<RANT> Please Explain these Useless Maps [Archive] - Wizards Community

<RANT> Please Explain these Useless Maps [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Taurren
06-30-04, 09:59 AM /Rant On

For well over a year now Eberron has been greatly anticipated by gamers and hyped continually by WotC.

When the book finally came out, the over-all reaction from those who have bought the book has been quite favorable and many threads on many boards have talked about the great job that was done and the fresh new attitude & idea’s that it has brought.

BUT..

There is an obvious fly in the soup that we have just bought, and I just can't swallow it. That fly is the lack of one of the most basic of gaming tools for a campaign setting … a usable map.

Let’s see what ECS does provide for we gamers that use maps to help learn about the land and plan their adventures & campaigns
-Both the front and back inside covers have the same bland map of the 4 main continents, and then there is a 3rd copy of the same 2 page map on pgs 214-215. Why 3 copies of the same basic map?
-The main map of Khorvaire on pg 135 has no reference points aside from general locations of the major regions.
-Even worse is that some of the "detailed" nation maps are missing the names of important geographic locations such as mountain ranges, rivers and railways.
- And now we hear that the “ Khorvaire Map” which we were anticipating in the upcoming Dungeon is just a re-print of the same lame map on pg 135 of the ECS.

The Forgotten Realms Campaign book did it right, with a beautiful map included and then additional maps in 4 straight Dragon mags.

So far with ECS we get 3 copies of same blank continent map, a 1 pg map with only the names of regions, detailed maps of regions that are missing MANY pieces of information, and now a brand new map in Dungeon that is a larger version of the same useless nation map.

Maps … like history, races, classes, PrC’s, spells and monsters are pivotal parts of any campaign.

In the opinion of many gamers, this part of the Eberron Campaign is lacking and almost useless.

Can anyone explain why you wouldn’t include a useful map in such an expensive and detailed setting?

So Keith ... any plans to get the fly out of our soup?

/Rant Off
Ashrem Bayle
06-30-04, 10:16 AM Normally I don't respond to rants. But you are right.....

It's simply inexcusable, and the "map" they released in Dungeon just adds insult to injury.

This has certainly been Eberron's greatest weakness. I can't even begin to guess what they were thinking.
Kravell
06-30-04, 10:17 AM I'm not Keith, but I would like to point out that the "useless maps" at the beginning and end of the book are not part of the page count. Rather than put in blank pages, they reprinted the map. So we didn't pay for those maps.

I haven't got my new Dungeon but I hadn't heard the map in it would be the mostly blank map. When I get a copy or read a post from someone who does then I'll know for sure.

I think Wizards is getting away from maps. A bummer, but certainly out of Keith's control.
Ashrem Bayle
06-30-04, 10:20 AM Originally posted by Kravell
I'm not Keith, but I would like to point out that the "useless maps" at the beginning and end of the book are not part of the page count. Rather than put in blank pages, they reprinted the map. So we didn't pay for those maps.

I haven't got my new Dungeon but I hadn't heard the map in it would be the mostly blank map. When I get a copy or read a post from someone who does then I'll know for sure.

I think Wizards is getting away from maps. A bummer, but certainly out of Keith's control.

Obviously this isn't Keith's faught. I know I certainly don't blame him. And you are right, the maps at the beginning and end aren't part of the page count, but we did pay for them.

I was cool with the CS not having a big detailed map. I shrugged and said I could waite till it came out in Dungeon. And now this.

If you are looking for a post about it, a guy over at ENWorld got his issue and he confirmed that it's the same map that can be found on WOTC's website. Just the names of nations...

Not even the borders are outlined...:rolleyes:
elaith19
06-30-04, 10:27 AM As specified in my thread, I just learned that the map contained in Dungeon #113 only bears the name of countries AND THAT'S IT.

That's still WAY short of the mark for a quality setting like Eberron. I just hope this situation will be remedied soon.
sh0
06-30-04, 10:31 AM I hope the editors at WotC see this thread and do something to correct it. Eberron is a wonderful setting and Keith did an amazing job.

It is just unexecusable for WotC to charge $40 list price for this book and not include a nice detailed map like they did with the FRCS.

Shame, shame WotC!

sh0

:mad:
gzombie
06-30-04, 11:10 AM Call customer service and inform them your book didn't come with the 'world map'. Then you can feign surprise and shock when they tell you it's not an error. Probably the only way WotC going to get it that they should have included a world map.
Sebby
06-30-04, 11:36 AM (edit: I was writing this at the same time as gzombie, I guess)

Hi,

When I bought the Dragonlance CS, I was annoyed at the lack of a map. And I saw enough ranting about that that I was sure WotC would not do that again.

How naive of me. :nonono:

Then Eberron came out and as I was eagerly expecting it, I bought it even if there was no map. I was hoping that the upcoming Dungeon map would be it. But now I hear it won't.

Ranting on a board, although very satisfying, just does not work. So here is what we all should do: as long as we are taking the time to write here, why not also send a copy to Customer Service as well? Here is the link:

WotC Customer Service (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=company/feedbackform)

Do not be insulting, do not flame. Just tell them you disaprove of their decision not to include a map, that you want one and are ready to buy a product that includes that kind of map.

That, they might understand.
JohnnyONeal
06-30-04, 11:48 AM Okay, three things:

1. It's not cool that there's no map. Let's put it in perspective -- it's not the end of the world. But it's something that ought to be remedied.

2. Hey Wizards, one easy way to fix this is by selling a more detailed map, perhaps with a DM screen and/or adventure.

3. In the meantime, the fans can do something about this. We've got a big blank map in high-quality image format. We've got all the pieces... it's just a matter of putting those pieces together. If anyone wants to step up to take this on as a project, I'd gladly help out and host it as a download on the Eberron Journal.

Reply or PM if you'd like to help.
Taurren
06-30-04, 01:17 PM Johnny,

I know the lack of accurate and usable maps is not the end of the world. However, the lack anything close to a usable map is a real irritant and IMO an indication that WotC is not connected to what players and GM's want in a new setting.

WotC somehow believes that new players to Eberron want and need 3 copies of the same blank continent map, as well as inaccurate and incomplete regional maps.

Why they believe this I do not know.

As I said before the setting is a good one, possibly even a great one, despite the absolutely poor decision to not include any good mapping tools for players and GM's to use.
Taigis
06-30-04, 02:19 PM Johnny, I tried to PM you and it said your box was full.

Taigis
JohnnyONeal
06-30-04, 02:55 PM I know the lack of accurate and usable maps is not the end of the world. However, the lack anything close to a usable map is a real irritant and IMO an indication that WotC is not connected to what players and GM's want in a new setting.Of course, and I didn't mean to suggest that you were being unreasonable. I definitely agree with you on this.Johnny, I tried to PM you and it said your box was full.Sorry! Fixed.
scwolf
06-30-04, 03:13 PM Originally posted by Sebby
Ranting on a board, although very satisfying, just does not work. So here is what we all should do: as long as we are taking the time to write here, why not also send a copy to Customer Service as well? Here is the link:

WotC Customer Service (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=company/feedbackform)

Do not be insulting, do not flame. Just tell them you disaprove of their decision not to include a map, that you want one and are ready to buy a product that includes that kind of map.

That, they might understand.

Another avenue of reply would be to use the little Business Mail Reply Card from the back of the book. Sure, most of it is crammed with demographics-data gathering questions, but you can cram some comments into the margins. (Do you intend to buy another campaign setting in the next year? "If it has good maps")

If you don't mind using a stamp of your own, write WotC a letter and fill out the reply card, put them both in an envelope, and send it to the address listed on the reply card. By including the reply card, it shows "Yes, I am a paying consumer of your books" and the letter lets you explain your position that you might not be buying future product, without coming across as snide as little margin comments on the card might. (Don't be tempted to staple or attach something to the business mail reply card itself and try to send it on WotC's pre-paid postage, as the Post Office is a little touchy about such things, and may just throw it out instead of delivering it).
Axys
06-30-04, 03:15 PM :devil::devil: Well, let's stop for a moment and try to look at this from a completely new perspective.....What if WotC and KB/HellCow left most of the regional things blank for a reason? Wouldn't that allow DM's to 'flesh' out Eberron to thier more desired likings?????? Instead of having a mountain of material that already exists, what if they decided that leaving the DM more options and creative control within the setting is the direction that they are taking? I personally enjoy that fact that I have the ability to change things and add them on my whim as a DM and do not have everything set in stone as I did with FR or other campaign settings. Instead of pouring through mountains of FAQ and materials, I can just say....oh, that's _______ river or something else....then all it takes is scribbling that down in my notebook to save it for later......

:devil::devil: Open up your minds as DMs, let the creativity flow....dont go about ranting that you got cheated by not having detailed maps....pull up some grey matter and let the imagination flow.
not_human
06-30-04, 03:17 PM I'll play the contrarian here. I think the sparse and vague maps are a great thing. If I wanted everything detailed, everything spelled out, and everything locked in canonical stone, I'd play Forgotten Realms. I look to a setting book for help in building a campaign, but some of the work I want to do myself.

I don't want some uppity player telling me where such and such dungeon actually is, or how far from village X the lightning rail line actually runs. I know exactly where it is, because I put it there. Wizards is even more accomodating to my desires, and have put up a gallery of totally blank maps on the Eberron site, which I think rocks. Want to put Sharn on the other side of the bay- have at it. Need a Greyjoy principality in Lhazaar- check. Want to change the scale from the mildly absurd rulers presented in the setting book- cut and snip.

Eberron, being brand new, and comprising only one book so far, is empty. And there is a virtue in that.
Sebby
06-30-04, 03:36 PM True enough,

But the roads and locations are already marked on separate maps in the book. So why not provide a whole map?

Plus, nothing would have prevented them from publishing blanks like they did even if they had provided a complete continental map.

I actually like to have some work done for me. That is why I pay for such books. It leaves me more time for adventure design.

Cheers!
Taigis
06-30-04, 03:39 PM Originally posted by Axys
:devil::devil: Well, let's stop for a moment and try to look at this from a completely new perspective.....What if WotC and KB/HellCow left most of the regional things blank for a reason? Wouldn't that allow DM's to 'flesh' out Eberron to thier more desired likings?????? Instead of having a mountain of material that already exists, what if they decided that leaving the DM more options and creative control within the setting is the direction that they are taking? I personally enjoy that fact that I have the ability to change things and add them on my whim as a DM and do not have everything set in stone as I did with FR or other campaign settings. Instead of pouring through mountains of FAQ and materials, I can just say....oh, that's _______ river or something else....then all it takes is scribbling that down in my notebook to save it for later......

:

Most peoples complaints about the maps in the ECSB revolve around the zoomed in portions in the country sections. It isn't so much that theres this big blank map in the book. Its the fact that when they did add details to the maps in the country sections, there are numerous errors between the maps. Roads present on one map that leave a country going into another. And when you go to that countries map, the road isn't there. If they failed to label this mountain or that river, it wouldn't be such a problem. However, when a location is labelled on one map, but that label isn't on another map involving the same location, it makes it less user friendly. (Example: Lake Galifar. Labeled in the Eldeen Reaches, but not labeled in Aundair.)

Yes, I can still use the maps and get a lot of information out of them. Yes I can come up with some creative instory reason as to why the map is inaccurate. However, out of story, it just looks like sloppy cartography. The country maps appear to have been created separately, notes indicating that a road needs to exit this city and go west. But when that same road is drawn on a different map, it is placed differently. If the country maps had been created from a single large map, these errors would have been reduced if not eliminated.

So claiming that the absence of detail on a small scale map gives the DM freedom to add detail is true only if you ignore the large scale maps in the country sections with the higher level of detail. Details which don't always match up between sections.

I would have liked an overall detailed map. Does its absence really hinder my game, no not really. They've provided detailed maps in another form. The errors in the details do provide some problems, though.

Taigis
scwolf
06-30-04, 11:57 PM Originally posted by Taigis
I would have liked an overall detailed map. Does its absence really hinder my game, no not really. They've provided detailed maps in another form. The errors in the details do provide some problems, though.

It reminds me of the summer that a Shadowrun gaming buddy of mine created a large-scale detailed map of the greater Seattle Metroplex out of the maps in the 1st Edition Shadowrun Seattle Sourcebook. NONE of the maps were to the same scale, or the same rotational alignment. And seeing as this was '92, access to flatbed scanners and image manipulation software was a bit out of the league of a high school sophmore, so he had to do his image scaling by photocopier (tricky at best, because at the time, we had no idea which images needed to be enlarged, and which needed to be reduced to make them fit) and cut and paste each map section on posterboard like some demented jigsaw puzzle.

The end result was impressive, but truth be told, we could have spent that time actually gaming. :rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Taurren 06-30-04, 09:59 AM	/Rant On For well over a year now Eberron has been greatly anticipated by gamers and hyped continually by WotC. When the book finally came out, the over-all reaction from those who have bought the book has been quite favorable and many threads on many boards have talked about the great job that was done and the fresh new attitude & idea’s that it has brought. BUT.. There is an obvious fly in the soup that we have just bought, and I just can't swallow it. That fly is the lack of one of the most basic of gaming tools for a campaign setting … a usable map. Let’s see what ECS does provide for we gamers that use maps to help learn about the land and plan their adventures & campaigns -Both the front and back inside covers have the same bland map of the 4 main continents, and then there is a 3rd copy of the same 2 page map on pgs 214-215. Why 3 copies of the same basic map? -The main map of Khorvaire on pg 135 has no reference points aside from general locations of the major regions. -Even worse is that some of the "detailed" nation maps are missing the names of important geographic locations such as mountain ranges, rivers and railways. - And now we hear that the “ Khorvaire Map” which we were anticipating in the upcoming Dungeon is just a re-print of the same lame map on pg 135 of the ECS. The Forgotten Realms Campaign book did it right, with a beautiful map included and then additional maps in 4 straight Dragon mags. So far with ECS we get 3 copies of same blank continent map, a 1 pg map with only the names of regions, detailed maps of regions that are missing MANY pieces of information, and now a brand new map in Dungeon that is a larger version of the same useless nation map. Maps … like history, races, classes, PrC’s, spells and monsters are pivotal parts of any campaign. In the opinion of many gamers, this part of the Eberron Campaign is lacking and almost useless. Can anyone explain why you wouldn’t include a useful map in such an expensive and detailed setting? So Keith ... any plans to get the fly out of our soup? /Rant Off
Ashrem Bayle 06-30-04, 10:16 AM	Normally I don't respond to rants. But you are right..... It's simply inexcusable, and the "map" they released in Dungeon just adds insult to injury. This has certainly been Eberron's greatest weakness. I can't even begin to guess what they were thinking.
Kravell 06-30-04, 10:17 AM	I'm not Keith, but I would like to point out that the "useless maps" at the beginning and end of the book are not part of the page count. Rather than put in blank pages, they reprinted the map. So we didn't pay for those maps. I haven't got my new Dungeon but I hadn't heard the map in it would be the mostly blank map. When I get a copy or read a post from someone who does then I'll know for sure. I think Wizards is getting away from maps. A bummer, but certainly out of Keith's control.
Ashrem Bayle 06-30-04, 10:20 AM	Originally posted by Kravell I'm not Keith, but I would like to point out that the "useless maps" at the beginning and end of the book are not part of the page count. Rather than put in blank pages, they reprinted the map. So we didn't pay for those maps. I haven't got my new Dungeon but I hadn't heard the map in it would be the mostly blank map. When I get a copy or read a post from someone who does then I'll know for sure. I think Wizards is getting away from maps. A bummer, but certainly out of Keith's control. Obviously this isn't Keith's faught. I know I certainly don't blame him. And you are right, the maps at the beginning and end aren't part of the page count, but we did pay for them. I was cool with the CS not having a big detailed map. I shrugged and said I could waite till it came out in Dungeon. And now this. If you are looking for a post about it, a guy over at ENWorld got his issue and he confirmed that it's the same map that can be found on WOTC's website. Just the names of nations... Not even the borders are outlined...:rolleyes:
elaith19 06-30-04, 10:27 AM	As specified in my thread, I just learned that the map contained in Dungeon #113 only bears the name of countries AND THAT'S IT. That's still WAY short of the mark for a quality setting like Eberron. I just hope this situation will be remedied soon.
sh0 06-30-04, 10:31 AM	I hope the editors at WotC see this thread and do something to correct it. Eberron is a wonderful setting and Keith did an amazing job. It is just unexecusable for WotC to charge $40 list price for this book and not include a nice detailed map like they did with the FRCS. Shame, shame WotC! sh0 :mad:
gzombie 06-30-04, 11:10 AM	Call customer service and inform them your book didn't come with the 'world map'. Then you can feign surprise and shock when they tell you it's not an error. Probably the only way WotC going to get it that they should have included a world map.
Sebby 06-30-04, 11:36 AM	(edit: I was writing this at the same time as gzombie, I guess) Hi, When I bought the Dragonlance CS, I was annoyed at the lack of a map. And I saw enough ranting about that that I was sure WotC would not do that again. How naive of me. :nonono: Then Eberron came out and as I was eagerly expecting it, I bought it even if there was no map. I was hoping that the upcoming Dungeon map would be it. But now I hear it won't. Ranting on a board, although very satisfying, just does not work. So here is what we all should do: as long as we are taking the time to write here, why not also send a copy to Customer Service as well? Here is the link: WotC Customer Service (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=company/feedbackform) Do not be insulting, do not flame. Just tell them you disaprove of their decision not to include a map, that you want one and are ready to buy a product that includes that kind of map. That, they might understand.
JohnnyONeal 06-30-04, 11:48 AM	Okay, three things: 1. It's not cool that there's no map. Let's put it in perspective -- it's not the end of the world. But it's something that ought to be remedied. 2. Hey Wizards, one easy way to fix this is by selling a more detailed map, perhaps with a DM screen and/or adventure. 3. In the meantime, the fans can do something about this. We've got a big blank map in high-quality image format. We've got all the pieces... it's just a matter of putting those pieces together. If anyone wants to step up to take this on as a project, I'd gladly help out and host it as a download on the Eberron Journal. Reply or PM if you'd like to help.
Taurren 06-30-04, 01:17 PM	Johnny, I know the lack of accurate and usable maps is not the end of the world. However, the lack anything close to a usable map is a real irritant and IMO an indication that WotC is not connected to what players and GM's want in a new setting. WotC somehow believes that new players to Eberron want and need 3 copies of the same blank continent map, as well as inaccurate and incomplete regional maps. Why they believe this I do not know. As I said before the setting is a good one, possibly even a great one, despite the absolutely poor decision to not include any good mapping tools for players and GM's to use.
Taigis 06-30-04, 02:19 PM	Johnny, I tried to PM you and it said your box was full. Taigis
JohnnyONeal 06-30-04, 02:55 PM	I know the lack of accurate and usable maps is not the end of the world. However, the lack anything close to a usable map is a real irritant and IMO an indication that WotC is not connected to what players and GM's want in a new setting.Of course, and I didn't mean to suggest that you were being unreasonable. I definitely agree with you on this.Johnny, I tried to PM you and it said your box was full.Sorry! Fixed.
scwolf 06-30-04, 03:13 PM	Originally posted by Sebby Ranting on a board, although very satisfying, just does not work. So here is what we all should do: as long as we are taking the time to write here, why not also send a copy to Customer Service as well? Here is the link: WotC Customer Service (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=company/feedbackform) Do not be insulting, do not flame. Just tell them you disaprove of their decision not to include a map, that you want one and are ready to buy a product that includes that kind of map. That, they might understand. Another avenue of reply would be to use the little Business Mail Reply Card from the back of the book. Sure, most of it is crammed with demographics-data gathering questions, but you can cram some comments into the margins. (Do you intend to buy another campaign setting in the next year? "If it has good maps") If you don't mind using a stamp of your own, write WotC a letter and fill out the reply card, put them both in an envelope, and send it to the address listed on the reply card. By including the reply card, it shows "Yes, I am a paying consumer of your books" and the letter lets you explain your position that you might not be buying future product, without coming across as snide as little margin comments on the card might. (Don't be tempted to staple or attach something to the business mail reply card itself and try to send it on WotC's pre-paid postage, as the Post Office is a little touchy about such things, and may just throw it out instead of delivering it).
Axys 06-30-04, 03:15 PM	:devil::devil: Well, let's stop for a moment and try to look at this from a completely new perspective.....What if WotC and KB/HellCow left most of the regional things blank for a reason? Wouldn't that allow DM's to 'flesh' out Eberron to thier more desired likings?????? Instead of having a mountain of material that already exists, what if they decided that leaving the DM more options and creative control within the setting is the direction that they are taking? I personally enjoy that fact that I have the ability to change things and add them on my whim as a DM and do not have everything set in stone as I did with FR or other campaign settings. Instead of pouring through mountains of FAQ and materials, I can just say....oh, that's _______ river or something else....then all it takes is scribbling that down in my notebook to save it for later...... :devil::devil: Open up your minds as DMs, let the creativity flow....dont go about ranting that you got cheated by not having detailed maps....pull up some grey matter and let the imagination flow.
not_human 06-30-04, 03:17 PM	I'll play the contrarian here. I think the sparse and vague maps are a great thing. If I wanted everything detailed, everything spelled out, and everything locked in canonical stone, I'd play Forgotten Realms. I look to a setting book for help in building a campaign, but some of the work I want to do myself. I don't want some uppity player telling me where such and such dungeon actually is, or how far from village X the lightning rail line actually runs. I know exactly where it is, because I put it there. Wizards is even more accomodating to my desires, and have put up a gallery of totally blank maps on the Eberron site, which I think rocks. Want to put Sharn on the other side of the bay- have at it. Need a Greyjoy principality in Lhazaar- check. Want to change the scale from the mildly absurd rulers presented in the setting book- cut and snip. Eberron, being brand new, and comprising only one book so far, is empty. And there is a virtue in that.
Sebby 06-30-04, 03:36 PM	True enough, But the roads and locations are already marked on separate maps in the book. So why not provide a whole map? Plus, nothing would have prevented them from publishing blanks like they did even if they had provided a complete continental map. I actually like to have some work done for me. That is why I pay for such books. It leaves me more time for adventure design. Cheers!
Taigis 06-30-04, 03:39 PM	Originally posted by Axys :devil::devil: Well, let's stop for a moment and try to look at this from a completely new perspective.....What if WotC and KB/HellCow left most of the regional things blank for a reason? Wouldn't that allow DM's to 'flesh' out Eberron to thier more desired likings?????? Instead of having a mountain of material that already exists, what if they decided that leaving the DM more options and creative control within the setting is the direction that they are taking? I personally enjoy that fact that I have the ability to change things and add them on my whim as a DM and do not have everything set in stone as I did with FR or other campaign settings. Instead of pouring through mountains of FAQ and materials, I can just say....oh, that's _______ river or something else....then all it takes is scribbling that down in my notebook to save it for later...... : Most peoples complaints about the maps in the ECSB revolve around the zoomed in portions in the country sections. It isn't so much that theres this big blank map in the book. Its the fact that when they did add details to the maps in the country sections, there are numerous errors between the maps. Roads present on one map that leave a country going into another. And when you go to that countries map, the road isn't there. If they failed to label this mountain or that river, it wouldn't be such a problem. However, when a location is labelled on one map, but that label isn't on another map involving the same location, it makes it less user friendly. (Example: Lake Galifar. Labeled in the Eldeen Reaches, but not labeled in Aundair.) Yes, I can still use the maps and get a lot of information out of them. Yes I can come up with some creative instory reason as to why the map is inaccurate. However, out of story, it just looks like sloppy cartography. The country maps appear to have been created separately, notes indicating that a road needs to exit this city and go west. But when that same road is drawn on a different map, it is placed differently. If the country maps had been created from a single large map, these errors would have been reduced if not eliminated. So claiming that the absence of detail on a small scale map gives the DM freedom to add detail is true only if you ignore the large scale maps in the country sections with the higher level of detail. Details which don't always match up between sections. I would have liked an overall detailed map. Does its absence really hinder my game, no not really. They've provided detailed maps in another form. The errors in the details do provide some problems, though. Taigis
scwolf 06-30-04, 11:57 PM	Originally posted by Taigis I would have liked an overall detailed map. Does its absence really hinder my game, no not really. They've provided detailed maps in another form. The errors in the details do provide some problems, though. It reminds me of the summer that a Shadowrun gaming buddy of mine created a large-scale detailed map of the greater Seattle Metroplex out of the maps in the 1st Edition Shadowrun Seattle Sourcebook. NONE of the maps were to the same scale, or the same rotational alignment. And seeing as this was '92, access to flatbed scanners and image manipulation software was a bit out of the league of a high school sophmore, so he had to do his image scaling by photocopier (tricky at best, because at the time, we had no idea which images needed to be enlarged, and which needed to be reduced to make them fit) and cut and paste each map section on posterboard like some demented jigsaw puzzle. The end result was impressive, but truth be told, we could have spent that time actually gaming. :rolleyes: