Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Save-vs-DM 12-06-05, 07:20 AM	Okay, so my buddy and I (we take turns DMing on a rotation basis) were talking about action points. Specifically I was mentioning that in the RPGA you gain action points per session instead of per level (due to the episodic style of play). Note: This is not a discussion about the RPGA and how much it rocks/sucks. This is about action points. We both thought that it might just give our players that little edge that we need. As it stands now most of us rarely use our action points for much of anything as we're always waiting to save them for "dire situations." Half of us have a good 2-3 action points left before we level up simply because we treat them like gold. What I'd like to do is use the RPGA style of action points. Your max action points drop by 2, but you get them back at the end of each adventure. So you have less to spend at any one time, but you do get them back. This might also help make feats like Action Surge just a little more popular, as right now none of my players will touch the feat with a ten foot pole (and neither will I - a feat you can only use 2-3 times a LEVEL?). I know the feat is darn good but this would limit the use of it even further at any one session. I just wanted to get a reaction from other people as to what they think about this idea. I have a good idea of what my players can do and handle and I don't think this is going to make them overpowered relative to the game world I'm running - but it just might mean that they're not limping out of fighters with next to no hit points. So, what do you think? Cheers, Save vs DM
Sieylianna 12-06-05, 07:33 AM	What I'd like to do is use the RPGA style of action points. Your max action points drop by 2, but you get them back at the end of each adventure. So you have less to spend at any one time, but you do get them back. I think this is too generous, but it might work in some home games. The average RPGA module packs far more encounters into a four hour session than you're going to have in a typical home game. The difficulty of the combats is also high, so you frequently need to use all your action points to survive. If your campaign isn't extremely difficult or fast-paced, yo're going to make things too easy. My compromise suggestion would be to reduce the action points by 3 from the book value per level, but give the PCs 1 action point per session which returns every session. Ed
Grymar 12-06-05, 08:18 AM	My issue would be more about the non-combat uses. Adding d6 or d8 to a diplomacy roll could be VERY dangerous. It isn't something that the average player would do since they want to save the APs for critical moments in combat, but if they suddenly have 6, 8, or 10 points to blow in one evening, they will start to use them to pickpocket the king, bargain the price of their beer down, or who knows what. It can work if you are ready for it, but it seems a bit much for my game.
Save-vs-DM 12-06-05, 10:28 AM	My issue would be more about the non-combat uses. Adding d6 or d8 to a diplomacy roll could be VERY dangerous. It isn't something that the average player would do since they want to save the APs for critical moments in combat, but if they suddenly have 6, 8, or 10 points to blow in one evening, they will start to use them to pickpocket the king, bargain the price of their beer down, or who knows what. It can work if you are ready for it, but it seems a bit much for my game. The sad thing is that my players ALREADY do this anyway. Plus - let's be honest - you use action points on low rolls to barely succeed, not to be super duper exceptional. Cheers, Save vs DM
Euangelion 12-06-05, 12:11 PM	I think a "temporary" action point for each session would work well, with Action Surge adding temporary points rather than standard ones. Or one could perhaps give the player the choice of the feat adding the indicated number of standard points, or just one extra temporary point. If the character also has an ability that also adds temporary action points, then those are used first, followed by the temporary session action points, followed by standard action points.
DoveArrow 12-06-05, 04:11 PM	Personally, I wouldn't want to make action points a session-by-session thing for my home games. I understand the purpose of it in the RPGA, but I really feel like my players are cool enough with action points as they are written that they don't need anything more. On the other hand, do I see a problem with you wanting to use the RPGA rules for your own game? Not in the least. Power up those heroes, baby! :)
Edymnion 12-06-05, 04:38 PM	Personally, my answer would be to stop hoarding your AP. My characters have been known to use AP on UMD in a non-combat situation just because my artificer was sick and tired of fizzling the check. I've used it on Intimidate, craft checks, and any number of non-combat non-save moments. Just let go of the "gotta save them for when it counts" mentality and just use them whenever you need that higher roll.
Gurv 12-06-05, 04:55 PM	Personally, my answer would be to stop hoarding your AP. My characters have been known to use AP on UMD in a non-combat situation just because my artificer was sick and tired of fizzling the check. I've used it on Intimidate, craft checks, and any number of non-combat non-save moments. Just let go of the "gotta save them for when it counts" mentality and just use them whenever you need that higher roll. I've given my players such advice, and had mixed results. I think the problem is that AP are more useful to some characters. I have one player who might level without spending a single point (our sessions are about 6 hours long, and they generally level in about 3 sessions). The player simply doesn't have anything to spend them on, her character being a primary spellcaster rather than an "attack" or "skill" type character. She would have to do as Edy says and use them "whenever". Another player has been known to roll up AP when making a ranged touch attack on a giant while he was invisible. On a natural "1" he could not have missed (we use the 1 equals -10 rule), and yet he uses them. Yet another player has feats such as Action Surge, and makes careful use of his AP. He rarely has more than one or two when he levels. Personally, I think it is a matter of giving AP the proper value. The first player doesn't value them because they rarely give her a real advantage. The second player simply can't tell the difference between vital and non-vital situations. The last player has a good grasp on it, but has to worry about his feat selection "running out of power". My suggestion to DM who want to increase their use? Give them more options on how to spend their AP. Check out Unearthed Arcana and select a few more uses.
Edymnion 12-06-05, 05:33 PM	Ah, but you see, there is a LOT of stuff you can use AP on other than just the specifically listed effects. Essentially, you use them whenever you want to do something cool that isn't specifically spelled out as being possible under the normal rules. I think it was the ECS that had the example of spending an AP to turn over a table on someone in order to slow them down (aka knock them down in the init list). Encourge your players to use AP more by letting them do cool, cinematic tricks with them. Elevate them past simple roll boosters into "what cool thing could I do this turn?" :)
Chiyo 12-08-05, 04:19 PM	Like you mention the issue with Action Surge could become tricky. Say at level 10, normally you get 10 action points per level. That'd be 8 per session and thus 4 extra standard actions per session via action surge. The situation would only get better/worse at higher levels. Depending on pace of campaign leveling that could mean like 12 extra standard actions per level (3 sessions per level for our game usually). You'd also have to rule on Heroic Spirit as well. Could make it 1 extra per session but that's not totally fair. Could keep it 3 per level and having player declare when they used them specifically in a session (so you keep track of them over several sessions). But if +3 per session, in combo with action surge, it'd start really paying off depending on pace. The problem we run into in the mid-level game is that the action points also don't mean as much. When I botch a Reflex save with +8 mod, I'm generally like 8-10 from the DC. But consequenses of failing those saves become so important that everyone keeps APs for those save or death situations. Not sure what to do about that mentality though. Not dying vs dying is a bit more tangible and possibly heroic (the heroes always make it despite the odds kinda deal) than most other actions I can think of where action point come into play. Only answer I've been toying with is dividing the AP pool in two. Half for saves, half for everything else. That way at least players would use half of their APs since they can't use them for saves. That could be an idea to curb action surge excesses too. In the level 10 example above, that'd mean per session 2 extra action surges (4 AP, and 4 saves).
Ravenseye 12-08-05, 05:39 PM	If you have 2-3 hour sessions, I think it'd be excessive and/or overpower the characters. If you have longer ones, 5+ hours it might be ok, though still, you're going to see them in use far too often for my taste. I think the trick is getting people to just remember that there ARE action points. People aren't going to waste an action point if they roll a 6, but if they're in a combat and roll a 19 and they know that they can hit the monster with a 21 then they're far more likely to use that action point. Anyway, I find it good to at the start of every session, ask peopel their stats, hit points, ac, etc...and also action points. To remind them that they're there. I'm toying with the idea of rewarding them extra experience points for every successfull use of an action point. I think that would get my players to burn them some more, maybe always saving 1 for a stabilization but that's about it.
DoveArrow 12-08-05, 05:54 PM	Edymnion's suggestion is something of a house rule, but I think it's a great idea. In fact, it was something I had suggested in my own game very early on to try and get players to use action points. I used Legolas from the Return of the King as an example: Legolas turns and sees the oliphaunt charging towards him. He uses an action point to grasp the creature's leg. He uses a second action point to slice through the strap holding the riding harness on the creature's back and uses it to climb up its side. He then proceeds to beat the snot out of the remaining archers, and fires a couple of shots into the creature's skull before burning a third action point to slide down the creature's trunk and land safely on the ground. Gimli then uses a non action to say "That still only counts as one!"
Straylight 12-09-05, 01:04 AM	Edy's suggestion may be something of a house rule, but it's one I think a lot of DMs use anyway. Action points are a very subjective thing. To some players and characters (Artificers!) they are invaluable, but to others (Clerics, Wizzies) they are only of limited usefulness. What I've done is something similar to Edy's rule: Anything a player can come up with that doesn't have rules written expressly for it, as well as anything that goes above and beyond what the characters are normally capable of doing, can be done by spending an Action Point. After all, that's what APs are, right? Heroic, above-and-beyond moments where the characters attempt the impossible and pull it off? Two of my players latched onto the idea immediately, and started asking me if they could blow action points on completely rediculous stunts or things otherwise too wild for characters of their level to get away with. My answer was usually yes. I encourage theatrics and over-the-top stunts in my games. I like the high-action, hollywood flair and I think it makes for a more entertaining game, so I usually reward that sort of thing with flashy descriptions and spectacular results. I'll still call for the appropriate skill checks ("Okay, so you want to jump off the balcony, grab the chandelier, swing across the room and kick Karita in the face? Right, roll me a Tumble check."), but I'll usually let the action go through unless the roll is spectacularly bad, and even then I'll usually give them a fitting result ("Okay, you manage to grab the chandelier, but you lose your grip halfway across the room and end up sailing face-first toward Karita. You smash into her and both of you go down in a heap of limbs.") I've met GMs who punish that sort of thing, and their games very quickly degenerate into "I attack the bugbear." *rolls* "You miss." "I take a five foot step back and then move away." And, come on, this is Eberron. We're more fun than that.
AK_Overlord 12-09-05, 02:57 PM	I think that whether or not it’s a good idea depends solely on your group. I would talk it over with your players, get their input, and then give it a trial run. It not like you can do a little on-the-fly scaling for one or two adventures if worse comes to worst.