Alignements and Ebberon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignements and Ebberon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Cosmic Goose
04-08-05, 06:19 PM I cant manage to find this in the main book, so maybe you guys can help.

I understand that Alignements in ebberon arent the absolutes they are in other settings. and that its possable to be an evil cleric of a good deity. but is it even written down anywhere a blanket stament on how this fliud view changes the rules? (I.E. are all celestials still good? are all balor evil? can a monk become chaotic? and so forth.)
ieattrollsforbreakfast
04-08-05, 06:40 PM I believe the only specific rule is the alignment of clerics. By the rules, monks must still be lawful, barbarians still chaotic, paladins still lawful good etc.
As for outsiders, I prefer to think of them as above the usual alignment blurring in Eberron. The outsiders are fixed in their alignment, they are the essesse of their homeplane made material and so extremely rarely do they change their alignments (though it does happen, look at the kalashtar).
Zedium
04-08-05, 06:51 PM Although I agree with trolls along the broad lines, I have the following to say about outsiders.

True, they are usually above the alignment blurring of Eberron, but do not expect a Balor to just burst into flames and start smashing you apart, they are cunning fiends and will probably do things which might even seem good at initial sight. Also, even though the outsiders are usually above alignment, altered alignments for them still happen more often in Eberron than other settings it seems, the ECS even mentions a "fallen" CN Eladrin living in Sharn, and there are a few other of these examples (CG Daelkyr or something simular for instance). Another thing to keep in mind is that not all outsiders of the same type live on the same plane and even though they are the same type, they might not see eachothers as such. A Balor will probably laugh at a Dretch and not realise the miserable thing is of the same race. Due to the blurred alignments and this racial view unusual things can happen, at least compared to other settings. Balors and Pitfiends for instance both live in Fernia, and maybe 2 of these fiends could start an alliance seeing eachothers as equals (or better said; challenging opponents), but with different views on things.
Beleriphon
04-09-05, 01:19 AM I think one of the biggest bits of confusion is what the alignment blur means. It doesn't mean that monks can be chaotic, or paladins can be evil. Alignment restrictions still apply, and alignments themselves don't really change, its jus that now any creature could be of any alignment. Basically it makes all creatures with an alignment of "always" have an alignment of "usually", so Balor are Usually Lawful Evil.
polt
04-09-05, 09:20 AM Well, if we take vampires for an example. They are still mostly evil, it's not "There are about 50% good vampires and 50% bad vampires".
Because it is a curse, that changes your personality. However, if one is strong enough, you may be able to withstand the curse and keep your alignment.

As for outsiders, they are above alignments. Demons are evil, because they ARE evil personifizied in some way.
Gurv
04-09-05, 12:01 PM Alignment still exists. The ECS doesn't really go into detail about what blurring alignments means though. For the most part, things are pretty neutral, until pushed one way or another.

Basically, no more assuming that all blink dogs are lawful good or that all trolls are chaotic evil. Mortal creatures develop ethics and morals based on their experinces and personality. A troll brought up by humans isn't drawn to evil like a magnet...he might turn out fine, or he might not. Dragons are a big example, since their alignments vary as much as those of humans.

Outsiders are an exception to this. Although angels may fall and demons may be redeemed, this extremely, extremely rare. For the most part, outsiders are not products of their upbringing (assuming they have an upbringing, which I wouldn't). They came into existance as they are, the product of a plane itself made sentient. They have wholly alien mindsets, and may be entirely incapable of understanding a worldview other than their own.

Another set of exceptions are undead and lycanthropes. Becoming undead is highly corrupting (in some cases, the corruption causes the undeath), and only the strongest wills can resist the evil. So good undead are as rare as good demons. Lycanthropes in Eberron take on the alignment of the strain of 'thropy they get. According the the recent Dragonshard on the subject, each strain corrupts the afflicted with a particular alignment (which varies by strain, not 'thropy type), which might be good or evil. Regardless, being forced into a good alignment can be just as horrible as being forced into an evil one.

So alignment isn't really changed in Eberron. It just reminds the DM that if he wants a pack of evil blink dogs, then he should feel free to create it. Yet another example of the Eberron designers looking at a factor of the game and making it better. I know I've always wanted to attack the party with the blink dogs and gold dragons, but have never been able to come up with a good reason.

The effect this has in class selection is minimal. Monks should still be lawful. Paladins remain lawful good (or use varients found in many sourcebooks). Same for the others. Remember that alignment doesn't dictate what you do; what you do dictates your alignment.

The only major change is clerics, who do not need to remain within a step of their deity's alignment. A cleric does, however, need to remain faithful to his god(s) and to what is taught by his religion. A good idea is to come up with a few rules that a cleric of a particular faith must follow. "Destroy supernatural evil" for the Silver Flame, or "Gather spells and knowledge" for Aureon. As long as a cleric is doing what his faith says is right, he doesn't lose his powers. He doesn't lose his powers due to some arbitrary alignment violation anymore, because clerics believe that the gods define what is good and what is bad, and as long as he is doing as his god says to do, he is doing good.

Hmm. I should print that and read it to my players. They still have an outdated concept of alignment too. And since half of them are CN, they all think they're supposed to act lie madmen...*sigh*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Cosmic Goose 04-08-05, 06:19 PM	I cant manage to find this in the main book, so maybe you guys can help. I understand that Alignements in ebberon arent the absolutes they are in other settings. and that its possable to be an evil cleric of a good deity. but is it even written down anywhere a blanket stament on how this fliud view changes the rules? (I.E. are all celestials still good? are all balor evil? can a monk become chaotic? and so forth.)
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-08-05, 06:40 PM	I believe the only specific rule is the alignment of clerics. By the rules, monks must still be lawful, barbarians still chaotic, paladins still lawful good etc. As for outsiders, I prefer to think of them as above the usual alignment blurring in Eberron. The outsiders are fixed in their alignment, they are the essesse of their homeplane made material and so extremely rarely do they change their alignments (though it does happen, look at the kalashtar).
Zedium 04-08-05, 06:51 PM	Although I agree with trolls along the broad lines, I have the following to say about outsiders. True, they are usually above the alignment blurring of Eberron, but do not expect a Balor to just burst into flames and start smashing you apart, they are cunning fiends and will probably do things which might even seem good at initial sight. Also, even though the outsiders are usually above alignment, altered alignments for them still happen more often in Eberron than other settings it seems, the ECS even mentions a "fallen" CN Eladrin living in Sharn, and there are a few other of these examples (CG Daelkyr or something simular for instance). Another thing to keep in mind is that not all outsiders of the same type live on the same plane and even though they are the same type, they might not see eachothers as such. A Balor will probably laugh at a Dretch and not realise the miserable thing is of the same race. Due to the blurred alignments and this racial view unusual things can happen, at least compared to other settings. Balors and Pitfiends for instance both live in Fernia, and maybe 2 of these fiends could start an alliance seeing eachothers as equals (or better said; challenging opponents), but with different views on things.
Beleriphon 04-09-05, 01:19 AM	I think one of the biggest bits of confusion is what the alignment blur means. It doesn't mean that monks can be chaotic, or paladins can be evil. Alignment restrictions still apply, and alignments themselves don't really change, its jus that now any creature could be of any alignment. Basically it makes all creatures with an alignment of "always" have an alignment of "usually", so Balor are Usually Lawful Evil.
polt 04-09-05, 09:20 AM	Well, if we take vampires for an example. They are still mostly evil, it's not "There are about 50% good vampires and 50% bad vampires". Because it is a curse, that changes your personality. However, if one is strong enough, you may be able to withstand the curse and keep your alignment. As for outsiders, they are above alignments. Demons are evil, because they ARE evil personifizied in some way.
Gurv 04-09-05, 12:01 PM	Alignment still exists. The ECS doesn't really go into detail about what blurring alignments means though. For the most part, things are pretty neutral, until pushed one way or another. Basically, no more assuming that all blink dogs are lawful good or that all trolls are chaotic evil. Mortal creatures develop ethics and morals based on their experinces and personality. A troll brought up by humans isn't drawn to evil like a magnet...he might turn out fine, or he might not. Dragons are a big example, since their alignments vary as much as those of humans. Outsiders are an exception to this. Although angels may fall and demons may be redeemed, this extremely, extremely rare. For the most part, outsiders are not products of their upbringing (assuming they have an upbringing, which I wouldn't). They came into existance as they are, the product of a plane itself made sentient. They have wholly alien mindsets, and may be entirely incapable of understanding a worldview other than their own. Another set of exceptions are undead and lycanthropes. Becoming undead is highly corrupting (in some cases, the corruption causes the undeath), and only the strongest wills can resist the evil. So good undead are as rare as good demons. Lycanthropes in Eberron take on the alignment of the strain of 'thropy they get. According the the recent Dragonshard on the subject, each strain corrupts the afflicted with a particular alignment (which varies by strain, not 'thropy type), which might be good or evil. Regardless, being forced into a good alignment can be just as horrible as being forced into an evil one. So alignment isn't really changed in Eberron. It just reminds the DM that if he wants a pack of evil blink dogs, then he should feel free to create it. Yet another example of the Eberron designers looking at a factor of the game and making it better. I know I've always wanted to attack the party with the blink dogs and gold dragons, but have never been able to come up with a good reason. The effect this has in class selection is minimal. Monks should still be lawful. Paladins remain lawful good (or use varients found in many sourcebooks). Same for the others. Remember that alignment doesn't dictate what you do; what you do dictates your alignment. The only major change is clerics, who do not need to remain within a step of their deity's alignment. A cleric does, however, need to remain faithful to his god(s) and to what is taught by his religion. A good idea is to come up with a few rules that a cleric of a particular faith must follow. "Destroy supernatural evil" for the Silver Flame, or "Gather spells and knowledge" for Aureon. As long as a cleric is doing what his faith says is right, he doesn't lose his powers. He doesn't lose his powers due to some arbitrary alignment violation anymore, because clerics believe that the gods define what is good and what is bad, and as long as he is doing as his god says to do, he is doing good. Hmm. I should print that and read it to my players. They still have an outdated concept of alignment too. And since half of them are CN, they all think they're supposed to act lie madmen...sigh