Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thievingrouge 09-05-05, 01:09 AM	Hello, I have a small perception problem. Right now I'm running an Eberron game, and all ofmy players are doing the "Well, I'm lawful so I cannot steal". now this is bugging me to no end, and I'd like to know how you beat those alignment conceptions down. Thank you.
Charles Phipps 09-05-05, 02:00 AM	At heart, this is all about how you personally deal with your own personal code of being. Generalizations are always going to be lacking but a swift guide that USUALLY works for my players are... Lawful: Lawful characters have a set pattern of behavior that they find extremely important to their lives. If you have a Yakuza or Ninja that is a member of a Guild that has a strong set of traditions and rules or a secret society. That secret society can still be in direct opposition to the rest of humankind. For example, Damien Thorn in the Omen in Lawful Evil but he followed the code of the Devil and that meant everyone else was vulnerable to lies, cheating, stealing, etc. Neutral: Neutral characters basically are people that add the "If" part of their lives. They are people who largely don't get caught up in the minutia of their personal ethical codes but have one or two aspects that they follow. A good example of a person who is neutral to Law and Chaos may boil down his religion to "being good" rather than any specific law of it. They largely deal with law in terms of how it affects them and rarely attempt to assert their independence of it. Chaotic: Chaotic individuals assert their freedom FROM constraints as an important part of their lives. Aleister Crowley may have been highly intelligent, form complicated plans, and been able to interact with society on a basis but his personal viewpoint was essentially that his own self determination and beliefs trumped over what other people tell them....and thus he acts with a deliberate air to shock, horrify, and do whatever he desires. There's a certain amount of arrogance that every chaotic individual says as he forwards his own personal liberty and minds over others. Thus a Chaotic Evil Army can exist even as everyone recognizes it's every man for himself and they are there solely because of the fear and greed that motivates their self interest. One thing that really needs to be emphasized is the fact that people will act in a way that may be contrary to their alignment because of a personal belief or ideal. A lawful good man who always deals fairly with others, behaves openly and honestly, and champions people's rights...may nevertheless have a total hatred of charity. These won't necessarily shift your alignment but they stand out as sore thumbs that make for better RPGing.
Kid SixXx 09-05-05, 01:01 PM	Right now I'm running an Eberron game, and all ofmy players are doing the "Well, I'm lawful so I cannot steal". now this is bugging me to no end, and I'd like to know how you beat those alignment conceptions down.. If you're dealing with a Lawful Good person (especially a paladin or perhaps a cleric), what is wrong with a LG person having a moral dilemma where stealing is concerned? What are the circumstances concerning the theft? I could even see a LN person have a few personal issues concerning stealing. Charlie made some good suggestions, but I think it's perfectly fine for Eberron to have one or two instances where someone's moral compass is always pointed in some direction. After all, you're dealing with heroes: the premier heroes of the planet if you adhere to the premise of the setting. They should show some signs of tendencies towards distinct patterns of heroism or (if you allow it) villainy.
Thievingrouge 09-05-05, 02:11 PM	If you're dealing with a Lawful Good person (especially a paladin or perhaps a cleric), what is wrong with a LG person having a moral dilemma where stealing is concerned? The kalashtar soulknife has a good excuse to be careful (She took the sub levels). But the 1 year old warforged monk, shouldn't bring up that "Because I'm lawful I won't do that" line. The problem is the way they word it.
Kid SixXx 09-05-05, 02:36 PM	The kalashtar soulknife has a good excuse to be careful (She took the sub levels). But the 1 year old warforged monk, shouldn't bring up that "Because I'm lawful I won't do that" line.. Actually, the monk probably should not steal because he's a monk, not necessarily because he is lawful. Such actions are not terribly in line with a monk's discipline. WF are not necessarily "mature" as you suggest, but they are created with pre-determined factors which develop later on. Since the 1st lvl WF monk is pre-disposed to be lawful and disciplined, I could see it making a judgement call concerning stealing and coming to the personal conclusion that stealing is "wrong." As far as the Kalashtar goes, the excuse to be careful is societal responsibility to the rest of Kalashtar society. If the Kalashtar are to be successful in their war against the Dreaming Dark, they are going to need allies, and those allies will be in the form of the rest of Eberron's mortals. Doing something to force distrust of Kalashtar in the eyes of other races is probably a very serious transgression. I'd imagine that the Kalashtar would deal more severely with this individual than established government would.
Salla 09-05-05, 05:10 PM	As I'm interpreting it, the problem is the difference between: "My character's alignment is Lawful, I can't do that." and "I don't do things like that, so my character's alignment is Lawful." Through all of 3rd Edition, alignment has been dynamic, rather than 2e's static-and-if-you-change-you-lose-a-level stunt. This is also why 3e doesn't have any of the 'change your alignment and the gods drop a monster on you' monsters, but that's another rant. Remind them that actions determine alignment, not the other way around. Obviously, a character who is Lawful up to this point in his life should probably be waffling morally with the issue, and should be uncomfortable with it. But there's nothing that says he can't, and there will be no game mechanic penalty for him to do it. Now, with that particular slope started, he may decided to start taking the easy way out and lying, stealing, and cheating his way through Eberron, at which point his alignment should shift. He still isn't exactly PENALIZED, though this may alter his Prestige Class options.
Thievingrouge 09-07-05, 10:02 PM	My problem is not "He won't steal, I want the little guy to steal!!!!!" It's "Why is his reasoning, "Because I'm lawful; I cannot break a law" The kalashtar has an actual alignment restriction for the Kalashtar soulknife substitution levels.
(Psi)SeveredHead 09-07-05, 11:36 PM	See if he'll steal something if he's starving, or if he needs to borrow something and the owner is out-of-town/won't sell it to him. In any event, you could just ask him to word it differently. Instead of mentioning alignment, he could say "I think stealing is wrong". Some characters, like paladins, could even say "it's against my code". Personally I think the alignment restrictions on monks are really silly, but that's another thread for another day.
pseudonym 09-08-05, 09:00 AM	Right now I'm running an Eberron game, and all ofmy players are doing the "Well, I'm lawful so I cannot steal". now this is bugging me to no end Honestly, consider yourself lucky. It has been my experience that players take the anti-hero route, and attempt to rob, swindle or otherwise steal others blind. Your monk PC is lawful, but lawful what? Good or neutral makes a bit of difference. An emphasis on the law part of the alignment could mean that the monk reasons that stealing is against the Code of Galifar, and the norms of society, therefore he won't do it. Devoid of any moral introspection, he may interpret Lawful to mean conforming to the law as written, not stealing or spitting on the sidewalk because that's what is on the books. That would be a rather extreme Lawful Neutral. Consider taking the tack that he should play his character without the constraints of alignment, then as a DM determine what it should be based upon his actions. He seems to be playing his alignment rather than his character. Is this someone new to D&D?
Thievingrouge 09-08-05, 07:02 PM	LN, but that isn't the issue. The issue is the way he justifies it, not "It would be dishonorable, or I don't want the owner to kill me" it is simply "Due to my lawful alignment I am unable to steal, or do anything illegal"
Salla 09-08-05, 07:15 PM	LN, but that isn't the issue. The issue is the way he justifies it, not "It would be dishonorable, or I don't want the owner to kill me" it is simply "Due to my lawful alignment I am unable to steal, or do anything illegal" Yeah. Just remind him that actions determine your alignment, not the other way around.
Chiyo 09-09-05, 10:05 AM	Alignment is just a classification for character behavior, a guideline at best. As a person, you'd never go around saying, I'm neutral good so I really should help that old lady cross the street. Give your player practical examples. If his attitude is to think I'm lawful so I don't think my character would like to steal, that's fine. He's using stats to determine how his character would act. But the character himself isn't thinking in those terms. On the other hand, if your player is determined to have his character not steal, pushing the issue is only gonna make things worse. You're gonna hate it because the player is ruining your planning and you're wasting time and energy on this. And the player is gonna hate it if he feels you're trying to control too much the action of his character. That can't be good for the game. If I were you, unless there is REALLY absolutly no other way, I'd really consider altering events so that they don't require him to steal. Or maybe you can show that the thing you want him to steal was stolen from its rightful owner in the first place so it's not stealing but more recovering stolen goods from thieves. Maybe someone else stole it and tries to get rid of the "hot" item by giving it to the lawful PC who will see taking the item as a way to help instead of stealing. Or the item turns up in someone's bag because someone is trying to incriminate the players for the theft even though they didn't do it. The sky's the limit in what you can twist event into. You're still in control but trying too much to have events unfold exactly the way you planned is sometimes detrimental to everyone's enjoyment I've noticed.
Sereno 09-09-05, 11:13 AM	It sounds like the player WANTS this type of character ... not that they feel arbitrarily straight-jacketed by alignment. I think the best approach would be to encourage the player to stop couching their character's personality in the raw gaming terms. If the player doesn't want to steal ... let them say that, and let it stand. "I will not steal." -- they don't need to add "because I'm lawful". Perhaps encourage them to flesh out their reasons for not stealing: "Theft is an act of cowardice ... the taking of someone else's items simply because you can. I am no coward. I always pay my debts."
damroche 09-12-05, 03:41 PM	I struggled with this myself from a role-playing perspective. In our FR campaign, we tended to fall into the alignment stereotypes but we all really like the flexibility in Eberron. Note: This is a personal list -- what I came up for myself; feel free to use/ignore/modify to suit your needs. Change the words or what they mean to you rather than telling me where I'm wrong, please :) I defined some motivations and ranked those in the priority that they influence my character. You can have your characters rank some/each of these by 1st) Strong Motivation 2nd) Weak Motivation or 3rd No motivation. You can either start with alignment as a guide, choose the appropriate alignment afterward, or even drop alignment. This is the basic list, but I encourage you to add or subtract as fits the situation. Personal • Comfort - Luxury and monetary gain • Survival - self-defense, sustenance • Fear - of death or punishment • Information - the thirst for knowledge • Risk - excitement, adrenaline rush Social • Companionship - sense of belonging, shared interests • Ambition - the search for status or power, competitiveness • Mischief - skirting the rules, making trouble, stirring the pot • Protection - protection of the weak or oppressed, friends • Combat - strife, warfare, combat, bloodlust Societal • Ethical - doing what's right • Legal - what's allowed or disallowed • Policing - stopping others from doing wrong or illegal • Religion what the Church instructs There are more possiblities -- Loyalty, honesty, etc, as fits your style. There is no right or wrong here, this is a guide to understanding a character. On mine, I also put a word or phrase of clarification on some. Summary: Chaotic Good. A little more chaotic than good sometimes but still mostly good. 1. STRONG MOTIVATIONS • Moral - will do things for the "right" reasons • Ambition - hates to lose, revenge • Survival • Companionship 2. WEAK MOTIVATIONS • Mischief - practical joker • Information • Policing - others are free to make their own mistakes • Protection - especially family • Comfort • Fear - of getting caught 3. NON MOTIVATIONS • Legal - What is allowed or disallowed • Religion - The gods want something from us, they can just fly down here and ask • Risk - Xtreme Adventure, 'because it's there' So, from that personal list, I can understand what my character would do in a particular situation. Example: Would he steal a powerful weapon from a madman intent on destruction? Yes. It might be illegal, but that's not an issue for him. He might get caught, which would make him think twice, but it's outweighed by the "greater good" of preventing the madman from using it. - Damroche Gulo Gulo - Shifter Druid-4, deceased Ashoth - Human Warlock-3, currently in Whisper