Alternate Action Points Acquisition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Action Points Acquisition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
perringaiden
07-28-04, 10:47 PM Alternate Action Points Acquisition
This is my personal opinion and is based on my views only. This is not intended as a troll at WotC or the Eberron team, but is a little bit of a rant about taking old ideas and then removing the bits that made them great in the first place.

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Introduction
The Eberron Campaign Setting (ECS) incorporates a new rule called Action Points (APs). APs are designed to allow for drama and climactic action, essentially giving characters a boost when the chips are down (+1d6 to a d20 roll). Action points can also be used to activate Action Point Feats giving a character that special capability once in a while.

However, while I am not particularly perturbed about the way APs are used or what they can be used to accomplish, I am very dissapointed in the method that a character gains APs.

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History
Despite the WotC YesMen?, APs are not a new invention, nor are they something the WotC stables came up with. The original Star Wars RPG, put out by West End Games, had a concept called "Force Points" (FP) and "Character Points" (CP). CPs were are form of experience points and could be used to improve a character, but also could be used to add +1d6 to a roll. FPs were bigger and badder, because they could be used to double the number of d6 you were rolling. (Star Wars RPG was also where the d20 system got DCs from, 'cept instead of 1d20 you rolled a number of d6 and added the result). The description of what they were included for (drama, action, getting a boost) is pretty much the same as the description of why they are good in the ECS. However the way they are given to a player is VERY different, and it is this factor that lets the ECS version down.

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Description of the gaining APs/FPs
Eberron Campaing Setting
Note: I am trying not to reveal anything that is copyright, so specifics are going to be a little vague. Read the book for more info
As a character advances in level, they are provided a number of APs. If they have any left over from the last level, they are lost when the character levels. The number of APs a character gets increases as they go up in level, but its still fixed. During play, when they use an AP it is gone, never to return. Only levelling can regain APs.

Star Wars RPG
Firstly, I'm ignoring Character Points as they are really the form of XP you get in SWRPG.
Secondly, every character starts with 1 Force Point. This FP can be used at any time to get double the dice roll. However, if a player uses that Force Point for something dramatic, or essential to the adventure/story, then they receive that FP back at the end of the session. If they use it at the most important time, like the villan they've been chasing for weeks is about to escape with the superweapon/treasure and the character only gets ONE shot, then the GM can decide to give them back 2 FPs. In this way a character can increase their FP pool for doing heroic things.
If an FP is used for a trivial action or for personal gain, like a gambling roll, then they lose the FP and don't get it back at the end of the session. As an additional bonus, a nice GM can award a FP to a player who showed unequalled heroism even if they didn't use a FP to do it. (Some say this is even more heroic as they didn't use any sort of aid).

FP Use:
[list=a]
Used for important/dramatic activity - Regained at end of session
Used for adventure critical activity - Regained plus an extra gained.
Used for personal gain or trivial action - Lost
Perform a truly heroic action without using a FP - Gain a FP
[/list=a]

In this way, players learn to use the FPs at times which they are most important. They are penalised for greedy and self-serving actions, and rewarded for highly dramatic actions.

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Comparison
APs/FPs are used to promote drama and give the actors (PCs) that bit of extra boost that extras (NPCs) don't have. It is emphasised in many places in both the ECS and the SWRPG that the settings are designed to make the players the main actors/heroes in the adventure/movie. They are the focus, and action points are there to encourage heroism and allow that extra bit of dramatic flair.

Eberron Campaign Setting
This is only done because NPCs don't get APs (...unless they get the heroic feat giving them APs). It does give the PCs an advantage, but there is no penalty for using APs for personal gain, like a pick-pocket roll at the first tavern, and once they are gone they are gone. The only way to gain new action points is to level. While I see why WotC has "wimped-out" and tied it back to levelling, I don't agree. Heroism isn't something that comes better to players at higher levels. In fact, it is usually the opposite, because at higher levels the PCs are more able to tackle bigger challenges. Heroism comes when you face off against a superior foe, and at higher levels your oponents stay on par with you thanks to the CR system (which I beleive is a good thing 75% of the time). A 1st level mage who uses his dagger to attack and distract a goblin is much more heroic than a 10th level wizard, magicked to the teeth, attacking a foe. Nor does it take longer for high level characters to level, again thanks to the CR system. Therefore they don't need more APs to allow them to have them all through the level.
When there is no benefit for using APs in a heroic or dramatic way, then there is no incentive to do so. Without tying their acquisition drama, they don't increase drama, they just give PCs a way of becoming more powerful than NPCs. I used to call this powergaming but maybe I should call it action pointing now.

Star Wars RPG
Tying the gaining of FPs to the way the PC acts and how they used previous FPs is a direct contributor to the dramatic flair that the system had. While the actual SW setting was a bit cliched, the SWRPG system was and still is one of the best I've ever seen. Players put their characters on the line for each other and the plot, knowing that there was a direct benefit. I saw some of the most amazing actions take place, such as ricocheting a blaster bolt down an air-con duct to hit a villan who was about to kill another PC, and all acheived because of FPs. I never saw anyone use a FP for cleaning their weapon or even to kill a single stormtrooper in a normal fight (though I often saw them used to kill 10). Players were always on the lookout for heroic moments, and it soon became second nature to act in the best interest of the story and the party.
Most characters never gained more than 5 or 6 FPs, but even that many when used appropriately meant that amazing and dramatic acts were happening in most sessions.

The Flaw
The only advantage that ECS has over SWRPG with regard to APs and FPs is this:

*DM's aren't required to adjudicate the acquisition of APs*

As far as I can tell, this is the reason why APs are acquired as part of levelling. While I know one of WotC's aims is to make the d20 system easy enough for an intelligent 5-year old to run, I think we need to give the DM a little credit. Those of us who want to incorporate drama and heroism into the game aren't people for whom powergaming is the be-all and end-all of RPGs. An intelligent DM (and we all are ) knows better than to let something like this get out of hand, and has full control over whether a player regains a point or not. The AP method in the ECS is a hardwired system tied to levels, not drama, and so it fails the fundamental reason why I would include APs in the game. Don't get me wrong, I love the Eberron setting, Kudos to Keith Baker, but the action point method really lets it down.
Why, oh why, didn't WotC keep the rest of the FP rules when they bought Star Wars....

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Alternate Method
I am currently preparing to run my first Eberron session, and as such I am chaning how I use Action Points in the game. Here is the propsed method.

[list=a]
Each PC starts at 1st-level with 1 Action Point.
Every time a PC levels, they gain 1 and only 1, Action Point. (My consession to the D&D levelling advance)
PCs do NOT lose APs they previously had, when they level.
APs are expended in the way described in the ECS.
APs will be regained/gained at the end of an session or adventure (Not sure which yet)
I will be using the numbers listed in the ECS as a "maximum" for how many APs a character can have, but this rule will probably never need to come into effect as they shouldn't ever have that many.
[/list=a]
When an AP is used:
[list=a]
If it is for personal gain, for a trivial activity, or is conter-productive to the adventure/story, then it is lost.
If it is used for an activity that is beneficial for the group, is mildly-heroic or dramatic, or is beneficial to progressing the plot/adventure, then it is regained at the end of the session/adventure.
If it is used at a crucial time for an activity that is beneficial for the group, is very-heroic or dramatic, or is crucial to progressing the plot/adventure, then it is regained at the end of the session/adventure, AND an additional AP is gained.
If a PC undertakes an action which is at a crucial time for an activity that is beneficial for the group, is very-heroic or dramatic, or is crucial to progressing the plot/adventure, but an AP is not used, then they may receive an AP at the end of the session/adventure.
[/list=a]
The method allows for people to use action points regularly without running out, and hoarders gain APs very slowly.

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Conclusion
Firstly, make your own conclusions.
A DMs abilities and confidence with their players can make the "hardwired" option attractive. No arguments with players about whether they should have gotten points back or more points. No-one trying to "cheat" by acting heroic.

However...
If you are confident enough that your players will support you and you want to encourage the pulp noir feel of Eberron, then I thoroughly recommend using this method as an alternate way to ensure that your players get into the swing of it too. And from experience with SWRPG, being heroic is not "cheating" to gain APs, because it isn't heroic if there isn't a big risk. It just encourages players to take those risks for the benefit of the drama.

I welcome all constructive comment and criticisim on this topic, and if you can see any issues with what I intend to do, let me know so my players can't use any loopholes....
malisteen
07-28-04, 11:59 PM I like the concept in general, Exaulted has a similar system where the GM awards extra dice to a player's actions when they are accompanied by a particularly choice bit of description.

But I do see one problem with this method. In addition to the standard uses of Action points, characters can have feats that use action points. As a character gains levels they can thus concievably have more and more things they would use action points for, and they would need to spend more action points at a time to take advantage of these things. not only that, but the standard use of action points scales up as well.

To put it simply, a higher level character uses more action points because they have more ways to use them and can put more points into each use.

The ability to keep action points if used in an exciting way makes up for this partially, but not quite enough imo. I would increase the number of action points gained at each level slightly, maybe granting one additional action point at level gain for each three full character levels already possessed, or some such.

The key feature is recycling the points when properly used, otherwise characters could become very stingy with them, hoarding a stockpile from level to level.

Also the tragically titled "extreme explorer" might need some retooling, given how action point dependant he is.
perringaiden
07-29-04, 12:15 AM Originally posted by malisteen
I would increase the number of action points gained at each level slightly, maybe granting one additional action point at level gain for each three full character levels already possessed, or some such.

Good point, possibly an extra boost every few levels would be good, plus I may look at using the AP boosting feats to gain extra AP.

The key feature is recycling the points when properly used, otherwise characters could become very stingy with them, hoarding a stockpile from level to level.

Also the tragically titled "extreme explorer" might need some retooling, given how action point dependant he is. [/B]

Given that in an RP world rather than a combat world, PCs level slower, I would see the ECS method as more likely to create hoarders as they try to ensure that they have some APs for the whole level. (I also intend to slow my players levelling to 5 or 6 adventures per level minimum, more like 1st- and 2nd-ED)

And yes, I'm going to re-tool the EE PrC but I'll have to post that at a later date.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
perringaiden 07-28-04, 10:47 PM	Alternate Action Points Acquisition This is my personal opinion and is based on my views only. This is not intended as a troll at WotC or the Eberron team, but is a little bit of a rant about taking old ideas and then removing the bits that made them great in the first place. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Introduction The Eberron Campaign Setting (ECS) incorporates a new rule called Action Points (APs). APs are designed to allow for drama and climactic action, essentially giving characters a boost when the chips are down (+1d6 to a d20 roll). Action points can also be used to activate Action Point Feats giving a character that special capability once in a while. However, while I am not particularly perturbed about the way APs are used or what they can be used to accomplish, I am very dissapointed in the method that a character gains APs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- History Despite the WotC YesMen?, APs are not a new invention, nor are they something the WotC stables came up with. The original Star Wars RPG, put out by West End Games, had a concept called "Force Points" (FP) and "Character Points" (CP). CPs were are form of experience points and could be used to improve a character, but also could be used to add +1d6 to a roll. FPs were bigger and badder, because they could be used to double the number of d6 you were rolling. (Star Wars RPG was also where the d20 system got DCs from, 'cept instead of 1d20 you rolled a number of d6 and added the result). The description of what they were included for (drama, action, getting a boost) is pretty much the same as the description of why they are good in the ECS. However the way they are given to a player is VERY different, and it is this factor that lets the ECS version down. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Description of the gaining APs/FPs Eberron Campaing Setting Note: I am trying not to reveal anything that is copyright, so specifics are going to be a little vague. Read the book for more info As a character advances in level, they are provided a number of APs. If they have any left over from the last level, they are lost when the character levels. The number of APs a character gets increases as they go up in level, but its still fixed. During play, when they use an AP it is gone, never to return. Only levelling can regain APs. Star Wars RPG Firstly, I'm ignoring Character Points as they are really the form of XP you get in SWRPG. Secondly, every character starts with 1 Force Point. This FP can be used at any time to get double the dice roll. However, if a player uses that Force Point for something dramatic, or essential to the adventure/story, then they receive that FP back at the end of the session. If they use it at the most important time, like the villan they've been chasing for weeks is about to escape with the superweapon/treasure and the character only gets ONE shot, then the GM can decide to give them back 2 FPs. In this way a character can increase their FP pool for doing heroic things. If an FP is used for a trivial action or for personal gain, like a gambling roll, then they lose the FP and don't get it back at the end of the session. As an additional bonus, a nice GM can award a FP to a player who showed unequalled heroism even if they didn't use a FP to do it. (Some say this is even more heroic as they didn't use any sort of aid). FP Use: [list=a] Used for important/dramatic activity - Regained at end of session Used for adventure critical activity - Regained plus an extra gained. Used for personal gain or trivial action - Lost Perform a truly heroic action without using a FP - Gain a FP [/list=a] In this way, players learn to use the FPs at times which they are most important. They are penalised for greedy and self-serving actions, and rewarded for highly dramatic actions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Comparison APs/FPs are used to promote drama and give the actors (PCs) that bit of extra boost that extras (NPCs) don't have. It is emphasised in many places in both the ECS and the SWRPG that the settings are designed to make the players the main actors/heroes in the adventure/movie. They are the focus, and action points are there to encourage heroism and allow that extra bit of dramatic flair. Eberron Campaign Setting This is only done because NPCs don't get APs (...unless they get the heroic feat giving them APs). It does give the PCs an advantage, but there is no penalty for using APs for personal gain, like a pick-pocket roll at the first tavern, and once they are gone they are gone. The only way to gain new action points is to level. While I see why WotC has "wimped-out" and tied it back to levelling, I don't agree. Heroism isn't something that comes better to players at higher levels. In fact, it is usually the opposite, because at higher levels the PCs are more able to tackle bigger challenges. Heroism comes when you face off against a superior foe, and at higher levels your oponents stay on par with you thanks to the CR system (which I beleive is a good thing 75% of the time). A 1st level mage who uses his dagger to attack and distract a goblin is much more heroic than a 10th level wizard, magicked to the teeth, attacking a foe. Nor does it take longer for high level characters to level, again thanks to the CR system. Therefore they don't need more APs to allow them to have them all through the level. When there is no benefit for using APs in a heroic or dramatic way, then there is no incentive to do so. Without tying their acquisition drama, they don't increase drama, they just give PCs a way of becoming more powerful than NPCs. I used to call this powergaming but maybe I should call it action pointing now. Star Wars RPG Tying the gaining of FPs to the way the PC acts and how they used previous FPs is a direct contributor to the dramatic flair that the system had. While the actual SW setting was a bit cliched, the SWRPG system was and still is one of the best I've ever seen. Players put their characters on the line for each other and the plot, knowing that there was a direct benefit. I saw some of the most amazing actions take place, such as ricocheting a blaster bolt down an air-con duct to hit a villan who was about to kill another PC, and all acheived because of FPs. I never saw anyone use a FP for cleaning their weapon or even to kill a single stormtrooper in a normal fight (though I often saw them used to kill 10). Players were always on the lookout for heroic moments, and it soon became second nature to act in the best interest of the story and the party. Most characters never gained more than 5 or 6 FPs, but even that many when used appropriately meant that amazing and dramatic acts were happening in most sessions. The Flaw The only advantage that ECS has over SWRPG with regard to APs and FPs is this: DM's aren't required to adjudicate the acquisition of APs As far as I can tell, this is the reason why APs are acquired as part of levelling. While I know one of WotC's aims is to make the d20 system easy enough for an intelligent 5-year old to run, I think we need to give the DM a little credit. Those of us who want to incorporate drama and heroism into the game aren't people for whom powergaming is the be-all and end-all of RPGs. An intelligent DM (and we all are ) knows better than to let something like this get out of hand, and has full control over whether a player regains a point or not. The AP method in the ECS is a hardwired system tied to levels, not drama, and so it fails the fundamental reason why I would include APs in the game. Don't get me wrong, I love the Eberron setting, Kudos to Keith Baker, but the action point method really lets it down. Why, oh why, didn't WotC keep the rest of the FP rules when they bought Star Wars.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alternate Method I am currently preparing to run my first Eberron session, and as such I am chaning how I use Action Points in the game. Here is the propsed method. [list=a] Each PC starts at 1st-level with 1 Action Point. Every time a PC levels, they gain 1 and only 1, Action Point. (My consession to the D&D levelling advance) PCs do NOT lose APs they previously had, when they level. APs are expended in the way described in the ECS. APs will be regained/gained at the end of an session or adventure (Not sure which yet) I will be using the numbers listed in the ECS as a "maximum" for how many APs a character can have, but this rule will probably never need to come into effect as they shouldn't ever have that many. [/list=a] When an AP is used: [list=a] If it is for personal gain, for a trivial activity, or is conter-productive to the adventure/story, then it is lost. If it is used for an activity that is beneficial for the group, is mildly-heroic or dramatic, or is beneficial to progressing the plot/adventure, then it is regained at the end of the session/adventure. If it is used at a crucial time for an activity that is beneficial for the group, is very-heroic or dramatic, or is crucial to progressing the plot/adventure, then it is regained at the end of the session/adventure, AND an additional AP is gained. If a PC undertakes an action which is at a crucial time for an activity that is beneficial for the group, is very-heroic or dramatic, or is crucial to progressing the plot/adventure, but an AP is not used, then they may receive an AP at the end of the session/adventure. [/list=a] The method allows for people to use action points regularly without running out, and hoarders gain APs very slowly. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conclusion Firstly, make your own conclusions. A DMs abilities and confidence with their players can make the "hardwired" option attractive. No arguments with players about whether they should have gotten points back or more points. No-one trying to "cheat" by acting heroic. However... If you are confident enough that your players will support you and you want to encourage the pulp noir feel of Eberron, then I thoroughly recommend using this method as an alternate way to ensure that your players get into the swing of it too. And from experience with SWRPG, being heroic is not "cheating" to gain APs, because it isn't heroic if there isn't a big risk. It just encourages players to take those risks for the benefit of the drama. I welcome all constructive comment and criticisim on this topic, and if you can see any issues with what I intend to do, let me know so my players can't use any loopholes....
malisteen 07-28-04, 11:59 PM	I like the concept in general, Exaulted has a similar system where the GM awards extra dice to a player's actions when they are accompanied by a particularly choice bit of description. But I do see one problem with this method. In addition to the standard uses of Action points, characters can have feats that use action points. As a character gains levels they can thus concievably have more and more things they would use action points for, and they would need to spend more action points at a time to take advantage of these things. not only that, but the standard use of action points scales up as well. To put it simply, a higher level character uses more action points because they have more ways to use them and can put more points into each use. The ability to keep action points if used in an exciting way makes up for this partially, but not quite enough imo. I would increase the number of action points gained at each level slightly, maybe granting one additional action point at level gain for each three full character levels already possessed, or some such. The key feature is recycling the points when properly used, otherwise characters could become very stingy with them, hoarding a stockpile from level to level. Also the tragically titled "extreme explorer" might need some retooling, given how action point dependant he is.
perringaiden 07-29-04, 12:15 AM	Originally posted by malisteen I would increase the number of action points gained at each level slightly, maybe granting one additional action point at level gain for each three full character levels already possessed, or some such. Good point, possibly an extra boost every few levels would be good, plus I may look at using the AP boosting feats to gain extra AP. The key feature is recycling the points when properly used, otherwise characters could become very stingy with them, hoarding a stockpile from level to level. Also the tragically titled "extreme explorer" might need some retooling, given how action point dependant he is. [/B] Given that in an RP world rather than a combat world, PCs level slower, I would see the ECS method as more likely to create hoarders as they try to ensure that they have some APs for the whole level. (I also intend to slow my players levelling to 5 or 6 adventures per level minimum, more like 1st- and 2nd-ED) And yes, I'm going to re-tool the EE PrC but I'll have to post that at a later date.