Post/Author/DateTime	Post
elfinn3 02-27-05, 10:54 PM	Anyone attempt to read "City of Towers"?? As excited as I was to immerse myself in the first Eberron novel, my enthusiasm quickly waned as I stumbled over error after error. I haven't read too many D&D novels, but the few FR books I have read didn't have such a distractingly huge number of simple typos and grammatical errors. Is Wizards cutting costs by 86'ing editors or is this an open call for volunteers? (If any Wizards reps are reading, I'd be happy to edit the next Eberron novel. Seriously, I teach writing. Call me.) Without going back and re-reading previous chapters to find the errors, I decided to just read on and list them as I find them: p. 142, 6th paragraph, 3rd sentence: "Do think that it could have simply been a random attack?" (Should read, "Do you think...") NEXT PARAGRAPH: "One the other hand, Monan did seem to recognize Rasial..." (Obviously should be, "On the other hand...") I could go on, but I'd rather get paid for it. So instead I'll attempt, once again, to look beyond the thick veil of mistakes that riddle the pages of "City of Towers" and enjoy the story as best I can. By the way, I mean no offense to Keith Baker; every good writer needs an editor, it's just that most have one.
Edymnion 02-27-05, 11:04 PM	Ya know, I didn't even notice the errors until I read your fixes and went back and looked at them word by word. Dunno, I just don't read that way most of the time. I do a form of speed reading, recognizing word shapes and sentence patterns instead of the individual letters (in fact, typing this up, I'm actually thinking about what I'm typing, and I keep having to hit Backspace for all the errors I keep injecting because of it). Yeah, little errors like that are annoying, but they're really not uncommon. I mean, I've noticed them in Herbert and Clarke novels as well. Typos happen, especially when the editor is likely getting paid minimum wage and is just skimming.
Beleriphon 02-27-05, 11:15 PM	Yeah, little errors like that are annoying, but they're really not uncommon. I mean, I've noticed them in Herbert and Clarke novels as well. Typos happen, especially when the editor is likely getting paid minimum wage and is just skimming. That and typesetters (not that we actually have type setters anymore) can also add mistakes in the printing process. Trust me, I editted a couple of pieces for a yearbook and they were perfect when they left my possession. Not so when I got them back all bound and prettied up.
Zalaz Mavi 02-28-05, 09:02 AM	The typos didn't bother me, to be honest. As far as grammar goes, you have to take into account this is creative writing, not a formal document. If City of Towers were a thesis paper or a contract, then yes, MLA standards would apply. Otherwise, considerable license is a given. From a writing standpoint, my criticism of City of Towers was how the characters were introduced to the reader. In effect, they weren't, aside from being named. It was as if this were not the first book in a series, but a later book that assumes the reader were already familiar with the characters. It made the first few chapters awkward and flat, until the characters really started to demonstrate their personalities. Which is one of the core "rules" of any sort of writing, "Show, don't tell"...
shemnon 02-28-05, 09:50 AM	There were typos? Man, I knew I read what I wanted to see, no wonder my english papers tend to get bad grammer grades.
Bubba333 02-28-05, 10:01 AM	Yea, I noticed them and was a little surprised they were there. However, they were only minor typos and not errors of syntax and the like. The meat of the story was fantastic and I thoroughly enjoyed the novel. IMO, it was excellent and if that's a first for Keith, I feel we can expect great things from him in the future. We did hear how massive Pierce's bow was a tad too often though...;)
RamblingScribe 02-28-05, 10:36 AM	I also noticed several errors, although oddly, not the ones you mentioned. I am a very deep immersion reader; when I read I stop being aware of the text and simply watch the movie in my brain. Errors like this tend to jerk me out of that state, reducing the experience for me. My feeling was that it was mostly edited by a spellchecker program, because most of the typos I saw were actually a correctly spelled word, just not the right one. I also agree that the characters seemed a little stilted initially, until you got to know them Mind you, I still enjoyed the book a great deal. Craig Shackleton, The Rambling Scribe
Vharuck 02-28-05, 11:28 AM	They started the story already in progress to avoid an info dump. Info dumps are trite little tools of exposition that basically bore the living crap outta everyone. You start with action to hook the reader, and I learned of the characters not through five page biographies where Keith said, "Lei was born here, went here, studied here, she owns a cat, blah blah blah" but instead reveals the characters by the actions they take and how they deal with situations.
Nightshade 02-28-05, 11:31 AM	Yes, I noticed them and could not agree more. If a novel has such mistakes, I always notice them and I always find them distracting and annoying. But I'm a nitpicky lawyer so I notice these things. I think, it's important that writers and editors work together as a team to produce the best product possible for their readers. When I see mistakes such as this, it makes me sad. Sad to see that the publishers take such little pride in their work and that they care so little for their readers that they are willing to put out inferior products for adoring fans. I know I'd be willing to wait the extra week so someone could read the book through and correct the typos as they went along. Heck, I'd do it for free.
Zalaz Mavi 02-28-05, 12:33 PM	They started the story already in progress to avoid an info dump. Info dumps are trite little tools of exposition that basically bore the living crap outta everyone. You start with action to hook the reader, and I learned of the characters not through five page biographies where Keith said, "Lei was born here, went here, studied here, she owns a cat, blah blah blah" but instead reveals the characters by the actions they take and how they deal with situations. You wouldn't have to go to such Old Testament extremes as pages of begats, but a few descriptive sentences to make a first impression would have sufficed...
JohnnyONeal 02-28-05, 12:56 PM	Editing stuff is part of my job, so I definitely noticed some mistakes, but not nearly as many as people are describing here. Generally, I was too caught up in the story to notice a word missing here or there. There were lots of places I would have used commas where the book did not, but that's more of a style choice. I consider myself a nitpicker, and this issue really didn't impede my enjoyment of the book. The part of editing that really matters -- making sure the story stays tight and flows well -- was very well done. As I've made clear (http://breland-ledger.blogspot.com/2005/02/top-ten-reasons-to-buy-city-of-towers.html), I think this is a book that every Eberron fan should pick up. (For what it's worth, "literary criticism" threads on WotC novels get locked pretty quickly, as too many have turned into bash-fests. If that happens to this thread, don't take it personally.)
Euangelion 02-28-05, 01:19 PM	"City of Towers" didn't seem to have any more or less typos than any other WOTC product. I know that they had an open assisting editor position listed on the website a few months back, which probably means that they've been short-staffed. Hiring another person would definately help.
Zaxon D'Mir 02-28-05, 01:44 PM	Wow, I have an English degree, edited plenty of papers and what not and never caught a thing. I guess I'm with Johnny too caught up in story (GREAT STORY!). Definite must read!
Edymnion 02-28-05, 02:46 PM	You wouldn't have to go to such Old Testament extremes as pages of begats, but a few descriptive sentences to make a first impression would have sufficed...Speaking of which, even the Old Testament itself isn't free of typos. Whenever people get involved, things get messed up. Red Sea, Reed Sea, all it takes is one guy that isn't paying attention.
Indigo 03-01-05, 01:33 AM	From a writing standpoint, my criticism of City of Towers was how the characters were introduced to the reader. In effect, they weren't... Which is one of the core "rules" of any sort of writing, "Show, don't tell"... Huh. I felt that they were showing as opposed to telling, by showing the characters in action as opposed to divorcing them from the action to describe them. Immediately on introduction, I know that Daine is a soldier and commander, ready to push his underlings and bend rules (as shown by his orders to Saerath and Lei). Lei is not a fighter but has inner reserves of strength when pushed, and I liked the way that the magic of the artificer was presented, instead of "she used an inflict light damage infusion." Jode is a healer and seems to have a gentle touch. In the middle of battle, this is what I expect to know of them; more personal details emerge in the more domestic environment. What I see is the characters in battle and how they respond to battle. You could argue that the battle is therefore a bad place to begin, but to me it clearly established what the group had been through together and gives you some idea of why there's only a few of them left by Chapter Two. I suppose my thought is that it's not set up as the beginning of a story, because for the characters, it's not the beginning; this isn't Bilbo Baggins sitting on his doorstep and waiting for adventure to begin, it's the middle of a war. Anyhow, everyone has an opinion (including me). But I don't see how introducing the characters through action instead of exposition counts as "telling" as opposed to "showing." Curiously, speaking of Bilbo on his doorstep, I just noticed that as far as I can see Tolkien never gives a thorough physical description of Bilbo, other than that he's smaller than a dwarf; precise details are left to your imagination. Obviously Baker's no Tolkien, but he's not the first author to leave some details for the reader to fill in. *shrug* No point here, really, just an observation.
About Yea High 03-01-05, 02:02 PM	As far as I know, unless change has happened, the Eberron book department has only one editor. Likely his workload is still rather staggering. "Here's your work for the month... by the way, we're also holding an open call for the War-Torn series. It's in your hands. Have fun!" Yea
Siduakal 03-01-05, 02:07 PM	Ya know, I didn't even notice the errors until I read your fixes and went back and looked at them word by word. Dunno, I just don't read that way most of the time. I do a form of speed reading, recognizing word shapes and sentence patterns instead of the individual letters (in fact, typing this up, I'm actually thinking about what I'm typing, and I keep having to hit Backspace for all the errors I keep injecting because of it). lol I do that too. It's why I didn't know I had bad vision up close, I could read fine because I could figure out the words rather easy. And I had a nice time reading the book. It was a great book. And if you let a few errors affect your judgement.. then it's your loss.
Saurenda 03-01-05, 08:16 PM	Oh thank God it wasn't just me. The book is litered with mistakes, but it wasn't so bad it made the book unreadible Mr.Baker. Grammar aside I loved the flavor that was provided by the book. The unqiue use of the artificer's vest and studs helped inspire my own character I now play just after reading the book. I did not steal the idea. Shut up. :D The topic of warforged women was addressed, and although a good deal of great filler art was left out of the Sharn suppliment book we now know there are no warforged women with breasts walking about. They only have female voices. That filler art with the huge chest warforged female scared me. Those aren't for slam attacks Oo; It was also nice to see a typical DnD BBEG use himself so subtely. I won't reveal who or what because that will spoil a little of the book. BTW is the staff the artificer still has a intelligent item?
deganawida 03-01-05, 08:29 PM	Glad to know that I wasn't the only person who was a bit miffed at all of the editorial mistakes in City of Towers. It was a good read, fun and insightful, but for crying out loud, was it edited with Microsoft Word's spell-checker? I mean, how many times is the word "her" replaced with "here" (quick answer: at least six)? What about the missing quotation marks? Oh, well, I suppose that I should at least be glad that it wasn't as bad as Dragons of Winter Twilight, which, to this day, still has the Tarsis guards using hauberks as weapons. Yeah, uh huh, threaten me with a chainmail shirt, and we'll see just how far you get.
Nos-4-A2 03-01-05, 09:54 PM	Its no laughing matter. In the hands of a master, there is nothing more deadly than a hauberk.
WizO_Sith 03-01-05, 10:33 PM	From a writing standpoint, my criticism of City of Towers was how the characters were introduced to the reader. In effect, they weren't, aside from being named. It was as if this were not the first book in a series, but a later book that assumes the reader were already familiar with the characters. It made the first few chapters awkward and flat, until the characters really started to demonstrate their personalities. Which is one of the core "rules" of any sort of writing, "Show, don't tell"... Actually, that style of writing/characterization is pretty common in books of the "Hard Boiled Detective" genre (something that the setting tries to emulate). So, it might've been an intentional borrowing of style.
RamblingScribe 03-02-05, 09:20 AM	And I had a nice time reading the book. It was a great book. And if you let a few errors affect your judgement.. then it's your loss. Hmmm... you say this like I have a choice about it. As I said in an earlier post, when I read, I become immersed in a book. Certain types of errors in the text, like incorrect words or extra words, jar me out of that immersion. Spelling errors and minor grammar errors don't affect me as much. But the feeling I get is like I'm watching a movie, and the guy behind me has suddenly said 'watch this, this is my favorite part' very loudly. It makes me aware of the artificiality of the situation. I don't go scouring books for errors any more than I look around in a movie theatre to see if someone in another row is talking. It just lessens the experience for me when it interrupts me. I'd also like to restate that I, like pretty much every person who has mentioned these errors, on the whole enjoyed the book. More than one person has said that it's too bad that such a good work was not handled with more care. Regarding the showing the characters vs. telling about them; I mostly think this was done well. There was one argumment between Lei and Daine that seemed stilted and contrived. It was right near the beginning of the book. I should go back and read it again, and see if it fits better now that I've gotten used to the characters. Unfortunately I've loaned my copy of the novel to a friend. Someone back there also said that Baker is no Tolkien. To this I say Thank Goodness! LotR was a long hard drudge, whereas City of Towers was an exciting adventure! ;) For those who are interested, I wrote a review of CoT for sfsite.com . I'll post here when they put it up on the site. Craig Shackleton, The Rambling Scribe