Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-05, 02:22 AM	I'm thinking about DMing an Eberron campaign, and I'm wondering what advice you might have to give about which method to use in generating ability scores. In my own campaign world I use the system of rolling 4d6, discarding the lowest of 4, and repeating 5 times to generate 6 scores which the player may place as he or she desires. My campaign world, Nador, turns out to challenge the players tremendously, so I let them reroll any roll of 1 and sometimes a roll of 2 (depending on the other numbers rolled and the previously-rolled scores). Recently I've joined a number of campaigns that use point-buy systems for determining abiity scores. DMs in these campaigns have used everything from 28 to 50 points. The DM running an Eberron campaign simply gave us each the same set of ability scores--18, 16, 15, 14, 13 and 12--which we could place as we saw fit and to which we applied any racial modifiers. Is there anything about Eberron that to your mind suggests using one system over another, and if so, why? If you prefer the point-buy for Eberron, how many points do you prefer, and why? Thanks! :)
Crimsonsun 03-30-05, 02:31 AM	Well, we currently have two groups, our main group, and one that we run when the DM cant be there (I DM the 2nd group). Our main party generated stats by 5d6, drop the two lowest and reroll ones. DM wanted those characters to be really extrodinary. We still didnt get a guy who rolled all 18s, most we had was 3 on one PC Our secondary group was a simple 28pt buy, and everyone was a human. That's the group where the players made the PCs themselves, and had to have the stats approved by the DM, so that if they didnt match the person, he was told to swap them around! Classes were ruled that if you wanted a magic user by default you had to take either the Education feat as your human feat (for arcane casters or artificers) or some other feat which I can't remember for Divine casters. After first level though, the gloves came off, you had free will. I made myself a warmage! To quote my fellow players "I blow :censored: up!" :D
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-05, 03:30 AM	Well, we currently have two groups, our main group, and one that we run when the DM cant be there (I DM the 2nd group). Our main party generated stats by 5d6, drop the two lowest and reroll ones. DM wanted those characters to be really extrodinary. We still didnt get a guy who rolled all 18s, most we had was 3 on one PC Our secondary group was a simple 28pt buy, and everyone was a human. That's the group where the players made the PCs themselves, and had to have the stats approved by the DM, so that if they didnt match the person, he was told to swap them around! Classes were ruled that if you wanted a magic user by default you had to take either the Education feat as your human feat (for arcane casters or artificers) or some other feat which I can't remember for Divine casters. After first level though, the gloves came off, you had free will. I made myself a warmage! To quote my fellow players "I blow :censored: up!" :D The first method would produce even better scores on average than the one I use in my campaign, and much better on average than a 28-point buy. The 28-point buy puts me in mind of the old days of original D&D, back in the 1970s, when we rolled 3d6 and got stuck with what we rolled. It's not really that bad, of course, since with point-buy you don't gets scores of 5 or 3, for instance, with a 28-point buy, a even one score of 18 is for all intents and purposes too expensive. The second method sounds a bit strange--not with respect to the point-buy, but with respect to the other items. So which do you like better in your campaign(s)? Also, how do you like playing an artificer? I've yet to see anyone play one. How's that warforged soul-knife working out? What led you to try that combination? I've been in two campaigns under 3rd Ed (one 3.0 and one 3.5) that allowed psionics, but none of the characters used them. Actually I allowed one character in my campaign here to use psionics; he was a barbarian/fighter/pison. He hadn't gotten beyond 3rd-level psion when the player left. Other than him, however, I haven't seen anyone other than one DM with the desire to use psionics.
Save-vs-DM 03-30-05, 04:10 AM	In my campaign I use a 32 point buy. I find that it gives PCs a set of ability scores they can be really happy about without making super powerful PCs One thing I do differently than anyone else, though, is that I allow them to raise their ability scores. To raise an ability score, it's rather simple. Find the point buy cost of the ability you want to raise. Pay 250xp and 1 action point PER point of point buy cost. Spend one week of training per action point spent. You cannot raise an ability higher than 18 with this method. For example, raising a 13 to a 14 takes one week of training, 1 action point and 250 xp. Raising a 17 to and 18 takes 3 action points, three weeks of training and 750xp. I've been using this system for over a year in my games, and I find it works really well. I have yet to see a player raise more than a point or two every 4-5 levels, if that. They tend to use their action points long before that. That's what I recommend, anyway. I find it works well for eberron, as it sort of lets the PCs grow into greater and greater heroes. It also has the added benefit of allowing a character to raise an ability by a couple of points to meet a feat prerequisite or to change your character when the campaing calls for it. I had one guy who was a fighter and then decided he really wanted a few levels of sorcerer - the only problem being that he was just level 4 and had a 10 charisma. So he raised his charisma to 12. Works for me. Hope it works for you. Cheers, Save vs DM
Crimsonsun 03-30-05, 04:33 AM	The second method sounds a bit strange--not with respect to the point-buy, but with respect to the other items. Eh, its a fetish of my DM, he LOVES having the players make themselves up as PCs. He says it "gives him leverage to write fun stories" or something like that So which do you like better in your campaign(s)? Also, how do you like playing an artificer? I've yet to see anyone play one. How's that warforged soul-knife working out? What led you to try that combination? I've been in two campaigns under 3rd Ed (one 3.0 and one 3.5) that allowed psionics, but none of the characters used them. Actually I allowed one character in my campaign here to use psionics; he was a barbarian/fighter/pison. He hadn't gotten beyond 3rd-level psion when the player left. Other than him, however, I haven't seen anyone other than one DM with the desire to use psionics. I dont get to play the warmage much, but I LOVE my artificer. We have a warforged fighter who has a large backpack that I sit in and enchance him with my infusions :) Always fun to drop a bane on his greataxe when its needed in battle, and, so far, no one has aimed directly for me! :D Tash, my soulknife, hasnt been played yet. He's a backup incase Dana dies, since we dont have access to life restoring magic YET (Dana is close, may even be there now, not sure). Ive always loved the idea of a warrior who doesnt need a weapon because he projects one with his mind. I do really wanna try him one of these days, but I dont know if Dana will ever buy his little piece of Zilargo >< Ive got a post in the People or Places forum that has some of the fiction Ive written on Tash. Check it out if you feel like it Side note, the warforged soulknife was bought off a standard 28pt buy, and I still think has pretty good stats...
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-05, 04:41 AM	In my campaign I use a 32 point buy. I find that it gives PCs a set of ability scores they can be really happy about without making super powerful PCs One thing I do differently than anyone else, though, is that I allow them to raise their ability scores. To raise an ability score, it's rather simple. Find the point buy cost of the ability you want to raise. Pay 250xp and 1 action point PER point of point buy cost. Spend one week of training per action point spent. You cannot raise an ability higher than 18 with this method. For example, raising a 13 to a 14 takes one week of training, 1 action point and 250 xp. Raising a 17 to and 18 takes 3 action points, three weeks of training and 750xp. I've been using this system for over a year in my games, and I find it works really well. I have yet to see a player raise more than a point or two every 4-5 levels, if that. They tend to use their action points long before that. That's what I recommend, anyway. I find it works well for eberron, as it sort of lets the PCs grow into greater and greater heroes. It also has the added benefit of allowing a character to raise an ability by a couple of points to meet a feat prerequisite or to change your character when the campaing calls for it. I had one guy who was a fighter and then decided he really wanted a few levels of sorcerer - the only problem being that he was just level 4 and had a 10 charisma. So he raised his charisma to 12. Works for me. Hope it works for you. Cheers, Save vs DM Wow! That's fascinating. Thanks for sharing it. I've kept a copy on my computer so I can consider it at greater length when I've had some sleep. :) Do you use that system only for Eberron, or for more standard D&D campaigns as well?
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-05, 04:45 AM	Eh, its a fetish of my DM, he LOVES having the players make themselves up as PCs. He says it "gives him leverage to write fun stories" or something like that I dont get to play the warmage much, but I LOVE my artificer. We have a warforged fighter who has a large backpack that I sit in and enchance him with my infusions :) Always fun to drop a bane on his greataxe when its needed in battle, and, so far, no one has aimed directly for me! :D Tash, my soulknife, hasnt been played yet. He's a backup incase Dana dies, since we dont have access to life restoring magic YET (Dana is close, may even be there now, not sure). Ive always loved the idea of a warrior who doesnt need a weapon because he projects one with his mind. I do really wanna try him one of these days, but I dont know if Dana will ever buy his little piece of Zilargo >< Ive got a post in the People or Places forum that has some of the fiction Ive written on Tash. Check it out if you feel like it Side note, the warforged soulknife was bought off a standard 28pt buy, and I still think has pretty good stats... The artificer sounds pretty cool! I really have to look at the class more closely. Does the class pretty exclusively focus on enhancing the warforged or the items of "weak-fleshed" characters? I love the idea of a gnome sitting in the warforged fighter's backpack and enhancing him! Can an artificer make permanent enhancements? Does he do it just like a spellcaster, using item creation feats?
Crimsonsun 03-30-05, 04:56 AM	Can an artificer make permanent enhancements? Does he do it just like a spellcaster, using item creation feats? Sir, you have just mentioned exactly what the artificer DOES! During his 20 levels, he gets all the item creation feats FOR FREE! At the earliest possible level (note the errata changes create wand from 7th level to 6th, where it should be) you can get them. He can make ANY item, using his UMD skill (well, almost, you can't flub skill or feat requirements) and he can make them two levels earlier than a normal caster. And, to boot, he gets a special pool of XP used for the sole purpose of item creation which refreshes every time he levels :) And to answer your first question, yes, he can enchante "breathers" items just fine, but it has to be an ITEM, not the character himself. Unless that character is an item (sorta), hence why warforged love their artificer :D The cleric in the group heals everyone else, I heal the warforged! :D
KathyNoland 03-30-05, 05:49 AM	In my own campaing I used 2d6+6. Characters used to be better than the media but one of my players had bad luck and get a very low stats (I remembered that his best scores were a 11 and a 14) and I let him repeat all his rolls. In one campain where I'm a player the DM uses a different and quite interesting system. All the player did 6 rolls of 4d6, repeat the 1's and then discard the lowest dice and when we all have our stats we select which list of scores we like most and all the characters had the same stats. He said he was tired of see characters with great scores while others characters in the same group were really low. Just my two cents :twocents:
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-05, 06:27 AM	In my own campaing I used 2d6+6. Characters used to be better than the media but one of my players had bad luck and get a very low stats (I remembered that his best scores were a 11 and a 14) and I let him repeat all his rolls. In one campain where I'm a player the DM uses a different and quite interesting system. All the player did 6 rolls of 4d6, repeat the 1's and then discard the lowest dice and when we all have our stats we select which list of scores we like most and all the characters had the same stats. He said he was tired of see characters with great scores while others characters in the same group were really low. Just my two cents :twocents: Darn! I was hoping you'd give me the whole dime. :) Hey, I went to your website, but alas I can't read Spanish. Is it a political website? Thank you for sharing your character-generation experiences. I know that in my campaign some characters have much better ability scores than others because of the random generation system. Any random system will produce variation--otherwise it wouldn't be random! :teach: Just recently I had one new player roll quite a few good scores, while another rolled relatively mediocre scores. The second method you mention creates a result similar to the one produced by the DM who just gave us ability score--everyone has the same scores to place as they wish. Do you recall what scores you got? Did they exceed on average the array of 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, and 12 that our Eberron DM gave us? Thanks! :)
KathyNoland 03-30-05, 09:55 AM	Darn! I was hoping you'd give me the whole dime. :) Hey, I went to your website, but alas I can't read Spanish. Is it a political website? :D Nop, It's from my roleplaying club! and it's in Spanish because I'm Spanish... (and that's also why sometimes my grammar it's not too acurated when I write in english...) In the web we have some information about the open game's we do in the club and we have some adventures and things like this... but it's all in spanish... I'm sorry The second method you mention creates a result similar to the one produced by the DM who just gave us ability score--everyone has the same scores to place as they wish. Do you recall what scores you got? Did they exceed on average the array of 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, and 12 that our Eberron DM gave us? Thanks! :) Yes it's quite similar, but a little more funny. I'm not sure about all the scores but I think it was something like: 18, 17, 15, 14, 13, 11 or maybe there were two 14 and no 15... I dont' remember exactly. We had used sometime the same method as your DM but just for a "one-day" game in order to go faster when creating the characters. But I think we use 18,17, 16, 15, 14, 13 ... :rofl:
TheRedRobedWizard 03-30-05, 11:48 AM	I happen to like 25 point buy. Then again, I also usually DM for a 7 or 8 PC group, so lower overall stats aren't that much of a handicap. Plus, it means people get much more attached to their characters, as they are more fragile. I never liked random ability score generation, but way back when, it was the only way. -TRRW
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-05, 03:22 PM	:D Nop, It's from my roleplaying club! and it's in Spanish because I'm Spanish... (and that's also why sometimes my grammar it's not too acurated when I write in english...) In the web we have some information about the open game's we do in the club and we have some adventures and things like this... but it's all in spanish... I'm sorry There's no need to apologize! :) Your English is good enough that it didn't tell me that you're Spanish. I did notice that you live in Spain, but only because it says so on your profile. :) Thanks for sharing! :)
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-05, 03:27 PM	I happen to like 25 point buy. Then again, I also usually DM for a 7 or 8 PC group, so lower overall stats aren't that much of a handicap. Plus, it means people get much more attached to their characters, as they are more fragile. I never liked random ability score generation, but way back when, it was the only way. -TRRW In my campaign probably half or more of the party would die in each encounter with the ability scores you can generate from a 25-point buy! :D I'd think that a person would get less attached to a more fragile character as the probability of loser the character rises drastically. I know that in the early days when I played with killer DMs (indeed in those days most DMs seemed to be killer DMs) I never got attached to any characters.
Save-vs-DM 04-01-05, 06:02 PM	Yeah, I use my stat raising method in all my games. I started doing it when I realized that some feats just assume you're going to have a 17-18 in a stat at level one (like improved precise shot). A lot of my players were wanting some of the feats with a 19+ stat prerequ, but could never qualify for them before 12th level at the earliest. Cheers, Save vs DM
the.eberron.traveler 04-01-05, 06:15 PM	In one campain where I'm a player the DM uses a different and quite interesting system. All the player did 6 rolls of 4d6, repeat the 1's and then discard the lowest dice and when we all have our stats we select which list of scores we like most and all the characters had the same stats. He said he was tired of see characters with great scores while others characters in the same group were really low. I do something similar... Have everyone roll 4d6 discard lowest 6 times. Then pick the best scores amongst the players (either in point-buy terms or number of +s, I've done it both ways), and give every player the opportunity to make their scores just as good (ie. give everyone that many points in the point-buy system or that many +s). This brings everyone to the same power level. Once, using just 4d6x6, one of the characters rolled a total of +17 while the second best in the group had a total of +9. That seemed rather... unfair. Of course, it could mean you get a group where everyone has a total of +17 : ) If you don't think you can handle, or you just don't like overpowered PCs, this may not be your thing. Then again, you can just tell them "you may have rolled +17, but you're all getting +12."
ILL34GL3 04-01-05, 10:00 PM	Point buy superior. Random rolling inferior. Point buy puts ll of the players on an even playing field, keeping the lucky roller (read: cheater) from overshadowing the other PC's just because he rolled (read: cheated up) higher attributes.
shilsen 04-01-05, 10:48 PM	My players like to have powerful characters and I'm fine with that, so I use the following (was using it previously & am now doing so in two Eberron games I'm running): Assign 80 points between your six abilities as you wish. Apply racial modifiers after assigning these scores. Only one stat may be maxed out (including racial modifiers, so a maxed Str is 20 for a half-orc, 18 for a human, and 16 for a halfling). No ability score may be lower than 8 before racial modifiers are added.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 04-01-05, 11:17 PM	I'm going to run a modified Elite Array stat build for my players. The stats will be 17, 15, 13, 11, 8, 7, which means that short of a level adjustment, they will be guaranteed at least one negative stat, and ridding themselves of their lowest stat would take a significant investment of time and money, not to mention high levels. This, I'm hoping, will reduce the likelihood of absurd cross-classing, and strangely unbelievable occurances like bards wanting to up their strength to be more likely to hit things when the flavor of the class is almost engineered to PREVENT them from becoming beatsticks. Also, by leaving the "good" stats at odd numbers, it makes it more likely that players will be more interrested in raising their strengths rather than shoring up weaknesses that the character wouldn't likely be interrested in. In other words, the fighter won't be as concerned with upping his charisma and wizards won't be as concerned with his strength... after all, they're beyond bringing to the positives, so why bother? The wizard shouldn't need to be strong, the bard shouldn't need to be wise, the cleric doesn't need to be smart, and the fighter shouldn't need to be charismatic... Playing to each other's strengths and patching up each other's weaknesses is likely why the party travels together in the first place. Beyond that, I'm working on a more generalized roleplay oriented Resources category instead of a fixed GP-per-class-and-level system, primarily BECAUSE of Eberron, where a level 10 thief isn't necessarily wealthy or politically powerful, or a level 3 expert can live on the Skyway of Sharn and sit on the city council. Levels will come into play in how much resources a character has available, but it will largely be backstory based and entirely up to how much I think the character WOULD have... And with great wealth comes rivals, enemies, and fame... and even fame can be a hinderance when running around as adventurers tend to do. I also have a questionaire that I make my players fill out before they are even handed a blank sheet to them. The questionaire is just to help the player get into the head of their character, and it helps them solidify what their character would do in tedious moral ambiguities in game. I also make players pick their class before they write anything on their sheet. Finally, since I have enough splatbooks on hand that I can eliminate the fighter class entirely, my players will have to choose from a class that fits the flavor of the character instead of making an all-feat beatstick that falls short on unique class features. For this purpose, I'm calling Barbarians Brawlers and removing their Illiteracy, since thanks to the education system of Khorvaire, even after the decay that has eaten into it during the Last War, illiteracy is likely much less common than Barbarians, and the class feature is a remnant of flavor from old systems in which Barbarian was a catch-all term that described a pelt-wearing tribesman from northern plains whose tribe has no written language. For the purposes of some feats that require X levels in the Fighter class, I am treating non-fighter primary combat classes as being equivalent to Fighter levels... Brawlers, Monks, non-magic variant rangers and paladins, Swashbucklers, Samurai, and Scouts. However, I am NOT planning on doing that for every campaign I do from now on, since that could be potentially game-breaking, and I'm doing it for my next campaign only because it is going to be a primarily roleplay-based campaign where combat is going to play second fiddle to character development... I just got sick of the party powergamer compaining that he was leveling up only once in three sessions (we met three times a week) because the only way his character could develop was to level up... :rolleyes:
a_psh 04-03-05, 02:20 PM	I've been DMing an Eberron game since October. I had the players make characters with point-buy 28. Also, instead of rolling hp, they get 3/4 of the maximum die at each level (e.g. 3+Con for a wizard, 6+Con for a cleric, 7.5+Con for a fighter). As far as I can tell from this discussion, these rules place my game on the low end of the stat power scale. Given the nature of Eberron and 3.5e in general, PB 28 is definitely more than enough to have great adventures. All of the PCs are powerful, but all have their weaknesses as well. Eberron doesn't have gods walking around, or level 35 characters, or mages who cast wish on themselves 30 times to get +5 to every stat. Also, this isn't 2nd Edition, where stats under 15 or 16 meant absolutely nothing (a 12 now is the equivalent of 15 in 2e, and a 14 is equivalent to a 16, roughly). If you choose encounters well and provide a reasonable challenge for the party, you don't need monstrous ability scores to have a "challenging" game. In my opinion, action points and ingenuity, not 16s in every stat, should make the PCs stand out. Now, there is one caviat, though: if you don't overpower your PCs, you shouldn't overpower the NPCs, either. Minor characters like minions are made with PB 15 (the non-elite array, usually) and get 1/2 max hit die for every level, and important characters have PB 25 and get max hp for first level and 1/2 max hit die for every level afterward. Truly noteworthy NPCs all have the Heroic Spirit feat and end up with exactly the same stat/hp rrules as the PCs and not a point higher.
GrayS 04-04-05, 07:47 AM	This topic has been mentioned elsewhere, but "what-the-heck", here's my two-penny-worth...... I've never been a fan of point-buy systems, so the system I use for all my players is to roll 24d6 in one go! Discard the six lowest dice, and then assign any three whole dice to any ability score as they see fit. The scores average only slightly better than 4d6 x 6, but the satisfaction of rolling 24d6 in one go is always cause for a smile. Plus the flexibility to assign as you like, means players can easily build the class they want, without being overpowered. Just one more method to throw into the ideas-pile.
fizzbang 04-04-05, 09:34 AM	Since everyone's tossing in their opinion, I'll add mine. I started playing with the point-buy system a couple years ago, and even though it seemed strange and underpowered at first, it's gotten to the point where I can't stand doing any sort of random die rolling anymore. It provides a tremendous amount of control in the way you build your character, and it removes the chance of having characters who blow the rest of the party away (or who are constantly weaker than the rest). It also avoids any chance of cheating with dice rolls at creation, and allows the DM to determine just how powerful they'd like their party to be. Many of the games I play in tend to have 32-point characters, but that's just because my group tends to like the high-but-not-ridiculous level of power. There are certainly some classes that pretty much require a good spread of moderate-to-high abilities to function at full effect (Monk and Paladin being the big ones), and 32 points allows you to go with a decent spread of 4 "14"s and 2 "12"s, which is all around better than normal without being superpowered. Meanwhile, a class that focuses on only one or two stats (say, Fighters or Sorcerers) can afford to get an "18", and still have enough left over for 2 "14"s, a "12", and 2 "8"s. And if you want higher or lower, your DM can always raise or lower the points. That said, Eberron characters can certainly get away with lower attributes, although many players may prefer not to give up their high stats. Action points can make a huge difference, and if a player uses them judiciously, they can provide bigger benefits than higher stats could (albeit less often). This is definitely taken into account in the RPGA games: the Greyhawk setting allows for 28-point characters, while the Eberron setting only allows 25-point characters, with the assumption that the action points will make up the difference in power. Still, when it comes down to it, it's all up to what your gaming group is most comfortable with. If you want to use point-buy, go for it. If you want to use dice, go for it. If you want to roll 12d4 and use that many points in point-buy, feel free to try it out.
CelestialBarbarian 04-04-05, 10:56 AM	I must say that I'm impressed by and grateful for all the thoughtful and well-considered comments people have left on this thread so far! Thank you. :)
Altaris 04-04-05, 11:45 AM	In my own Eberron campaigns (the two that I've run so far,) I have used a 4d6, drop the lowest and reroll 1's. My group has been friends (both in and out of games) for almost 10 years, so there is a lot of trust. Generally we do stat, HP, & anti-feat rolls in front of the GM, but it is not a requirement. In my current Eberron game, I also allowed the players to roll up a second column and choose the better of the two. In general, I prefer exemplary PCs. We usually run 5 players to a game, and I enjoy making the encounters very challenging (usually an EL 2 higher than the average party level.) Quite a few of my NPCs use the elite array, but I roll HPs randomly. Now, in the Faerun based Planescape game I'm in, we rolled 4d6, rerolled 1's & 2's and could roll as many columns as we wanted. One player (who was very bored) rolled up 46 columns, and the best he got was three 18's on one column. Funny thing is, that same character died twice in three sessions. :D
CelestialBarbarian 04-04-05, 11:58 AM	In my own Eberron campaigns (the two that I've run so far,) I have used a 4d6, drop the lowest and reroll 1's. My group has been friends (both in and out of games) for almost 10 years, so there is a lot of trust. Generally we do stat, HP, & anti-feat rolls in front of the GM, but it is not a requirement. In my current Eberron game, I also allowed the players to roll up a second column and choose the better of the two. In general, I prefer exemplary PCs. We usually run 5 players to a game, and I enjoy making the encounters very challenging (usually an EL 2 higher than the average party level.) Quite a few of my NPCs use the elite array, but I roll HPs randomly. Now, in the Faerun based Planescape game I'm in, we rolled 4d6, rerolled 1's & 2's and could roll as many columns as we wanted. One player (who was very bored) rolled up 46 columns, and the best he got was three 18's on one column. Funny thing is, that same character died twice in three sessions. :D The method I've been using for years on average produces better scores than the elite array. I do require all new players to roll their ability scores in front of the group. That way if they do well everyone knows they rolled legitimately. I find that on average when a prospective player has rolled scores before arriving that she gets better scores rolling here, since I allow her to reroll all scores of 1 and most scores of 2. I did have one new playe who simply rolled mediocre scores no matter how many times I let her reroll a 1 or 2. I will say that I get a bit irked when someone goes ahead and rolls numbers at home these days. I never assume that a DM will allow me to roll scores without witnessing it. For that matter in some of the campaigns in which the DM uses some point buy system I have a strong suspicion that one player or another has cheated (or erred) on calculating his ability scores.
Earthbinder 04-04-05, 12:25 PM	my group started with the 4d6 but it got silly when one guy ended up with 25+ and one character with 13s or lower so now we use a 28 point buy system whith thie following modification: you no longer gain ability increases every 4 levels, instead you gain your level in pointbuy points each time up increase in level, these points can be accumulated and spent according to the pointbuy list, however you can only increase by 1 each level and you must spend the full cost. i know at first level it seems pretty rubbish but at 5th level each player has the stat equivalents of a 43pt character. really puts the hero back in being heroic.
Jonathan Drain 04-04-05, 12:33 PM	My game's character generation rules are a set 18/16/16/14/12/10, arrange as desired, and hitpoints are average rounded up (so that a d6 is 4HP). This is slightly higher powered than average, and while it takes the element of chance out of the rolling, few players complain because they get guaranteed good stats. I didn't specifically make this for Eberron, but it does help to ensure that each character is head and shoulders above the average NPC, while ruling out the possibility of one character dominating all the others through suspiciously lucky rolls. I suppose it might be considered cinematic that the characters are all well-balanced and each have their own strengths and weaknesses, instead of one character being a footnote to another.
ILL34GL3 04-04-05, 12:44 PM	My game's character generation rules are a set 18/16/16/14/12/10, arrange as desired... That's like a 48 point-buy Monte Hall.
Nightshade 04-04-05, 06:20 PM	I am using a 36 point buy system with one houserule - the ability score increases every four levels cannot be used to advance an ability score higher than racial maximums until Epic levels, e.g., humans may have no ability score higher than 18 until Epic levels. Of course, magical spells, items, and artifacts can increase an ability score higher than racial maximums. Artifacts (books/tomes) that permanently increase ability scores are rare. The 36 point buy system allows for characters to all have decent ability scores - 16 usually being the highest. Even with that many points, you wouldn't normally choose to get an 18 in a stat at first level because the cost is too high and because you can always use your level increases to eventually bring your main stats up to 18.
Ohtar Turinson 04-04-05, 09:14 PM	Every group I've been in has used 4d6, drop the lowest. This is done 7 times, and the lowest of those seven is dropped. Arange as you like. If the bonus don't add up to +3 or better, try again. Makes for relatively high power characters, but it's not much of an issue- we seldom start at level one, and when we did it was running Forgotten Forge with four PCs. We needed all the help we could get. After level one, high stats seem more balanced- at least in my games, no one's being blown away by others having higher stats (this is at level 8 at this point).
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 04-06-05, 03:30 AM	Just a little update on my modified elite array: I made it 15, 15, 11, 11, 8, 7, and my players couldn't be happier. They've played the powerful, the obscenely powerful, and characters so overpowered that the DM at the time would rather bring in someone with divine ranks than another build like what they dumped out... And they love it! In point terms, it's 21 points. In game terms, it puts them as way better than the general population, but damn weak compared to most setups. For once in their roleplaying lives, they're actually building CHARACTERS instead of overpowered Forgotten Realms beatsticks...
CelestialBarbarian 04-06-05, 03:55 AM	Really Gnome, I think that when Jesus saves he takes no damage. :D In my own campaign I tend to make encounters very challenging. The characters really do need their relatively higher ability scores. I like to joke that if, at the end of a major encounter, all the PCs but one aren't unconscious, and the one conscious PC has more than 1 hit point remaining, I haven't done my job. ;) Almost every PC has been knocked unconscious (dying) during his or her first night with the group, and last Saturday was no exception. I find that I just never have trouble challenging my players.
CowGoMoo 04-06-05, 04:23 AM	My two cents... Point buy for PCs all the way - keeps things balanced, and no one's unhappy. I also like how it makes racial adjustments meaningful; with rolled arrays, giving your elf 14 Con is as easy as swapping two numbers around. I use 28 points myself, but don't see why you couldn't use 32 for powerful PCs or 25 for more realistic ones. That said, abilities influence character perception a fair bit, and since I'm a fan of the character concept coming before the character sheet I tend to be fairly flexible if changes are reasonable. For example, the paladin's player wanted an extra bit of Int because that was part of the character he had in mind (as were all the other stats). It wasn't game-breaking, and he clearly wasn't trying to power game - the paladin's base Str and Dex were 10 and 12, respectively - so I agreed. Oddly enough, I've never had a player request fewer points. ;)