Action Points and Forgotten Forge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Action Points and Forgotten Forge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Camille
01-20-05, 11:02 PM I noticed from other posts and reply that many DMs had found the Forgotten Forge exceptionally deadly.

I had thought that the use of action points was supposed to allow PCs to handle incredible situations that PCs couldn't handle in regular D&D. Accordingly ELs well above the players was supposed to be OK. As I understand it doing the nigh impossible is the whole point of Action Points. Yet no one mentioned their players using Action Points in the Forge.

Did your players not use action points or were action points insufficient to the task? Any advice?

Some back ground on me and my potential players.

While I've played D&D continuously since 1980, I last DMed a couple of decades ago. I no longer have time to create a world from scratch, but found Eberron to be exactly what I was looking for. I plan to start my players in Sharn with the Forgotten Forge. The group I usually play with tends to run parties of up to 10 players, but that's more than I can handle, as its been so long since I sat behind the shield. So I'll probably run between 4 and 6 players, all of whom are experienced and more than half of whom are DMs. So I have smart, highly experienced and inventive players. I really don't want to kill them, but Indian Jones style high drama, danger and Film Noir interigue are a large part of what drew me to Eberron.

I'd appreciate any tips.
Arcane Guyver
01-21-05, 03:34 AM From my experience, players LOVE action points. It's not so much that they can perform stunts normally impossible, it's that they have an extra bit of control over the rolls. This may not seem like much, but it's fantastic when battles get bogged down in 'misses', or players want to make sure they make that saving throw. At first I worried they'd save up their AP for climactic encounters, but then again, higher difficulty encounters ensures that won't happen.

Ah, one more thing - it can be extremely easy for players new to AP to totally forget about them. Make them write down how many they have on their sheet, and demonstrate to them how easy to use & potentially powerful they are. My entire group forgot about AP until about halfway through Forgotten Forge.
MarkB
01-21-05, 05:54 AM My group was the same way the first time I ran it. They forgot about Action Points throughout most of the session, and had to be prompted to remember to use them during the final battle. Once they did, though, they loved them.
(Psi)SeveredHead
01-21-05, 07:47 AM APs don't boost your AC or hit points, that's why they won't save you in the Forgotten Forge. There aren't many saving throws to avoid in the game that I recall; basically, you just don't want to be nauseated by the swarm of scarab beetles.
Turin
01-21-05, 09:14 AM Most of my group mostly forgot to use their AP (or were "saving them" which I'm finding is a bad idea), which may have had something to do with it. But my rogue PC is heading for Extreme Explorer and so I'm building him around the action point feats (I've got Heroic Spirit now and am picking up Action Boost next level). I used a bunch of AP in that adventure, and I managed not to go down except for the swarm. But the rest of the party all went down at least once. I found AP good for when you know you're "almost there," like you rolled a 15 last round and it missed, and this round you roll a 15 again. There's a certain degree of metagaming that has to be used to use AP properly, but since adding "luck" to your attack rolls is a fairly metagame concept to begin with, it seems ok.

But then again, in our first session of SotLW, I went down every single encounter. :blush: My action points didn't help me one bit - there's no point in burning an AP if you aren't rolling anywhere near what you need, and I didn't roll above a 10 all night (except for the one 20 on initiative, which got me close enough to those !$%!$#%! glass zombies that they could beat the daylights out of me that much sooner. To sum up: AP don't allow you to do things that were impossible, they just make the improbable less improbable.
Streamweaver
01-21-05, 11:31 AM I ran the forgotten forge, experience in my game is at 50%, but players get 3 extra action points per level because of the longer time it takes to level.

That said, the APs have worked out just find per level so far. My players didn't even go through all their normal 1st level APs in the Forgotten Forge so it's working for us.
Grabuto
01-21-05, 11:44 AM As a player, I forgot all about the action points.
**Spoiler Warning***
We also didn't use the healing font because out cleric assumed it was holy water and didn't want it tainted by our grubby hands. The AC of the dire rats was brutal at 1st level, so be aware of that. Our DM didn't send the beetle swarm after us because we didn't have alchemist fire or a Wizard/Sorceror so it would have been near impossible. A spellcaster with burning hands would have made it a whole different scenerio though. Aside from that it was challanging but certainly fair and balanced. More than four characters or 2nd level characters might have even been too easy, provided we used action points. It was also a good intro to Eberron so from that perspective I highly recommend it. (BTW: I read the module after the adventure concluded. I lack impulse control)
Mandarbgrim
01-21-05, 01:58 PM Ehh..I just ran it..the first encounter with the Warforge resulted in the dwarf fighter bending over to check the body..getting axed in the back..20, then 18..crit..rolled an 8 damage with the crit..Dwarf died..so I fudged it so he was down to -2.

Then they spotted the Warforged Rogue when the Dwarf got an 19 on his spot check..so they breezed through that encounter.

The warforged carried a shifter body along with him..<I know he was metagaming..but unless he had read the adventure..which I am doubting considering other mistakes he made..he shouldnt' have realized the usefulness of the dead body.>

They came to the edge and stayed and looked for awhile..one jumped down..the swarm..umm..swarmed..he climbed back up.. the warforged grabbed the shifter body and threw it off to the side. So..the swarm goes to the body and starts eating it..they jump down and head in the opposite direction.

Then the warforged warlock destroys all the iron defenders without leaving the roof. <Threw a bunch of torches down and across the room to see what was there.> So... the adventure didn't work out that well for me, personally. <I even figured up the angle to see if he could hit them like that..yeah..it works out easily.>

Anyone have any advise for Shadows of the Last War for me?
pseudonym
01-21-05, 02:52 PM This is one hell of an introductory adventure. Our party (human swashbuckler, shifter favored soul. half elf rogue, human wizard) had a rough go of it. I (the swashbuckler) went through two action points on the first bridge alone, and got dropped to 0 for my efforts. Our rogue ran away from that one with a HP or two.

We hired two goons for the trip below, and nearly died several times each. Our wizard had action points left at the end of things, only because he took a feat for it.

I think the adventure is rough with or without, as other posters have said that when you remember that you have action points. you can only use one a turn, so if you arn't six or less away from the DC you need the extra isn't going to help.

Though we had a great time, I think the adventure is somewhat flawed in that it assumes that you manage to take the first warforge out of action in the initial encounter. We ended up fighting Cutter and Saber on our way out after being wounded by the iron defenders. That made it rather tough.
The Rooster
01-22-05, 04:36 PM My players relied heavily on action points in the forge. They forgot to use them initially, but

spoiler

Once they could not hit the horrid rats, the group all started using them to take care of the rats and end the encounter.

Rooster
Camille
01-23-05, 08:58 PM Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences on the Forgotten Forge and your use of Action Points.

Camille

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Camille 01-20-05, 11:02 PM	I noticed from other posts and reply that many DMs had found the Forgotten Forge exceptionally deadly. I had thought that the use of action points was supposed to allow PCs to handle incredible situations that PCs couldn't handle in regular D&D. Accordingly ELs well above the players was supposed to be OK. As I understand it doing the nigh impossible is the whole point of Action Points. Yet no one mentioned their players using Action Points in the Forge. Did your players not use action points or were action points insufficient to the task? Any advice? Some back ground on me and my potential players. While I've played D&D continuously since 1980, I last DMed a couple of decades ago. I no longer have time to create a world from scratch, but found Eberron to be exactly what I was looking for. I plan to start my players in Sharn with the Forgotten Forge. The group I usually play with tends to run parties of up to 10 players, but that's more than I can handle, as its been so long since I sat behind the shield. So I'll probably run between 4 and 6 players, all of whom are experienced and more than half of whom are DMs. So I have smart, highly experienced and inventive players. I really don't want to kill them, but Indian Jones style high drama, danger and Film Noir interigue are a large part of what drew me to Eberron. I'd appreciate any tips.
Arcane Guyver 01-21-05, 03:34 AM	From my experience, players LOVE action points. It's not so much that they can perform stunts normally impossible, it's that they have an extra bit of control over the rolls. This may not seem like much, but it's fantastic when battles get bogged down in 'misses', or players want to make sure they make that saving throw. At first I worried they'd save up their AP for climactic encounters, but then again, higher difficulty encounters ensures that won't happen. Ah, one more thing - it can be extremely easy for players new to AP to totally forget about them. Make them write down how many they have on their sheet, and demonstrate to them how easy to use & potentially powerful they are. My entire group forgot about AP until about halfway through Forgotten Forge.
MarkB 01-21-05, 05:54 AM	My group was the same way the first time I ran it. They forgot about Action Points throughout most of the session, and had to be prompted to remember to use them during the final battle. Once they did, though, they loved them.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-21-05, 07:47 AM	APs don't boost your AC or hit points, that's why they won't save you in the Forgotten Forge. There aren't many saving throws to avoid in the game that I recall; basically, you just don't want to be nauseated by the swarm of scarab beetles.
Turin 01-21-05, 09:14 AM	Most of my group mostly forgot to use their AP (or were "saving them" which I'm finding is a bad idea), which may have had something to do with it. But my rogue PC is heading for Extreme Explorer and so I'm building him around the action point feats (I've got Heroic Spirit now and am picking up Action Boost next level). I used a bunch of AP in that adventure, and I managed not to go down except for the swarm. But the rest of the party all went down at least once. I found AP good for when you know you're "almost there," like you rolled a 15 last round and it missed, and this round you roll a 15 again. There's a certain degree of metagaming that has to be used to use AP properly, but since adding "luck" to your attack rolls is a fairly metagame concept to begin with, it seems ok. But then again, in our first session of SotLW, I went down every single encounter. :blush: My action points didn't help me one bit - there's no point in burning an AP if you aren't rolling anywhere near what you need, and I didn't roll above a 10 all night (except for the one 20 on initiative, which got me close enough to those !$%!$#%! glass zombies that they could beat the daylights out of me that much sooner. To sum up: AP don't allow you to do things that were impossible, they just make the improbable less improbable.
Streamweaver 01-21-05, 11:31 AM	I ran the forgotten forge, experience in my game is at 50%, but players get 3 extra action points per level because of the longer time it takes to level. That said, the APs have worked out just find per level so far. My players didn't even go through all their normal 1st level APs in the Forgotten Forge so it's working for us.
Grabuto 01-21-05, 11:44 AM	As a player, I forgot all about the action points. Spoiler Warning* We also didn't use the healing font because out cleric assumed it was holy water and didn't want it tainted by our grubby hands. The AC of the dire rats was brutal at 1st level, so be aware of that. Our DM didn't send the beetle swarm after us because we didn't have alchemist fire or a Wizard/Sorceror so it would have been near impossible. A spellcaster with burning hands would have made it a whole different scenerio though. Aside from that it was challanging but certainly fair and balanced. More than four characters or 2nd level characters might have even been too easy, provided we used action points. It was also a good intro to Eberron so from that perspective I highly recommend it. (BTW: I read the module after the adventure concluded. I lack impulse control)
Mandarbgrim 01-21-05, 01:58 PM	Ehh..I just ran it..the first encounter with the Warforge resulted in the dwarf fighter bending over to check the body..getting axed in the back..20, then 18..crit..rolled an 8 damage with the crit..Dwarf died..so I fudged it so he was down to -2. Then they spotted the Warforged Rogue when the Dwarf got an 19 on his spot check..so they breezed through that encounter. The warforged carried a shifter body along with him..<I know he was metagaming..but unless he had read the adventure..which I am doubting considering other mistakes he made..he shouldnt' have realized the usefulness of the dead body.> They came to the edge and stayed and looked for awhile..one jumped down..the swarm..umm..swarmed..he climbed back up.. the warforged grabbed the shifter body and threw it off to the side. So..the swarm goes to the body and starts eating it..they jump down and head in the opposite direction. Then the warforged warlock destroys all the iron defenders without leaving the roof. <Threw a bunch of torches down and across the room to see what was there.> So... the adventure didn't work out that well for me, personally. <I even figured up the angle to see if he could hit them like that..yeah..it works out easily.> Anyone have any advise for Shadows of the Last War for me?
pseudonym 01-21-05, 02:52 PM	This is one hell of an introductory adventure. Our party (human swashbuckler, shifter favored soul. half elf rogue, human wizard) had a rough go of it. I (the swashbuckler) went through two action points on the first bridge alone, and got dropped to 0 for my efforts. Our rogue ran away from that one with a HP or two. We hired two goons for the trip below, and nearly died several times each. Our wizard had action points left at the end of things, only because he took a feat for it. I think the adventure is rough with or without, as other posters have said that when you remember that you have action points. you can only use one a turn, so if you arn't six or less away from the DC you need the extra isn't going to help. Though we had a great time, I think the adventure is somewhat flawed in that it assumes that you manage to take the first warforge out of action in the initial encounter. We ended up fighting Cutter and Saber on our way out after being wounded by the iron defenders. That made it rather tough.
The Rooster 01-22-05, 04:36 PM	My players relied heavily on action points in the forge. They forgot to use them initially, but spoiler Once they could not hit the horrid rats, the group all started using them to take care of the rats and end the encounter. Rooster
Camille 01-23-05, 08:58 PM	Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences on the Forgotten Forge and your use of Action Points. Camille