a large extent but he's been hugely traumatized by his circumstances and the loss of his family plus his entire homeland. The humiliation that he suffered when Aundair more or less refused to admit him to the Treaty of Thronehold has never been forgotten either. He's a man whom is friendly and well intentioned but obsessed with building a new home for his people and doing whatever it takes. Oargev I place as a very well educated King and also perhaps the most cultured as well as crafty in terms of politics. He measures his words more carefully and more cautiously than any other monarch given their situation is so precarious. He has more drive than any of the other monarchs for making a new Cyre and he'll do whatever he must to get it. Groups that might support Oargev I see are... Riedra: The Sarlonan pawns of the Quori might believe that there is a strong benefit to meddling in the affairs of Khovaire directly if they believe that there's more benefit to jeopardizing their neutrality than there is to not. They could supply immense amount of gold into his pockets, troops, and also the benefit of a powerful voice of support for the man. Conversely... Kalashatar: Might see Oargev in a situation where they could gain some genuine position in Khovaire by associating with the political situation. What they could offer is far less than Riedra but they would be significantly more dedicated with their ability to control minds and psionics potentially being a powerful tool for warding off enemies or changing the minds of foes. Either would benefit from a unified Galifar out to protect their claim. The Emerald Claw: Erandis D'Vol made one King into an undead horror, she might be willing to do the same to another and if anyone can control the vast amounts of undead in the Mournland (and use them to conquer another land) then it would be the Lich Queen. Q'Barra: The nation of Q'Barra is already paying allegiance to "Galifar" and Oargev with sufficient force behind himself could simply get himself named King of the Land and "true Emperor" if he wasn't worried about the Brelish reaction. The Twelve: The financial benefits of a united Khovaire is far higher but the question is how do you get them to associate with you as opposed to preserving their neutrality. The Sisters of Sora Kell: In exchange for being recognized as 'true nobles' then they'd probably be willing to supply all the monsters in the world. They more than anything just want to be part of the courtly life despite their nonhuman origins. Warforged: The Lord of Blades controls only a small minority of the race and there's fifty thousand of them, twice the size of the Mournland survivors. They mostly want to just be recognized as people and many would want an egalitarian society where they're allowed to create new warforged. I like you :) , if you are ever in Atlanta, Ga and looking for a game let me know. I could always use a talented assistant GM. That is no way intended to be an insult. I think you are quite capable of running your own game. I just thinks its very cool and can be alot of fun when you have 2 people working on an idea, and looking to create an epic campaign. I think that you have some really cool ideas in regards to power players. I am especially interested in your ideas/thoughts about Qbarra, the Kalashtar, is it "The Daughters of Sora Kell", or "The Sisters of Sora Kell", and the Warforged, can we flesh those ideas out somemore, and also. What do you think about Oargev demanding that the "Thronehold Accords" be revisted and that reparations be made for the outrageous insult of not being given a voice when the Treaty was signed at Thronehold. Not only was his homeland destroyed, but he was further insulted by not being given his birthright amongst the other ir'Wynarns in having a voice. This could also be a great way for him to further build New Cyre; from the gold and tribute from Aurala and the other offending party...What do you think?
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 02:14 AM	Seems to me Oargev's greatest disadvantage is his lack of influence & support in the other nations. What if Oargev had an ally that could move amongst the nobility of all the nations, subtly building up the tales of united galifar's golden age, along with spreading word of Oargev's successes and good qualities? Lets say Oargev has grown to be a good, wise, brave & inspirational commander through building up New Cyre on the edge of the Mournlands. Now imagine the leader(s) of House Phiarlan (or Thuranni) are heading for New Cyre when they are attacked by overwhelming monsters that have strayed out of the Mournland. All seems lost until Oargev leads a band of New Cyrans in attacking the monsters and saving the elven "entertainers". In the aftermath, Oargev, having already made a good first impression, impresses the Phiarlan leaders so much they are reminded of the true kings of Galifar. Grateful, and seeing an opportunity to form a mutually very advantagous alliance, they start pulling strings. The word goes out to all Phiarlan entertainers to play up the glories of the Golden Age of Galifar, laying the foundation for sentimental support. Then orders go out to all Phiarlan agents, to feel out and build up those of influence that might support a rightful claimant to Thronehold regardless of their current allegiance. Tales of Oargev's successes in building up New Cyre and defending it from Mournland border dangers are spread. Whispered rumours are spread that his success in virtually impossible circumstances is due to being a true heir to the throne of Galifar. A few years of that, and Oargev could become a household name across the Five Kingdoms associated with the glories of a golden age of peace and plenty. At the same time, spread destabilizing rumours and influence across the exhisting Five Nations: Kaius' true nature is revealed to a selected few of his warlords while the real Kaius II is sprung from his prison; Aurala and Diani are convinced to trade Thaliost for support to Diani's moves against the Church of the Silver Flame; Diani is encouraged in her ambitions and aided in organising loyal nobles of the old faiths; ir'Clarn is "persuaded" that a weak king is better than civil war; Darguun and Droam are offered aid, recognition and status as member states equal to the Five Nations if they can live peacefully with their neighbours; the Valenar are secretly offered a prestigous role as the High King's Guard, enforcing the king's peace across the Five Nations, if Oargev is recognised as the true heir to Thronehold. Mix in an advantageous marriage, a pledge to rule all nations as equal member states, a track record for just and fair rule and diplomacy as leader of New Cyre. Stir in civil conflict across the Five Nations. Add a few dozen influential nobles persuaded or blackmailed into supporting him, and Oargev could find himself asked to take up the throne. There are lots of obstacles of course, but it doesn't seem impossible to me. Just my impressions, built on the prior posts in this thread of course. :cool: Dude, that is an amazing concept, and I could totally see it happening because it brings in a neutral party; House Phiarlan/Thuranni into the whole thing doing what they do anyway, except this time its tales and songs of the "Old Ways of Galifar", and the really cool part about it is that they have lived long enough to remember the "Old Ways" my only main concern is would the Valenar Elves be insulted to be offered such a job. ie: Defending Galifar, would they not have a certain arrogance toward being asked to serve a man, especially given their background, would they consider it almost like subjegation...?
Charles Phipps 02-07-06, 02:39 AM	I took it as a compliment. Basically, the only problem with Oargev's demands is that they'd be laughed at. Most of the people of Khovaire don't really LIKE the Cyreans. They blame them for the deaths of a large number of their citizenry. Oargev doesn't have any position to enforce demands because he's got nothing. It's like Afghanistan enforcing demands on the Soviet Union for their invasion. If he'd want to enforce Aurala to pay a penalty then he'd need the Twelve or the other three Nations behind him. They'd want to tweak Aurala's nose for something. In Q'Barra's case, the nation is more or less the last remaining bastion of Galifar. They're citizens who don't identify themselves as citizens of Breland or Aundair and ironically by identifying themselves as Galifarians they've distanced themselves from every other part of the Empire by their choice. Anyone whom is willing to claim the title of Emperor will get their allegiance but the real question is whether they believe he is truly legitimately the Emperor. In Oargev's case I imagine he could probably get their loyalty even in canon Eberron. The Kalashatar need allies against Reidra badly honestly and they won't look a gift horse in the mouth. If New Cyre becomes a haven for their race, the biggest question is merely what to do if Reidra somehow influences people against them...which is a very big danger. However, if the Kalashatar can prevent that then the nation may triple in size. The Warforged are the most problematic but they can't reproduce under the Treaty of Thronehold and they're largely outcasts in many nations like Thrane. It's possible that Oargev as a progressive force could win the allegiance of many of them. The only problem is that many still are patriots to their former cause. A lot would be inclined to join up with Cyre though.
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 03:09 AM	Hey here is another concept for you all to play around with. This would envole the PC's in a mighty way, if the whole Oargev thing actually came to war, understanding that Eberrons greatest heroes have yet to be made. Check this out, I dont know how many of you read the Bible, but there are two groups of men which actually may be one and the same, I am actually researching it to find out, that were extraordinarily great in battle; The Gadites: 1 Chronicles 12:8-15 8 Some Gadites defected to David at his stronghold in the desert. They were brave warriors, ready for battle and able to handle the shield and spear. Their faces were the faces of lions, and they were as swift as gazelles in the mountains. 9 Ezer was the chief, Obadiah the second in command, Eliab the third, 10 Mishmannah the fourth, Jeremiah the fifth, 11 Attai the sixth, Eliel the seventh, 12 Johanan the eighth, Elzabad the ninth, 13 Jeremiah the tenth and Macbannai the eleventh. 14 These Gadites were army commanders; the least was a match for a hundred, and the greatest for a thousand. 15 It was they who crossed the Jordan in the first month when it was overflowing all its banks, and they put to flight everyone living in the valleys, to the east and to the west. And Davids "Mighty Men" 1 Chronicles 11:10-11 10 These were the chiefs of David's mighty men—they, together with all Israel, gave his kingship strong support to extend it over the whole land, as the LORD had promised- 11 this is the list of David's mighty men: 2 Samuel 23:8-11 8 These are the names of David's mighty men: Josheb-Basshebeth, [b] a Tahkemonite, [c] was chief of the Three; he raised his spear against eight hundred men, whom he killed [d] in one encounter. 9 Next to him was Eleazar son of Dodai the Ahohite. As one of the three mighty men, he was with David when they taunted the Philistines gathered at Pas Dammim [e] for battle. Then the men of Israel retreated, 10 but he stood his ground and struck down the Philistines till his hand grew tired and froze to the sword. The LORD brought about a great victory that day. The troops returned to Eleazar, but only to strip the dead. 11 Next to him was Shammah son of Agee the Hararite. When the Philistines banded together at a place where there was a field full of lentils, Israel's troops fled from them. 12 But Shammah took his stand in the middle of the field. He defended it and struck the Philistines down, and the LORD brought about a great victory. Imagine if some how, and I have a few rough ideas, Oargev was to win the support of the PC's to his claim. Considering that they are to become some of the Worlds Greatest Heroes, if not THE GREATEST, their support could be a major turning factor, as well as significantly boost Oargevs military might. If of course they could be won to his cause. I imagine the PC's standing against mighty armies, either together as a unit, or individually, and carving a place in the history of the world. "When his day is done, only let it be said that few stood against many" What do you guys think?
Euangelion 02-07-06, 09:58 AM	Well, sure the PCs are the major wildcard here. If and when they become sufficiently powerful and connected, their word and actions could make all the different for Oargev. Also, about the Dragonmarked Houses, doesn't the ECS specifically state that all of the DMHs have gone out of their way to post representatives in New Cyre? It sure sounds like they could be persuaded to back Oargev. Keep in mind that Deneith has one of the largest armies on Khorvaire and some within that House have been considering carving out a nation for the 12 to call home. Perhaps if Oargev pledges to support that idea, he would have the support of every DM house, and that would be serious power.
Melvin the Mediocre 02-07-06, 10:24 AM	"I think only Aundair really has something to fear from a resurgent Cyre because Oargev isn't going to forgive having his country pretended to not exist anytime soon." Is the Queen of Aundair married? I can't remember. Since she wants the throne, and Oargev has a claim to the throne, I can actually see them claiming that a marriage would end hostilities when in reality both see thet marriage as a key to the empire. If she is already married, she might arrange for a tragic accident to befall her spouse, or she might match Oargev up with a daughter of hers in the hopes she would have the strength to rule through the couple.
Errant 02-07-06, 10:42 AM	Dude, that is an amazing concept, and I could totally see it happening because it brings in a neutral party; House Phiarlan/Thuranni into the whole thing doing what they do anyway, except this time its tales and songs of the "Old Ways of Galifar", and the really cool part about it is that they have lived long enough to remember the "Old Ways" my only main concern is would the Valenar Elves be insulted to be offered such a job. ie: Defending Galifar, would they not have a certain arrogance toward being asked to serve a man, especially given their background, would they consider it almost like subjegation...? It was mention of some elves being around old enough to remember Galifar that triggered my brainstorm (sorry don't remember who it was atm). It seemed to me that even if Oargev made it to Thronehold, if he wants to enforce his rulings he'll either need his own neutral (Five Nations-wise) military arm or he'll have to rely on the Five Nations doing what he tells them. Yeah, that'll work. So who can provide an organised, disciplined, reliable military force strong enough to deal with anything short of civil war without making local nations/regents suspicious of the enforcers' motives? The Valenar pretty much fit the bill militarily and they're already far enough out on the fringes of Khorvaire politics that they could be promoted to the Regents(1) the same way the Swiss Guard were promoted during our middle ages: beyond national loyalties. Note (1) I don't see any of the Five Nations rulers supporting Oargev if it means giving up control of their current lands, unless its what they believe (at least initially) to be in no more than a nominal sense. I can see them reluctantly agreeing to support Oargev as the rightful heir to Thronehold and Galifar if that means they keep significant control of their lands. Essentially, I think Oargev would have to acknowledge the current rulers rights to continue ruling their current lands but if the return pledge is to acknowledge him as the rightful heir, High King and Keeper of the Code of Galifar (pick whatever titles you think appropriate) that gives Oargev a foot in the door and a lot of opportunity for the future. Would the Valenar feel insulted? Well, if the offer was carelessly made possibly, but stress the importance of the role, how critical their diplomacy and battle skills will be if Galifar is to truly be united again, and I think they could be convinced the role could be the greatest opportunity to achieve glory than anything since their return to Khorvaire. Remember what their role would mean. Even if Oargev makes it to the throne his position will be fragile. Imagine he orders the arrest of an influential noble but the local Regent is reluctant to cooperate for their own reasons. A sensitive situation all too vulnerable to sabotage or armed resistance. Oargev will be sending the Valenar in under his banner but undoubtedly vastly outnumbered by local forces and with few or no allies, to take the subject into custody and escort him/her to Thronehold for judgement. Blow it and the hopes for a new Galifar would crumble, pull it off and the dream lives on and comes one step closer to reality. Of course, a hundred or so Valenar elves riding under the High King's banner are going to stand out and not be so useful for more secretive tasks, like keeping tabs on the noble or quietly gathering evidence, which of course is where the PCs come in. :plotting:
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-07-06, 10:51 AM	"I think only Aundair really has something to fear from a resurgent Cyre because Oargev isn't going to forgive having his country pretended to not exist anytime soon." Is the Queen of Aundair married? I can't remember. Since she wants the throne, and Oargev has a claim to the throne, I can actually see them claiming that a marriage would end hostilities when in reality both see thet marriage as a key to the empire. If she is already married, she might arrange for a tragic accident to befall her spouse, or she might match Oargev up with a daughter of hers in the hopes she would have the strength to rule through the couple. I think we really need a family tree for this discussion. I think those two are siblings. She married a member (a "noble") of House Vadalis. Five Nations didn't say he's dead, so I guess he's alive. She's supposed to be good-aligned, though there's no evidence to back that up. If she really is, she wouldn't arrange for her husband's death without a good reason. I don't know if the Valenar would work for him, but he won't work with them. Thousands of Cyran refugees fled into Valenar territory, where they were brutally slaughtered. Doing so would insult Orgaev's own people.
Melvin the Mediocre 02-07-06, 11:11 AM	She married a member (a "noble") of House Vadalis. That is absolutely right, I had forgotten. And as I recall there was suppossed to be a real affection there, so good or not, she wouldn't want to off him. So brother or not, I'm thinking she might try to marry off her daughter to him.
Euangelion 02-07-06, 11:12 AM	I think we really need a family tree for this discussion. I think those two are siblings. No, they are first cousins, 4 or 5 times removed. They are probably as closely related as Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt were. She married a member (a "noble") of House Vadalis. Five Nations didn't say he's dead, so I guess he's alive. She's supposed to be good-aligned, though there's no evidence to back that up. If she really is, she wouldn't arrange for her husband's death without a good reason. He's the brother of the partriach of Vadalis, and he's not dead (not yet, at least). Oargev marrying a daughter of Aurala is the better way to go. I don't know if the Valenar would work for him, but he won't work with them. Thousands of Cyran refugees fled into Valenar territory, where they were brutally slaughtered. Doing so would insult Orgaev's own people. I agree. The best bet for instant army is Deneith. (Funny how those pesky DM houses keep coming up! Again, they're the real key to this thing.)
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 11:39 AM	No, they are first cousins, 4 or 5 times removed. They are probably as closely related as Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt were. He's the brother of the partriach of Vadalis, and he's not dead (not yet, at least). Oargev marrying a daughter of Aurala is the better way to go. I agree. The best bet for instant army is Deneith. (Funny how those pesky DM houses keep coming up! Again, they're the real key to this thing.) Man, I love talking with all you guys here on the post. You all really give some good information. I have a got a little more research to do on my part, in regards to some of the things you have shared, buts its funny how at the beginning of this thread everyone was like "YEAH RIGHT.....IN YOURS AND OARGEVS DREAMS", to now..."You know it might actually work"..:) lol In regards with the initial idea of useing the Valenar...I realize now that that wont work...apart from some serious butt kissin on the Valenars part to Oargev, which propbably is not going to happen. It would probably have to go something like this: Oargev: "Lower your flags and march straight through New Cyre, stopping at every home to beg forgiveness for a hundred years of theft, rape, and murder. Do this and your men shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today".(yeah I know...lol I stole it from Braveheart, but isnt it awesome?) so I'm almost certain that the Valenar thing wont work, at least not right now :) But I was thinking that particular PC's along with say a contingency of Deneith Guards, hmm, now that would be nasty. One of my PC's is playing a Samurai, though he serves no King, I wonder if he's looking for one... :) I dont think that many could stand in their way...Which poses a question...I know that at least in one or more Eberron publications it is stated that Deneith serves their charges with undivided devotion, so in an instance where two oppossing groups had Deneith contigencies with them, and these contingencies were orderd to defend their charges, would they fight and kill each other (The Deneith Guards I mean)....hmm :confused:
Euangelion 02-07-06, 12:52 PM	Man, I love talking with all you guys here on the post. You all really give some good information. I have a got a little more research to do on my part, in regards to some of the things you have shared, buts its funny how at the beginning of this thread everyone was like "YEAH RIGHT.....IN YOURS AND OARGEVS DREAMS", to now..."You know it might actually work"..:) lol Not everyone... ;)
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 01:06 PM	Not everyone... ;) LOL... :D
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-07-06, 01:06 PM	No, they are first cousins, 4 or 5 times removed. They are probably as closely related as Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt were. I think that's why we need the tree - too many disagreements. Or maybe I just need a page number - I only have ECS and 5N, however.
Euangelion 02-07-06, 02:25 PM	I think that's why we need the tree - too many disagreements. Or maybe I just need a page number - I only have ECS and 5N, however. That's all you need. In each chapter of Five Nations they have the lines of the descendents of Jarot. He would be the closest common ancestor for any of them. He was probably Aurala's grandfather or great-grandfather by Wroaan(?), and Oargev's great-grandfather or great-great-grandfather by Mishann. I believe Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt shared a great-grandfather or something like that. In the history of royalty (even modern), there have been plenty of marriages of closer relations than that! Edit: Keep in mind that I'm not from Shelbyville, and thus I'm not a crusader for the right to marry your cousin. I'm just saying that it's a time-honored tradition among royalty, especially those wishing to consolidate or expand power!
Seth of the First Brigade 02-07-06, 11:12 PM	After reading a bit from ECS, and in line with what we have been talking about on this thread. If Qbarran's are Galifarion Purists, and Prince Oargev is the last of the ruling family from Cyre, and Heir to the Throne of Galifar, would not King Sebates of Q'Barra willingly abjucate the throne of Q'Barra to Oargev, or in the very least swear Fielty to him, and recognize him as High of Galifar or New Galifar, he could then rule from the throne in New Throne, until he managed through various means to reforge true Galifar from the remaining nations at which point he would rule from Thronehold. Any thoughts? :confused:
maollelujah 02-07-06, 11:56 PM	After reading a bit from ECS, and in line with what we have been talking about on this thread. If Qbarran's are Galifarion Purists, and Prince Oargev is the last of the ruling family from Cyre, and Heir to the Throne of Galifar, would not King Sebates of Q'Barra willingly abjucate the throne of Q'Barra to Oargev, or in the very least swear Fielty to him, and recognize him as High of Galifar or New Galifar, he could then rule from the throne in New Throne, until he managed through various means to reforge true Galifar from the remaining nations at which point he would rule from Thronehold. Any thoughts? :confused: The Q'Barrans believe they remain true to the ideals of the Galifarian Kingdom, and think the ruling families of the Five Nations abandonned those ideals, so I don't see King Sebates respecting Oargev's claim to this throne, and would probably feel that he has no right at all to it at all. Remember the original leader came from Cyre and he left in the middle of the war and wasn't willing to fight for Oargev's ancestor's right to the throne. Now if Prince Oargev arrived at his doorsteps with a massive army, he might swear fealty to him, but otherwise I can't see it. I still can't figure out why Prince Oargev doesn't lead his survivors to Xen'drik to start a new kingdom. At least that way he would have his own kingdom. As for claiming the throne his great-granny couldn't get, his only hope is for him to become another Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar and win it by luck and the sword. But his biggest problem for that is he doesn't have the numbers to successfully rival even the smallest country in Khorvaire, but maybe if there was a new war and he performed miracles in the field endearing him to the Brelish people, he might be able to replace the inept Republic leaders or King...
Seth of the First Brigade 02-08-06, 12:09 AM	The Q'Barrans believe they remain true to the ideals of the Galifarian Kingdom, and think the ruling families of the Five Nations abandonned those ideals, so I don't see King Sebates respecting Oargev's claim to this throne, and would probably feel that he has no right at all to it at all. Remember the original leader came from Cyre and he left in the middle of the war and wasn't willing to fight for Oargev's ancestor's right to the throne. Now if Prince Oargev arrived at his doorsteps with a massive army, he might swear fealty to him, but otherwise I can't see it. I still can't figure out why Prince Oargev doesn't lead his survivors to Xen'drik to start a new kingdom. At least that way he would have his own kingdom. As for claiming the throne his great-granny couldn't get, his only hope is for him to become another Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar and win it by luck and the sword. But his biggest problem for that is he doesn't have the numbers to successfully rival even the smallest country in Khorvaire, but maybe if there was a new war and he performed miracles in the field endearing him to the Brelish people, he might be able to replace the inept Republic leaders or King... Thanks for the reply, however it doesnt make sense. Not at all speaking about your reply, but in regards to Q'Barra, they; The Q'Barrans, if they remain true to Galifars customs then they must remain true to who should be upon Galifars Throne should they not? In all truth they should have stayed and supported Mishanns claim if they wished to see Galifarian Code upheld. Seeing as they did not, I would think that they would at least respect and honor Oargevs claim, or they in turn become no better than the Nations that in their eyes rebelled against the customs of Galifar. The customs of Galifar say, correct me if I am wrong, that Oargev is heir to the Throne...Will Q'Barra now become hypocrites...Do you understand where I am coming from. Maybe I am not seeing it clearly. Maybe I am missing something...
Seth of the First Brigade 02-08-06, 12:15 AM	And I cant see how they, Q'Barra could claim that the Five Nations abondoned Galifars customs. 3 of the 5 Nations abondoned Galifars customs, Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane, remember Aundair initially supported Mishann, but we know that later on as things progressed even they abandoned Galifars Customs, but Cyre remained true, and in the process was destroyed, in essence laying down their lives in support of Galifarian custom. There is no way in my mind that Sebastes could not support Oargev, his family above all others held to the customs of Galifar, paying with their lives whilst all others rebelled.
maollelujah 02-08-06, 12:45 AM	Ven ir'Kesslan is orginally from Cyre and he left in 928 YK to form his own Kingdom in the middle of the War. Since there is no mention of Q'barra fighting with Cyre against anyone else, I don't think he saw his kingdom as allies of Cyre or part of the Galifar Kingdom, but rather a new kingdom. Remember that the Q'Barrans turned their back on the Five Nations to form a "New Kingdom" that would 'remain true to the ideals that held Galifar together for almost a thousand years'. Plus I don't think King Sebates wants to lose his place at the top of his kingdom. I am sure his nobles don't want to lose their place either, as a new king means new favorites.
Charles Phipps 02-08-06, 01:14 AM	Depends on the presentation. If Oargev wants to peacefully reunite Galifar and says he's not like his ancestors in that they were willing to tear apart "Galifar" by murdering as many of the citizens of it as possible then its entirely possible he could get the abdication and fealty from him. Especially if the Q'Barrans think it'll add some legitimacy to their claim of wanting to reunite the Five Nations.
Euangelion 02-08-06, 12:18 PM	I think that the Q'Barrans are more about preserving the culture and ideals of the Kingdom of Galifar than they are about reuniting the kingdom politically. As mentioned before, they don't trust the ir'Wynarns at all.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-08-06, 01:24 PM	The Q'Barrans believe they remain true to the ideals of the Galifarian Kingdom Whether they do or not, their leader isn't giving up a scrap of power. It's the iron law of the oligarchy (or in this case, the iron law of the monarchy). I still can't figure out why Prince Oargev doesn't lead his survivors to Xen'drik to start a new kingdom. At least that way he would have his own kingdom. As for claiming the throne his great-granny couldn't get, his only hope is for him to become another Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar and win it by luck and the sword. But his biggest problem for that is he doesn't have the numbers to successfully rival even the smallest country in Khorvaire, but maybe if there was a new war and he performed miracles in the field endearing him to the Brelish people, he might be able to replace the inept Republic leaders or King... There aren't enough Cyrans, they probably want to settle down a bit first and not too far from the Mournland, either, the logistics of the travel would be incredible (a bad thing), such an undertaking can't be kept secret (and the other nations might interfere, maybe even setting up their own "spheres of influence" in Xen'drk) and finally, Xen'drik is deadly. Not as deadly as the Mournland, but most Cyrans would be relatively low-level commoners and experts, not suited for this kind of experiment.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-08-06, 04:05 PM	This is the family tree I've gotten from 5N. There's a bit of a hole in it, unfortunately. Can someone explain that system that stood in place before King Jarot became King? It's a bit confusing. Galifar's eldest son, Karrn, became the next king of Galifar. It seems he put his children in charge of each of the Five Nations. Sometimes not enough children were produced, so regents had to be named. But what happened if there were too many children, or one died early, but after settling onto the "throne" of one of the Five Nations? King Jarot had five children: Kaius, Thalin, Mishaan, Wrogar, and Wroann, in roughly that order. I'm not sure what order Thalin and Kaius were born in, but the other three are in the right order. Thalin and Kaius have to be the 3rd and 4th children. Jarot's madness led to the war after his death in 894. Mishaan begat the ruler of Cyre, Orgaev. If Kaius' status is not revealed, he has (by bloodline) the best claim to the throne. However, he's in the weakest position, having lost his homeland and most of his people. Kaius' descendents include ... Kaius. Well, not really, but he's the king anyway, having replaced his grandson, the real Kaius III. (Apparently he looks just like him, or something. Even his "sister" can't tell them apart, although she knows he is somehow different.) Galifar's ancestors came from Karrnath, but this probably isn't that important except as a source of Karrn pride. Did Kaius III have any children before he vanished? Which source and page? Thalin begat the queen of Thrane, but she's not really in control. The Theocracy is. Wrogar's descendents include Aurala, now queen of Aundair. Wroann's descendents include Boranel, now king of Breland.
Wrathamon 02-08-06, 06:18 PM	THe only way I see a united Galifar is if Reidra invades. There would be a war against Reidra and afterwards the unity may bring the nations together... under one banner of Galifar. Of course I dont see it lasting very long before old hatreds flair up and another civil war breaks out. Unless, it isn't a governing body. I could see it more as a United Nations of Galifar with a ruler that is more like a statesman that heads a council of rulers, but has no power other than waving to the crowd and running a meeting.
Wrathamon 02-08-06, 06:33 PM	I would say the Swords of Liberty (I believe that is correct) would have something to do with it. They could use Oargev to help overthrow Brelish rulership and put puppet ruler in... with the help of the Dreaming Dark. - which would result in a civil war, but allow Oargev to seize eastern breland for New Cyre. He marries the new ruler once the war is over (both sides are being played by the SoL and Dreaming Dark) becoming a Crown Prince of the most powerful nation. He make New Cyre part of Thronehold and starts negotiated a united galifar with the other nations. The trick again is that there's no real answer to the last question. That's why it's a "claim" to the throne rather than "The throne is his." Monarchies were less centralized governments than people give them credit for being because the claim is enforced by the lesser nobility. King Stephen and the Empress Maud for example (whose child was Henry the Second). Oargev could legitimaley claim the line passed through him, however one of the most fascinating pieces of English monarchial history is the fact that while King Henry the Fourth was a usurper when he executed Richard the Second....King Henry the Fifth was the legitimate son of the King. At least according to the idea of "divine transubstation", "divine right", etc guiding it. *** My version of Prince Oargev is sort of an individual whom was never expected to become King of Cyre. He was the youngest sibling and frankly was allowed to more or less become a playboy. The character of Prince Oargev still largely apes the presence of being a playboy to a large extent but he's been hugely traumatized by his circumstances and the loss of his family plus his entire homeland. The humiliation that he suffered when Aundair more or less refused to admit him to the Treaty of Thronehold has never been forgotten either. He's a man whom is friendly and well intentioned but obsessed with building a new home for his people and doing whatever it takes. Oargev I place as a very well educated King and also perhaps the most cultured as well as crafty in terms of politics. He measures his words more carefully and more cautiously than any other monarch given their situation is so precarious. He has more drive than any of the other monarchs for making a new Cyre and he'll do whatever he must to get it. Groups that might support Oargev I see are... Riedra: The Sarlonan pawns of the Quori might believe that there is a strong benefit to meddling in the affairs of Khovaire directly if they believe that there's more benefit to jeopardizing their neutrality than there is to not. They could supply immense amount of gold into his pockets, troops, and also the benefit of a powerful voice of support for the man. Conversely... Kalashatar: Might see Oargev in a situation where they could gain some genuine position in Khovaire by associating with the political situation. What they could offer is far less than Riedra but they would be significantly more dedicated with their ability to control minds and psionics potentially being a powerful tool for warding off enemies or changing the minds of foes. Either would benefit from a unified Galifar out to protect their claim. The Emerald Claw: Erandis D'Vol made one King into an undead horror, she might be willing to do the same to another and if anyone can control the vast amounts of undead in the Mournland (and use them to conquer another land) then it would be the Lich Queen. Q'Barra: The nation of Q'Barra is already paying allegiance to "Galifar" and Oargev with sufficient force behind himself could simply get himself named King of the Land and "true Emperor" if he wasn't worried about the Brelish reaction. The Twelve: The financial benefits of a united Khovaire is far higher but the question is how do you get them to associate with you as opposed to preserving their neutrality. The Sisters of Sora Kell: In exchange for being recognized as 'true nobles' then they'd probably be willing to supply all the monsters in the world. They more than anything just want to be part of the courtly life despite their nonhuman origins. Warforged: The Lord of Blades controls only a small minority of the race and there's fifty thousand of them, twice the size of the Mournland survivors. They mostly want to just be recognized as people and many would want an egalitarian society where they're allowed to create new warforged.
Splendide 02-09-06, 03:50 AM	I think that given Oargev's only useful attribute is his historical claim to the throne, any serious action taken to make him king would be initiated by the other party in a given marriage, and as such it might be worth looking at this scenario with him as a puppet king. He just doesn't have enough influence by himself, but if (for example) Aundair can get Oargev onside as a puppet, then suddenly the reunited Galifar angle has a better chance. Certainly there would be enough in it to restart the war with a somewhat more scattered spread of allies following the cause. So by my thinking, if Oargev is to be king of Galifar, we really need to be looking for kingmakers, not allies. He won't be the one with the moxie, he's the smiling face.
Euangelion 02-09-06, 09:47 AM	I think that given Oargev's only useful attribute is his historical claim to the throne, any serious action taken to make him king would be initiated by the other party in a given marriage, and as such it might be worth looking at this scenario with him as a puppet king. He just doesn't have enough influence by himself, but if (for example) Aundair can get Oargev onside as a puppet, then suddenly the reunited Galifar angle has a better chance. Certainly there would be enough in it to restart the war with a somewhat more scattered spread of allies following the cause. So by my thinking, if Oargev is to be king of Galifar, we really need to be looking for kingmakers, not allies. He won't be the one with the moxie, he's the smiling face. You've just said in a few sentences what all my posts put together in this thread having been trying to get across. Thank you! :clap: :bow:
Seth of the First Brigade 02-09-06, 10:52 AM	So by my thinking, if Oargev is to be king of Galifar, we really need to be looking for kingmakers, not allies. He won't be the one with the moxie, he's the smiling face. Or so some might think... :plotting: