Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Incudine 12-14-05, 12:21 PM	I got a questions from a player and I am not sure about the answer: He is playing a WF artificier that is intended to discover the true origins of his race. While speaking with an Aereni Eld wizard he found out a bit about the deathless in Aerenal, this is his reasoning, If they are as old as the Elf nation they should have some records about the WF that were built by the giants, even if they were born a few year after that they should anyhow have history (not legends) about them. what do you think? do they aereni know about the old race of the giant WF? Incudine
Jagermeister 12-14-05, 12:31 PM	If anyone among the Aereni, the ancients of the Undying Court itself may possess remnants of such knowledge, but how a PC Aerenal Elf comes about acquiring said information is something the DM should decide based on what is best for his campaign. Undergoing an adventure to discover this would be enjoyable. My first Eberron PC was an Aereni Cleric of the Undying Court, and while adventuring in Xen'drik at some point, the party did discover hints of ancient Warforged-like beings that had once existed there. The Warforged in our party enjoyed the plot developments that followed this discovery, and it shaped the campaign in drastic ways as we reached higher levels. At any rate, I guess my advice would be that obtaining such information should not be easy, without consequences, or taken lightly.
DragonWatcher 12-14-05, 01:41 PM	I see two different issues here: 1. The elves went to Aerenal after they fought for their freedom against the giants that enslaved them in Xen'drik. As far as I know (and I could be wrong about this), they did not have the deathless traditions until after coming to Aerenal, as it is the manifest zone to Irian on the island that helped create the deathless to begin with. So, it is entirely possible that even the oldest deathless had never seen any of the ancient warforged of Xen'drik. 2. Even discounting my first point, and assuming that there are deathless that know everything about the ancient warforged, well... they haven't been talking so far, so why should your player expect that he will be able to convince them to share their knowledge now? How does he expect to even gain access to see them, and even if he does gain access... I'm betting that they're not gonna share unless they choose to. After all, deathless old enough to have first-hand knowledge of ancient warforged have likely completely decayed by this time and exist only as incorporeal beings of Epic power. No individual PC, or even group of PCs will ever be strong enough to stroll into Shae Mordai and demand that the deathless give up their secrets. So, your player might be correct, that is up to you. However, even if he is correct, that doesn't mean that he will gain access to this information. That also, is up to you.
SPQR Anarchy 12-14-05, 02:06 PM	I would have the information as hard to get a hold of as it would be for one of us to roam around the vetrans of WW2 and ask them about German top secret war machines. They will know what the history channel revealed but for in depth details there would have to be very few of them around. I would think that those who were capable of knowing any secrets in the past would also be capable of securing a good deathless lifestyle and be equally hard to approach. If it is a character goal then exploit that desire and have the deathless use him for his own needs to give over information. Great use of the deathless. SPQR
Hellcow 12-14-05, 02:34 PM	The elves went to Aerenal after they fought for their freedom against the giants that enslaved them in Xen'drik. As far as I know (and I could be wrong about this), they did not have the deathless traditions until after coming to Aerenal, as it is the manifest zone to Irian on the island that helped create the deathless to begin with. Indeed. By the ECS (and when I last saw it, the Player's Guide to Eberron), the Undying Court didn't come into existence until twenty-five thousand years ago, over ten thousand years after the elves left Xen'drik. This is one of the reasons the Tairnadal aren't more impressed with the elves of the Undying Court - because those elves aren't the heroes of Xen'drik, they're just reeaally old Aereni.
Siran Dunmorgan 12-14-05, 03:38 PM	Indeed. By the ECS (and when I last saw it, the Player's Guide to Eberron), the Undying Court didn't come into existence until twenty-five thousand years ago, over ten thousand years after the elves left Xen'drik. This is one of the reasons the Tairnadal aren't more impressed with the elves of the Undying Court - because those elves aren't the heroes of Xen'drik, they're just reeaally old Aereni. But doesn't Magic of Eberron claim that Aeren was both the leader of the rebellion against the giants and the first deathless...? —Siran Dunmorgan P.S. Yes, I'm being facetious. Magic of Eberron seems to be just reprinting the penny-dreadful version: the one that makes both the Aereni and the Tairnadal roll their eyes—or wince—when they hear it.
Hellcow 12-14-05, 07:08 PM	But doesn't Magic of Eberron claim that Aeren was both the leader of the rebellion against the giants and the first deathless...? Yes, it does - and your explanation of this is about as good as any. When last I saw it, the PGtE text maintains that Aeren was a prophet who led a group away from Xen'drik in advance of the draconic assault, and died during the voyage... and that the traditions of the line of Vol and Undying Court were developed in parallel in the centuries that followed, fully emerging long after Aeren's death. We'll see if it still says that when it reaches the shelves. ;)
realdm 12-15-05, 04:15 AM	anyway it seems to me that if the giants were using slave elves they didnt need warforgeds at the time.
Firimar Elerrino 12-15-05, 09:46 AM	Anyway, it seems to me that if the giants were using elven slaves then they didnt need warforged at the time. It seems perfectly logical and reasonable to me that if you possess the ability to create a race of workers more physically capable than your current batch that's also less likely to rebel against you because of their highly impressionable minds, then you'd go and CREATE that race. But that's just silly pragmatism.
ValaR 12-15-05, 10:03 AM	DMs are always right, so you don't need to follow Eberron history blindly, you can change it so it can suit your campagin. ;)
eloth983 12-15-05, 10:10 AM	anyway it seems to me that if the giants were using slave elves they didnt need warforgeds at the time. I always assumed that if the giants did infact first create the warforged, they did it for much the same reason that House Cannith did during the last war. The Giants were fighting and loosing to the Quori at the time I assume they would have made the warforged, and they probaby needed more troops, so instead of waiting to breed another generation of elves, which would take a century, they made an army that took only a few years to breed. the choise there is pretty obvious when you are losing a war.
MarkB 12-15-05, 10:23 AM	I always assumed that if the giants did infact first create the warforged, they did it for much the same reason that House Cannith did during the last war. The Giants were fighting and loosing to the Quori at the time I assume they would have made the warforged, and they probaby needed more troops, so instead of waiting to breed another generation of elves, which would take a century, they made an army that took only a few years to breed. the choise there is pretty obvious when you are losing a war. Or maybe they created them after the Quori war, to fight against the rebelling elves. That might go some way towards explaining why they're elf-sized, not giant-sized. In that case, the secrets of Warforged creation were probably kept very well guarded from the elves, so even an elf who personally remembers those times may be unable to help.
Euangelion 12-15-05, 11:23 AM	So this begs the question: where could that warforged artificer go to find out that kind of information, besides Xen'drik of course?
Firimar Elerrino 12-15-05, 11:35 AM	...Riedra. Or maybe Argonessen. Both options would most likely result in death.
gaerfindel 12-15-05, 12:06 PM	I got a questions from a player and I am not sure about the answer: He is playing a WF artificier that is intended to discover the true origins of his race. While speaking with an Aereni Eld wizard he found out a bit about the deathless in Aerenal, this is his reasoning, if they are as old as the Elf nation they should have some records about the WF that were built by the giants, even if they were born a few year after that they should anyhow have stories (not legends) about them. what do you think? do they aereni know about the old race of the giant WF? As Dragonwatcher and Hellcow point out, the UC formed long after Aeren led *her* people to the island later named "Aeren's Rest".[1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050530a)] However... The Phiarlan tradition is *far* older than the UC,[2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050124a)] so it's entirely possible that there exist records *somewhere* in the archives of Shae Mordai or even one of the demesnes of the Houses of Shadow regarding the "giantforged golemim". This is a campign on the level of The Da Vinci Code.
Hellcow 12-15-05, 02:23 PM	The Phiarlan tradition is *far* older than the UC, so it's entirely possible that there exist records *somewhere*... An excellent point. Another thing to consider. Just because there are warforged in Xen'drik, why assume the giants created them? Perhaps elves created them - a fallen elven civilization like the Qabalrin. Perhaps the quori created them during their incursion. Perhaps the rakshasa created them one hundred thousand years ago. Perhaps ALL of these things are true, and there are multiple "models" of warforged to be found.
Isran_Imrador 12-15-05, 03:46 PM	An excellent point. Another thing to consider. Just because there are warforged in Xen'drik, why assume the giants created them? Perhaps elves created them - a fallen elven civilization like the Qabalrin. Perhaps the quori created them during their incursion. Perhaps the rakshasa created them one hundred thousand years ago. Perhaps ALL of these things are true, and there are multiple "models" of warforged to be found. Hehe, Great Hellcow, Multiple models....so how do you tell between a elven one and a rakshasa model? :plotting: :smirk: :evillaugh
Gez 12-15-05, 04:53 PM	Hehe, Great Hellcow, Multiple models....so how do you tell between a elven one and a rakshasa model? :plotting: :smirk: :evillaugh By their hands, of course. Rakshasan forged have their palms on the up. ;)
realdm 12-16-05, 04:49 AM	Firimar Elerrino It seems perfectly logical and reasonable to me that if you possess the ability to create a race of workers more physically capable than your current batch that's also less likely to rebel against you because of their highly impressionable minds, then you'd go and CREATE that race. it seems logical to you however the giants are supposed to be a proud, powerful and complicated race. maybe at the time they had pleasure watching the elves working like crazy for them. maybe they had some second scope when they were using them. maybe they just didnt rediscover about how to make warforged at the time, or maybe they were using the two races for different tasks, so elves and warforged almost never met each other while on xendrik.
MarkB 12-16-05, 05:11 AM	Hehe, Great Hellcow, Multiple models....so how do you tell between a elven one and a rakshasa model? :plotting: :smirk: :evillaugh <Red Dwarf reference> "Well, for one thing, sir, the elven model will almost never rip off your head and spit down your windpipe." </Red Dwarf reference>
Endless_Helix 12-16-05, 07:48 AM	Or perhaps there are giant warforged running around Xen'drik somewhere. Intelligent giant warforged... Hehehe. Giantforged +4 strength -4 dex +2 con -2 wis -2 cha Large size +5 natural armor bonus Living construct traits Base spell failure 15% Favored class: fighter Language: Ancient Giant Probably about LA +1 if the natural armor seems a bit high, remember that with all the minuses to dex and AC that works out to be equal to AC 12 on a normal progression.
runeguardian 12-16-05, 10:29 AM	Just because there are warforged in Xen'drik, why assume the giants created them? That assumption is an easy one to make. The ECS does state that all docent components speak Giant, and then there is the Xulo construct from Grasp of the Emerald Claw. It seems that it is not only possible, but rather, likely that the giants created warforged. However, I must admit, the idea of others having done so does intrigue me. Multiple "types" of warforged may soon be making an appearance in my campaign. :plotting: As I see it (and for the purposes of my own campaign), the giants did create warforged. Perhaps not all of them, but definately a good number of them. Sure they could have sent armies of elves against the Quori, but aside from their aptitude for the magical arts, warforged make better soldiers. And at least in theory, warforged had one huge advantage over giant and elven soldiers...they don't sleep/trance. This may not be "canon", but in my Eberron, warforged have no connection to Dal Quor. They don't dream. Every time the giants and elves slept or tranced, the Dreaming Dark had the opportunity to lure information from their dreaming minds. Battle plans, troop movements, defensive strategies, and even magical knowledge could be coaxed out of the the sleeping minds. A self-sustained army of warforged would have been a blind-spot. The Quori wouldn't have known about them until the could see them for themselves. I can imagine giant artificers using everything from herbal tonics and magic, to drugs and torture trying to stay awake long enough to complete their work on the warforged so that the Quori wouldn't be the wiser. All the while they'd be driven further and further into paranoia and madness. Perhaps even ending in self-sacrifice so that their knowledge would never reach Dal Quor. ....wow that was deep. lol P.S. First post!! :w00t:
dang 12-17-05, 06:36 PM	trance is not just another word for sleep. if i had tons of time, i think i could find a link to hellcow mentioning that trance/reverie does not link to dal quor. that's why the elves didn't get slaughtered by the quori like the giants did, and were thus given the opportunity to rebell. although, i think that probably also related to the giants giving their trusty slaves weapons to fight for them while the masters slept. the giants' plans could easily have been protected by spells... there was a whole thread on this, i think last week (based around overuse of "nightmare.")