Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MavrickWeirdo 04-03-05, 01:19 AM	In Eberron... Elves worship their Ancestors Changelings were abandoned by their Ancestors Shifters betrayed their Ancestors Warforged don't have Ancestors Kalashtar are their Ancestors
polt 04-03-05, 04:28 AM	It wasn't many shifters who betrayed the lycanthropes. And where does it say that changelings were abandoned by their Ancestors?
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-03-05, 09:26 AM	It wasn't many shifters who betrayed the lycanthropes. And where does it say that changelings were abandoned by their Ancestors? If anything, the changelings are embraced by their ancestors, just look at the Tyrants.
polt 04-03-05, 10:09 AM	If anything, the changelings are embraced by their ancestors, just look at the Tyrants. Exactly.
Contrast 04-03-05, 11:04 AM	The Warforged Titans and Chargers could be considered ancestors to the current model. And what is the point of this thread?
polt 04-03-05, 11:06 AM	And we know that there were some ancient Xen'Drik warforged-like creatures.
MavrickWeirdo 04-03-05, 12:58 PM	If anything, the changelings are embraced by their ancestors, just look at the Tyrants. Who?
MavrickWeirdo 04-03-05, 12:59 PM	The Warforged Titans and Chargers could be considered ancestors to the current model. Is the "Model T" an ancestor of the "Honda Civic"? And what is the point of this thread? Just looking at themes in Eberron.
Hellcow 04-03-05, 01:35 PM	Interesting observations! Though just as a note... Shifters betrayed their Ancestors The belief that shifters are the result of human-lycanthrope pairing is not universal; those shifters who sided with the Silver Flame in the conflict may have believed otherwise. And even if you DO believe it, by siding with the Silver Flame (humans), you're allying with one of your ancestors... so you're helping Mommy fight Daddy. And hey, Daddy often beats you when he's been drinking... which is to say, an afflicted shifter werewolf takes pleasure in murdering other shifters. Fighting that particular werewolf isn't betrayal - it's self-defense.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-03-05, 01:45 PM	Who? The Tyrants are a criminal organisation in Sharn lead by doppelgangers. The vast majority of its members are changelings.
MavrickWeirdo 04-03-05, 05:27 PM	A list such as this one is typically a mneumonic deivce to categorize, (i.e. sterotype) differences between groups. It is not ment to be interpreted as literal truth. It is meant to highlight common themes. Interesting observations! Though just as a note... The belief that shifters are the result of human-lycanthrope pairing is not universal; those shifters who sided with the Silver Flame in the conflict may have believed otherwise. And even if you DO believe it, by siding with the Silver Flame (humans), you're allying with one of your ancestors... so you're helping Mommy fight Daddy. And hey, Daddy often beats you when he's been drinking... which is to say, an afflicted shifter werewolf takes pleasure in murdering other shifters. Fighting that particular werewolf isn't betrayal - it's self-defense. A am aware that it would be more accurate to say that... "When the Church of the Silver Flame (which not all humans belong to, and where not all members are human) decared a holy war on lycanthropes over one hundred and fifty years ago, some (but not all) shifters ended up supporting one side of their heritage over the other." but it's not as Concise. ;) That being said, betrayal is probably a significant theme in shifter culture. When creating a shifter-character one question a player could ask themselves is, "Which side did my family take in that '(un)holy war'?" Even if your family found a way to "betray" neither your human nor your lycanthropes heritage, it is a significant question. And where does it say that changelings were abandoned by their Ancestors? Likewise changelings are the product of 2 heritages (I never said which ancestors abandoned them. :P) I am willing to admit that it is possible that... "Once there was a mommy human and a daddy doppelganger, and they loved each other very much, so they had a baby changeling, and they all lived happily ever after." however there are probably a good number of changelings who feel rejected/abandoned by either doppelgangers or humans. part of the reason I wrote this was that I was running out of ideas for the other races. Stuff like... Halflings preserve the ways of their Ancestors (again not an absolute truth.) or Goblins hunger for the glory of their Ancestors.
polt 04-03-05, 05:30 PM	I don't think halflings has any special ties to their anscestors, where do you see that? And i think there might be some changelings who might feel something for their doppleganger or human anscestors, but not many. So i really don't think you could state that "changelings were left behind by there anscestors"
Hellcow 04-03-05, 05:52 PM	A list such as this one is typically a mneumonic deivce to categorize, (i.e. sterotype) differences between groups. It is not ment to be interpreted as literal truth. It is meant to highlight common themes. Certainly. And it's an interesting observation. Even if your family found a way to "betray" neither your human nor your lycanthropes heritage, it is a significant question. It depends on the shifter tribe. For many, certainly. But as I said, there are shifters who believe that the human-lycanthrope heritage tale is a myth; others believe that lycanthropes were descended from shifters, and not the other way around (lycanthropes have enhanced shifter abilities, as opposed to shifters having stunted lycanthropic abilities - a chicken and egg situation). Even if you believe the common tale, the evolution of the shifter race was a long process; they are more of a unique race than half-orcs or half-elves, and if a human and lycanthrope have a child, it won't be a shifter (this is one reason why the shifters have a fairly uniform appearance instead of a close resemblance to a particular animal). Furthermore, the lycanthropes were responsible for many shifter deaths in the Purge. Aside from homicidal lycanthropes who enjoyed killing shifters as much as humans, a number of wererats and other lycanthrope schemers worked to decieve the Silver Flame into believing the shifters posed a threat. So while shifters died at the hands of the Silver Flame, it was often the direct result of the schemes or actions of evil lycanthropes. This are certainly antagonistic feelings between many Eldeen shifters and the Silver Flame - but it's not as simple as "Flame bad, werewolves good." More often than not, those shifters could say that THEY were betrayed by both their parents. As I've said many times before, the purge didn't start in a vacuum. The Silver Flame didn't wake up one day and say "Time to kill the lycanthropes!" It was a response to a series of very unpleasant (unfortunate, even) events. Those in the church who now regret the Purge feel that they could have done more to protect the innocents killed in the Purge (primarily shifters) - but there's few who feel that it was a completely unnecessary act. Like many things in Eberron, there's no good answer; innocents were killed, but more would have died if no action was taken at all.
MavrickWeirdo 04-03-05, 05:56 PM	I don't think halflings has any special ties to their anscestors, where do you see that? ECS page 202 "The halfling tribes of the Talenta Plains struggle to keep their ancient traditions and heritage alive despite the lure of the comforts and advances of the Five Nations." And i think there might be some changelings who might feel something for their doppleganger or human anscestors, but not many. So i really don't think you could state that "changelings were left behind by there anscestors" I'm not sure what you mean by "feel something". It could mean love, hate, pity, jealousy all are "something". The 4 possible situations are 1. Changeling was accepted/loved/nurtured by both their human and shapechanger kin. 2. Changeling was accepted/loved/nurtured by their shapechanger kin, but rejected/abandoned by their human kin. 3. Changeling was accepted/loved/nurtured by their human kin, but rejected/abandoned by their shapechanger kin. 4. Changeling was rejected/abandoned by both their human and shapechanger kin. I personally feel that those changelings who experienced #1 are in the minority. (Even if both your parents were changelings, you still have "human kin", and "doppleganger kin". If you do not have a good relationship with them, or don't even know who they are, then you will probably feel abandoned.)
polt 04-03-05, 06:01 PM	ECS page 202 "The halfling tribes of the Talenta Plains struggle to keep their ancient traditions and heritage alive despite the lure of the comforts and advances of the Five Nations." That's not their anscestors they are worshipping. That's tradition. LIke dinoriding for example. Or it could be a tradition that young halflings had to find their own dinosaur egg, and then raise the dinosaur themself or something. That just means that they won't let the Galifar customs take ower, their own holy days for examplel. I personally feel that those changelings who experienced #1 are in the minority. (Even if both your parents were changelings, you still have "human kin", and "doppleganger kin". If you do not have a good relationship with them, or don't even know who they are, then you will probably feel abandoned.) Well, Changelings are no longer children of a doppelganger and a human. They are children of other changelings. The race breeds true, and it's probably many, many, many years ago since a doppelganger and a human last had a child. It's like shifters, they are their own race. They have evolved beyond just being a cross-breed.
Hellcow 04-03-05, 06:07 PM	it's probably many, many, many years ago since a doppelganger and a human last had a child. Actually, this is untrue. While the majority of changelings prefer to mate with their own kind, you do get crossbreeding (which remains one of the sources of the name "changeling"). This is discussed in Races of Eberron.
polt 04-03-05, 06:11 PM	Then gimme the damn book so i can speak true :(
MavrickWeirdo 04-03-05, 06:32 PM	That's not their anscestors they are worshipping. That's tradition. LIke dinoriding for example. Or it could be a tradition that young halflings had to find their own dinosaur egg, and then raise the dinosaur themself or something. I never said they worshiped ancestors I said they preserve the ways of their Ancestors. I intended the word "ways" to act as a synonym of tradition. It depends on the shifter tribe. For many, certainly. But as I said, there are shifters who believe that the human-lycanthrope heritage tale is a myth; others believe that lycanthropes were descended from shifters, and not the other way around (lycanthropes have enhanced shifter abilities, as opposed to shifters having stunted lycanthropic abilities - a chicken and egg situation). Even if you believe the common tale, the evolution of the shifter race was a long process; they are more of a unique race than half-orcs or half-elves, and if a human and lycanthrope have a child, it won't be a shifter (this is one reason why the shifters have a fairly uniform appearance instead of a close resemblance to a particular animal). Furthermore, the lycanthropes were responsible for many shifter deaths in the Purge. Aside from homicidal lycanthropes who enjoyed killing shifters as much as humans, a number of wererats and other lycanthrope schemers worked to decieve the Silver Flame into believing the shifters posed a threat. So while shifters died at the hands of the Silver Flame, it was often the direct result of the schemes or actions of evil lycanthropes. This are certainly antagonistic feelings between many Eldeen shifters and the Silver Flame - but it's not as simple as "Flame bad, werewolves good." More often than not, those shifters could say that THEY were betrayed by both their parents. As I've said many times before, the purge didn't start in a vacuum. The Silver Flame didn't wake up one day and say "Time to kill the lycanthropes!" It was a response to a series of very unpleasant (unfortunate, even) events. Those in the church who now regret the Purge feel that they could have done more to protect the innocents killed in the Purge (primarily shifters) - but there's few who feel that it was a completely unnecessary act. Like many things in Eberron, there's no good answer; innocents were killed, but more would have died if no action was taken at all. Don't you have a novel to work on, or something? ;) jk Thanks for the additional background on shifters. I hadn't heard the "shifters came first" theory before, but I like having more than one theory of how thing came to be.
Hellcow 04-03-05, 06:40 PM	Then gimme the damn book so i can speak true :( I could if I would, but it's coming out soon.
RamblingScribe 04-03-05, 07:49 PM	This thread has made me so happy! I can't count the number of times I've told my players 'Anything you read in the ECS might be true, but might not. A lot of it is popular opinion.' One specific example I always use is the idea that the shifters are descendants of werewolves. I tell them that most people believe it's true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and frankly I'll probably never decide if it is or not in my campaign. Just like the existance of the gods. I'm just so glad to hear Hellcow say the same thing! Craig Shackleton, The Rambling Scribe
InfinityStar8 04-03-05, 10:14 PM	I could if I would, but it's coming out soon. Do you have a copy of the book? If so, how does it look to you and how do you liek all the stuff in it? Still holding true enough to Eberron for you?