Airships, Lift,and Elementals [Archive] - Wizards Community

Airships, Lift,and Elementals [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KingNeo
07-14-05, 09:00 PM Ok my question how in the world is a fire elemental suppose to create lift for anything, especially something as big and heavy as a airship? Why didn't they just use air elementals, something directly tied to air and aviation? Just wondering.

Also could a person just use a possession type spell or power or ability to gain full control of a airship, instead of making those constant checks? If so how would the elemental and airship act if the possession was some how broken?
Soulkeeper
07-14-05, 09:26 PM Not connected to your question, but you may also be interested in another thread on aitships going on: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=463172

As for your questions, I ask myself that same thing. I can see the fire acting as propulsion, with a touch of "imagination", same with air.

My bigger concern is direction, I just don't see the rings providing anything but lift and push, unless the harness rotates to a degree.

As such, I have raised the idea of still attaching a sail harness to a airship to enable standard sailing controls, with a propulsion ring acting only for lift and propulsion. You obviously still then need a (man) to control the elemental, but you can furry a full crew of sailors, or pirates, to navigate your vessal.
Beleriphon
07-14-05, 09:58 PM Also could a person just use a possession type spell or power or ability to gain full control of a airship, instead of making those constant checks? If so how would the elemental and airship act if the possession was some how broken?

Yes you can, and it acts just like the spell. So the airship acts as normal for the duration of the spell.
Radkres
07-14-05, 10:59 PM Well on lift I would suggest several levitate items are linked and embedded in the hull.
With enough of them you would neutralize the weight of the ship so the propulsion would be the elemental ring driving the ship.
So the ship would be held aloft by the levitation items and driven by the elemental.
Any way an idea on how it could be done.
Ayers
07-15-05, 12:46 AM Alright, I'll try and help you out, but if I start babbling, just ignore this.

First of all, you have to remember that Airships are made of Soarwood which, I believe, would make it easier to get lift. Because of the fact that Soarwood possess a "magical buoyancy" with the proper propullsion and materials it is able to move through air.

Concerning the Elementals it says in the Eberron Campaign Setting that Fire Elementals are the most common ones to be used, that others are used as well. So, there are, in theory, Air Elementals that power the Airships.

Now, I've always imagined the Fire Elemental (Aware there are other Elementals, but just because it seems to be the most common) is used to power some other kind of power source which makes the Airship move. But, that's just me. I don't really know if it's the elemental itself that pushes the airship forward, or if it's used to create the power for it.

My bigger concern is direction, I just don't see the rings providing anything but lift and push, unless the harness rotates to a degree.

I imagine you're talking about turning right? If you aren't then, I'm sorry, but looking at the picture of the Airship in the Eberron Campaign Setting (Page 125) you can see a rudder--I think it's a rudder or perhaps a flap--of the Airship. I believe that those would be used to steer the Airship in different directions.
Fordel
07-15-05, 03:17 AM How does a Fire Elemental create lift? Simple, heat rises :P hehe...
ekomega
07-15-05, 03:56 AM The same way lift is created in airplanes?

Maybe the ring is cleverly sloped, so that a pressure gradient is created across it. The soarwood makes the ship not need very much lift, which is good given the inefficiency of the ring shape for producing lift.

Also, the fire elemental could be producing thermal currents to increase the lift (by being made of fire), aside from the mere forward motion of the ship.

The ship is clearly not a lifting body (unless they have those kinds of ships), so it has to have lift surfaces somewhere. I suggested the ring itself, earlier, but maybe they're all over the ship, incorporated into the design.

All it really requires is that the fire elemental can move the ship forward in some way, which is explainable several ways.

It can produce thrust either magically, or in theory by rotating around the ring and producing thrust toward the center of the ring (also still requires some magic). There are other ways, but magic is easiest.
cmanos
07-15-05, 07:46 AM one word...MAGIC. Don't even TRY to explain fantasy things in terms of science. If a fire elemental creating enough lift to keep an airdhip aloft boggles your mind, how do you feel about people creating balls of fire out of mid air? Or Half-Elves who can change the weather in a small area? Do you KNOW what kind of effect a small weather change would have on a global scale?

Just stop appolying logic to a fantasy game, accept it at face value and HAVE FUN!
Sereno
07-15-05, 09:38 AM In Keith's novel, there's a "stormship" (which has nothing to do with the stormship that will be in the new Eberron Explorer's Handbook, coming soon) that uses a bound air elemental; the "storm" comes from the lightning and "clouds" generated by the elemental bound to its ring. So, there's precedent for binding both air and fire elementals to airships.

Also, in this picture http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707a (under the Explorer's Handbook heading) there's two docked airships, one with the familiar encircling ring of fire and one with a vertical ring which looks like air (to me) *behind* the ship.

Perhaps the magic of the ring doesn't work like a jet engine or a propeller ... perhaps it just pushes the ship in whatever direction the helmsman orders the elemental to push it and the natural shape the ship tends to point it in the proper direction. It might even be possible to have a ship which mounts one or more rings vertically above decks like sails. I can picture a huge "clipper" airship with numerous bound air elemental rings attached to metal masts.

In addition, as pointed out by Ayers, they do seem to have rudders like airplanes, too.

In my Eberron campaign, the characters have recently traveled to Sharn down the Dagger River on an "elemental riverboat" which I made to look like a cross between a galley and a Mississippi riverboat. Instead of oars or sails, it's got two bound water elementals in rings along the sides like riverboat paddlewheels. The way I described it was that the rings didn't actually spin, but the elemental affected the flow of water around the ship for propulsion.

And, of course, as cmanos points out ... it IS magic! :D
Kaverael
07-15-05, 02:50 PM In my opinion when the elemental is bound to the ship, the ship becomes attached to the elemental, like strapping on a backpack. The weight of the ship is miniscule compared to what the elemental can carry. The helmsman then needs to just persuade the elemental to "go over there" or "go up". The elemental wanders around at the helmsman's direction dragging the ship around with it.
Soulkeeper
07-15-05, 02:54 PM Like a dog sled in essence. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KingNeo 07-14-05, 09:00 PM	Ok my question how in the world is a fire elemental suppose to create lift for anything, especially something as big and heavy as a airship? Why didn't they just use air elementals, something directly tied to air and aviation? Just wondering. Also could a person just use a possession type spell or power or ability to gain full control of a airship, instead of making those constant checks? If so how would the elemental and airship act if the possession was some how broken?
Soulkeeper 07-14-05, 09:26 PM	Not connected to your question, but you may also be interested in another thread on aitships going on: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=463172 As for your questions, I ask myself that same thing. I can see the fire acting as propulsion, with a touch of "imagination", same with air. My bigger concern is direction, I just don't see the rings providing anything but lift and push, unless the harness rotates to a degree. As such, I have raised the idea of still attaching a sail harness to a airship to enable standard sailing controls, with a propulsion ring acting only for lift and propulsion. You obviously still then need a (man) to control the elemental, but you can furry a full crew of sailors, or pirates, to navigate your vessal.
Beleriphon 07-14-05, 09:58 PM	Also could a person just use a possession type spell or power or ability to gain full control of a airship, instead of making those constant checks? If so how would the elemental and airship act if the possession was some how broken? Yes you can, and it acts just like the spell. So the airship acts as normal for the duration of the spell.
Radkres 07-14-05, 10:59 PM	Well on lift I would suggest several levitate items are linked and embedded in the hull. With enough of them you would neutralize the weight of the ship so the propulsion would be the elemental ring driving the ship. So the ship would be held aloft by the levitation items and driven by the elemental. Any way an idea on how it could be done.
Ayers 07-15-05, 12:46 AM	Alright, I'll try and help you out, but if I start babbling, just ignore this. First of all, you have to remember that Airships are made of Soarwood which, I believe, would make it easier to get lift. Because of the fact that Soarwood possess a "magical buoyancy" with the proper propullsion and materials it is able to move through air. Concerning the Elementals it says in the Eberron Campaign Setting that Fire Elementals are the most common ones to be used, that others are used as well. So, there are, in theory, Air Elementals that power the Airships. Now, I've always imagined the Fire Elemental (Aware there are other Elementals, but just because it seems to be the most common) is used to power some other kind of power source which makes the Airship move. But, that's just me. I don't really know if it's the elemental itself that pushes the airship forward, or if it's used to create the power for it. My bigger concern is direction, I just don't see the rings providing anything but lift and push, unless the harness rotates to a degree. I imagine you're talking about turning right? If you aren't then, I'm sorry, but looking at the picture of the Airship in the Eberron Campaign Setting (Page 125) you can see a rudder--I think it's a rudder or perhaps a flap--of the Airship. I believe that those would be used to steer the Airship in different directions.
Fordel 07-15-05, 03:17 AM	How does a Fire Elemental create lift? Simple, heat rises :P hehe...
ekomega 07-15-05, 03:56 AM	The same way lift is created in airplanes? Maybe the ring is cleverly sloped, so that a pressure gradient is created across it. The soarwood makes the ship not need very much lift, which is good given the inefficiency of the ring shape for producing lift. Also, the fire elemental could be producing thermal currents to increase the lift (by being made of fire), aside from the mere forward motion of the ship. The ship is clearly not a lifting body (unless they have those kinds of ships), so it has to have lift surfaces somewhere. I suggested the ring itself, earlier, but maybe they're all over the ship, incorporated into the design. All it really requires is that the fire elemental can move the ship forward in some way, which is explainable several ways. It can produce thrust either magically, or in theory by rotating around the ring and producing thrust toward the center of the ring (also still requires some magic). There are other ways, but magic is easiest.
cmanos 07-15-05, 07:46 AM	one word...MAGIC. Don't even TRY to explain fantasy things in terms of science. If a fire elemental creating enough lift to keep an airdhip aloft boggles your mind, how do you feel about people creating balls of fire out of mid air? Or Half-Elves who can change the weather in a small area? Do you KNOW what kind of effect a small weather change would have on a global scale? Just stop appolying logic to a fantasy game, accept it at face value and HAVE FUN!
Sereno 07-15-05, 09:38 AM	In Keith's novel, there's a "stormship" (which has nothing to do with the stormship that will be in the new Eberron Explorer's Handbook, coming soon) that uses a bound air elemental; the "storm" comes from the lightning and "clouds" generated by the elemental bound to its ring. So, there's precedent for binding both air and fire elementals to airships. Also, in this picture http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707a (under the Explorer's Handbook heading) there's two docked airships, one with the familiar encircling ring of fire and one with a vertical ring which looks like air (to me) behind the ship. Perhaps the magic of the ring doesn't work like a jet engine or a propeller ... perhaps it just pushes the ship in whatever direction the helmsman orders the elemental to push it and the natural shape the ship tends to point it in the proper direction. It might even be possible to have a ship which mounts one or more rings vertically above decks like sails. I can picture a huge "clipper" airship with numerous bound air elemental rings attached to metal masts. In addition, as pointed out by Ayers, they do seem to have rudders like airplanes, too. In my Eberron campaign, the characters have recently traveled to Sharn down the Dagger River on an "elemental riverboat" which I made to look like a cross between a galley and a Mississippi riverboat. Instead of oars or sails, it's got two bound water elementals in rings along the sides like riverboat paddlewheels. The way I described it was that the rings didn't actually spin, but the elemental affected the flow of water around the ship for propulsion. And, of course, as cmanos points out ... it IS magic! :D
Kaverael 07-15-05, 02:50 PM	In my opinion when the elemental is bound to the ship, the ship becomes attached to the elemental, like strapping on a backpack. The weight of the ship is miniscule compared to what the elemental can carry. The helmsman then needs to just persuade the elemental to "go over there" or "go up". The elemental wanders around at the helmsman's direction dragging the ship around with it.
Soulkeeper 07-15-05, 02:54 PM	Like a dog sled in essence. ;)