Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ibbins 07-21-05, 12:33 PM	I think. Other than for boosting skill checks and saves, what are they good for? Warrior-types can use em for attack rolls, which is great. Preparation spellcasters can use em for spontaneous spellcasting, which is somewhat useful. Artificers use em for speeding infusions. Sorcs? This gave me an idea for a different use of action points, possibly available only as a feat: You may spend 1 action point to boost your caster level by 1d4 for 1 spell. What do you think?
Dragonmann 07-21-05, 12:40 PM	You mean other than extra move actions, or actually being able to hit in combat, and touch and ranged touch attack rolls, and the occasionally succesful fortitude save...
Ibbins 07-21-05, 12:44 PM	I'm talking about using them without other feats (no Action surge for you!) The fact that they now have a chance at passing a fort save is the same as a fighter getting the chance to pass a will save. Touch attacks...meh. less important than a fighters regular attacks.
DoveArrow 07-21-05, 12:47 PM	Sorcerers can already use action points for penetrating SR, making skill checks and for making touch attack rolls. If you want to modify them, though, you might try this: When a monster rolls its save, before the DM says whether or not the monster succeeded, you can choose to use an action point to roll a d6, subtracting the result from the monster's save. It's not much different from your idea, but it does give it more of the random feel of action points.
Calibim 07-21-05, 12:48 PM	You mean other than extra move actions, or actually being able to hit in combat, and touch and ranged touch attack rolls, and the occasionally succesful fortitude save... Agreed. And dependent upon your DM you can burn multiple point to pull yur fat out of the fryer. The use for actions points given in the book are the "standard" uses. Try doing stuff like asking your DM "Hey, how many action points would it cost me to raise the DC of this spell I'm casting?" It's up to to find creative and fun uses for your action points.
Bluebrush 07-21-05, 12:56 PM	Skill checks would be rather useful, like when you need to do something you're not trained to do (Jump from an airship, swim, etc.) Unearthed Arcana has some other uses for action points, such as recalling spell slots and being able to temporarily use a feat you have the prereqs for.
Ibbins 07-21-05, 01:09 PM	Sorcerers can already use action points for penetrating SR, Where does it talk about this? Edit: now that I've received 4 identical answers on this point, it's no longer necessary to answer this question.
Calibim 07-21-05, 01:17 PM	Where does it talk about this? Penetrating SR is a d20 roll. Any d20 roll can be enhanced via action points.
Beleriphon 07-21-05, 01:20 PM	Where does it talk about this? ECS, action points can be added to any d20 roll, which includes SR checks.
KP91 07-21-05, 01:21 PM	Touch attacks are important. Most of your spells are going to have a (ranged) touch attack. Fortitude and reflex saves arn't great for sorcerors. Add 1d6 to them.
DoveArrow 07-21-05, 01:26 PM	Where does it talk about this? Well, I don't know that it states it so plainly. However, the rules do state that you can use action points any time you make a d20 roll. Penetrating SR is just a d20 roll, so it makes sense that you could use it. Note: I just noticed that two other people posted in regards to this question. We are so helpful. :)
Edymnion 07-21-05, 03:19 PM	You mean other than extra move actions, or actually being able to hit in combat, and touch and ranged touch attack rolls, and the occasionally succesful fortitude save...You mean the exact same things the Wizard can use them on, while he still gets to walk all over the Sorcerer's toes by having the ability to use them for spontaneous casting. Uh uh, I don't buy it. My fix? Let the sorcerer use Metamagic without the full round casting in exchange for an action point.
Ibbins 07-21-05, 04:03 PM	You mean the exact same things the Wizard can use them on, while he still gets to walk all over the Sorcerer's toes by having the ability to use them for spontaneous casting. Uh uh, I don't buy it. That's what I was getting at. Anything a sorc can do, the others can do and more. The metamagic thing is a nice solution.
EscherEnigma 07-21-05, 05:05 PM	and it fits as well... action points can be used to shorten infusion casting times, I don't see why it can't be used to shorten other casting times. The question is how you choose to apply it... does it work like the artificer infusion shortening use, availible for any spell, or is it exclusive to metamagic? I can see it going either way, and either way it'll be more valuable to a sorc then a wizard.
MrFilthyIke 07-21-05, 05:07 PM	Sorcerer can use it to stabilize after a conflict goes bad?
MysticTheurge 07-21-05, 08:49 PM	You mean the exact same things the Wizard can use them on, while he still gets to walk all over the Sorcerer's toes by having the ability to use them for spontaneous casting. Where is this action point-spontaneous casting thing? I don't see it in the ECS under "Action points: Special Actions"
Ibbins 07-21-05, 09:50 PM	and it fits as well... action points can be used to shorten infusion casting times, I don't see why it can't be used to shorten other casting times. The question is how you choose to apply it... does it work like the artificer infusion shortening use, availible for any spell, or is it exclusive to metamagic? I can see it going either way, and either way it'll be more valuable to a sorc then a wizard. The Artificer gets a big help from action points because many of the infusions are designed with this application in mind. And by the RAW, no other spellcaster can use APs to shorten casting times. Where is this action point-spontaneous casting thing? I don't see it in the ECS under "Action points: Special Actions" It's a feat from ECS. Not a standard use of APs, but it still gives Wizards and other prep spellcasters an edge.
Junkyard Dog 07-21-05, 10:17 PM	Where does it talk about this?You can use an action point to improve the result of a level check (ECS p.245, 1st sentence of paragraph 3). A caster level check is a level check. As others have pointed out, some nice offensive spells (scorching ray, ray of enfeeblement) require ranged touch attacks, so you can use them there as well. And everyone has to make saving throws at some point. Furthermore, almost all spellcasters will want to cast on the defensive at some point, so you can use them on your Concentration checks (or any other skill checks, for that matter).
Draco Light 07-21-05, 11:22 PM	Maybe allow Sorcerers to use an amount of action points to cast a spell they don't know? I'd personally guess the magic number of action points to be equal to the spell level (Need a quick Knock? Two action points. Unplanned Disjunction? Bit more costly with 9). I'd probably even be willing to allow them to knick spells not on the list (Emergency Heal: 5 points!) I'd make someone take a feat to do this, of course, and I'm not exactly sure it's balanced. Anyone want to attempt to test it, see how it works? See if my short-hand costs are right? Obviously, the short metamagic time is cool too.
Sarlax 07-21-05, 11:46 PM	However, the rules do state that you can use action points any time you make a d20 roll. No, the rules do not say that. "You can spend an action point to improve the result of an attack roll, a skill check, an ability check, a level check, or a saving throw." Not any d20 roll.
Lord__McCragge=ASP= 07-22-05, 01:04 AM	Where is this action point-spontaneous casting thing? I don't see it in the ECS under "Action points: Special Actions" They are speaking of the Feat "Spontaneous Casting." Sorceror's and action points are fine. Sorceror's can already cast their spells spontaneously, so the Spontaneous Casting Feat is nothing new for them. That feat allows the Wizard to cast spontaneously once in a while. Artificers and Wizards that use these abilities should know that it's for dire situations, and so should use careful consideration as to when they should spend them. Sorceror's can apply their Action Points to any d20 roll, just as any other character can. They already cast spontaneously, and they don't need to be able to use metamagic enhanced spells at a reduced casting time. If you're Sorceror is this concerned over his melee abilities then he's been taking the wrong class levels. If you're consistently relying on area of effect spells, because you don't seem too enthusiastic over being able to enhance your melee and ranged touch attack rolls, then you have made ( and should accept ) the choice to give up that usage of Action Points.
greatfrito 07-22-05, 01:56 AM	Let me say, all arguments so far that sorcs have just as many chances to use action points seem to fall flat. Personally? Let 'em use Edy's fix - it fits with other systems already in place (Artificers anyone?), and is in fact -weaker- than that system (an Artificer can drop an infusion from 1 minute to 1 round, and that's quite a bit more of a change than from 1 round to 1 action).
Salla 07-22-05, 02:22 AM	No, the rules do not say that. "You can spend an action point to improve the result of an attack roll, a skill check, an ability check, a level check, or a saving throw." Not any d20 roll. Isn't that, well, everything that uses a d20 outside of some really bizarre humongous weapon damage? I can't think of anything else ... Edit: Okay, initiative checks. But, frankly, if someone really wanted to blow an AP on their initiative check, I'd let them. :)
Vampireslayer 07-22-05, 02:48 AM	Edit: Okay, initiative checks. But, frankly, if someone really wanted to blow an AP on their initiative check, I'd let them. :) Isn't an initiative check basically an ability (dexterity) check?
Salla 07-22-05, 02:54 AM	Isn't an initiative check basically an ability (dexterity) check? Basically, but it's the only thing that uses a d20 I can think of that wasn't specifically called out on the list.
Lord__McCragge=ASP= 07-22-05, 03:53 AM	Let me say, all arguments so far that sorcs have just as many chances to use action points seem to fall flat. Personally? Let 'em use Edy's fix - it fits with other systems already in place (Artificers anyone?), and is in fact -weaker- than that system (an Artificer can drop an infusion from 1 minute to 1 round, and that's quite a bit more of a change than from 1 round to 1 action). The infusion time is being shortened, but the Sorceror is applying a metamagic feat to a spell as a standard action. His spell will then be quickened, or maximized, or widened, etc. That is why I would not allow it. It would allow things like maximized disintigrates and such. The Sorceror being able to do this at will, and do so a reasonable amount of times between levels when his action points are reset is a bit broken in my opinion. My main problem is that EVERY Sorceror in Eberron could do this sort of thing, with no training. If it were part of a feat, or prestige class ( Much like how the Changeling Recaster works ) then the power would be balanced by the time and effort put into attaining the ability.
Lord__McCragge=ASP= 07-22-05, 04:02 AM	If you're dead set on the whole metamagic thing, take a look at the Heroic Metamagic Feat in the Races of Eberron book. I don't have my copy with me, but in order to apply the metamagic feat in question the caster must expend a number of Action Points equal to the level that the metamagic feat will raise it. I think it is intended more for casters that prepare spells as it is used to spontaneously apply a metamagic feat to a prepared spell. That should clearly indicate the power of being able to SPONTANEOUSLY apply metamagic feats to spells. 1) It requires a feat. 2) It requires an expenditure of Action Points, Plural. With how action points reset when a character attains another level, this is a tricky feat to utilize and is best taken advantage of in very serious circumstances. Otherwise this sort of warping of magic is not supposed to be so easily accessible. That is why prestige classes like the Changeling Recaster, is extremely strict in who can gain levels in it. It is also designed to make the most of the class by advancing one to two levels in it, then returning to your base caster class for two to six levels before again progressing in the Recaster Prestige Class. The ability to apply metamagic feats should not be handed out without the character having to exert some sort of real effort in gaining a mastery of applying them.
MarkB 07-22-05, 04:25 AM	My fix? Let the sorcerer use Metamagic without the full round casting in exchange for an action point. I posted a feat for that some time ago. I'm not sure if I made it require one or two action points, but I think 1 is reasonable. It also allowed Sorcerers and Bards to take and use Quicken Spell, but only by spending an action point each time. I'm not sure I'd allow it for all sorcerers, but as a feat I think it works well.
AlDaRoN Arg 07-22-05, 07:30 AM	Edit: Okay, initiative checks. But, frankly, if someone really wanted to blow an AP on their initiative check, I'd let them. :) If you need it to sneak on that mage why not?
DoveArrow 07-22-05, 10:20 AM	No, the rules do not say that. "You can spend an action point to improve the result of an attack roll, a skill check, an ability check, a level check, or a saving throw." Not any d20 roll. A roll against spell resistance is a caster level check plus your appropriate ability modifier. Since level checks qualify as a use for action points, using them to boost rolls to penetrate spell resistance qualifies as an appropriate use. Also, on that same page that you're quoting from, the book says "Action points provide a player with the means to alter d20 rolls in dramatic situations." The specific paragraph you are quoting from is merely being more precise about what checks it covers, though as far as I can tell, it covers all d20 rolls. However, if you can provide an example of a d20 roll where a person does not get to use an action point to boost it, I'd be interested to know. Thanks. Note: I just read through the posts about initiative checks. It's a good argument, but as someone pointed out, it's essentially an ability check. I don't know. You could really go either way on that issue.
Calibim 07-22-05, 12:47 PM	My main problem is that EVERY Sorceror in Eberron could do this sort of thing, with no training. If it were part of a feat, or prestige class ( Much like how the Changeling Recaster works ) then the power would be balanced by the time and effort put into attaining the ability. Not every Sorcerer, only those that have action points. This would include PC and NPC that take the Heroic Spirit Feat (I believe that is the feat that gives action points), and or bonus points from PrCs. NPCs do not get action points unless they take Heroic Spirit and/or get them from a PrC.
Lord__McCragge=ASP= 07-22-05, 08:46 PM	:ahem: Action points are allowed to boost the following: Attack Rolls, Skill Checks, Ability Checks, Level Checks, and Saving Throws. ( Page 45 of the Eberron Campaign Setting ) Initiative is a Dexterity Check ( In other words an Ability Check ). ( Page 136 Player's Handbook, Second Sentence under the bold-faced "Initiative Checks" ) Yes you can spend an action point to improve your intiative check.
Lord__McCragge=ASP= 07-22-05, 09:00 PM	Not every Sorcerer, only those that have action points. This would include PC and NPC that take the Heroic Spirit Feat (I believe that is the feat that gives action points), and or bonus points from PrCs. NPCs do not get action points unless they take Heroic Spirit and/or get them from a PrC. Yes, every Sorceror with action points would be able to do this. That is my problem. NPCs typically do not take PC class levels unless they are supposed to be more noteworthy than joe schmoe the magewright or adept. If you have an NPC Sorceror that is all well and good, but as soon as he attains action points, look he now knows how to apply metamagic feats without having had to do anything more than take the feat granting him action points ( An ability that all PCs automatically have ). I was making reference to Sorceror's as PCs, because they are a PC class. I still have a problem with EVERY single PC Sorceror being able to speed up their usage of applying metamagic feats with one action point.
Ibbins 07-22-05, 09:26 PM	Firstly, it's not your problem, because it's a house rule, so you have no obligation to deal with it at all. So quit whining and don't use it in your game. Secondly, if its given that you're using this house rule, yes, every sorcerer with action points could do this. Action Points, however, are a remarkable thing. PCs can use them because they are the Heroes of Eberron. They can do other, equally remarkable things like hitting when they normally couldn't, spontaneously casting a spell they normally couldn't, taking an extra action they normally couldn't, and so on; all of these abilities are available to the PCs. Why? Because they're Heroes.
Lord__McCragge=ASP= 07-22-05, 10:27 PM	Firstly, it's not your problem, because it's a house rule, so you have no obligation to deal with it at all. So quit whining and don't use it in your game. Secondly, if its given that you're using this house rule, yes, every sorcerer with action points could do this. Action Points, however, are a remarkable thing. PCs can use them because they are the Heroes of Eberron. They can do other, equally remarkable things like hitting when they normally couldn't, spontaneously casting a spell they normally couldn't, taking an extra action they normally couldn't, and so on; all of these abilities are available to the PCs. Why? Because they're Heroes. First: It was made my "problem" by posting the idea here, where you had asked about alternatives. Secondly: If it is a house rule and you are playing, then you have agreed to that rule. Why did you bring that point up? Third: Heroes are heroic and do heroic things, but that doesn't mean that the game mechanics behind the things they do shouldn't work in a balanced manner. Fourth: It is a rule of these boards to try and be polite in your posts, so do try to follow these rules more closely.
Arcane Guyver 07-23-05, 05:22 PM	Yes, every Sorceror with action points would be able to do this. That is my problem. NPCs typically do not take PC class levels unless they are supposed to be more noteworthy than joe schmoe the magewright or adept. That an NPC with PC class levels is exceptional, very true. However, looking at the various NPCs for Eberron already, very few with PC levels have the Heroic Surge feat. This is because that feat is supposed to be reserved for the main characters - both the PCs and villains (and that helpful yet shady guy who's allegiances are unclear). It's a matter of DM restraint. A good example: Eladryn d'Cannith from the modules. Sorcerer levels, no action points. Important to the story, but not THAT important. As far as more uses for APs...here are some ideas. * Look at the 'Campaign Cards' for Mark of Heroes. Many of those could double as feats. I especially like the one that allows the expendiature of an AP to make select move actions a swift action. * I use the 'Inspired Editing' thing from Mutants and Masterminds - spend an AP to gain some sort of advantage related to the character's surroundings. This doesn't mean "Okay, I want a pit to appear underneath the villain", but rather "I want a boulder nearby to Telekinese at my opponent" * Heroic Inspiration - spend an AP to get a hint from the DM. I guess the key is not to allow special new uses for AP for specific classes without requiring a feat. The Artificer has a special use for them, but that was built into the class from the get-go.
DoveArrow 07-24-05, 01:50 AM	:ahem: Action points are allowed to boost the following: Attack Rolls, Skill Checks, Ability Checks, Level Checks, and Saving Throws. ( Page 45 of the Eberron Campaign Setting ) Initiative is a Dexterity Check ( In other words an Ability Check ). ( Page 136 Player's Handbook, Second Sentence under the bold-faced "Initiative Checks" ) Yes you can spend an action point to improve your intiative check. Cool.