Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallis 07-12-04, 05:00 PM	As you may be aware from the thread below, the Korranberg Chronicle is currently in development as a fan-based website. I'm just hoping that, as this will be regularly updated with new issues, whether it would be possible to 'sticky' the forthcoming thread (which contains the link) when our first issue goes live...? This would help greatly and better serve the folks on these boards who have been so supportive of our efforts so far... :)
stembolt 07-12-04, 10:25 PM	I have to point out that technically a fan based website is illegal and the CoC forbids linking to a website that is illegal. That being said my advice is to petition WotC to allow Eberron Fan Sites. WotC has a long history of giving the fans what they want in this regard. They created the OGL and they allow the transfer of WotC information into a digital medium for use on PCgen and Etools. Email WotC to release some kind of statement regarding Eberron Fansites. If enough people ask I am sure something will come of it.
iltharanos 07-12-04, 10:49 PM	Originally posted by stembolt I have to point out that technically a fan based website is illegal and the CoC forbids linking to a website that is illegal. Exactly where in the CoC does it state that?
smrtgmp 07-12-04, 11:17 PM	nice sig. :)
stembolt 07-13-04, 01:36 AM	Exactly where in the CoC does it state that? The CoC is like a one page document. Take a stab at it.
iltharanos 07-13-04, 02:05 AM	Originally posted by stembolt The CoC is like a one page document. Take a stab at it. Exactly my point. The only relevant passage in the CoC would be the prohibition on: "[A]dvertising or promoting a business or commercial site." So how do you get the idea that fan-based websites are illegal out of the CoC? Are you equating fan-based websites with business or commercial sites? Unless these fan-based websites are seeking to make monetary gain, how do they qualify as business or commercial sites? Is the Korranberg chronicle a site that qualifies as a business or commercial site (i.e. are they seeking to make a profit)? Nowhere in the CoC do I see a passage indicating the illegality of posting a link to a fan-based website. Is there some other CoC to which you are referring? Are there multiple CoC's of which I am unaware? Have I just overlooked a passage in the CoC? Has WotC actually stated that fan-based websites are illegal? I'm looking at the following: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=community/coc
stembolt 07-13-04, 02:17 AM	So if that’s your assumption why not just say it in the first place? But you are in fact wrong. I will give you a hint: Linking to another site is considered “promotion.”
Arshune 07-13-04, 02:26 AM	A fansite isn't a business or commercial site unless they somehow generate revenue for profit.
iltharanos 07-13-04, 02:29 AM	Originally posted by stembolt So if that’s your assumption why not just say it in the first place? But you are in fact wrong. I will give you a hint: Linking to another site is considered “promotion.” By whose definition? Has WotC espoused this view? Have one of the Wiz-O's so stated? If I link to my own homepage that has a one-sentence line stating "I love Eberron" along with stats of my 1st level elf sorcerer from Aeranal, does that homepage therefore qualify as a fan-based web site that I am promoting and is therefore illegal? How does this homepage qualify as an illegal promotion if I am making no profit out of the whole enterprise, especially since the CoC only prohibits the promotion of a business or commercial site? If linking to another site is considered promotion, that still doesn't answer the following question: Again, how did you arrive at the conclusion that fan-based web sites are illegal? Has WotC stated in a post or announcement that this is the case? Have they clarified the CoC in the past to categorize fan-based websites as business or commercial sites and therefore illegal?
stembolt 07-13-04, 02:44 AM	A fansite isn't a business or commercial site unless they somehow generate revenue for profit. There is in fact no other kind of revenue. No one thinks this site in question will be a business or generate revenue (it will in fact generate revenue, all commercial enterprises do, but that is besides the point) By whose definition? Has WotC espoused this view? Have one of the Wiz-O's so stated? Most fansites are illegal. Star Trek, Star Wars and so on. Anytime you create derivative material from a copyrighted source without some sort of agreement that is illegal. WotC has an agreement in the form of the OGL d20 and so forth. Other companies (palladium books for example) allow the creation of fan-based sites as long as no profit is generated. Unless I missed it WotC has never allowed fansites. Somebody show me a memo or press release from WotC regarding fansites and that would be it. Until then I’m just saying it’s illegal. Mostly because it is. Hey I’m not trying to fight you here. I’m trying to tell you what the score is. You want Eberron fan sites you should talk WotC into allowing them.
iltharanos 07-13-04, 03:10 AM	I just want my questions answered, preferably by the powers that be. Considering your error regarding the illegality of the "Eberron Journal" link (and my own unfamiliarity with copyright law), it'd be quite illuminating if one of the Wiz_O's called upon the powers that be regarding the legality/illegality of the proposed Korranberg Chronicle link.
stembolt 07-13-04, 03:20 AM	The Korranberg chronicle link is not illegal. The Korranberg chronicle is illegal. The Korranberg chronicle link is merely against the code of conduct. It really is cut and dry.
iltharanos 07-13-04, 03:38 AM	Originally posted by stembolt The Korranberg chronicle link is not illegal. The Korranberg chronicle is illegal. The Korranberg chronicle link is merely against the code of conduct. It really is cut and dry. You stated something similar regarding the "Eberron Journal" link in the stickied FAQ and it's violation of the CoC, yet the Powers that Be stated that that link was fine. So, is the Korranberg Chronicle Link similarly fine?
Pallis 07-13-04, 07:30 AM	The website is not a revenue generating site. We're doing this purely out of our own interest in the gaming world that Wizards of The Coast has given us. We acknowledge their intellectual property. Please could a Wiz-O confirm that our site is ok to proceed, either on this thread or via PM. Thanks.
JohnnyONeal 07-13-04, 08:35 AM	Just to reply to the original post in this thread, I'll definitely include a link to the Korranberg Chronicle in the Eberron Newbie FAQs thread and on the Eberron Journal. As far as all this talk of legality goes, the truth is, WotC has the power to shut down fan sites if it wants. Even if the issues of fair use are debatable in some places, the fact is that if WotC says, "Shut down your illegal fan site," the average fan has no legal recourse. WotC doesn't do this, of course, because they realize that fan sites are one of the things that makes D&D fun to play. On the other hand, they not likely to issue a statement saying all fan sites are okay, because they want to reserve the power to shut down ones that cross the line. Making a big deal out of this is just looking for trouble. I think this kind of thing works best when it's a "don't ask, don't tell policy," an intentionally constructed gray area. Why run up to a lawyer and go, "Is this illegal?? Is this illegal??" Lawyers like to play things safe, and WotC has nothing (or at least very little) to gain from officially announcing that fan sites are legal. Trying to put it in black-and-white legal terms is not going to be good for fan sites.
jedi8187 07-13-04, 08:38 AM	Everyone just ignore Stembolt, since the WizO's let Jhonny's site go untouched he has to move on to another. It appears to me that the only time he pops up on these boards is when he can harrass a fansite. And to stembolt: you lost on Jhonny's site, and will probably lose on this one as well, so go ahead and report this to a moderato, so we can the offical word.
Ishorn 07-13-04, 08:53 AM	Go to the other campaign worlds board and you will see that WoTC refer fans to other fan sites. I do not see them having problems with fan sites.
peterson 07-13-04, 09:10 AM	Originally posted by JohnnyONeal Just to reply to the original post in this thread, I'll definitely include a link to the Korranberg Chronicle in the Eberron Newbie FAQs thread and on the Eberron Journal. Thank you Johnny - that would be appreciated, I'm sure, by the other Choniclers as well as for myself. Folks, let's not get this subject closed by bringing personal feelings and/or opinions into the thread - if you good people want to discuss the legality of fansites and the CoC (both of which is far beyond me), please start up a new thread. While I appreciate the concerns brought forth by all parties, it has no place on this thread. In fact, as Johnny stated previously - whether 100% accurate or not - its merely not our decision, so why hijack this thread just to argue about it? Wiz-Os', I would appreciate as well a "sticky" for our upcoming Korranberg Chronicle, but if this goes against policy, I understand. However, if it is - as I suspect - based on professional opinions (the big dawgs at WotC, not the fans), then please consider the intent of the original question, along with the intent of the people who have put the time and effort into the fansite, as opposed to the replied posts contained within this thread. Once again, the original question was this: Originally posted by Pallis As you may be aware from the thread below, the Korranberg Chronicle is currently in development as a fan-based website. I'm just hoping that, as this will be regularly updated with new issues, whether it would be possible to 'sticky' the forthcoming thread (which contains the link) when our first issue goes live...? This would help greatly and better serve the folks on these boards who have been so supportive of our efforts so far... Thank you all for your time and patience, Peterson
Pallis 07-13-04, 12:38 PM	Yes, thankyou Johnny. I'll second peterson's words. I see that we've not yet had a reply from a Wiz-O yet, which was, after all the point of this thread.
Pallis 07-13-04, 01:10 PM	Yes, thankyou Johnny. I'll second peterson's words. I see that we've not yet had a reply from a Wiz-O yet, which was, after all the point of this thread.
jedi8187 07-13-04, 03:59 PM	Yeah Jhonny, all the Chronicler's would appriciate those links. And I appologize for my comments if they went overboard, the main point of my post was to try and get stembolt to stop hijaking threads and just report this to the moderators, so they can sort it out. Besides if he did that, than maybe we could get a sticky faster.
Flamy 07-13-04, 04:25 PM	On the topic of stickying(Is that word even possible?) a Korranberg Chronicle link, I would turly appreciate it. So please, could a Wiz-O come and answer our question.
Sancus 07-13-04, 05:11 PM	You want Eberron fan sites you should talk WotC into allowing them. Oh gimme a break, there are dozens and dozens of FR fansites, and you don't see WotC bothering them, do you? While running a fansite may be technically 'illegal' it doesn't matter whatsoever when the organization that owns the copyright chooses not to say anything about it. If they ignore the dozens of FR fansites what makes you think they'd take a different view for Eberron?
JohnnyONeal 07-13-04, 05:26 PM	So please, could a Wiz-O come and answer our question.Just to manage your expectations, stuff like this generally takes the WizOs a while to answer. You might want to pick one who's responsible for this board, ask that person specifically, and then expect to wait several days for an answer. The WizOs are busy people. :)
peterson 07-13-04, 05:31 PM	Just to let you all know - as much as I hate doing it, I've already sent a PM off to one of the Wiz-O's so nobody else needs too. (and please don't! They don't need a bunch of people clogging up their PM Boxes.) Peterson
Flamy 07-13-04, 06:27 PM	Thanks peterson. I was wondering why Pallis hadn't done so to begin with. I figured that he had tried and the PM box had been full. So, should this thread be left alone while we wait for the answer? Or maybe the thread should just be closed/deleted since it purpose is done. Peterson can just post the answer elsewhere.
stembolt 07-13-04, 07:09 PM	Oh gimme a break, there are dozens and dozens of FR fansites, and you don't see WotC bothering them, do you? No reason to. Where is the money in it? Still does not make them legal. If anyone actually wants to find out about copyright here is a link to start you off. http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html You can also ask Jeeves about copyright law. Lots of good university sites.
Sancus 07-13-04, 08:03 PM	Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean you can't do it. Copyright is civil law, it is only relevant when the person who possesses the copyright chooses to enforce it by suing you. I did not dispute that it was illegal at all. So all you're doing is repeatedly spamming that fansites are illegal, as if to scare people away from making them. WotC chooses not to enforce copyright on fansites, thus there's nothing wrong with putting them up. Even if they did, the worst you'd get would be a cease-and-desist letter, and they know better than to waste their time with that because, as said above, there's no money in it. I really don't know why people insist on trolling topics like these that simply ask a question with their own take on their country's legal nonsense. Especially when fansites have been linked more than once on these boards and no one has ever said a word about it. It's very rude, honestly.
kildaere007 07-13-04, 08:49 PM	Actually Stembolt...if you check into copyright law (at your aforementioned university sites) For example Stanford here (http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html) or Georgia Here (http://www.usg.edu/admin/legal/copyright/) . You might come across something called "Fair Use". Which complicates things greatly. Copyright law is very very sticky and vague (hence it goes to court a lot)...now I don't know if you just like to stir the pot or have actual credentials (me, I have none). But if you hunt around you will find many cases where web (or fan sites) were found to be covered by fair use, and others where they were found to be in violation. It really depends, and is case by case. But be aware that Fan Sites are not in and of themselves "illegal", they are (as someone said previously) only in dispute if the holder of the copyright disagrees with the interpretation of "Fair Use". Which can cover a variety of uses including commentary. It is not black and white. For example in your link under fan fiction you will find the following Yes, that means almost all "fan fiction" is arguably a copyright violation. If you want to write a story about Jim Kirk and Mr. Spock, you need Paramount's permission, plain and simple. Now, as it turns out, many, but not all holders of popular copyrights turn a blind eye to "fan fiction" or even subtly encourage it because it helps them. Make no mistake, however, that it is entirely up to them whether to do that. Notice the word "arguably" in there. Cases can be made either direction and as long as WoTC is not deprived of income they may unofficially let fan sites flourish...they are not illegal. What would be illegal is if The Chronicle was asked to cease-and-desist and they did not. Anyhow, I didn’t want this to turn into a copyright dispute thread. But even though a link might be against the CoC….depending on their approach the Chronicle might be an o.k. Interpretation of Fair Use. It ultimately resides with WoTC and weather they feel their copyright is being infringed upon. And weather they want to do anything about it. They might be silent. As that would help their argument if they ever needed to go to court. (note I considered my approach when I made my map rendition so as to step on as few copyright toes as possible...But ultimately WoTC holds the copyright to Eberron and it's names and likenesses and I would instantly stop if WoTC asked...and of course my hope is that they actually release an offical map someday so that the fan maps are not needed).
stembolt 07-13-04, 09:24 PM	But be aware that Fan Sites are not in and of themselves "illegal", they are (as someone said previously) only in dispute if the holder of the copyright disagrees with the interpretation of "Fair Use". Good point, though it’s good because it is it is a misconception. Lets use a clearer example. If I scanned and uploaded a book by Stephen king too an open website for people to copy. Is it illegal even if you have not been sued or actioned against. Remember it costs money to serve someone. If you actually had to pursue every claim you would quickly become broke. Burden for making sure that you are not infringing on copyrights is the responsibility of all parties involved. As for fair use there is no case (that I know of) where the creation of a derivative work is legal (let me know if you find one).
WizO_Sith 07-13-04, 09:41 PM	Fair Use, the OGL/SRD/Product Identity, and Internet Fansite issues are boards policy areas that are still being defined (and re-defined). I will consult with my superiors and request a comprehensive policy statement/ruling on this matter. As to the original request for a "Sticky" of the Chronicle thread. I'm going to hold off on that for the moment as I've been directed by TBTB to tone it down on the number of stickies (apparently too many of them contribute to boards lag). Also, future discussion about the status of the Fair Use, OGL/SRD/Product Identity, and Internet Fansite issues (as they relate to Wizards.COMmunity policy) belongs on the RPG Metaboard. This thread will be closed and I must request that future discussion of these issues take place in the appropriate forums. *Click*