Action Points Idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Action Points Idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bhasu
07-21-07, 09:59 AM Actually,I was hoping for a bit of clarification on something.

I was thinking about how dramatically appropriate it would be to be able to use action points to bump up the DC of one of your character's class abilities and what not.

Sometimes your back is to the wall, and you just need to push your curse past that will save. (from a hexblade pov)

*You focus your mind on the dark sorcerer and will your curse into effect. You feel resistance building as he struggles to resist your power. You steel yourself and channel your inner reserves of power to the task at hand, sweat beading on your forehead from the strain.

As you glare at your enemy, you notice the strain is evident on his face as well, as he glares at you through gritted teeth. Knowing that if you fail here, you and your companions will all die, or worse, you center yourself and give one last push.

Finally, you feel the resistance give all at once. He stumbles backwards as you blast through the walls of willpower he had erected and your curse takes effect. He stands there, holding his head for a moment and the glares at you. The sorcerer focuses on you, and gestures wildly. Nothing happens. He stares at his hands, trying to figure out what went wrong as your companions rush in.

You try to follow them, but find yourself too dizzy to move in the aftermath of the strain. *

I dont know if it might have been covered somewhere before, possibly in a book I don't own. If it hasn't, I think this could be of use. It fits with the feel of the game. (think Star Wars, or Big Trouble in Little China) Sometimes your innate power just needs a little push. Just a bit more juice.

Possibly, spend an action point to roll 1d6 and add that to the save DC of your ability. Spend the same amount of rounds dazed from the strain.

Just an idea. Thanks.

-B
Amaril
07-21-07, 01:11 PM Spell save DCs have a base value of 10, and if you adopt the variant rule of rolling d20 instead of assuming a base DC 10, the idea isn't that far fetch. I'm considering adopting this variant as well as the roll for AC (minus the base 10) to add to the variability and high action of Eberron and action points.
RFrenchJr
07-21-07, 01:22 PM That's an interesting variant and one I think I'll try with the group I'm in.
Amaril
07-21-07, 02:55 PM Yeah, when I read it, I immediately fell in love with the concept. In the sidebar, the developers explained that the base ten is effectively "taking 10" on defense and spell DCs.

The variant of the spell DC combined with AP empowers the player by potentially increasing the spell's DC rather than a flat value (ignoring spell focus). The caveat is that it has the potential to weaken the spell's DC, too. On the flipside, most NPCs and monsters don't have AP, which keeps the power leaning toward the player.
bhasu
07-21-07, 05:37 PM I just thought it fit. I was thinking about, and it seems, thematically, it works best with will saves.
Amaril
07-21-07, 05:40 PM By the way, I think that variant rule is in the DMG in a sidebar.
bhasu
07-21-07, 05:48 PM Thanks! My DMG has been in storage for months.

I have all my other books (they were newer purchases) with me, but somehow my core books got boxed up and sealed inside an upside-down piece of furniture.

I have been living off of the SRD.

I may just buy new ones ;)
bhasu
07-23-07, 03:32 PM Talked with my DM (in iraq now) and we simplified the house rule.

If you choose to roll instead of taking 10, you may choose to roll an action point, as it is a d20 roll, and action points may be used to modify any d20 roll.

The act of rolling vs taking 10 shows extra effort on the casters part, and if you roll poorly? Well obviously the other wizard had his mental defenses up.

We nixed the dazing, since fighters dont get tires after using APs.
Belkar
07-25-07, 04:48 PM Hmmm. This seems really powerful. Beyond the scope of normal action point abilities. I mean, it costs you a feat just to use action points to give yourself a measley move action... using them to boost the DC of a spell? Wow.

Consider... You can take a feat (a feat, mind you... quite the rare thing to a caster) to up your save DC. By one. In just one single school of magic.

When examining the Beguiler class... one of their special abilities raises the DC of a spell by only one point when the foe is flat footed (this is considered commensurate with sneak attack...).

It might be balanced, but I'd only allow the action point to bump up the DC by one point.

Now... as to the variant rolling system - that's another thing. Keeping the standard base 10 method, I don't know if it would be overpowering or not. Perhaps you could spend an action point to choose to roll a d20 instead of using the base 10.

That actually evens it out some... because you can see great success, or great failure...

Just a thought!
Amaril
07-25-07, 05:16 PM Belkar, the action point is only rolled if you choose to not assume the base 10 DC and instead roll d20 as the base for it.

Traditional DC: 10 + ability modifier + spell level

Roll for DC: d20 + ability modifier + spell level

In the case rolling, there is a 50% chance of getting equal to or lesser than what's assumed with the base 10.

I'd also disagree with using an action point to roll a d20. Using an action point for augmenting a die roll always allows you to increase the value. Spending an action point to roll gives you a 50% chance of having no effect other than wasting an action point.
Belkar
07-25-07, 06:46 PM Belkar, the action point is only rolled if you choose to not assume the base 10 DC and instead roll d20 as the base for it.

Sorry... I guess I wasn't too clear...:blush: I understand how it's applied. And as such, I think it's horribly overpowered.

You're saying that you're going to add a d6 to the DC when spending an action point? It takes feats and boss class features to increase a DC by one single point! A d6 is waaaay to much. and I don't think it's in line (power-wise) of any other use of an action point.

I understand action points can be used to modify "any d20," but you're quoting rules written on the assumption that a DC is a set number. You're interpreting canon ECS rules using a variant system (granted, a fun one! and I think I'll use it myself at some point ;) ).

I'd also disagree with using an action point to roll a d20. Using an action point for augmenting a die roll always allows you to increase the value. Spending an action point to roll gives you a 50% chance of having no effect other than wasting an action point.

Yeah... that makes perfect sense. I agree. Scrap that... ;)
Amaril
07-25-07, 07:14 PM Sorry... I guess I wasn't too clear...:blush: I understand how it's applied. And as such, I think it's horribly overpowered.

You're saying that you're going to add a d6 to the DC when spending an action point? It takes feats and boss class features to increase a DC by one single point! A d6 is waaaay to much. and I don't think it's in line (power-wise) of any other use of an action point.

I understand action points can be used to modify "any d20," but you're quoting rules written on the assumption that a DC is a set number. You're interpreting canon ECS rules using a variant system (granted, a fun one! and I think I'll use it myself at some point ;) ).
Fair enough, but let's look at this in reverse. The feats to increase spell DCs were also created with the assumption that there is no other way to do so and that the base for the DC is always 10. Spell Focus is an always on effect, too, which is much more powerful than a limited pool of points that can be used for a number of options. Additionally, we all know that the first feats were not all created equal. Look at Dodge, Endurance or Run for examples of relatively weak feats.

Also know that rolling a d20 and applying an action point doesn't always equate to a value higher than when "taking 10."

So now you have an option (action points) that

has a limited number of uses per round (once used for spell DC, you can't use it to make a save in the same round)
limited pool per character level
not always on (actually have to choose to make the roll)
only has a chance of bettering the result
That's a far cry from a feat that's always active and being applied.

Also consider the investment of potentially wasting an action point if the opposed saving throw still beat the DC or was so low that it didn't need to be spent.
bhasu
07-25-07, 07:23 PM taking it into flavor text consideration, Chris (my aforementioned DM)
basically agreed on the fact that sometimes, no matter how hard you try, you still fail.

And really, If you balance it with possibly adding 6 points to a jump check, a strength check or an attack roll for taking that impossibly far off shot with your bow...

And furthermore... It would be a big risk to sacrifice 50% of your success potential to try something risky.

Sometimes though, it pays off.

and action points were build for those big risk moments...

And cloaked casting is a pretty cool ability for beguilers.
Amaril
07-25-07, 07:30 PM Well said, bhasu. Well said.
Rekko
07-25-07, 11:37 PM I agree with Bhasu. Action points could be taken for any d20 rolls (that isn't damage) including AC and spell DCs.

However, why wouldn't you let a player take an action point while 'taking 10' on his AC or spell DC? I think I would allow it. Well, I haven't think hard on the matter, so maybe I'm wrong.

Rekko
Amaril
07-25-07, 11:40 PM Because it's not a roll, and it can greatly skew the power of such things. Imagine randomly boosting your AC by up to 6.

For me, it's a simple issue of adding greater variability and excitement to the game.
bhasu
07-26-07, 09:13 PM I agree with Amaril there.
When you are taking 10, you lose 50% of the risk, so the action point would bump it too much, like he said.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bhasu 07-21-07, 09:59 AM	Actually,I was hoping for a bit of clarification on something. I was thinking about how dramatically appropriate it would be to be able to use action points to bump up the DC of one of your character's class abilities and what not. Sometimes your back is to the wall, and you just need to push your curse past that will save. (from a hexblade pov) You focus your mind on the dark sorcerer and will your curse into effect. You feel resistance building as he struggles to resist your power. You steel yourself and channel your inner reserves of power to the task at hand, sweat beading on your forehead from the strain. As you glare at your enemy, you notice the strain is evident on his face as well, as he glares at you through gritted teeth. Knowing that if you fail here, you and your companions will all die, or worse, you center yourself and give one last push. Finally, you feel the resistance give all at once. He stumbles backwards as you blast through the walls of willpower he had erected and your curse takes effect. He stands there, holding his head for a moment and the glares at you. The sorcerer focuses on you, and gestures wildly. Nothing happens. He stares at his hands, trying to figure out what went wrong as your companions rush in. You try to follow them, but find yourself too dizzy to move in the aftermath of the strain. I dont know if it might have been covered somewhere before, possibly in a book I don't own. If it hasn't, I think this could be of use. It fits with the feel of the game. (think Star Wars, or Big Trouble in Little China) Sometimes your innate power just needs a little push. Just a bit more juice. Possibly, spend an action point to roll 1d6 and add that to the save DC of your ability. Spend the same amount of rounds dazed from the strain. Just an idea. Thanks. -B
Amaril 07-21-07, 01:11 PM	Spell save DCs have a base value of 10, and if you adopt the variant rule of rolling d20 instead of assuming a base DC 10, the idea isn't that far fetch. I'm considering adopting this variant as well as the roll for AC (minus the base 10) to add to the variability and high action of Eberron and action points.
RFrenchJr 07-21-07, 01:22 PM	That's an interesting variant and one I think I'll try with the group I'm in.
Amaril 07-21-07, 02:55 PM	Yeah, when I read it, I immediately fell in love with the concept. In the sidebar, the developers explained that the base ten is effectively "taking 10" on defense and spell DCs. The variant of the spell DC combined with AP empowers the player by potentially increasing the spell's DC rather than a flat value (ignoring spell focus). The caveat is that it has the potential to weaken the spell's DC, too. On the flipside, most NPCs and monsters don't have AP, which keeps the power leaning toward the player.
bhasu 07-21-07, 05:37 PM	I just thought it fit. I was thinking about, and it seems, thematically, it works best with will saves.
Amaril 07-21-07, 05:40 PM	By the way, I think that variant rule is in the DMG in a sidebar.
bhasu 07-21-07, 05:48 PM	Thanks! My DMG has been in storage for months. I have all my other books (they were newer purchases) with me, but somehow my core books got boxed up and sealed inside an upside-down piece of furniture. I have been living off of the SRD. I may just buy new ones ;)
bhasu 07-23-07, 03:32 PM	Talked with my DM (in iraq now) and we simplified the house rule. If you choose to roll instead of taking 10, you may choose to roll an action point, as it is a d20 roll, and action points may be used to modify any d20 roll. The act of rolling vs taking 10 shows extra effort on the casters part, and if you roll poorly? Well obviously the other wizard had his mental defenses up. We nixed the dazing, since fighters dont get tires after using APs.
Belkar 07-25-07, 04:48 PM	Hmmm. This seems really powerful. Beyond the scope of normal action point abilities. I mean, it costs you a feat just to use action points to give yourself a measley move action... using them to boost the DC of a spell? Wow. Consider... You can take a feat (a feat, mind you... quite the rare thing to a caster) to up your save DC. By one. In just one single school of magic. When examining the Beguiler class... one of their special abilities raises the DC of a spell by only one point when the foe is flat footed (this is considered commensurate with sneak attack...). It might be balanced, but I'd only allow the action point to bump up the DC by one point. Now... as to the variant rolling system - that's another thing. Keeping the standard base 10 method, I don't know if it would be overpowering or not. Perhaps you could spend an action point to choose to roll a d20 instead of using the base 10. That actually evens it out some... because you can see great success, or great failure... Just a thought!
Amaril 07-25-07, 05:16 PM	Belkar, the action point is only rolled if you choose to not assume the base 10 DC and instead roll d20 as the base for it. Traditional DC: 10 + ability modifier + spell level Roll for DC: d20 + ability modifier + spell level In the case rolling, there is a 50% chance of getting equal to or lesser than what's assumed with the base 10. I'd also disagree with using an action point to roll a d20. Using an action point for augmenting a die roll always allows you to increase the value. Spending an action point to roll gives you a 50% chance of having no effect other than wasting an action point.
Belkar 07-25-07, 06:46 PM	Belkar, the action point is only rolled if you choose to not assume the base 10 DC and instead roll d20 as the base for it. Sorry... I guess I wasn't too clear...:blush: I understand how it's applied. And as such, I think it's horribly overpowered. You're saying that you're going to add a d6 to the DC when spending an action point? It takes feats and boss class features to increase a DC by one single point! A d6 is waaaay to much. and I don't think it's in line (power-wise) of any other use of an action point. I understand action points can be used to modify "any d20," but you're quoting rules written on the assumption that a DC is a set number. You're interpreting canon ECS rules using a variant system (granted, a fun one! and I think I'll use it myself at some point ;) ). I'd also disagree with using an action point to roll a d20. Using an action point for augmenting a die roll always allows you to increase the value. Spending an action point to roll gives you a 50% chance of having no effect other than wasting an action point. Yeah... that makes perfect sense. I agree. Scrap that... ;)
Amaril 07-25-07, 07:14 PM	Sorry... I guess I wasn't too clear...:blush: I understand how it's applied. And as such, I think it's horribly overpowered. You're saying that you're going to add a d6 to the DC when spending an action point? It takes feats and boss class features to increase a DC by one single point! A d6 is waaaay to much. and I don't think it's in line (power-wise) of any other use of an action point. I understand action points can be used to modify "any d20," but you're quoting rules written on the assumption that a DC is a set number. You're interpreting canon ECS rules using a variant system (granted, a fun one! and I think I'll use it myself at some point ;) ). Fair enough, but let's look at this in reverse. The feats to increase spell DCs were also created with the assumption that there is no other way to do so and that the base for the DC is always 10. Spell Focus is an always on effect, too, which is much more powerful than a limited pool of points that can be used for a number of options. Additionally, we all know that the first feats were not all created equal. Look at Dodge, Endurance or Run for examples of relatively weak feats. Also know that rolling a d20 and applying an action point doesn't always equate to a value higher than when "taking 10." So now you have an option (action points) that has a limited number of uses per round (once used for spell DC, you can't use it to make a save in the same round) limited pool per character level not always on (actually have to choose to make the roll) only has a chance of bettering the result That's a far cry from a feat that's always active and being applied. Also consider the investment of potentially wasting an action point if the opposed saving throw still beat the DC or was so low that it didn't need to be spent.
bhasu 07-25-07, 07:23 PM	taking it into flavor text consideration, Chris (my aforementioned DM) basically agreed on the fact that sometimes, no matter how hard you try, you still fail. And really, If you balance it with possibly adding 6 points to a jump check, a strength check or an attack roll for taking that impossibly far off shot with your bow... And furthermore... It would be a big risk to sacrifice 50% of your success potential to try something risky. Sometimes though, it pays off. and action points were build for those big risk moments... And cloaked casting is a pretty cool ability for beguilers.
Amaril 07-25-07, 07:30 PM	Well said, bhasu. Well said.
Rekko 07-25-07, 11:37 PM	I agree with Bhasu. Action points could be taken for any d20 rolls (that isn't damage) including AC and spell DCs. However, why wouldn't you let a player take an action point while 'taking 10' on his AC or spell DC? I think I would allow it. Well, I haven't think hard on the matter, so maybe I'm wrong. Rekko
Amaril 07-25-07, 11:40 PM	Because it's not a roll, and it can greatly skew the power of such things. Imagine randomly boosting your AC by up to 6. For me, it's a simple issue of adding greater variability and excitement to the game.
bhasu 07-26-07, 09:13 PM	I agree with Amaril there. When you are taking 10, you lose 50% of the risk, so the action point would bump it too much, like he said.