Action Points?!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Action Points?!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saydivosh
10-12-04, 06:32 PM I was wondering about action points. I do like the system, in fact I think it's great. But, I was looking through the Unearthed Arcana and the section on action points in there discusses various different options for the use of action points. Among them, enhancing feats you have, taking on feats you don't have and others. I really doubt I'd allow the option for taking on feats you didn't already have. But as for enhancing current feats, that definitely had perks. But the real conundrum came when I read the Unearthed Arcana's section on using action points for additional uses of class features (smite evil, wild shape, bardic music, etc.) and it says to use just 1 action point. But in the ECS it calls for the use of 2 action points. Naturally, I'd go with the book, but I was wondering what anyone else thought. Has anyone else tried using it that way, and if you have, is it overpowering???
Doctor X
10-12-04, 07:19 PM The action points in Eberron aren't intended to be as powerful by default... but if you can use the stuff from Unearthed Arcana if you wish. You can even up the action point costs to balance it out, unless of course you WANT your party to kick even more arse than they normally would. It's your call.

I'm planning on allowing some of the feat improvements, but the more powerful ones will require two points, and might even require a feat to use.

I'm thinking of adding something along the lines of and "Action Metamagic" feat. So far, I'm thinking this feat will allow you to apply a metamagic feat to a spell as you cast it for one action point per added spell level. So, if you have still spell and this feat, you could cast a spell without a somatic component for 1 action point.
Edymnion
10-12-04, 07:21 PM The Action Points from Unearthed Arcana and the Action Points in Eberron are NOT the same thing, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Unearthed Arcana was released well before Eberron was.
The names are the same, but that is the only thing they have in common.

Do not use the Action Point material from UA in Eberron games without extensive conversion and forethought.

As in, you could use some of those in Eberron, but they were not designed for it, they didn't have Eberron in mind when they wrote it, and if something works well in Eberron, it was dumb luck and shear chance, nothing more.
Somebloke
10-12-04, 11:17 PM Just remember...if the players have access- like mine do- to most 3.5 stuff, then the ability to mimic a feat for a level could get you into all sorts of unexpected and dangerous situations. THis is coming from someone who knows (shudder)
Andrus_Shade
10-13-04, 12:13 AM The Action Points from Unearthed Arcana and the Action Points in Eberron are NOT the same thing, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

The number of AP and what they can be used for look pretty close to me.
Kaz the DM
10-13-04, 09:05 AM I have a question concerning AP, my Players were to encounter an NPC that was too powerful for them, or so I thought. With great rolls on top of AP they ended up killing the NPC, now with that creating an NPC that is tougher than that would most likely kill the group of 5. Should we as DMs limit AP for certain battles or just trust the systme and let them destroy a tough NPC every now and then.
billseurer
10-13-04, 09:13 AM I have a question concerning AP, my Players were to encounter an NPC that was too powerful for them, or so I thought. With great rolls on top of AP they ended up killing the NPC, now with that creating an NPC that is tougher than that would most likely kill the group of 5. Should we as DMs limit AP for certain battles or just trust the systme and let them destroy a tough NPC every now and then.

That happens without AP too. In a non-Eberron campaign we finally faced the big bad guy, a fighter of higher level than us with a baaaad a** reputation. He never got in a swing due to good rolls on our part (we all went before him, all hit, once guy got a critical, and everyone rolled almost max damage) and bad rolls on his part (he failed two saves).

You just learn to deal with it.

The nice thing about APs is that it can prevent the OPPOSITE from happening; I think there will be fewer TPKs in Eberron campaigns. I've seen all too often where one bad die roll cascades into disaster for the PCs.
debatedeus
10-13-04, 09:22 AM I have a question concerning AP, my Players were to encounter an NPC that was too powerful for them, or so I thought. With great rolls on top of AP they ended up killing the NPC, now with that creating an NPC that is tougher than that would most likely kill the group of 5. Should we as DMs limit AP for certain battles or just trust the systme and let them destroy a tough NPC every now and then.

When I ran Queen with the Burning Eyes, Demise and her rogue friend went to try and escape. The Warforged Artificer was the only person with a ranged weapon handy, and he shot at the running rogue, used an Action Point, disabled him, and the party ended up killing him. While I WANTED him to escape the party WANTED him dead, and a hard lesson for DMs that I'm sure you know is that sometimes you should give the party what THEY want even though it is not what you want--to never be entirely attached to someone your party just beats or outsmarts, even if you didn't mean for them to beat or outsmart them.

So, short answer, let the party use action points whenever they see fit. Even if that means losing a strong NPC every once in a while, just replace them. No biggie.
Kaz the DM
10-13-04, 09:27 AM Thanks for the advice guys, I am still new to D&D and still very new to DMing. But I love it and I won't quit, heck I even got my wife playing :D
Ch@pel
10-13-04, 01:23 PM Thats been happening to me as well; some smart-alec PCs drop my NPC like sack of potatoes. I'd never spent a lot of time planning out tactics for my bad guys, so I'm starting to spend more time on that. Also, don't feel bad about making the NPCs flat out tougher; higher level, better weapons, magic items. After you party gets a good feel for their own abilities and is used to fighting for their lives, just TRY to kill them. Don't be unfair, but actually try to kill them, you'll see its not the NPC's or DM's fault, the players just get that good.
Solarious
10-13-04, 01:38 PM As players get better, then the DM needs to scale up the encounters as well. Be creative in your sadistic endevours! :devil: You the boards to help you out whenever, and there is the entire Monster Manual (and Monster Manuals II and II ;)) with which to make your PCs dread.

Always try to mesh immunities. For instance, Iron Golems with a promaniac wizard. Undead with poison mists. Incorpral is always a great way to make villians hard to drop: it is difficult to persue people through the floor :P Contengencies for wizards, bad environments in which to fight, it is up to the DM to challenge the players. Be evil! Be cruel! And have fun giving the villians Action Points to make them just as tough :schemes:
Sebby
10-19-04, 03:15 AM The use of APs demands some adjustments from the DM. APs make PCs more powerful, more likely to pull off the unexpected, and more resistant to dying (a good thing if you ask them!).

You need to do a few things, as DM:

1) Every time they have to roll a d20, do not give them the DC (or AC) before the roll. The rule for APs says that a player must chose to spend an AP before knowing the result (success or failure), meaning that eager players will often waste some APs on rolls that have no chance of success as well as rolls that would have succeded anyway. The number of APs given at each level takes that into account. If you do not enforce this, you are giving your players a free lunch, and APs will seem more powerful to you that they really are. Make them roll, give them a chance to announce if they will use an AP, and only then tell them if it worked or not.

(Also, as stated in the book (UA or ECS, I don't remember), do not let them roll damage at the same time they roll the attack: they'll seldom waste an AP when the damage die comes up a 1, and they'll often go for it when the damage is maxed.)

2) Most players will save their last AP to stabilize or for saving throws. This is what makes them very hard to kill. Don't pull any punches: they can take it, and much worse than they could without APs.

3) Increasing the difficulty of encounters by using more monsters or tougher, advanced ones should not be the prefered way of compensating for APs. It only gives the characters more XPs for doing the same thing they would do without APs, making them level-up faster with less encounters, giving them more APs... it's a vicious circle. Instead, play the bad guys smarter, when possible (don't do "smart" gelatinous cubes).

4) About the AP rules in UA: try it with just the Eberron rules at first. You will find APs quite powerful as it is. If not, then you can add some of the UA rules.

5) And finally, do not "metagame" (like constantly having enemies who don't know the characters play on their weaknesses) against your players to offset their AP advantage. They will quickly feel cheated by this. Use plausible, in-game challenges that can always be explained, even if such an explanation is not readily appearent.
SahinTC
10-19-04, 03:20 AM Keith stated in the Ask Keith Baker thread that action points were actually derived from when Eberron was in early development, and subsequently put into Unearthed Arcana.

Meaning Eberron was cranking around way back when UA was released... wrap your mind around that. :eek:
Special_K
10-19-04, 06:00 AM I DMed a party of five through Forgotten Forge and Shadows of the Last War, with slight adjustments for increased party size. With APs, they comfortably made it through Forgotten Forge, and without APs, they wouldn't have made it past the final encounter in Shadows of the Last War (though, they did decide to keep both copies of the schema and fight the full force of Garrow plus minions after killing everything in Whitehearth minus the living flaming sphere).

I make it a habit of telling the PCs as little as possible in terms of behind the curtain numbers anyway, so its not a problem for me, though I know its quicker just to say, "Make a DC 15 Ref save, who saves?" than to poll everyone for their results. Still, it's a good habit to get into especially when using APs.

That being said, I think Action Points are great. I especially love Extreme Explorer (well, maybe not the name, but the class itself) and feats that focus on Action Points.

APs can often give characters completely new ways to tackle situations, which can hopefully breathe new life into the action on the table.

One of the biggest complaints I get from people who are into RPGs such as Exalted, Vampire, Shadowrun, and other table tops, is that Dungeons and Dragons has a really boring combat system. I'm sure some of the blame falls on poor DMing, but it can also be partly the environment's fault as well.

I want combat in my game to be tense, to be nail-biting, to be white-knuckled snap decisions, just like it would be if you were trading blows with blade-weilding and bloodthirsty vampire in real life.

Action Points are a great help for that, because they allow you to be a bit more rough with PCs since it requires them to make more permanent choices in combat (spend an action point now, when it might let me finish this guy off, or wait and spend it later when I might need it to stabalize while dying...).

Action Points also allow you to put your character in more hopeless situations than they could normally tackle.

Stuck in a watertight room slowly being flooded and the rogue has to pick five seperate locks to get out? That's a job for Action Points.

Find yourself in desperate need of another turning attempt for the day as you and your party are surrounded by a huge number of undead? Spend two Action Points and those jack skellingtons ain't so tough anymore...

Action Points are the cruel DM's best friend.

They allow you to make your adventures even crueler.
Sebby
10-19-04, 03:31 PM Yes, that is how I see the purpose of APs.

It's to allow DMs to put the characters in more perilous and heroic scenes, not to allow the characters to ace through encounters they could have dealt with anyway without APs, which would just be boring.
Ch@pel
10-19-04, 06:48 PM The way I run action points is that the players have to decide immediately after the dice is rolled if they want to add an action point. They must declare it before they start adding anything to it or guessing the probability of success. The emphasis is on "immediately". If they have done some math in their head and they determine that any result under a certain number will get an AP, then thats fine; they still don't know what they need for success and good for them for thinking in advance. It shows that they have their head in the game, so that even helps explain the mechanic in game terms.

This way, their decision is based, more or less, off a gut reaction to the actual roll of the dice. If they would have succeeded by a slim margin anyway and they opt to use the AP, I'll give it back to them. I feel this is a fair trade for requiring them to "call" the roll.
Amaril
10-19-04, 07:14 PM If I dm'd with AP, I would rule that it be rolled simultaneously, or at least make the players decide before rolling.
Hellcow
10-19-04, 07:44 PM Unearthed Arcana was released well before Eberron was.
The names are the same, but that is the only thing they have in common.
SahinTC has the right of this. If you check the early Eberron previews in Dragon, you'll see a few of the more powerful uses for action points -- including class features for only 1 AP -- mentioned as a feature of Eberron. UA is a compilation book, and as AP were being developed for Eberron, a number of their uses were pulled into UA.

Do not use the Action Point material from UA in Eberron games without extensive conversion and forethought.
However, Endymnion has the right of this. The more powerful options were pulled from Eberron because they can drastically alter the balance of the game, and we didn't want to suggest them as standard rules. The UA material is an optional varient. If you want to add it in, well, Eberron is already designed to incorporate action points. But it will give the PCs even more power -- and you may want to experiment with the base action points first to make sure that's something you want to do.

The fact that many of the AP uses in Eberron - such as activating a class feature - cost 2 AP is intentional, not errata.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saydivosh 10-12-04, 06:32 PM	I was wondering about action points. I do like the system, in fact I think it's great. But, I was looking through the Unearthed Arcana and the section on action points in there discusses various different options for the use of action points. Among them, enhancing feats you have, taking on feats you don't have and others. I really doubt I'd allow the option for taking on feats you didn't already have. But as for enhancing current feats, that definitely had perks. But the real conundrum came when I read the Unearthed Arcana's section on using action points for additional uses of class features (smite evil, wild shape, bardic music, etc.) and it says to use just 1 action point. But in the ECS it calls for the use of 2 action points. Naturally, I'd go with the book, but I was wondering what anyone else thought. Has anyone else tried using it that way, and if you have, is it overpowering???
Doctor X 10-12-04, 07:19 PM	The action points in Eberron aren't intended to be as powerful by default... but if you can use the stuff from Unearthed Arcana if you wish. You can even up the action point costs to balance it out, unless of course you WANT your party to kick even more arse than they normally would. It's your call. I'm planning on allowing some of the feat improvements, but the more powerful ones will require two points, and might even require a feat to use. I'm thinking of adding something along the lines of and "Action Metamagic" feat. So far, I'm thinking this feat will allow you to apply a metamagic feat to a spell as you cast it for one action point per added spell level. So, if you have still spell and this feat, you could cast a spell without a somatic component for 1 action point.
Edymnion 10-12-04, 07:21 PM	The Action Points from Unearthed Arcana and the Action Points in Eberron are NOT the same thing, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Unearthed Arcana was released well before Eberron was. The names are the same, but that is the only thing they have in common. Do not use the Action Point material from UA in Eberron games without extensive conversion and forethought. As in, you could use some of those in Eberron, but they were not designed for it, they didn't have Eberron in mind when they wrote it, and if something works well in Eberron, it was dumb luck and shear chance, nothing more.
Somebloke 10-12-04, 11:17 PM	Just remember...if the players have access- like mine do- to most 3.5 stuff, then the ability to mimic a feat for a level could get you into all sorts of unexpected and dangerous situations. THis is coming from someone who knows (shudder)
Andrus_Shade 10-13-04, 12:13 AM	The Action Points from Unearthed Arcana and the Action Points in Eberron are NOT the same thing, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. The number of AP and what they can be used for look pretty close to me.
Kaz the DM 10-13-04, 09:05 AM	I have a question concerning AP, my Players were to encounter an NPC that was too powerful for them, or so I thought. With great rolls on top of AP they ended up killing the NPC, now with that creating an NPC that is tougher than that would most likely kill the group of 5. Should we as DMs limit AP for certain battles or just trust the systme and let them destroy a tough NPC every now and then.
billseurer 10-13-04, 09:13 AM	I have a question concerning AP, my Players were to encounter an NPC that was too powerful for them, or so I thought. With great rolls on top of AP they ended up killing the NPC, now with that creating an NPC that is tougher than that would most likely kill the group of 5. Should we as DMs limit AP for certain battles or just trust the systme and let them destroy a tough NPC every now and then. That happens without AP too. In a non-Eberron campaign we finally faced the big bad guy, a fighter of higher level than us with a baaaad a** reputation. He never got in a swing due to good rolls on our part (we all went before him, all hit, once guy got a critical, and everyone rolled almost max damage) and bad rolls on his part (he failed two saves). You just learn to deal with it. The nice thing about APs is that it can prevent the OPPOSITE from happening; I think there will be fewer TPKs in Eberron campaigns. I've seen all too often where one bad die roll cascades into disaster for the PCs.
debatedeus 10-13-04, 09:22 AM	I have a question concerning AP, my Players were to encounter an NPC that was too powerful for them, or so I thought. With great rolls on top of AP they ended up killing the NPC, now with that creating an NPC that is tougher than that would most likely kill the group of 5. Should we as DMs limit AP for certain battles or just trust the systme and let them destroy a tough NPC every now and then. When I ran Queen with the Burning Eyes, Demise and her rogue friend went to try and escape. The Warforged Artificer was the only person with a ranged weapon handy, and he shot at the running rogue, used an Action Point, disabled him, and the party ended up killing him. While I WANTED him to escape the party WANTED him dead, and a hard lesson for DMs that I'm sure you know is that sometimes you should give the party what THEY want even though it is not what you want--to never be entirely attached to someone your party just beats or outsmarts, even if you didn't mean for them to beat or outsmart them. So, short answer, let the party use action points whenever they see fit. Even if that means losing a strong NPC every once in a while, just replace them. No biggie.
Kaz the DM 10-13-04, 09:27 AM	Thanks for the advice guys, I am still new to D&D and still very new to DMing. But I love it and I won't quit, heck I even got my wife playing :D
Ch@pel 10-13-04, 01:23 PM	Thats been happening to me as well; some smart-alec PCs drop my NPC like sack of potatoes. I'd never spent a lot of time planning out tactics for my bad guys, so I'm starting to spend more time on that. Also, don't feel bad about making the NPCs flat out tougher; higher level, better weapons, magic items. After you party gets a good feel for their own abilities and is used to fighting for their lives, just TRY to kill them. Don't be unfair, but actually try to kill them, you'll see its not the NPC's or DM's fault, the players just get that good.
Solarious 10-13-04, 01:38 PM	As players get better, then the DM needs to scale up the encounters as well. Be creative in your sadistic endevours! :devil: You the boards to help you out whenever, and there is the entire Monster Manual (and Monster Manuals II and II ;)) with which to make your PCs dread. Always try to mesh immunities. For instance, Iron Golems with a promaniac wizard. Undead with poison mists. Incorpral is always a great way to make villians hard to drop: it is difficult to persue people through the floor :P Contengencies for wizards, bad environments in which to fight, it is up to the DM to challenge the players. Be evil! Be cruel! And have fun giving the villians Action Points to make them just as tough :schemes:
Sebby 10-19-04, 03:15 AM	The use of APs demands some adjustments from the DM. APs make PCs more powerful, more likely to pull off the unexpected, and more resistant to dying (a good thing if you ask them!). You need to do a few things, as DM: 1) Every time they have to roll a d20, do not give them the DC (or AC) before the roll. The rule for APs says that a player must chose to spend an AP before knowing the result (success or failure), meaning that eager players will often waste some APs on rolls that have no chance of success as well as rolls that would have succeded anyway. The number of APs given at each level takes that into account. If you do not enforce this, you are giving your players a free lunch, and APs will seem more powerful to you that they really are. Make them roll, give them a chance to announce if they will use an AP, and only then tell them if it worked or not. (Also, as stated in the book (UA or ECS, I don't remember), do not let them roll damage at the same time they roll the attack: they'll seldom waste an AP when the damage die comes up a 1, and they'll often go for it when the damage is maxed.) 2) Most players will save their last AP to stabilize or for saving throws. This is what makes them very hard to kill. Don't pull any punches: they can take it, and much worse than they could without APs. 3) Increasing the difficulty of encounters by using more monsters or tougher, advanced ones should not be the prefered way of compensating for APs. It only gives the characters more XPs for doing the same thing they would do without APs, making them level-up faster with less encounters, giving them more APs... it's a vicious circle. Instead, play the bad guys smarter, when possible (don't do "smart" gelatinous cubes). 4) About the AP rules in UA: try it with just the Eberron rules at first. You will find APs quite powerful as it is. If not, then you can add some of the UA rules. 5) And finally, do not "metagame" (like constantly having enemies who don't know the characters play on their weaknesses) against your players to offset their AP advantage. They will quickly feel cheated by this. Use plausible, in-game challenges that can always be explained, even if such an explanation is not readily appearent.
SahinTC 10-19-04, 03:20 AM	Keith stated in the Ask Keith Baker thread that action points were actually derived from when Eberron was in early development, and subsequently put into Unearthed Arcana. Meaning Eberron was cranking around way back when UA was released... wrap your mind around that. :eek:
Special_K 10-19-04, 06:00 AM	I DMed a party of five through Forgotten Forge and Shadows of the Last War, with slight adjustments for increased party size. With APs, they comfortably made it through Forgotten Forge, and without APs, they wouldn't have made it past the final encounter in Shadows of the Last War (though, they did decide to keep both copies of the schema and fight the full force of Garrow plus minions after killing everything in Whitehearth minus the living flaming sphere). I make it a habit of telling the PCs as little as possible in terms of behind the curtain numbers anyway, so its not a problem for me, though I know its quicker just to say, "Make a DC 15 Ref save, who saves?" than to poll everyone for their results. Still, it's a good habit to get into especially when using APs. That being said, I think Action Points are great. I especially love Extreme Explorer (well, maybe not the name, but the class itself) and feats that focus on Action Points. APs can often give characters completely new ways to tackle situations, which can hopefully breathe new life into the action on the table. One of the biggest complaints I get from people who are into RPGs such as Exalted, Vampire, Shadowrun, and other table tops, is that Dungeons and Dragons has a really boring combat system. I'm sure some of the blame falls on poor DMing, but it can also be partly the environment's fault as well. I want combat in my game to be tense, to be nail-biting, to be white-knuckled snap decisions, just like it would be if you were trading blows with blade-weilding and bloodthirsty vampire in real life. Action Points are a great help for that, because they allow you to be a bit more rough with PCs since it requires them to make more permanent choices in combat (spend an action point now, when it might let me finish this guy off, or wait and spend it later when I might need it to stabalize while dying...). Action Points also allow you to put your character in more hopeless situations than they could normally tackle. Stuck in a watertight room slowly being flooded and the rogue has to pick five seperate locks to get out? That's a job for Action Points. Find yourself in desperate need of another turning attempt for the day as you and your party are surrounded by a huge number of undead? Spend two Action Points and those jack skellingtons ain't so tough anymore... Action Points are the cruel DM's best friend. They allow you to make your adventures even crueler.
Sebby 10-19-04, 03:31 PM	Yes, that is how I see the purpose of APs. It's to allow DMs to put the characters in more perilous and heroic scenes, not to allow the characters to ace through encounters they could have dealt with anyway without APs, which would just be boring.
Ch@pel 10-19-04, 06:48 PM	The way I run action points is that the players have to decide immediately after the dice is rolled if they want to add an action point. They must declare it before they start adding anything to it or guessing the probability of success. The emphasis is on "immediately". If they have done some math in their head and they determine that any result under a certain number will get an AP, then thats fine; they still don't know what they need for success and good for them for thinking in advance. It shows that they have their head in the game, so that even helps explain the mechanic in game terms. This way, their decision is based, more or less, off a gut reaction to the actual roll of the dice. If they would have succeeded by a slim margin anyway and they opt to use the AP, I'll give it back to them. I feel this is a fair trade for requiring them to "call" the roll.
Amaril 10-19-04, 07:14 PM	If I dm'd with AP, I would rule that it be rolled simultaneously, or at least make the players decide before rolling.
Hellcow 10-19-04, 07:44 PM	Unearthed Arcana was released well before Eberron was. The names are the same, but that is the only thing they have in common. SahinTC has the right of this. If you check the early Eberron previews in Dragon, you'll see a few of the more powerful uses for action points -- including class features for only 1 AP -- mentioned as a feature of Eberron. UA is a compilation book, and as AP were being developed for Eberron, a number of their uses were pulled into UA. Do not use the Action Point material from UA in Eberron games without extensive conversion and forethought. However, Endymnion has the right of this. The more powerful options were pulled from Eberron because they can drastically alter the balance of the game, and we didn't want to suggest them as standard rules. The UA material is an optional varient. If you want to add it in, well, Eberron is already designed to incorporate action points. But it will give the PCs even more power -- and you may want to experiment with the base action points first to make sure that's something you want to do. The fact that many of the AP uses in Eberron - such as activating a class feature - cost 2 AP is intentional, not errata.