Post/Author/DateTime	Post
talion09 03-21-06, 10:48 PM	I don't have my ECS handy to check (lent it to another player), so hopefully someone can help me... Is there a list of "fiends" native to Eberron from the Age of Demons (ie. Rakhasas, etc), or is it just a process of elimination by looking at the entries for the outer planes and checking which demons and devils are listed as natives of the respective outer planes (ie. Balors and Fernia)?
Rechan 03-22-06, 12:27 AM	Pretty sure you're going to have to look through the planes section; I don't believe there's a list of native fiends. Though, I could have sworn Rakshasa and Nighthags were the only "native" fiends. ... Which makes me wonder, are there any native celestials aside from the couatl?
talion09 03-22-06, 12:56 AM	Pretty sure you're going to have to look through the planes section; I don't believe there's a list of native fiends. Though, I could have sworn Rakshasa and Nighthags were the only "native" fiends. ... Which makes me wonder, are there any native celestials aside from the couatl? Hags and Rakshasas were the only ones that sprang to mind, aside from the Rajahs... I'm assuming that there must be more than them, otherwise the power would of been on the couatl/dragon side I would think, aside from the epic Rajahs of course...
Titanic Ego 03-22-06, 08:11 AM	Hags and Rakshasas were the only ones that sprang to mind, aside from the Rajahs... I'm assuming that there must be more than them, otherwise the power would of been on the couatl/dragon side I would think, aside from the epic Rajahs of course... 1. Couatl and rakshasa are comparable, and many of them had enough class levels to make them epic sorcerors. 2. Dragons are tough in battle, but it takes them hundreds of years to develop to epic power levels. If you kill a rakshasa it will respawn in a week. An army of hundreds or thousands of rakshasa can engage in kamikaze attacks en masse on a nearly continual basis. 3. Ak'chazar are pretty tough in their own right, and remember all of those rakshasa with epic levels. Think about all the epic giant wizards, when there are virtually no such human wizards: rakshasa are just better at getting lots and lots of PC class levels than mortals.
talion09 03-22-06, 11:57 AM	1. Couatl and rakshasa are comparable, and many of them had enough class levels to make them epic sorcerors. 2. Dragons are tough in battle, but it takes them hundreds of years to develop to epic power levels. If you kill a rakshasa it will respawn in a week. An army of hundreds or thousands of rakshasa can engage in kamikaze attacks en masse on a nearly continual basis. 3. Ak'chazar are pretty tough in their own right, and remember all of those rakshasa with epic levels. Think about all the epic giant wizards, when there are virtually no such human wizards: rakshasa are just better at getting lots and lots of PC class levels than mortals. 1. Good point about the development time of Dragons to become powerful and Rakshasas having class levels. 2. But I don't think that a slain Rakshasa would respawn. Isn't it only outsiders from the Outer Planes that respawn like that, not native outsiders like Rakshasas or Night Hags (or Couatls for that matter). 3. Isn't there anything else bound within the Silver Flame BUT Rakshasas and Rajahs?
Titanic Ego 03-22-06, 01:15 PM	1. Good point about the development time of Dragons to become powerful and Rakshasas having class levels. 2. But I don't think that a slain Rakshasa would respawn. Isn't it only outsiders from the Outer Planes that respawn like that, not native outsiders like Rakshasas or Night Hags (or Couatls for that matter). 3. Isn't there anything else bound within the Silver Flame BUT Rakshasas and Rajahs? 2. Check out Keith's article in Dragon 337 or the AKB thread. Rakshasa are actually the paradigmatic case of respawning outsiders. As long as they have 12 hd+class levels they return with full memories, if less they return with basic knowledge of their rajah master and purpose in life. Some example respawn times: 1 day if killed with mundane (non-magical) weapons, 1 week with typical magic, 1d4 weeks with powerful holy magic, and as much as a year if killed with a holy sword tempered with their own blood and various rituals. 3. The Qabalrin vampires and other spirits bound in the Ring of Storms (who form the Umbra empowering the Umbragen) are bound with the power of the Flame. There probably are some hags (plus the rajah ruler of the hags) bound in the Flame, and perhaps some random outsiders. There may also be whole races of fiends (less prominent than the rakshasa) that we don't know about because there are no members still loose. If you want to introduce klurichir or other exotic fiends, you could say that they were native to Eberron but are all (or almost all) bound.
Belabras 03-22-06, 01:51 PM	As per the Dragon Magazine article on the LoD, we know there's at least one native Succubi in addition to the Rashakas and Hags.
Azazyll 03-22-06, 02:14 PM	She's not native. Nor is the pit fiend also mentioned in the article. Both are exiles form their home planes. As of now, the only outsiders native to eberron are Rakshasas of various types, night hags, and the couatl. Dragons were described as being in a primitive state. It seems that they were treated like animals by the other species, or perhaps like the way the elves were treated by the giants. So they were powerful but disorganized, it may be that the couatl were the motivating force behind their civilization and joing together to face the Rakshasa Rajas. The EH puts a lot more emphasis on more traditional fiends (tanar'ri, chain devils etc) being in the demon wastes, but never asserts that they are native, it just appears that there was a lot of traffic with the evil planes there. It may also have been that the planes were created by the cataclysm of the age of demons, in which case they might previously have been demons (keith alluded to this once i believe). Or the planes might have been created in the battle between the progenitor wyrms, in which case, those other demons never were native to Eberron. My big question is, were their couatl equivalents of Rajas? Or night hag equivalents? Night hags were neutral in the wars and acted as diplomats. Perhaps Sora Kel qualifies as a Rajah level power among the night hags.
Rechan 03-22-06, 02:45 PM	3. The Qabalrin vampires and other spirits bound in the Ring of Storms (who form the Umbra empowering the Umbragen) are bound with the power of the Flame. There probably are some hags (plus the rajah ruler of the hags) bound in the Flame, and perhaps some random outsiders. There may also be whole races of fiends (less prominent than the rakshasa) that we don't know about because there are no members still loose. If you want to introduce klurichir or other exotic fiends, you could say that they were native to Eberron but are all (or almost all) bound. Where does it say the vampires are bound? According to Dungeon #122, the vampirse were merely locked away deep inside the earth by the competing faction in the Qalabrin, and then when the giant shard hit, it pretty much buried their lairs. Where does the SF fit into this?
Takasi 03-22-06, 06:11 PM	According to the conversion notes for the Age of Worms campaign, Keith Baker specifically mentions an occulus demon as a native outsider from the Age of Demons. Personally I like the idea of legions of demons in various areas in Khyber. Once the rajah masters were bound with the Silver Flame, their demonic followers were either expelled to the planes or to Khyber. This mechanic allows for some ambiguity when dealing with outsiders. Even a very knowledgable caster should always have to break a sweat when considering to dismiss a demon. Was it summoned/plane shifted here or is it native to this world? There shouldn't be canon to resolve this, it should be left open for DMs to determine based on plot. Rakshasas are far more common because they are patient and can easily avoid getting the attention of the Chamber/Silver Flame. Pit fiends, for example, aren't going to spend millenia disguised as giants, elves, human, etc. One pit fiend may be a direct descendent of Khyber while another may be a Shavarath native. The demons that came out of Thrane in the Year of Blood and Fire were pit fiends and a balor I think. They should be considered native outsiders IMO. Under the feet of Khorvaire are all of the horrible minions of hell waiting to be freed.
Lazaro 03-22-06, 08:49 PM	Where does it say the vampires are bound? According to Dungeon #122, the vampirse were merely locked away deep inside the earth by the competing faction in the Qalabrin, and then when the giant shard hit, it pretty much buried their lairs. Where does the SF fit into this? Dungeon 122, pg.75 The Shapers of Night where sealed underneath the earth by the Unspoken. A week later The Heart of Siberys fell on the Qabalrin. When the last shard fell, the wizards weaved one last enchantment that drew in the souls of the elves into a vast well of darkness. The dragon seers of Argonnessen had predicted the fall of the shard and power that would emerge. The dragons caught the lingering spirits of the Qabalrin and channeled them into the shard. To bind the darkness, the dragons drew energy away from the Silver Flame. Filling the shard with a balance of light and darkness. My big question is, were their couatl equivalents of Rajas? Or night hag equivalents? Night hags were neutral in the wars and acted as diplomats. Perhaps Sora Kel qualifies as a Rajah level power among the night hags. Keith answered this during his Uncon chat. Mostly to sum it up, there were unique Couatl during the Age of Demons. But none of them where an equal match for a Rajah.
Rechan 03-22-06, 09:03 PM	Dungeon 122, pg.75 The Shapers of Night where sealed underneath the earth by the Unspoken. A week later The Heart of Siberys fell on the Qabalrin. When the last shard fell, the wizards weaved one last enchantment that drew in the souls of the elves into a vast well of darkness. The dragon seers of Argonnessen had predicted the fall of the shard and power that would emerge. The dragons caught the lingering spirits of the Qabalrin and channeled them into the shard. To bind the darkness, the dragons drew energy away from the Silver Flame. Filling the shard with a balance of light and darkness. That just talks about all of the Qalabrin entirely. There's nothing in that paragarph that describes the Vampires being killed, or being bound in the shard. It doesn't suggest the vampires were destroyed or even harmed by the fall. In fact, to quote The Eberron Expanded - Libris Mortis (Part one) (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20060130a): Their greatest treasure, however, is the knowledge that remains in the minds of the ancient vampires who are still buried beneath the ruins of their once-great city. Or perhaps the secrets of the master vampire prestige class are known only to the entombed lords of the Qabalrin. But these ancient vampires are creatures of epic power, and their release could have terrible consequences for Eberron. Emphasis mine. If the vampires were bound in the siberys shard, they would not be beneath the ruins because the Shard, according to Dungeon #122, is on the surface. Also, if they were bound in the Shard, the shard would have to be destroyed. How could you isolate them from the other souls in the Shard? Finally, if they were released (with all of the Qalabrin), how could the vampires alone be a threat when all of the souls released would be a general threat?