Action Points Equal Spell Immunity??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Action Points Equal Spell Immunity??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wraith428
04-24-06, 11:50 AM Okay the title is a bit of an over exageration but only to a point. I've been running the Age of Worms in Eberron since this last September. Characters from 1st to 12th level so far and once we got past the first 3 levels the characters have pretty much been immune to save vs. effect spells (i.e. charm person, suggestion, doom, fear, etc.)

The reason is action points. The players pretty much keep their action points for two uses, saves and attacks. When used on a save they can pretty much assure a questionable result becomes a success (especially at level 8+ where its roll 2d6 take the highest). Without a natural 1-4 on the d20 the PC never seem to fail.

It even applies to a lot of save for half effects as well.

Its really negated the power of magic in the campaign. For an NPC enemy to have any effect as a magic user it pretty much has to have direct damage or buff themself spells because the option of charming, scarring, fooling a PC, etc. rarely comes to fruition and the adversary becomes a cake walk.

Have any other DM's notice a trend like this or am I unique. To those who have experienced this have you had any creative ideas to solve the issue.

Thanks,

Wraith428
DarkWarriorKarg
04-24-06, 12:09 PM I've noticed it and embraced it... heck, one of the PCs is a paladin and his buddy is a halfling cleric (+insane to save vs fear, and usually staying near his paladin-bodyguard (this cleric is bad and combat)).

Fear effects? I don't count on them working. Although the srtificer did fail his save with cloakers... it was amusing...

Charms/Dominate? maybe on the rogue or the warforged ranger/thunderguide, but I don't really count on it there. Besides, players hate having their characters taken away from them. And even a 5% chance will give them pause.

Hold Person/monster? Since it's a save per round, none of my NPCs bother (neither do my PCs when I play).

So I concentrate on action-oriented combat, and enchanters that go "Impossible! That should have worked! Get them, my minions!" and then attempts to run away. The PCs love nothing more than pounding on a truly annoying villain who just sends charmed and dominated minions their way.
yossarius
04-24-06, 12:19 PM First, keep in mind that a character may only make one use of an action point in a round. So, have them face multiple spellcasters in an encounter. Have spellcaster A (with a high initiative) cast a spell that has the ability to deal a medium amount of damage. After the character spends an action point to enhance his save, have Spellcaster B cast a spell that does heavy damage. This tactic isn't meta-gaming. It's called a 1-2 punch.

Second, give your players more opportunities to use their action points. The RAW really only give two circumstances in combat where rolling a good result on a d20 is absolutely necessary: attack rolls & saving throws. I use the defense roll option from Unearthed Arcana. A few action points spent on important defense rolls are a few less spent to avoid spell effects.

And lastly, give some of your important NPCs the heroic Spirit feat, so that they can have a few action points of their own to use against the party. I wouldn't do this more than once per session, and maybe not even that often.
SpaceShot
04-24-06, 06:13 PM I dont find players have enough action points to really overuse this. I also think the options presented in Unearthed Arcana are a great starting point to including more uses for Action Points in your games. Just to whet your appetite for what those additional rules are, in the book's section on Action Points, they describe allowing characters to use them as one time enhancements for feats... perhaps an additional bonus to say... Improved Initiative.

Players only have five at first level, and the campaign setting does say they don't build up from level to level (as I think they aren't explicitly forbidden from doing in d20 Modern).

I've been long considering making any written uses that cost two action points to only cost one. My players are always running out of Action Points.
Korhal_IV
04-24-06, 07:47 PM Have you considered trying to up the DCs on the saving throws? Rebuild NPC stat blocks to get their casting stat as high as possible, throw in spell focus feats, the highest level spell they can get.
If your PCs no longer really fear enemy spellcasters, it's a legitimate problem. In recompense, the spellcasters will be weaker in other areas once you've redesigned them, so they'll be easier to kill off in that respect.

Try forcing your PCs to burn action points in different ways. In addition to burning action points on attacks and saves, your PCs can burn action points in the following ways: Activate Class Feature (smite evil and turn/rebuke undead fall under this - perhaps you can run an undead-heavy dungeon that forces the cleric to choose between conserving his AP and burning away more monsters?), Hasten Infusion (without an artificer, useless), and Stabilizing. My PCs always seem to need the last one - perhaps if you up the CR on a big tough melee monster like a dragon, you might see some PCs burn AP on this. It's good because the monster has knocked out a PC, but the PC hasn't died, and he's burned up another of those pesky AP. A monster with very high AC and spell immunity may also force the PCs to burn more AP on hitting it, leaving fewer to make saves with.

Finally, just hit them with more saves. They're level 12, you say? Well, a medusa is CR 8, so four medusas is CR 12. They each have a gaze attack, and the rules on gaze attack say that you have to make a saving throw against it at the start of every round. With four medusas, your PCs are rolling four Fortitude saves every round (not exactly a problem for a paladin and a cleric, I know). The medusas can also take a standard action to force another saving throw. If they have some method of extending combat or avoiding immediate death (tanglefoot bags, Displacement - I don't know, the highest party I ever ran is 7.5th level. :p), the medusas could grind down the PCs by sheer weight of saving throws. The nice part is that if this turns into a near-TPK, they can buy scrolls of Break Enchantment or Stone to Flesh in the nearest metropolis (and a 12th level party should be able to get to a metropolis pretty fast).
I wouldn't try to expand the uses for AP; you'll just wind up more frustrated as they use AP in new and innovative ways, and there's no guarantee that they'll stop using them for saves.

I find a lot of my PCs burning AP on skill checks - monks, rogues, or other Tumble monkeys might've been doing this at earlier levels. Throw more encounters that require the sudden and unexpected use of things like Balance and Jump at them, like a spellcaster who throws Grease on the floor as the paladin charges at him, or a beholder who's disintegrated enough of the floor to require the cleric to leap from one precarious ledge to another. Swim goes without mention...
(edit: my wizard PC burns a lot of AP on Knowledge checks. He'll roll something like a 19 to learn about the BBEG, I'll hiss, wince and ask hopefully "Do you want to burn an action point on that?" Then I'll give him some extra tidbit. ;))

In the end, you may just need to accept the fact that your PCs are built with very strong saving throws in mind. I mean, paladins have stellar saves, and so do clerics. The halfling bit is insult to injury. Maybe they're having more trouble in melee, or with maneuverability (both of them being heavy-plate folks). Those might be the kinds of challenges you need to throw at them - conjurers, not enchanters. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wraith428 04-24-06, 11:50 AM	Okay the title is a bit of an over exageration but only to a point. I've been running the Age of Worms in Eberron since this last September. Characters from 1st to 12th level so far and once we got past the first 3 levels the characters have pretty much been immune to save vs. effect spells (i.e. charm person, suggestion, doom, fear, etc.) The reason is action points. The players pretty much keep their action points for two uses, saves and attacks. When used on a save they can pretty much assure a questionable result becomes a success (especially at level 8+ where its roll 2d6 take the highest). Without a natural 1-4 on the d20 the PC never seem to fail. It even applies to a lot of save for half effects as well. Its really negated the power of magic in the campaign. For an NPC enemy to have any effect as a magic user it pretty much has to have direct damage or buff themself spells because the option of charming, scarring, fooling a PC, etc. rarely comes to fruition and the adversary becomes a cake walk. Have any other DM's notice a trend like this or am I unique. To those who have experienced this have you had any creative ideas to solve the issue. Thanks, Wraith428
DarkWarriorKarg 04-24-06, 12:09 PM	I've noticed it and embraced it... heck, one of the PCs is a paladin and his buddy is a halfling cleric (+insane to save vs fear, and usually staying near his paladin-bodyguard (this cleric is bad and combat)). Fear effects? I don't count on them working. Although the srtificer did fail his save with cloakers... it was amusing... Charms/Dominate? maybe on the rogue or the warforged ranger/thunderguide, but I don't really count on it there. Besides, players hate having their characters taken away from them. And even a 5% chance will give them pause. Hold Person/monster? Since it's a save per round, none of my NPCs bother (neither do my PCs when I play). So I concentrate on action-oriented combat, and enchanters that go "Impossible! That should have worked! Get them, my minions!" and then attempts to run away. The PCs love nothing more than pounding on a truly annoying villain who just sends charmed and dominated minions their way.
yossarius 04-24-06, 12:19 PM	First, keep in mind that a character may only make one use of an action point in a round. So, have them face multiple spellcasters in an encounter. Have spellcaster A (with a high initiative) cast a spell that has the ability to deal a medium amount of damage. After the character spends an action point to enhance his save, have Spellcaster B cast a spell that does heavy damage. This tactic isn't meta-gaming. It's called a 1-2 punch. Second, give your players more opportunities to use their action points. The RAW really only give two circumstances in combat where rolling a good result on a d20 is absolutely necessary: attack rolls & saving throws. I use the defense roll option from Unearthed Arcana. A few action points spent on important defense rolls are a few less spent to avoid spell effects. And lastly, give some of your important NPCs the heroic Spirit feat, so that they can have a few action points of their own to use against the party. I wouldn't do this more than once per session, and maybe not even that often.
SpaceShot 04-24-06, 06:13 PM	I dont find players have enough action points to really overuse this. I also think the options presented in Unearthed Arcana are a great starting point to including more uses for Action Points in your games. Just to whet your appetite for what those additional rules are, in the book's section on Action Points, they describe allowing characters to use them as one time enhancements for feats... perhaps an additional bonus to say... Improved Initiative. Players only have five at first level, and the campaign setting does say they don't build up from level to level (as I think they aren't explicitly forbidden from doing in d20 Modern). I've been long considering making any written uses that cost two action points to only cost one. My players are always running out of Action Points.
Korhal_IV 04-24-06, 07:47 PM	Have you considered trying to up the DCs on the saving throws? Rebuild NPC stat blocks to get their casting stat as high as possible, throw in spell focus feats, the highest level spell they can get. If your PCs no longer really fear enemy spellcasters, it's a legitimate problem. In recompense, the spellcasters will be weaker in other areas once you've redesigned them, so they'll be easier to kill off in that respect. Try forcing your PCs to burn action points in different ways. In addition to burning action points on attacks and saves, your PCs can burn action points in the following ways: Activate Class Feature (smite evil and turn/rebuke undead fall under this - perhaps you can run an undead-heavy dungeon that forces the cleric to choose between conserving his AP and burning away more monsters?), Hasten Infusion (without an artificer, useless), and Stabilizing. My PCs always seem to need the last one - perhaps if you up the CR on a big tough melee monster like a dragon, you might see some PCs burn AP on this. It's good because the monster has knocked out a PC, but the PC hasn't died, and he's burned up another of those pesky AP. A monster with very high AC and spell immunity may also force the PCs to burn more AP on hitting it, leaving fewer to make saves with. Finally, just hit them with more saves. They're level 12, you say? Well, a medusa is CR 8, so four medusas is CR 12. They each have a gaze attack, and the rules on gaze attack say that you have to make a saving throw against it at the start of every round. With four medusas, your PCs are rolling four Fortitude saves every round (not exactly a problem for a paladin and a cleric, I know). The medusas can also take a standard action to force another saving throw. If they have some method of extending combat or avoiding immediate death (tanglefoot bags, Displacement - I don't know, the highest party I ever ran is 7.5th level. :p), the medusas could grind down the PCs by sheer weight of saving throws. The nice part is that if this turns into a near-TPK, they can buy scrolls of Break Enchantment or Stone to Flesh in the nearest metropolis (and a 12th level party should be able to get to a metropolis pretty fast). I wouldn't try to expand the uses for AP; you'll just wind up more frustrated as they use AP in new and innovative ways, and there's no guarantee that they'll stop using them for saves. I find a lot of my PCs burning AP on skill checks - monks, rogues, or other Tumble monkeys might've been doing this at earlier levels. Throw more encounters that require the sudden and unexpected use of things like Balance and Jump at them, like a spellcaster who throws Grease on the floor as the paladin charges at him, or a beholder who's disintegrated enough of the floor to require the cleric to leap from one precarious ledge to another. Swim goes without mention... (edit: my wizard PC burns a lot of AP on Knowledge checks. He'll roll something like a 19 to learn about the BBEG, I'll hiss, wince and ask hopefully "Do you want to burn an action point on that?" Then I'll give him some extra tidbit. ;)) In the end, you may just need to accept the fact that your PCs are built with very strong saving throws in mind. I mean, paladins have stellar saves, and so do clerics. The halfling bit is insult to injury. Maybe they're having more trouble in melee, or with maneuverability (both of them being heavy-plate folks). Those might be the kinds of challenges you need to throw at them - conjurers, not enchanters. :P