All fluff, no crunch Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

All fluff, no crunch Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fletch137
02-13-07, 03:10 PM I've been intrigued by Eberron for a while, but can never bring myself to buy any of the books. Whenever I pick one up, I'm flash-blinded by all the weird new classes, races, mechanics, elemental trains, dragon marks, and so on. I'm pretty comfortable in my core 3 D&D rules and aren't looking for such an alien setting for a campaign.

However, every blurb or tidbit I read about Eberron hints at an intriguing history with deeply developed nations, environments, and interractions. Is it possible to filter the Eberron campaign world and run it using just the rules from the core books? How much of the setting would be lost if the Dragon Marks were just cosmetic with no magical powers? How deeply are the shifters tied to the campaign world? If Sharn didn't have a weird connection to the dimension of flight (?) could it still be a city of comparitively mundane towers?

I'm not concerned with it being too watered down. In fact, the world would need a lot of watering down to suit my simple tastes. I'm mostly interested in opinions about whether or not the history, politics, and interractions would be usable if I didn't have electric trains or manifest zones.
DarkWarriorKarg
02-13-07, 03:24 PM Assuming that you are not being a CR5 giant, you are essentially suggesting Eberron without everything that makes it different. (Basically, nothing from the Eberron line of books)

Fluff is supported by crunch, crunch is justified by the fluff (in general. There are errors, of course). All elements affect the world. Using your example, if the dragonmarks were purely cosmetic, then there would be no reason for the Houses, the War of the Mark or the Chamber.

The trains aren't electric, either.

You'd be better off declaring your game world to be a homebrew & simply import what you want, rather than the opposite.
Paranoia833
02-13-07, 03:33 PM I have to admit it does seem like you're asking if it's possible to use Eberron but remove everything that makes it different from reguler D&D. I mean, it's technically possible to rewrite the entire setting to remove everything new, but it would require far more effort than just learning the new rules.

If you don't like the majority of the setting but want to include certain elements of the plot I think you'd find it far easier just to flick through the ECS and import the bits you like into a homebrew setting.
PoeticJustice
02-13-07, 04:03 PM What the OP suggests is absolutely doable. At times transplanted entire portions of the setting (The Eldeen Reaches and The Mournland) to hombrew games without bothering to use any other part. Eberron's greatest strength is its ability to generate adventures, and that has more to do with the locations, organizations, and people running around inside it than with any crunchy bits.

Shifters have always been on the outskirts of society. Replace them with an extended tribe of barbaric humans and you're done.

Don't like Sharn's manifest zone? Fine. Remove the mechnics, keep on the flavor, and say it's due to some deific blessing.

Dragonmark power has always stemmed from the magic items they enable. Removing the ability to scry or whatever doesn't change a thing if you keep the items, so that's fine too.
ChristopherGroves
02-13-07, 04:33 PM You can absolutely run a game with DMG, PHB, MM and the Campaign Setting. Some of the crunch is critically related to the fluff, but you can have fun with different crunchiness.
mhacdebhandia
02-13-07, 04:49 PM However, every blurb or tidbit I read about Eberron hints at an intriguing history with deeply developed nations, environments, and interractions. Is it possible to filter the Eberron campaign world and run it using just the rules from the core books? How much of the setting would be lost if the Dragon Marks were just cosmetic with no magical powers? How deeply are the shifters tied to the campaign world? If Sharn didn't have a weird connection to the dimension of flight (?) could it still be a city of comparitively mundane towers?
If the dragonmarks have no magical powers, then they grant the various houses no special magical advantage in their market. That means you have to propose some other mechanism whereby they gained and, today, maintain their monopolies - not impossible, considering that companies in the real world can dominate their markets, but certainly different.

Shifters have a close connection to a crusade against lycanthropes conducted by a major religion, the Church of the Silver Flame, but I imagine you could substitute "descendants of people who were harassed and killed" for the shifters. It lacks the punch of having a race of "weretouched" still around after nearly all the lycanthropes were wiped out, but it's possible.

Sharn's situation in a manifest zone connected to the plane of Syrania, the Azure Sky doesn't just help its impossibly-tall towers stay up, it also makes it easier for its skysleds and other flying conveyances to operate. You could certainly do without it, and just propose that the people of Sharn use other magics for the purpose.

Basically, what you're suggesting is possible, even if I wouldn't do it myself - but Hell, I see more divergent suggestions on other forums, like on RPGNet where a vocal minority claims "Eberron is excellent, but D&D is a stupid system to use for it" . . . I like all of the extra material and ideas and phenomena in Eberron, but you can replace it with handwaving and core rules ideas.

House Cannith could simply be the best organisation of wizards, some of whom were geniuses who figured out how to produce intelligent golems using ancient artifacts recovered from Xen'drik (no dragonmarks, artificers, or warforged required). Kalashtar could simply be an extended bloodline of humans with psionic talent fleeing persecution by an evil empire, or left out entirely (no kalashtar race, quori, or psionics needed). Taking changelings out of the setting wouldn't alter much, since they don't make a big impact.

To sum up: there's no way in Hell I would play in a game that abandoned all of the cool new ideas in Eberron, both flavoursome and mechanical, but you feel free to go nuts.
Arcane Guyver
02-13-07, 05:09 PM I totally understand why you'd be hesitant to adopt new mechanics, many of which are questionable in balance. Some of the PRCs are ungodly powerful...at least until they are nerfed into uselessness by eratta. Many of the new feats are underwhelming, especially for a setting with feat-hungry races like the shifter and warforged (woohoo, Knight Training!). The warforged alone can cause headaches due to it's unique nature. And then some of the stuff found in expansion books runs the gamut from goofy, useless, wierd, or broken (check out Magic of Eberron for examples of all four).

All that said, I think you'd do well to at least try a game using just the material found in the ECS, then gradually add in flavor elements from the expansion books. You could just tell the players to make characters straight from the PHB, but with Eberron fluff in mind (so you can integrate the Eberron mechanics at your leisure, while still enjoying the history and flavor).
johnkretzer
02-14-07, 10:55 PM If Sharn didn't have a weird connection to the dimension of flight (?) could it still be a city of comparitively mundane towers?

Just a small correction Sharn is connected to the Elemental Plane of Air. You really don't need to change a thing here.

Though overall I wouldn't do it personaly but I see no reason that it couldn't work...
Kreistor2
02-14-07, 11:19 PM However, every blurb or tidbit I read about Eberron hints at an intriguing history with deeply developed nations, environments, and interractions.

I have to disagree with this assessment. Eberron is not deeply developed.

Eberron is presented as an outline. Great swaths of both history and the world are given only loose definition, so that the DM can fill them with whatever he requires.

Outlines for interactions are provided only as loose generalizations. Motivations are often incompletely presented, or are presented as multiple choice.

This makes Eberron one of the most flexible campaign worlds that you will ever participate in. No two Eberrons are the same, and a player from one can enter another person's interpretation and wind up in a radically different campaign, despite being located in exactly the same city.
fletch137
02-15-07, 10:01 AM Eberron is presented as an outline. Great swaths of both history and the world are given only loose definition, so that the DM can fill them with whatever he requires.

Now that's interesting. I'd never heard that before. So far, my Eberron readings have been limited to Eberron-based adventures in Dungeon Magazine and they always seemed to intrinsicly tied to the setting and its history that I got the feeling that there was a lot going on there.

I hear the Player's Guide to Eberron is pretty rules light. Maybe that'd be a good buy for me to evaluate the world as a world rather than as a rules expansion.
OzyBurrfoot
02-15-07, 10:37 AM Yeah the Players Guide is a good buy. In fact if you wanted, you could very easily get by without the ECS if you had that. I would also recommend the Races of Eberron if you want details on the four new races, all of which are very neat IMHO.
PoeticJustice
02-15-07, 12:36 PM Now that's interesting. I'd never heard that before. So far, my Eberron readings have been limited to Eberron-based adventures in Dungeon Magazine and they always seemed to intrinsicly tied to the setting and its history that I got the feeling that there was a lot going on there.

I hear the Player's Guide to Eberron is pretty rules light. Maybe that'd be a good buy for me to evaluate the world as a world rather than as a rules expansion.

As far as rules-light goes, you might want to consider either 5 Nations or the Explorer's Handbook. 5 Nations gives an okay overview of the most important parts of the setting, and Explorer's is actually pretty easy to divorce from Eberron proper without losing the feel. However, Explorer's Handbook deals extensively with bound-elemental vehicles, so it might not be to your taste...
Roland the Crownbreaker
02-15-07, 09:06 PM The Player's Guide is a great book, but don't allow any actual players to read it. There is far too much DM only information in there. (IMO, anything labeled as a player's guide should include zero DM only stuff, but that is just me)

Races of Eberron is good for the crunch of the feats and prestige classes (some of the best I have seen in any D&D book) and for loaning to player unfamiliar with the setting. It makes a pretty decent intro book.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fletch137 02-13-07, 03:10 PM	I've been intrigued by Eberron for a while, but can never bring myself to buy any of the books. Whenever I pick one up, I'm flash-blinded by all the weird new classes, races, mechanics, elemental trains, dragon marks, and so on. I'm pretty comfortable in my core 3 D&D rules and aren't looking for such an alien setting for a campaign. However, every blurb or tidbit I read about Eberron hints at an intriguing history with deeply developed nations, environments, and interractions. Is it possible to filter the Eberron campaign world and run it using just the rules from the core books? How much of the setting would be lost if the Dragon Marks were just cosmetic with no magical powers? How deeply are the shifters tied to the campaign world? If Sharn didn't have a weird connection to the dimension of flight (?) could it still be a city of comparitively mundane towers? I'm not concerned with it being too watered down. In fact, the world would need a lot of watering down to suit my simple tastes. I'm mostly interested in opinions about whether or not the history, politics, and interractions would be usable if I didn't have electric trains or manifest zones.
DarkWarriorKarg 02-13-07, 03:24 PM	Assuming that you are not being a CR5 giant, you are essentially suggesting Eberron without everything that makes it different. (Basically, nothing from the Eberron line of books) Fluff is supported by crunch, crunch is justified by the fluff (in general. There are errors, of course). All elements affect the world. Using your example, if the dragonmarks were purely cosmetic, then there would be no reason for the Houses, the War of the Mark or the Chamber. The trains aren't electric, either. You'd be better off declaring your game world to be a homebrew & simply import what you want, rather than the opposite.
Paranoia833 02-13-07, 03:33 PM	I have to admit it does seem like you're asking if it's possible to use Eberron but remove everything that makes it different from reguler D&D. I mean, it's technically possible to rewrite the entire setting to remove everything new, but it would require far more effort than just learning the new rules. If you don't like the majority of the setting but want to include certain elements of the plot I think you'd find it far easier just to flick through the ECS and import the bits you like into a homebrew setting.
PoeticJustice 02-13-07, 04:03 PM	What the OP suggests is absolutely doable. At times transplanted entire portions of the setting (The Eldeen Reaches and The Mournland) to hombrew games without bothering to use any other part. Eberron's greatest strength is its ability to generate adventures, and that has more to do with the locations, organizations, and people running around inside it than with any crunchy bits. Shifters have always been on the outskirts of society. Replace them with an extended tribe of barbaric humans and you're done. Don't like Sharn's manifest zone? Fine. Remove the mechnics, keep on the flavor, and say it's due to some deific blessing. Dragonmark power has always stemmed from the magic items they enable. Removing the ability to scry or whatever doesn't change a thing if you keep the items, so that's fine too.
ChristopherGroves 02-13-07, 04:33 PM	You can absolutely run a game with DMG, PHB, MM and the Campaign Setting. Some of the crunch is critically related to the fluff, but you can have fun with different crunchiness.
mhacdebhandia 02-13-07, 04:49 PM	However, every blurb or tidbit I read about Eberron hints at an intriguing history with deeply developed nations, environments, and interractions. Is it possible to filter the Eberron campaign world and run it using just the rules from the core books? How much of the setting would be lost if the Dragon Marks were just cosmetic with no magical powers? How deeply are the shifters tied to the campaign world? If Sharn didn't have a weird connection to the dimension of flight (?) could it still be a city of comparitively mundane towers? If the dragonmarks have no magical powers, then they grant the various houses no special magical advantage in their market. That means you have to propose some other mechanism whereby they gained and, today, maintain their monopolies - not impossible, considering that companies in the real world can dominate their markets, but certainly different. Shifters have a close connection to a crusade against lycanthropes conducted by a major religion, the Church of the Silver Flame, but I imagine you could substitute "descendants of people who were harassed and killed" for the shifters. It lacks the punch of having a race of "weretouched" still around after nearly all the lycanthropes were wiped out, but it's possible. Sharn's situation in a manifest zone connected to the plane of Syrania, the Azure Sky doesn't just help its impossibly-tall towers stay up, it also makes it easier for its skysleds and other flying conveyances to operate. You could certainly do without it, and just propose that the people of Sharn use other magics for the purpose. Basically, what you're suggesting is possible, even if I wouldn't do it myself - but Hell, I see more divergent suggestions on other forums, like on RPGNet where a vocal minority claims "Eberron is excellent, but D&D is a stupid system to use for it" . . . I like all of the extra material and ideas and phenomena in Eberron, but you can replace it with handwaving and core rules ideas. House Cannith could simply be the best organisation of wizards, some of whom were geniuses who figured out how to produce intelligent golems using ancient artifacts recovered from Xen'drik (no dragonmarks, artificers, or warforged required). Kalashtar could simply be an extended bloodline of humans with psionic talent fleeing persecution by an evil empire, or left out entirely (no kalashtar race, quori, or psionics needed). Taking changelings out of the setting wouldn't alter much, since they don't make a big impact. To sum up: there's no way in Hell I would play in a game that abandoned all of the cool new ideas in Eberron, both flavoursome and mechanical, but you feel free to go nuts.
Arcane Guyver 02-13-07, 05:09 PM	I totally understand why you'd be hesitant to adopt new mechanics, many of which are questionable in balance. Some of the PRCs are ungodly powerful...at least until they are nerfed into uselessness by eratta. Many of the new feats are underwhelming, especially for a setting with feat-hungry races like the shifter and warforged (woohoo, Knight Training!). The warforged alone can cause headaches due to it's unique nature. And then some of the stuff found in expansion books runs the gamut from goofy, useless, wierd, or broken (check out Magic of Eberron for examples of all four). All that said, I think you'd do well to at least try a game using just the material found in the ECS, then gradually add in flavor elements from the expansion books. You could just tell the players to make characters straight from the PHB, but with Eberron fluff in mind (so you can integrate the Eberron mechanics at your leisure, while still enjoying the history and flavor).
johnkretzer 02-14-07, 10:55 PM	If Sharn didn't have a weird connection to the dimension of flight (?) could it still be a city of comparitively mundane towers? Just a small correction Sharn is connected to the Elemental Plane of Air. You really don't need to change a thing here. Though overall I wouldn't do it personaly but I see no reason that it couldn't work...
Kreistor2 02-14-07, 11:19 PM	However, every blurb or tidbit I read about Eberron hints at an intriguing history with deeply developed nations, environments, and interractions. I have to disagree with this assessment. Eberron is not deeply developed. Eberron is presented as an outline. Great swaths of both history and the world are given only loose definition, so that the DM can fill them with whatever he requires. Outlines for interactions are provided only as loose generalizations. Motivations are often incompletely presented, or are presented as multiple choice. This makes Eberron one of the most flexible campaign worlds that you will ever participate in. No two Eberrons are the same, and a player from one can enter another person's interpretation and wind up in a radically different campaign, despite being located in exactly the same city.
fletch137 02-15-07, 10:01 AM	Eberron is presented as an outline. Great swaths of both history and the world are given only loose definition, so that the DM can fill them with whatever he requires. Now that's interesting. I'd never heard that before. So far, my Eberron readings have been limited to Eberron-based adventures in Dungeon Magazine and they always seemed to intrinsicly tied to the setting and its history that I got the feeling that there was a lot going on there. I hear the Player's Guide to Eberron is pretty rules light. Maybe that'd be a good buy for me to evaluate the world as a world rather than as a rules expansion.
OzyBurrfoot 02-15-07, 10:37 AM	Yeah the Players Guide is a good buy. In fact if you wanted, you could very easily get by without the ECS if you had that. I would also recommend the Races of Eberron if you want details on the four new races, all of which are very neat IMHO.
PoeticJustice 02-15-07, 12:36 PM	Now that's interesting. I'd never heard that before. So far, my Eberron readings have been limited to Eberron-based adventures in Dungeon Magazine and they always seemed to intrinsicly tied to the setting and its history that I got the feeling that there was a lot going on there. I hear the Player's Guide to Eberron is pretty rules light. Maybe that'd be a good buy for me to evaluate the world as a world rather than as a rules expansion. As far as rules-light goes, you might want to consider either 5 Nations or the Explorer's Handbook. 5 Nations gives an okay overview of the most important parts of the setting, and Explorer's is actually pretty easy to divorce from Eberron proper without losing the feel. However, Explorer's Handbook deals extensively with bound-elemental vehicles, so it might not be to your taste...
Roland the Crownbreaker 02-15-07, 09:06 PM	The Player's Guide is a great book, but don't allow any actual players to read it. There is far too much DM only information in there. (IMO, anything labeled as a player's guide should include zero DM only stuff, but that is just me) Races of Eberron is good for the crunch of the feats and prestige classes (some of the best I have seen in any D&D book) and for loaning to player unfamiliar with the setting. It makes a pretty decent intro book.