action points impact on the game? [Archive] - Wizards Community

action points impact on the game? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MMaster
12-11-04, 03:56 AM I'm thinking about starting an Eberron campaign in the near future but I'm a bit concerned about the action points, the reaction of my DM personality upon reading the chapter was UUCK!! :noway:
But before I start not allowing stuff I wanted to know what your experiences wore, do they add to the flavor ? do pc's really need them ?
In addition, reading the rules, action points are intended only for the pcs, witch is something I dont much agree with (i'm the "whatever you use i will as well" sort of DM, fair is fair, not that i'm out to kill my players thought), any advice on the matter ?
thanks in advance for your help
Brastan
12-11-04, 04:49 AM Action points = :cool:ness
Read carefully, they only work 1 AP per round. The point of Action points is to make the PCs more heroic. Eberron place much infuses on the PCs as being special. If you have qualms about the abuse of the system then make your players describe the action they take when they roll that d6. Make sure that it has flare, something worth of an action movie freeze frame moment.

Having used Action points under both d20 Modern and Eberron they have only a slight influence. Most of the times I've seen action points use is when the PCs are within 4 or more of the goal and its comes out to a 50/50 chance of success. Also using them to stabilize is great if you don't use them for anything else make sure to use that. Action point use during a level tends to work out to on 1 AP per XP(need to level)/ Max AP available. Or they get used all at one during a major fight and the players start cursing when they don't have any for later uses.

Also remember they have to declare usage before you tell them if the succeeded.

(Also, most players new to the system forget about them until least until 2nd or 3rd level ;) )

Use them. If the lack of AP for villains doesn't sit well then by all means, give full access to Major villains.
ThanisKartaleon
12-11-04, 05:07 AM Eberron is made for lower-powered PCs (we're talking 28 point buy or less), so action points make up for the fact that they might not be as strong/dextrous/fit/smart/wise/charismatic as your standard munchkinized FR PC.

If your party is composed of PCs with 17s and 18s in more than one stat, action points might not see much use.

On another note, remember that action points are "use 'em or lose 'em"; they are refreshed each level, not added to.

so once you keep in mind that:

they're made for low-power PCs
they can only be used once per round
they have to be used before the DM relates the success or failure of the roll
and the fact that they refresh each level

then they're not so over-powered and are in fact pretty darn cool.

IMC, I expand the use of action points a little. For 2 action points, any PC may, for that round, emulate a feat that they have the prerequisites for; e.g. a wizard with 13 strength could emulate Power Attack.

Basically the, um, point, of action points is to make battles more cinematic, cliffhanger style. Just my thoughts on the subject.
BullyBoy
12-11-04, 06:29 AM In addition, reading the rules, action points are intended only for the pcs, witch is something I dont much agree with (i'm the "whatever you use i will as well" sort of DM, fair is fair, not that i'm out to kill my players thought), any advice on the matter ?

Your aim as DM shouldn't be to make the game "fair", but to make it "fun". I have found this is what action points tend to do!
In Eberron, the characters are supposed to be heroes. If you deny them action points, you are making them one of the many hundred other explorers out there.
Ormazd
12-11-04, 11:52 AM Also using them to stabilize is great if you don't use them for anything else make sure to use that.

I have to agree with Brastan here. APs don't have a major influence on particular combats, but knowing that your players can automatically stabilize if they hold on to one AP allows me to throw creatures at them and not worry about "pulling punches" to avoid killing PCs. I am not opposed to killing PCs, in general, but no one wants to lose a favorite character against a wandering monster, so it's nice that they have a back-up that allows me to just go for it with monsters and not have to fudge dice rolls very often.

O
philopharynx
12-11-04, 12:24 PM In my game, we often save action points for the "Oh {feces}!" moments. The save against petrification, the blow that might take down the BBEG when you have somebody in single digit hit points, and things like that.

I do allow major named villans to have action points. One advantage of action points for villians is spending them to escape certain death (as long as I can find a way to do it). If the players can't find a way to undo it quickly, he'll getaway for good.

For example, they face the BBEG in his lair. He's on the ropes and he bolts for the fireplace. Since the BBEG knows it's a secret door, he can activate it as a move action. The players will need to figure it out first, which should slow them down. But if a player decides to pull out his adamantine axe and manages to chop through it quickly the chase is on... (of course if they do manage to catch and finish him, he'll have a letter on him from a mysterious figure that is even more shadowy and sinister.)
Edymnion
12-11-04, 01:48 PM Yeah, typically players don't think to use their AP, always wanting to save them for that "Oh :censored:" moment to pull their butts outta the fire. Which usually means they waste AP by leveling up when they still have some available.

And the DM can always override when an AP gets used if they start trying to abuse them. It really does need to be that big freeze frame moment that demands a really cool description to make it work.

For example, say you're on a swaying bridge, and you need to make a balance check to keep from falling off. You make your check, and you know its low, you can throw in an AP. Think something along the lines of Indiana Jones pulling out his whip and cracking it around to grab a ledge while falling, and he just hangs there swinging in the breeze going "whew...."

Thats an AP moment.

Think of the anime moment where somebody just suddenly charges into a fight unnexpectedly, with the big brightly colored background full of action motion lines, in order to sucker punch the badguy. That would be an AP used on the init roll.

Think of the cinematic moment when Arnold the Barbarian (sorry, Conan the Barbarian) slams their weapon against the evil artifact, freeze frame as the blade hits it, and nothing seems to happen, the slow motion of the blade crashing through the idol. Thats an AP to add damage to the blow to get past the hardness.

Think of the movie moment where the hero is in the middle of a pitched battle, raises his gun/blaster, and all of the background noise dies as he slowly takes his aim, pulls the trigger, and the camera follows behind the shot as it hits the target square in the chest. Thats an AP bonus to the To Hit roll.

Basically, AP help make the game flashier, more exciting. They really haven't had much impact on balance at all (and really, with the lack of high level magic in the game, you NEED those AP for things like Save or Die spells, because there simply isn't anybody that can cast Raise Dead).
hippi
12-11-04, 03:18 PM I believe that action points are a good way to avoid embaresing scenes. For example the monk that has +13 on tumble rolls a 1 on a tumble check to impress the local crowd.

He doesn't want to be humiliated so he uses an action point.
Haldstaff_Dundragon
12-11-04, 04:27 PM Eberron adventures also tend to favor intrigue and swashbuckling action over dungeon crawling, so fights should be less common, but more interesting. AP's help balance the fact that most fights will be something of an EL equal to or higher than the party's level.

Having AP's also makes the party a little more daring. They are willing to jump that chasm rather than looking for a longer, safer way around. My players would literally crawl through a hallway looking for traps in a regular game (which get's very boring for me to DM), but just charge down the hall full tilt to rescue the damsel, traps be damned. I fully believe their willingness to take the risk is attributed to their belief that even if they roll poorly, action points will save them. And pc's NOT taking 45 mins. of game time crawling through featureless hallways makes the game a lot more fun for me to run.
superdeadsmurf
12-11-04, 06:26 PM Denying action points to players who want to play an artificer is also a big mistake. Seeing as how most infusions haves casting times of 1 minute, they'll very seldom get used without the action point use to bring the casting time down to a round (this also works nice when you can't wait an hour to cast Identify! :D)
(Psi)SeveredHead
12-11-04, 09:16 PM IMO APs are fine but with two caveats:

1) Why don't NPCs get them? In D20 Modern NPCs get 1 AP per 2 levels (if they have heroic class levels). This is less than what the PCs get, but the NPC gets less "screen time" so it's alright. (It prevents problems like NPC spellcasters being more powerful than PC spellcasters despite having less gear.)

Otherwise it's a player beef that wasn't really needed, when you consider NPCs (the non-spellcasting ones, at least) are always weaker than the PCs past 3rd-level or so due to inequities in magic item possession.

2) Some of the AP feats are not balanced. Same thing with some of the bard feats (especially the one that gives you 4 extra spellsongs at first level. Maybe that got errata'd.

Eberron has great flavor, but WotC's approach to curnch always results in a mixed bag.
Edymnion
12-11-04, 09:21 PM IMO APs are fine but with two caveats:

1) Why don't NPCs get them?When was the last time you saw the badguys pull of something incredible? Its called the Storm Trooper effect for a reason ;)
MMaster
12-12-04, 04:33 AM thanks for all the input, guess i will just give them a try, see how i get along with them and how my players react to their introduction in the game
philopharynx
12-12-04, 02:53 PM Denying action points to players who want to play an artificer is also a big mistake. Seeing as how most infusions haves casting times of 1 minute, they'll very seldom get used without the action point use to bring the casting time down to a round (this also works nice when you can't wait an hour to cast Identify! :D)

Not a problem for my artificer. He's from house Tharashk and can identify things in one round without spending 100gp for a pearl or any action points. Least Dragonmark of finding. It's very useful when you find some cool treasure in the game and want to use it immediately.
atanhel
12-12-04, 04:14 PM to make villans seem interesting, but not screwing with the game, conside giving them the feat heroic spirit.
they prbably won't use more than 3 actions points because the PC's will probably have killed/have been killed by him.
but it might be interresting when the evil wizzard resists the poison inflicted on him, becuase he made his save.
Trust me, those moments even the most cofident player will fall silent, and you can almost hear the players think: OMG we're gonna die!
Those momants around the playing table are omong the best a DM can get :D
(Psi)SeveredHead
12-12-04, 04:56 PM When was the last time you saw the badguys pull of something incredible? Its called the Storm Trooper effect for a reason ;)

Boo-urns! Cool villains are, well, cooler. Usually the henchmen and main villain are heroes and can do cool stuff. If they can't, then they're just obstacles waiting to be steamrolled.
ThanisKartaleon
12-12-04, 05:04 PM indeed, Heroic Spirit + Action Boost + Levels in Extreme Explorer or Dragonmark Heir (or Heir of Syberis to be really nasty) = more AP than the villain truly needs, especially if they are a level 5 EE.
JabBond
12-13-04, 12:05 AM Not a problem for my artificer. He's from house Tharashk and can identify things in one round without spending 100gp for a pearl or any action points. Least Dragonmark of finding. It's very useful when you find some cool treasure in the game and want to use it immediately.

Ummm. you might want to double-check on that one, I believe it functions like the spell and will still take him an hour. Not for sure, the DMG wasn't really explicit on that one, other than they can't be dispelled but don't work in anti-magic areas... but you're right about it being useful. Funny, all of our magic items get ID'ed by our Tharashk fighter.
philopharynx
12-13-04, 03:39 PM Ummm. you might want to double-check on that one, I believe it functions like the spell and will still take him an hour. Not for sure, the DMG wasn't really explicit on that one, other than they can't be dispelled but don't work in anti-magic areas... but you're right about it being useful. Funny, all of our magic items get ID'ed by our Tharashk fighter.

Nope. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise in the source that gives you the ability. This has been brought up before in various other threads. Still it's only 1/day, which limits it's usefulness.
kisama
12-13-04, 04:11 PM I had my first go at DM'ing last week and I had my players burning through the actions points whenever they could. My background being shadowrun, I thought of action points as a limited form of Karma for the players.

One really good encounter we had was when got into a fight with some gumby rogues. The party shifter runs for a room and closes the door behind himself just as two of the baddies managed to get to the door. He then shifts and on his next action says he's going to try to break the door off the hinges and bullrush the two bad guys on the other side. I tell him if he uses an action point and succeeds we can try to work in some kind of cool effect.

He rolls an 18 on his D20 and on the action point roll, gets a 6. His strength when shifted is 19, so at this point I tell him he takes the door clear off it's hinges. Both bad guys at this point have to make reflex saves to get out the path of the oncoming door. One makes the save, the other does not. What happense next is the shifter pushes the door and the bad guy trapped behind it 5 feet back and into the banister behind them. The banister breaks and the bad guy, door and the shifter go over the side and on to the stairs below and then proceed to slide down the stairs, taking out another bad guy on the way down.
The whole ride down, the bad guys are caught between the floor and the door with the shifter is riding on top riding hanging on for dear life.

The funniest part is when the shifter, door and bad guys stop at the bottom, I ask the player what do you do now? He replies "you ever see that movie where this bear jumps John Candy and get him pinned under a door and proceeds to jump up and down on the door? That's what I do!" After thrashing up and down on the door for a few rounds I tell him the guys under the door are in no condition to fight.

This was totaly cheesy but it had us laughing out asses off. That's what the game is all about. :)
superdeadsmurf
12-13-04, 04:25 PM Nope. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise in the source that gives you the ability. This has been brought up before in various other threads. Still it's only 1/day, which limits it's usefulness.

I believe that is incorrect, a spell-like ability that copies a named spell effect takes the same casting time by default.
atanhel
12-13-04, 04:51 PM This was totaly cheesy but it had us laughing out asses off. That's what the game is all about. :)

dude: way cool :cool:
your so right, these moments make sitting in your room trying to fix your game befor next friday all worth it! :D
MBuckalew
12-13-04, 05:26 PM My concern with the use of the points is not with balance, but pacing. I'm concerned about it slowing the game down. I've got 8 regular players and combat already takes quite a bit of time to play through.

The players try to help by rolling attack, damage, and miss chance dice at the same time, and roll iterative attacks together as well. Depending on the atmosphere at the time, I may give check and save DCs before asking for rolls, so that I can a group response instead of person-by-person.

It looks like we would have to stop taking those shortcuts to make use of Action Points. Also, I can picture my players taking extra time to do rough calcs for each roll :eek: before deciding to use action points. Some are quicker at math/keeping track of mods than others and I don't want to favor them by forcing some sort of time limit.

What are people's experiences with regards to Action Points and pacing?
Kanne
12-13-04, 05:57 PM I dont find that acton Points slow down combat much, after a few rounds my players seem to catch on to what the baddies AC is and how much HP they got, so when they know that a 15 isnt gonna cut it they toss a point on it. and its not my fault if they decide to waste them all on goblins. :P
Gurv
12-13-04, 06:09 PM I've noticed that players tend to spend them quickly, with the wiser ones keeping one on hand for life-or-death rolls.

For the most part, they've allowed them a second chance a few times, but never done anything to alter the course of the campaign. I have one player planning on taking as many AP feats as he can, so I'll let you know if he manages to do anything impressive that way. But even if he does, it'll be balanced by the feats he could have otherwise taken.
slythero
12-13-04, 10:28 PM AP's add a lot to the game. More often than not they are used on saves that *might* succeed or attacks that *might* hit. They are significantly less heroic than I initially thought, but they do add a lot of spice to the game. It's nice to know my warforged can pass a Reflex save every now and then.
The most significant use of AP's I've seen is to stabilize a dying character. If you are one of those sadistic DM's that enjoys watching your players bleed to death over the course of 7 or so rounds, then AP's aren't for you.
Of course, that's not to say AP's are worthless. They are by no means gamebreaking, but they can help your PC's pass a crucial save or land a blow against a particularly tough opponent.

Oh, and if you want NPC's with action points, just give them Heroic Spirit:P

Bottom line: keep them in.
Sucros
12-13-04, 10:56 PM I think it gives DMs a chance to throw more horrid encounters at the PCs. Makes it more intense when you're relying on that very rare resource.
Ramses III
12-14-04, 04:58 PM I like the idea of AP -- especially because I really want to play a fighter, and it would be nice to not have to rely on failing all of my will saves!
philopharynx
12-15-04, 01:10 AM I believe that is incorrect, a spell-like ability that copies a named spell effect takes the same casting time by default.

Using a spell-like ability is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Sometimes using a spell-like ability can be a free action or a full-round action, or it can have an even longer activation time. However, it's a standard action unless the ability description specifically says otherwise. A creature using a spell-like ability can use all the tricks that a spellcaster can use to avoid that nasty attack of opportunity. The creature can take a 5-foot step before using the ability (so as to get out of a threatened area). The creature also can make a Concentration check to use the ability defensively.

Enough with the tangent.

As for pacing it doesn't affect the game in my experience. The DM simply waits for a beat after the player announces the roll. If the player doesn't say they want to use the action point, they lose the chance. Most of the time, the player knows that they're close enough for the action point to possibly make a difference.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MMaster 12-11-04, 03:56 AM	I'm thinking about starting an Eberron campaign in the near future but I'm a bit concerned about the action points, the reaction of my DM personality upon reading the chapter was UUCK!! :noway: But before I start not allowing stuff I wanted to know what your experiences wore, do they add to the flavor ? do pc's really need them ? In addition, reading the rules, action points are intended only for the pcs, witch is something I dont much agree with (i'm the "whatever you use i will as well" sort of DM, fair is fair, not that i'm out to kill my players thought), any advice on the matter ? thanks in advance for your help
Brastan 12-11-04, 04:49 AM	Action points = :cool:ness Read carefully, they only work 1 AP per round. The point of Action points is to make the PCs more heroic. Eberron place much infuses on the PCs as being special. If you have qualms about the abuse of the system then make your players describe the action they take when they roll that d6. Make sure that it has flare, something worth of an action movie freeze frame moment. Having used Action points under both d20 Modern and Eberron they have only a slight influence. Most of the times I've seen action points use is when the PCs are within 4 or more of the goal and its comes out to a 50/50 chance of success. Also using them to stabilize is great if you don't use them for anything else make sure to use that. Action point use during a level tends to work out to on 1 AP per XP(need to level)/ Max AP available. Or they get used all at one during a major fight and the players start cursing when they don't have any for later uses. Also remember they have to declare usage before you tell them if the succeeded. (Also, most players new to the system forget about them until least until 2nd or 3rd level ;) ) Use them. If the lack of AP for villains doesn't sit well then by all means, give full access to Major villains.
ThanisKartaleon 12-11-04, 05:07 AM	Eberron is made for lower-powered PCs (we're talking 28 point buy or less), so action points make up for the fact that they might not be as strong/dextrous/fit/smart/wise/charismatic as your standard munchkinized FR PC. If your party is composed of PCs with 17s and 18s in more than one stat, action points might not see much use. On another note, remember that action points are "use 'em or lose 'em"; they are refreshed each level, not added to. so once you keep in mind that: they're made for low-power PCs they can only be used once per round they have to be used before the DM relates the success or failure of the roll and the fact that they refresh each level then they're not so over-powered and are in fact pretty darn cool. IMC, I expand the use of action points a little. For 2 action points, any PC may, for that round, emulate a feat that they have the prerequisites for; e.g. a wizard with 13 strength could emulate Power Attack. Basically the, um, point, of action points is to make battles more cinematic, cliffhanger style. Just my thoughts on the subject.
BullyBoy 12-11-04, 06:29 AM	In addition, reading the rules, action points are intended only for the pcs, witch is something I dont much agree with (i'm the "whatever you use i will as well" sort of DM, fair is fair, not that i'm out to kill my players thought), any advice on the matter ? Your aim as DM shouldn't be to make the game "fair", but to make it "fun". I have found this is what action points tend to do! In Eberron, the characters are supposed to be heroes. If you deny them action points, you are making them one of the many hundred other explorers out there.
Ormazd 12-11-04, 11:52 AM	Also using them to stabilize is great if you don't use them for anything else make sure to use that. I have to agree with Brastan here. APs don't have a major influence on particular combats, but knowing that your players can automatically stabilize if they hold on to one AP allows me to throw creatures at them and not worry about "pulling punches" to avoid killing PCs. I am not opposed to killing PCs, in general, but no one wants to lose a favorite character against a wandering monster, so it's nice that they have a back-up that allows me to just go for it with monsters and not have to fudge dice rolls very often. O
philopharynx 12-11-04, 12:24 PM	In my game, we often save action points for the "Oh {feces}!" moments. The save against petrification, the blow that might take down the BBEG when you have somebody in single digit hit points, and things like that. I do allow major named villans to have action points. One advantage of action points for villians is spending them to escape certain death (as long as I can find a way to do it). If the players can't find a way to undo it quickly, he'll getaway for good. For example, they face the BBEG in his lair. He's on the ropes and he bolts for the fireplace. Since the BBEG knows it's a secret door, he can activate it as a move action. The players will need to figure it out first, which should slow them down. But if a player decides to pull out his adamantine axe and manages to chop through it quickly the chase is on... (of course if they do manage to catch and finish him, he'll have a letter on him from a mysterious figure that is even more shadowy and sinister.)
Edymnion 12-11-04, 01:48 PM	Yeah, typically players don't think to use their AP, always wanting to save them for that "Oh :censored:" moment to pull their butts outta the fire. Which usually means they waste AP by leveling up when they still have some available. And the DM can always override when an AP gets used if they start trying to abuse them. It really does need to be that big freeze frame moment that demands a really cool description to make it work. For example, say you're on a swaying bridge, and you need to make a balance check to keep from falling off. You make your check, and you know its low, you can throw in an AP. Think something along the lines of Indiana Jones pulling out his whip and cracking it around to grab a ledge while falling, and he just hangs there swinging in the breeze going "whew...." Thats an AP moment. Think of the anime moment where somebody just suddenly charges into a fight unnexpectedly, with the big brightly colored background full of action motion lines, in order to sucker punch the badguy. That would be an AP used on the init roll. Think of the cinematic moment when Arnold the Barbarian (sorry, Conan the Barbarian) slams their weapon against the evil artifact, freeze frame as the blade hits it, and nothing seems to happen, the slow motion of the blade crashing through the idol. Thats an AP to add damage to the blow to get past the hardness. Think of the movie moment where the hero is in the middle of a pitched battle, raises his gun/blaster, and all of the background noise dies as he slowly takes his aim, pulls the trigger, and the camera follows behind the shot as it hits the target square in the chest. Thats an AP bonus to the To Hit roll. Basically, AP help make the game flashier, more exciting. They really haven't had much impact on balance at all (and really, with the lack of high level magic in the game, you NEED those AP for things like Save or Die spells, because there simply isn't anybody that can cast Raise Dead).
hippi 12-11-04, 03:18 PM	I believe that action points are a good way to avoid embaresing scenes. For example the monk that has +13 on tumble rolls a 1 on a tumble check to impress the local crowd. He doesn't want to be humiliated so he uses an action point.
Haldstaff_Dundragon 12-11-04, 04:27 PM	Eberron adventures also tend to favor intrigue and swashbuckling action over dungeon crawling, so fights should be less common, but more interesting. AP's help balance the fact that most fights will be something of an EL equal to or higher than the party's level. Having AP's also makes the party a little more daring. They are willing to jump that chasm rather than looking for a longer, safer way around. My players would literally crawl through a hallway looking for traps in a regular game (which get's very boring for me to DM), but just charge down the hall full tilt to rescue the damsel, traps be damned. I fully believe their willingness to take the risk is attributed to their belief that even if they roll poorly, action points will save them. And pc's NOT taking 45 mins. of game time crawling through featureless hallways makes the game a lot more fun for me to run.
superdeadsmurf 12-11-04, 06:26 PM	Denying action points to players who want to play an artificer is also a big mistake. Seeing as how most infusions haves casting times of 1 minute, they'll very seldom get used without the action point use to bring the casting time down to a round (this also works nice when you can't wait an hour to cast Identify! :D)
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-11-04, 09:16 PM	IMO APs are fine but with two caveats: 1) Why don't NPCs get them? In D20 Modern NPCs get 1 AP per 2 levels (if they have heroic class levels). This is less than what the PCs get, but the NPC gets less "screen time" so it's alright. (It prevents problems like NPC spellcasters being more powerful than PC spellcasters despite having less gear.) Otherwise it's a player beef that wasn't really needed, when you consider NPCs (the non-spellcasting ones, at least) are always weaker than the PCs past 3rd-level or so due to inequities in magic item possession. 2) Some of the AP feats are not balanced. Same thing with some of the bard feats (especially the one that gives you 4 extra spellsongs at first level. Maybe that got errata'd. Eberron has great flavor, but WotC's approach to curnch always results in a mixed bag.
Edymnion 12-11-04, 09:21 PM	IMO APs are fine but with two caveats: 1) Why don't NPCs get them?When was the last time you saw the badguys pull of something incredible? Its called the Storm Trooper effect for a reason ;)
MMaster 12-12-04, 04:33 AM	thanks for all the input, guess i will just give them a try, see how i get along with them and how my players react to their introduction in the game
philopharynx 12-12-04, 02:53 PM	Denying action points to players who want to play an artificer is also a big mistake. Seeing as how most infusions haves casting times of 1 minute, they'll very seldom get used without the action point use to bring the casting time down to a round (this also works nice when you can't wait an hour to cast Identify! :D) Not a problem for my artificer. He's from house Tharashk and can identify things in one round without spending 100gp for a pearl or any action points. Least Dragonmark of finding. It's very useful when you find some cool treasure in the game and want to use it immediately.
atanhel 12-12-04, 04:14 PM	to make villans seem interesting, but not screwing with the game, conside giving them the feat heroic spirit. they prbably won't use more than 3 actions points because the PC's will probably have killed/have been killed by him. but it might be interresting when the evil wizzard resists the poison inflicted on him, becuase he made his save. Trust me, those moments even the most cofident player will fall silent, and you can almost hear the players think: OMG we're gonna die! Those momants around the playing table are omong the best a DM can get :D
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-12-04, 04:56 PM	When was the last time you saw the badguys pull of something incredible? Its called the Storm Trooper effect for a reason ;) Boo-urns! Cool villains are, well, cooler. Usually the henchmen and main villain are heroes and can do cool stuff. If they can't, then they're just obstacles waiting to be steamrolled.
ThanisKartaleon 12-12-04, 05:04 PM	indeed, Heroic Spirit + Action Boost + Levels in Extreme Explorer or Dragonmark Heir (or Heir of Syberis to be really nasty) = more AP than the villain truly needs, especially if they are a level 5 EE.
JabBond 12-13-04, 12:05 AM	Not a problem for my artificer. He's from house Tharashk and can identify things in one round without spending 100gp for a pearl or any action points. Least Dragonmark of finding. It's very useful when you find some cool treasure in the game and want to use it immediately. Ummm. you might want to double-check on that one, I believe it functions like the spell and will still take him an hour. Not for sure, the DMG wasn't really explicit on that one, other than they can't be dispelled but don't work in anti-magic areas... but you're right about it being useful. Funny, all of our magic items get ID'ed by our Tharashk fighter.
philopharynx 12-13-04, 03:39 PM	Ummm. you might want to double-check on that one, I believe it functions like the spell and will still take him an hour. Not for sure, the DMG wasn't really explicit on that one, other than they can't be dispelled but don't work in anti-magic areas... but you're right about it being useful. Funny, all of our magic items get ID'ed by our Tharashk fighter. Nope. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise in the source that gives you the ability. This has been brought up before in various other threads. Still it's only 1/day, which limits it's usefulness.
kisama 12-13-04, 04:11 PM	I had my first go at DM'ing last week and I had my players burning through the actions points whenever they could. My background being shadowrun, I thought of action points as a limited form of Karma for the players. One really good encounter we had was when got into a fight with some gumby rogues. The party shifter runs for a room and closes the door behind himself just as two of the baddies managed to get to the door. He then shifts and on his next action says he's going to try to break the door off the hinges and bullrush the two bad guys on the other side. I tell him if he uses an action point and succeeds we can try to work in some kind of cool effect. He rolls an 18 on his D20 and on the action point roll, gets a 6. His strength when shifted is 19, so at this point I tell him he takes the door clear off it's hinges. Both bad guys at this point have to make reflex saves to get out the path of the oncoming door. One makes the save, the other does not. What happense next is the shifter pushes the door and the bad guy trapped behind it 5 feet back and into the banister behind them. The banister breaks and the bad guy, door and the shifter go over the side and on to the stairs below and then proceed to slide down the stairs, taking out another bad guy on the way down. The whole ride down, the bad guys are caught between the floor and the door with the shifter is riding on top riding hanging on for dear life. The funniest part is when the shifter, door and bad guys stop at the bottom, I ask the player what do you do now? He replies "you ever see that movie where this bear jumps John Candy and get him pinned under a door and proceeds to jump up and down on the door? That's what I do!" After thrashing up and down on the door for a few rounds I tell him the guys under the door are in no condition to fight. This was totaly cheesy but it had us laughing out asses off. That's what the game is all about. :)
superdeadsmurf 12-13-04, 04:25 PM	Nope. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise in the source that gives you the ability. This has been brought up before in various other threads. Still it's only 1/day, which limits it's usefulness. I believe that is incorrect, a spell-like ability that copies a named spell effect takes the same casting time by default.
atanhel 12-13-04, 04:51 PM	This was totaly cheesy but it had us laughing out asses off. That's what the game is all about. :) dude: way cool :cool: your so right, these moments make sitting in your room trying to fix your game befor next friday all worth it! :D
MBuckalew 12-13-04, 05:26 PM	My concern with the use of the points is not with balance, but pacing. I'm concerned about it slowing the game down. I've got 8 regular players and combat already takes quite a bit of time to play through. The players try to help by rolling attack, damage, and miss chance dice at the same time, and roll iterative attacks together as well. Depending on the atmosphere at the time, I may give check and save DCs before asking for rolls, so that I can a group response instead of person-by-person. It looks like we would have to stop taking those shortcuts to make use of Action Points. Also, I can picture my players taking extra time to do rough calcs for each roll :eek: before deciding to use action points. Some are quicker at math/keeping track of mods than others and I don't want to favor them by forcing some sort of time limit. What are people's experiences with regards to Action Points and pacing?
Kanne 12-13-04, 05:57 PM	I dont find that acton Points slow down combat much, after a few rounds my players seem to catch on to what the baddies AC is and how much HP they got, so when they know that a 15 isnt gonna cut it they toss a point on it. and its not my fault if they decide to waste them all on goblins. :P
Gurv 12-13-04, 06:09 PM	I've noticed that players tend to spend them quickly, with the wiser ones keeping one on hand for life-or-death rolls. For the most part, they've allowed them a second chance a few times, but never done anything to alter the course of the campaign. I have one player planning on taking as many AP feats as he can, so I'll let you know if he manages to do anything impressive that way. But even if he does, it'll be balanced by the feats he could have otherwise taken.
slythero 12-13-04, 10:28 PM	AP's add a lot to the game. More often than not they are used on saves that might succeed or attacks that might hit. They are significantly less heroic than I initially thought, but they do add a lot of spice to the game. It's nice to know my warforged can pass a Reflex save every now and then. The most significant use of AP's I've seen is to stabilize a dying character. If you are one of those sadistic DM's that enjoys watching your players bleed to death over the course of 7 or so rounds, then AP's aren't for you. Of course, that's not to say AP's are worthless. They are by no means gamebreaking, but they can help your PC's pass a crucial save or land a blow against a particularly tough opponent. Oh, and if you want NPC's with action points, just give them Heroic Spirit:P Bottom line: keep them in.
Sucros 12-13-04, 10:56 PM	I think it gives DMs a chance to throw more horrid encounters at the PCs. Makes it more intense when you're relying on that very rare resource.
Ramses III 12-14-04, 04:58 PM	I like the idea of AP -- especially because I really want to play a fighter, and it would be nice to not have to rely on failing all of my will saves!
philopharynx 12-15-04, 01:10 AM	I believe that is incorrect, a spell-like ability that copies a named spell effect takes the same casting time by default. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Sometimes using a spell-like ability can be a free action or a full-round action, or it can have an even longer activation time. However, it's a standard action unless the ability description specifically says otherwise. A creature using a spell-like ability can use all the tricks that a spellcaster can use to avoid that nasty attack of opportunity. The creature can take a 5-foot step before using the ability (so as to get out of a threatened area). The creature also can make a Concentration check to use the ability defensively. Enough with the tangent. As for pacing it doesn't affect the game in my experience. The DM simply waits for a beat after the player announces the roll. If the player doesn't say they want to use the action point, they lose the chance. Most of the time, the player knows that they're close enough for the action point to possibly make a difference.