Post/Author/DateTime	Post
amarylis 11-13-04, 11:03 PM	I have questions. How far technologically is airship technology in Eberron? Are there fast small ships or are they only the ones in the source book, are there elamentally bound cannons or is it all bows and such? Feel free to post you own questions.
debatedeus 11-14-04, 01:00 AM	Officially, airships are only as fast as listed in the ECS. Remember that airships are relatively new, and that only a handful exist at the moment. First, certain, faster experimental airships may exist. In the Dragonshard on transportation, Keith Baker suggests just this, and gives ideas generally on how to incorporate all forms of travel into your Eberron Campaign. Second, the gnomes who practice the elemental binding techniques that are required for Airships are not as good at elemental binding as the Drow on Xen'drik; if an airship was produced using Drow binding techniques then it might be faster or more reliable than the current models. Third, an airship is just a story device, so if you want to make a faster airship, feel free! Elemental bound cannons or artillery do not exist in Eberron and the Airship in Whispers of the Vampire's Blade only had three ballista for defense. Maybe an airship could be mounted with eternal wands (lightning bolt and fireball come to mind) to give the effect of magical attack power.
LazarusX 11-14-04, 01:18 AM	Yep, to reiterate... There is no need for gunpowder, cannons, guns, and laser beams! In Eberron; everything can be done with magic. And why mess with that? :P
amarylis 11-14-04, 10:33 AM	I meant cannons that were magically powerd,not gunpowder I dont like that either :P .Debatus i dont want the oficia view i want your view not the books ;) .
debatedeus 11-14-04, 12:21 PM	I meant cannons that were magically powerd,not gunpowder I dont like that either :P .Debatus i dont want the oficia view i want your view not the books ;) . In my case. The three things I said in my post were my favorite takes on airships. That's why I wrote them. Define magically powered cannons? Aren't they just cannons with magic instead of gunpowder? Why shoot shells with magic when you can shoot fireballs with magic? Or lightning bolts? I think that there isn't a need for magically powered artillery when you live in a world where just magic can suit the needs of the group. If you are really pressed, why don't you make magical catapults that shoot flaming spheres that expand when they hit another ship's deck and roll around immolating the crew?
Earthmaster 11-14-04, 12:40 PM	I think what he means by "elementally bound cannons" is cannons that have fire elementals magically bound to them. The fire elementals create fireballs that are launched out of the cannon when they are activated. Perhaps, because of the elementals' intelligence, the fireballs can actually steer themselves towards targets. This, in turn, would inspire air elemental bound targeting systems (since the fireballs fly through the air). What do you think?
grimfaery 11-14-04, 12:40 PM	:eek: Forget all that junk. When I run Eberron every kingdom has entire fleets of airships along with flying fortresses to back them up. Oh, and lets not forget the flying marines with grenades and timed charges. Every ship has a small contingent of gunboats with cannons that use wands as ammunition. Just plop in a wand of fireballs and lose five charges a shot and now your playing with fire. Need a direct shot, then use a lightning bolt wand. Need some grapeshot to take out massed infantry at close range, then use some magic missile wands. Just let it rip in this world man. JUST DO IT! YOUR’RE POLISHING THE BRASS ON THE TITANIC, BUT ITS ALL GOING DOWN MAN! :P
amarylis 11-14-04, 12:45 PM	okay you want me to define my idea so here it is:a magical cannon is a cannon that uses magic as a propulsion, and would have elamentaly bound cannon ball(air or fire probably)and used on a airship(or on a elamentally bound galleon using water buond balls)it would probably have been developed by lyandar and one of the military houses,for use in the last war and it was probably distributed in the later airship models during the last war.Oh and sorry about that debatus I thought those were not your ideas.Cool idea earthmaster(sorry I got mixed up)
Edymnion 11-14-04, 01:05 PM	No, I would not, and will not, use that kind of weaponry in my game, ever. If I want airships with big guns, I put a ballista with enchantments on it on the deck. Giant flaming ballista bolts are much more flavorful than a silly cannonball. If I want multi blast laser cannons, I'll put in a trebuchet that fires electric rocks to fill an area with shot. I will not have ANYTHING that even REMOTELY resembles a gun, a cannon, or any form of blackpowder weaponry in my game. Ever. As far as I'm concerned, they have no place in a fantasy game, not even a pulp-action-adventure setting such as Eberron.
amarylis 11-14-04, 01:37 PM	All right edymnion thats your opinion and your entitled to it,but I feel that your tocosed minded eberron is a pulp/noir setting isnt part of that the one shot gun and such. Edymnion your still thinking normal d&d.Also wands are good substitus and this alsoo thraed about airships in general not just magical cannons.
Edymnion 11-14-04, 01:47 PM	Allright edymion thats your opinion ndyyour entitled to it,but I feel that your tocosed minded eberron is a pulp/noir setting isnt part of that the one shot gun and such.Well, the setting designer has also said he doesn't like the idea of guns of any kind in Eberron either. But, its your game, you can do whatever you like in it. If you want magic cannons, go right ahead. If you want cloaking devices and laser guns on it, thats fine too. Doesn't affect my game one way or the other, so do whatever you enjoy most. :)
PlasmaBunny 11-14-04, 04:20 PM	Forget fireballs and lightning bolts, launch sphere shaped constructs that kill the crew and take control of the ship instead. Far more practical, and leaves more space for the PCs to defend the airship.
amarylis 11-14-04, 05:52 PM	Nice. ;)I dont mean guns I mean cannons theres a diference :rolleyes: a cannon would have probably 3 artificers on it:one to load it one two do whatever to fire it and one to ame it.
Neofish 11-14-04, 06:11 PM	Officially, airships are only as fast as listed in the ECS. Remember that airships are relatively new, and that only a handful exist at the moment. First, certain, faster experimental airships may exist. In the Dragonshard on transportation, Keith Baker suggests just this, and gives ideas generally on how to incorporate all forms of travel into your Eberron Campaign. Second, the gnomes who practice the elemental binding techniques that are required forAirships are not as good at elemental binding as the Drow on Xen'drik; if an airship was produced using Drow binding techniques then it might be faster or more reliable than the current models. Third, an airship is just a story device, so if you want to make a faster airship, feel free! Elemental bound cannons or artillery do not exist in Eberron and the Airship in Whispers of the Vampire's Blade only had three ballista for defense. Maybe an airship could be mounted with eternal wands (lightning bolt and fireball come to mind) to give the effect of magical attack power. Wha.!? Where did youu read that.???
MarkB 11-14-04, 06:40 PM	Wha.!? Where did youu read that.??? It's something that Keith's mentioned in the Ask Keith Baker thread. Q Originally Posted by MarkB So my question is, are most Drow likely to be primitive nocturnal tribes? Or advanced and civilised underground-city-dwellers? Or somewhere in between? Or perhaps, there are examples of all of these across the continent? A Drow are nomadic clans who move between the surface and underground. Sophistication varies from clan to clan. Some are completely feral. Most are in the middle; they make use of iron-age weaponry and cunning tactics, and they possess magic items either handed down over the generations or scavenged from the giant ruins. Then there are a few clans that have held on to magical traditions from ancient times. These drow are masters of elemental binding, and have practiced this art far longer than the gnomes of Zilargo. Beyond that you'll have to wait for a dragonshard!
Isran_Imrador 11-15-04, 08:39 AM	In MM3, drow may have gound an omnimental and a storm elemental so the must be good at it... an airship may have many elementals bound to it to reach greater speeds..
GoodGuy89 11-15-04, 08:48 AM	I agree with Edymnion on the point of cannons. Ballistas (ballistae?) are much better in flavor than cannons. Still, it entirely depends of the DM. I could see an elite battleship mounted with eternal wands, but not your average airship. In my campaign, the PC's have collected a schema for house Cannith (no, not Forgotten Forge) which describes a way for airships to land and take of vertical, just like helicopters. The poor maneuvrebility of airships always bothered me.
Lujayne34 11-15-04, 09:17 AM	what about the "greek fire" projectors from Spelljammer?
Kid SixXx 11-15-04, 09:31 AM	As far as ruleslawyering goes, Edymnion is on the money. Officially, airship magitech is not as far along as most people believe, and IIRC, they are primarily used as transport, although most have been fitted for defense. Both fire elementals & air elementals can be bound to serve as airship propulsion, and weaponry is pretty standard with ballistae being the norm. There could be room for Greek Fire projectors, but that would seem pretty suicidal, as combat is taking place in mid air as opposed to the open sea, where there is some room for escape if things go wrong (ie. diving into the ocean). I would imagine that the best weapon an airship could have, would be a reinforced bow section to make ramming more effective. Right now, the premier example of airship combat is probably the instance in the module, Whisper of the Vampire's Blade.
MarkB 11-15-04, 10:10 AM	an airship may have many elementals bound to it to reach greater speeds.. That's an approach I took when designing the Arrowhawk (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.blunden/dnd/fota/arrow.htm), the prototype airship which serves as the base for my current online campaign. With three elementals, it can achieve significantly higher speeds than a standard vessel, despite the increased size.
debatedeus 11-15-04, 10:31 AM	There could be room for Greek Fire projectors, but that would seem pretty suicidal, as combat is taking place in mid air as opposed to the open sea, where there is some room for escape if things go wrong (ie. diving into the ocean). ... Right now, the premier example of airship combat is probably the instance in the module, Whisper of the Vampire's Blade. In Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, the skiff with Rangers all have rings of Feather Falling, and the crew of the Cloud's Destiny all have potions of Feather Fall, so it seems to me that the people do have a place to go besides *splat*.
Kid SixXx 11-15-04, 11:57 AM	In Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, the skiff with Rangers all have rings of Feather Falling, and the crew of the Cloud's Destiny all have potions of Feather Fall, so it seems to me that the people do have a place to go besides *splat*. I'm sure folks said "The Titanic has enough lifeboats" as well, but we all know what happened there. :rolleyes: Now, let's place the Titanic in mid-air! :D Greek Fire also has the notoriety of being extremely difficult to put out, so I'd imagine that air piracy, and defense from air piracy, would have to be a pretty demanding science, which is why simple projectiles like ballistae would be perfect. The object would be to win combat without suffering too much damage to your own vessel. The penalties for error could range from the death of most of the crew / passengers (if not everyone on board in a worst-case scenario), to the loss of an airship, which are rare as it is.
Isran_Imrador 11-15-04, 05:30 PM	The Arrowhawk is cool! twin hulls, Nice...!-) where are you based? stormhome? my lyrandar wizard would like to meet the captain!
MarkB 11-15-04, 05:42 PM	The Arrowhawk is cool! twin hulls, Nice...!-) where are you based? stormhome? my lyrandar wizard would like to meet the captain! She's just set sail from Fairhaven, bound for the depths of Xen'drik via Sharn.
Isran_Imrador 11-17-04, 08:05 AM	Ok, sorry to say but he got killed by the emerald claw. you can take a small black flagg up, to remember fallen family.... Lyrandar are the coolest.. Bon Voyage! hope you make it back..
chimpman 01-04-05, 01:07 AM	That's an approach I took when designing the Arrowhawk (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.blunden/dnd/fota/arrow.htm), the prototype airship which serves as the base for my current online campaign. With three elementals, it can achieve significantly higher speeds than a standard vessel, despite the increased size. I was cruising around looking for answers to my airship questions and I stumbled upon this thread. I've also been thinking about multiple elemental rings for airships, but I have a question about control. How do you handle controlling the elementals? Do you need multiple "pilots" or does the Helm of Wind and Air (or whatever it's called) control all of them? I'm also thinking about having a privateer ship (not controlled by House Lyrander), nd am wondering about controls for this vessel. Could a "helm of elemental control" - basically a wonderous magic item that casts Charm Monster on the elemental - be used to fly the vessel? I figure such an item would run about 50,000 gp. Expensve, but within the reach of a rich nobel. Oh... one more question. What size of elemental is bound to the ship. Could you increase the speed of the airship by increasing the size of the bound elemental?
UliahHafengrim 01-04-05, 01:44 AM	Airships in the game are mostly a storytelling tool to add more adventure and flavor to the game. I think that as a DM it is your prerogative as to whether or not you create a non-Lyrander-affiliated airship and a way for a character without a Lyrander dragonmark to pilot said airship, however... As explained in detail in the posts in the A.K.B. FAQ, airships are extremely difficult to create, requiring more than a willing noble and a very deep coinpurse to construct. Currently, only the Zilargo gnomes have enough of a proficiency with elemental binding to create an airship (possibly requiring some kind of creation forge/eldritch machine?). So, not only would said noble need to be able to pay for an airship, he would have to have an extremely good relationship with the gnomes in order to do so. As it is, House Lyrander has only a small fleet available to them--which implies a few things: One: That they don't have enough resources to create a massive fleet, which begs the question, if a dragonmarked House can't afford to build that many ships, how could a single noble afford to build one? Two: The gnomes don't just build airships for anyone who coughs up the gold to create one. I think that those kinds of restrictions are in place to basically prevent powerful PCs (and in Eberron, PCs are especially more powerful and influential) from abusing the potential power of airships. Players will look for any way they can to increase their characters wealth and power, and airships are a great way to do that. Beyond the creation of airships, currently the only way to control elementals is through the power of a dragonmarked member of House Lyrander. That implies an affiliation with House Lyrander of some kind. At the moment, House Lyrander is currently working on a way to break the Zilargo monopoly on construction methods. But if someone muscles in on their own airship operations, they will probably take action. That being said, there are a number of interesting adventure/campaign ideas that can come from a privateer vessel and the issues involved. Is it a rogue Lyrander, fighting against his old house? Perhaps someone who found a wrecked airship and was able to rebuild it? I don't have a copy of Sharn: City of Towers, but I vaguely remember reading something about a noble or someone who has their own airship. I could be mistaken. As far as how to control the airship: as a DM, you can come up any answer you want. I'd imagine that multiple pilots would be somewhat counter-intuitive, though. Perhaps a more powerful elemental would indeed be able to increase the speed of an airship, without having to resort to attempting control over multiple elementals. As a technology, airship design and construction is still in its infancy... Before you advance to jets and rocketry, you need to move through propellers and dirigibles. Keep that in mind before turning Eberron into something Final Fantasy-esque.
Neofish 01-04-05, 02:15 AM	Beyond the creation of airships, currently the only way to control elementals is through the power of a dragonmarked member of House Lyrander. That implies an affiliation with House Lyrander of some kind. At the moment, House Lyrander is currently working on a way to break the Zilargo monopoly on construction methods. But if someone muscles in on their own airship operations, they will probably take action. Or an opposed Charisma check. :D
Gez 01-04-05, 04:51 AM	I meant cannons that were magically-powered... It already exists. It is called an eternal wand of fireball. Can shoot two 6d6 fireballs a day.
chimpman 01-04-05, 11:50 AM	Or an opposed Charisma check. :D Or a reliable way to cast Charm Monster on them ;). That's one of the reasons I want to know about the size (in HD) of a normal airship elemental. The larger the elemental, the better the will save. Is a Helm of Elemental Control even feasible? Would you need additional magic (to lower the elemental's wisdom score for example) in order to make the Helm of Elemental Control useful? Charm Monster lasts 1 day per caster level (min = 7th) so once the spell takes hold you should be able to fly around for a while without any trouble. It's just getting the spell to take hold initially that might be the problem. Let's make said Helm of Elemental Control use activiate/continuous. The cost of such an item would be 4(spell level) * 7(caster level) * 2000 = 56,000gp. This is 7 times more expensive than the Lyrander Helm of Wind and Air, but still within the realm of reason for a rich noble to commision. So assuming that a non Lyrander privateer can get his hands on an airship, with a little money they should be able to control it reliably. Unless I'm making some worng assumptions. Let me know what you think.
Euangelion 01-04-05, 02:43 PM	On pages 124 and 125 of the ECS, it's mentioned that a few airships are outside of Lyrandar's control, operated by privateers.
Romulus LoneWolf 01-04-05, 05:07 PM	It's only a matter of time before someone tries to steal the knowledge of building Airships to try and build a fleet of Combat Airships... As for the whole cannon/gun thing, I'm with Endymion: keeping the pseudo-medieval flavor by using Ballistae instead of cannons makes it a bit more exotic and a bit less like "Pirates of the Carribean... In the Sky!" Combining Airships and other magic and fantasy elements, you get even more interesting ideas, like pirates using Wings of Flying to raid ships.
RatFlail OF DOOM!!!! 01-04-05, 05:22 PM	In my campaign there was a setting in which my party was on an airship and they had to release a baby blue dragon from a stolen airship before the mom comes by. We had a side by side air ship battle *our dm got airship layouts from somewhere i dunt know where* Our dm used the core class from the miniatures handbook as the captain of the enemy airship and had a bunch of pirates with crossbows. There were also two mages. Wands are alot better than cannons and u can play fetch if any worgs or yeth hounds come by. why have a gun when u can have a wand of..... EMPOWERED FLAME STRIKE!!! *i like that spell holy and fire damage* but if u really need bombs than u could always use that spell that makes acorns into bombs. O if u were wondering how the setting ended the privateer of our airship happened to be the dragon in disguise...
Edymnion 01-04-05, 05:42 PM	And really, the image of a guy on an airship with a big Heavy Crossbow that takes his aim, pulls the trigger, and sends a bolt of fire streaking across the sky is much cooler than some guy with a gun that just makes a big noise, throws up some smoke, and the guy on the other side falls over. Its like having a Star Trek battle with invisible phasers. No fun there!
Useless 01-04-05, 08:00 PM	And really, the image of a guy on an airship with a big Heavy Crossbow that takes his aim, pulls the trigger, and sends a bolt of fire streaking across the sky is much cooler than some guy with a gun that just makes a big noise, throws up some smoke, and the guy on the other side falls over. Ah, now thats unfair. Theres lots of good stuff to be had from guns. You can have the glowing coals of peoples matches that people blow on gently while they wait. You have Last of the Mohicans, which if you haven't seen it recently is worth watching. Theres a bit where Hawkeye drops to one knee so the bad guy shoots over his head that is just so cool, and the he and Chingachgook are clearing a path for this messenger, and people are handing them loaded rifles and they are shooting guys off him and the whole thing is just badass. You've got the race built galleons of the Elizabethan navy with their long guns, built to stand off and fight. You've got the Revenge engaging fifty five Spanish warships and taking fifteen to the bottom with her. You have Sharpe and Harper and Baker rifles and standing in the line firing three rounds a minute. Until at least the Crimean war smoothbore artillery threw shot slowly enough that the opposition could watch it bouncing towards them (on hard ground anyway - in soft ground they would dig in on the first bounce) and cavalrymen charging guns could even dodge it at long ranges. You've got red hot shot (heating your cannonballs in a furnace until they glow and set fire to the opposition) You've got the gun crews of Jack Aubery's navy - when the gun slams back from the recoil five burly men go to work sponging the barrel, ramming the powder, the wadding the shot, pouring the priming charge, running out the gun, manhandling it around with then firing as the roll of the ship brings the muzzle on to your opposition. You've got long brass nines mounted in chase, firing the finest powder and laid by the master gunner and the captain, loaded by picked men, firing at a fleeing target to bring down a yard or smash a rudder or wheel and so bring another prize. Honestly, its so odd when you get things like The Liveship Traders where it really seems that everyone is wearing 18th century dress but there are no guns Because There Are No Guns In Fantasy. Bah! Bring on Flintloque I say. Except for the dog people, which was a mistake. -- Incidentally, that Arrowhawk is a nice design.
Edymnion 01-04-05, 08:28 PM	Um, there's nothing there that can't be done by ballistas and crossbows. Red hot shot? Its a ballista with the Flaming enchantment on it. Firing off three rounds per minute? Crossbow can do 10. Handing them loaded rifles? Hand them loaded crossbows. Big cannons shunting back when fired? A ballista that isn't properly anchored will do the same thing. Really isn't anything you can do with a gun that you can't do with a crossbow, and the crossbows are simple weapons that everybody is proficient with, even wizards and sorcerers.
Useless 01-04-05, 08:51 PM	But bows just make a girly twanging noise. Guns go Boom and Flash and let out Sheets of Flame and Clouds of Smoke! How are you going to get manly soot on you cheeks with just a stick and some sting? How are you and the lads to charge out of the smoke? No, all in all guns are just far more dramatic and only someone with no sense of drama could thing otherwise.
Romulus LoneWolf 01-04-05, 09:27 PM	But bows just make a girly twanging noise. Guns go Boom and Flash and let out Sheets of Flame and Clouds of Smoke! So use more arrows/bolts with Thunderstone heads for the Booms, or Sparkstone heads for the Flashes, and one with Smokesticks attached for the Clouds of Smoke. How are you going to get manly soot on you cheeks with just a stick and some sting? Bah! Real Men don't need Guns to reassert their Manhoods! How are you and the lads to charge out of the smoke? Try magically summoned clouds of smoke, or smoke caused by fire on the ships? No, all in all guns are just far more dramatic and only someone with no sense of drama could thing otherwise. Oh, I'm sure every fan of Robin Hood movies could argue otherwise..
Minister_for_Moral_Truth 01-04-05, 10:19 PM	And fans of Master and Commander and Waterloo would argue right back at you. Which reminds me, I must see what Flintloque stuff I can dredge up. Dim rememberings of seeing it in the local toy/hobby shop as a wee wain are surfacing and giving me ideas. Ideas which involve my atitude on elves transfering over to the French...
Edymnion 01-04-05, 10:39 PM	But bows just make a girly twanging noise.Nope, crossbows make a manly THWUNK! ;) Guns go Boom and Flash and let out Sheets of Flame and Clouds of Smoke!Enchant it with Flaming and Thundering, and you've got a crack of thunder and a firey shard flying through the air. How are you going to get manly soot on you cheeks with just a stick and some sting?Um, only way you'd get soot on your cheeks with a gun is if it exploded in your face... How are you and the lads to charge out of the smoke?Wand of Obscuring Mist :)
UliahHafengrim 01-05-05, 02:48 AM	Guns/cannons are more than just technological ways of accomplishing the same thing crossbows/ballistae/longbows do. Joel Rosenberg's The Guardians of the Flame series illustrates very well how guns, introduced to a traditional swords & sorcery fantasy setting, can drastically change the socio-political landscape. For those of you who haven't read it, I would highly recommend it. Basically, a few people from Earth somehow find themselves inhabiting the bodies of their characters in the fantasy world they've been gaming in. One of those people happens to be an extremely intelligent Engineering grad student, who ends up developing gunpowder and flintlock firearms. Once the 'real-worlders' start using firearms, they become one of the most influential political groups (in a manner of speaking) in the Eren Regions (the setting in which the series takes place). Whereas it takes years of training to use bows accurately and effectively, any yokel can be trained to use a gun. As can be seen in Earth history, small armies of peasants with guns could annihialate much larger, much better trained and experienced forces (pre-Tokugawa Era Japan comes to mind). Personally, I think steampunk genres' mix of science and fantasy is a lot of fun, but I don't think that guns mix well with Eberron... with magic being such an easy tool, there is no need to develop other forms of technology (like guns). Why go through the trouble of developing light bulbs and the requisite electrical technology when any magewright can quickly put together a continual flame lantern that doesn't use energy and lasts forever?
Gez 01-05-05, 03:53 AM	Second, the gnomes who practice the elemental binding techniques that are required for Airships are not as good at elemental binding as the Drow on Xen'drik; if an airship was produced using Drow binding techniques then it might be faster or more reliable than the current models. Wha.!? Where did you read that.??? It's something that Keith's mentioned in the Ask Keith Baker thread. The Ask Keith Baker FAQ Q Originally Posted by MarkB So my question is, are most Drow likely to be primitive nocturnal tribes? Or advanced and civilised underground-city-dwellers? Or somewhere in between? Or perhaps, there are examples of all of these across the continent? A Drow are nomadic clans who move between the surface and underground. Sophistication varies from clan to clan. Some are completely feral. Most are in the middle; they make use of iron-age weaponry and cunning tactics, and they possess magic items either handed down over the generations or scavenged from the giant ruins. Then there are a few clans that have held on to magical traditions from ancient times. These drow are masters of elemental binding, and have practiced this art far longer than the gnomes of Zilargo. Beyond that you'll have to wait for a dragonshard! It doesn't say that the drow practice this art better than the gnomes. Just that they have practiced it for far longer. But that doesn't mean anything, really. It's just a few clans (because others clans of drow are primitive savage that run naked and fling poop at their enemies) versus more than one million of gnomes (220K in Aundair, 518K in Breland, 32K in Darguun, 35K in the Eldeen Reaches, 80K in the Lhazaar Principalities, 56K in the Mror Holds, and 150K in Zilargo). What's best for achieving breakthrough in a domain, a long time with a few minds? Or a shorter time with many, many, many more minds, the resources of good academic teaching, vast libraries, and an industrial-type economy and the corresponding mindset? I can see the drow keeping on old elemental binding traditions, safekeeping the techniques they have inherited from their ancestors, who themselves stole these secrets from the Giants of old. While the gnomes, on the other hand, are constantly trying to perfect their techniques and to find new ways to use them. So, Keith said these drow "are masters of elemental binding" -- great deal. He said exactly the same thing about gnomes (ECS p.15). And having practiced something for a longer time than other people does not mean having greater insight into said thing. So, I see no reason why the drow would be better elemental binders than the gnomes. Sure, they probably know some things the gnomes don't know. And the reverse is true. Unless Keith's dragonshard on drow will say they have supersonic airships, you'll allow me to doubt they could be better airshipwrights.
Roxlimn 01-05-05, 01:47 PM	While I don't doubt that lots of fun can be had by guns and firearms, I rather doubt that Eberron is heading anytime that way. After all, just getting a single level of Wizard or Druid or even Magewright can offer you and your allies so much firepower for a comparatively cheap price. Pound for pound, gold for gold, a Wand of X is generally more powerful than any comparable period firearm and it comes with a bonus: the know how is already there. You just have to have enough UMD to know how to use it. In a very real sense, Wands are the Guns of D&D and we even have examples of dual wand wielders and wand slingers. Why waste time with a Cannonball when you can Warp Wood? The Warp doesn't miss, and you can also use it to neutralize enemy ballistae, crossbows, and various other sundry targets. Plus, you can unwarp the target after you're done taking over. If pure long range destruction's on your mind, then a nice Acidball or Sonicball fits the bill excellently at ranges most cannons would find difficult to target. A single Sonicball at 6th level of ability can be fired from 640 feet or about 213 yards away with no chance of missing. It ignores hardness so it's more liable to do lots more structural damage than a Cannonball, and you can target the part you want to hit without any chance of hitting something else by accident. Indeed, in a battle between two ships, one with a line of cannons, and another with 3 Mages using Sonicball wands, I fully expect the Mages to win handily as they can simply target the ship's lower sections and send her to the bottom all too quickly. It gets better. You can actually take over the enemy ship with little to no structural damage, a prospect that would make most pirates drool with greed. A Nonlethal Fireball does absolutely no damage to objects but is likely just as effective at clearing the enemy crew for boarding purposes. Not only can you salvage the ship and use her for your own, you can literally take the very shirts off of your enemy's backs and sell those, too! For short range defense, few options beat Web. Gum up the sail lines and divide the enemy's defensive troops. Blind the helmsman, Web up the cannons (for those foolish enough to get them)... Of course, they can burn the stuff away, but burning things on board a ship doesn't sound like a good plan, and it'll take forever to do it. Stinking Cloud is wondrous on a sailing vessel. Normally, the best defense against the Cloud is to get out of it, but if you don't have anywhere else to go... These are really only "pistols" as far as magic is concerned, for the real "cannons", we have to look to Staves and Wondrous Items. It seems to me that a battery of Cannons is a pale comparison to the ability to tag 3 or 4 Huge Air Elementals or a couple Giant Squid. Heck, a Celestial Orca or two's pretty intimidating, too, or maybe a squad of Celestial Griffons. You can use things like Cloudkill, or Split Disintegrate if that's your cup of tea, though I might comment that you might be overkilling on the firepower there a bit. Of course, Celestial Griffons don't exactly demonstrate a restraint of power, either. The best that might be said about Cannons is that they're cheap, but then again, you don't instantly come up with things like Cannons either. Most early cannons were really quite disappointing, and given this record and against Magic and the Artificers, I don't see guns and cannons being a sensible choice in Eberron. If I was ever going to introduce a cannon-like device in Eberron, it would most likely be a Wondrous Magic Item with an Eberron shard or multiple Eberron shards, not too different from an Eternal Wand crossed with a Helm of Wind and Water. Most likely, it would be a Fireball effect of some sort. I would most likely rule the item to be too heavy to move around. It's going to be an implaced cannon, not a portable one. It would most likely be shaped like a gigantic wand or staff or a fantastic balllista of some sort. It would function almost exactly like a Wand, but would not require Artificer levels, or UMD skills, or spell list possession. The fact that it was nonportable should discourage most PCs from getting out of hand, and the cost-availability should be weighed against what is already currently in use and what can be expected. Perhaps I would rule that it was Fire Elemental bound, but that would be purely for flavor purposes.
Alac Luin 01-05-05, 02:06 PM	(because others clans of drow are primitive savage that run naked and fling poop at their enemies) I love this line!!!! Ramrod climbed over a moss covered log in the jungle, searching for the old giant ruins. Ramrod happened to be a warforged built just before the end of the last war. Now, warforged have only have about a 30 history of being built by House Canith. Ramrod has seen some artifacts returned to Breland by Ignof, the shifter scout of this mission, they deffinitly looked like they were built for a warforged by the giants, or possibly their Elvin slaves. In a way, he felt that he was searching out his ancestors. "Eeeew!" The alarm was raised by Ignof, ahead of the party. "Drow ambush!" Before he could react, Ramrod was hit in the face with fecal matter.
Romulus LoneWolf 01-05-05, 03:33 PM	It doesn't say that the drow practice this art better than the gnomes. Just that they have practiced it for far longer. But that doesn't mean anything, really. It's just a few clans (because others clans of drow are primitive savage that run naked and fling poop at their enemies) versus more than one million of gnomes (220K in Aundair, 518K in Breland, 32K in Darguun, 35K in the Eldeen Reaches, 80K in the Lhazaar Principalities, 56K in the Mror Holds, and 150K in Zilargo. I plan on running Drow as follows in my campaign: All those "Savage Barbarian headhunters"? Nothing more then border patrols watching the outer frontiers of Drow territory for intruders and for giants. They also double as slave-hunters. Beyond these "border patrols" is the heart of the Drow kingdom, a rich civilisation equal to everything the Elves of Aerenal built, founded amongst the ruins of a few Giant cities (each building large enough to hold more then a few Drow keeps and towns), exploiting the magical lore recovered from the fallen giants, and now using the slave labor of giants, enslaved by those whom their ancestors once kept as slaves.
Edymnion 01-05-05, 04:28 PM	I plan on running them as a bunch of half-sentient poop flinging barbarians myself. As in cave man level intelligence, weapons, and clothing. A few clans will have retained civilization enough to be interesting, but for the most part, the drow are a feral race. Just because I frelling hate Drizzt, and all the munchkins out there that think that, somehow, playing a drow makes them some kind of uber-roleplayer with the single coolest, most original character ever. That just happens to be a ranger that dual weilds scimitars, despite the fact that dual rapiers is more mechanically sound.
Romulus LoneWolf 01-05-05, 04:59 PM	I plan on running them as a bunch of half-sentient poop flinging barbarians myself. As in cave man level intelligence, weapons, and clothing. Now, honestly... ...I don't find caveman-level dark elves all that interesting. Now, Dark Elves with a bloodthirsty Aztek/Samurai/Headhunter/Parthian culture using magical technology recovered from their own masters, now THERE's something interesting. :P (no insult intended.) Edit: I have to agree on the Dr'izzt clone bit, though. They can be so tiresome. Unfortunetly, in a setting where Drow aren't automatically Evil, it's likely Drow characters will be just as popular as in Forgotten Realms.