Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DBlizzard 06-10-07, 07:53 AM	In the Forge of War preview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070607a), we get this bit: Aundair: Although it has neither the strongest military nor the best intelligence, Aundair maintains its superiority in the field of arcane magic. Its various guilds and schools produce enough battle-capable sorcerers and wizards that no nation is yet prepared to field an army against it. Breland: The King's Citadel, and specifically the Dark Lanterns, remains the most skilled intelligence organization on the continent. The forces of Breland might not be able to match the other nations on the field, but they're almost certain to have advance notice of any move against them. Karrnath: Karrnath remains the dominant military power in the region. Its armies are larger, better trained, and better equipped. If it can find a way to counter even one of the other nations' advantages, Karrnath would almost certainly be the dominant power among the Five Nations. Thrane: Unsurprisingly, Thrane holds the advantage of divine magic. It can field an army second only to that of Karrnath, bolstered by clerics capable of calling on the gods' favor, healing injured soldiers, and in some cases demolishing Karrnath's undead units. I had never thought of this before (mostly because I didn't make the Breland connection), but we have a direct D&D adventuring party parallel. Karrath is the fighter. Thrane is the cleric. Aundair is the wizard. Breland is the rogue. I guess that also means that Cyre would have been the assorted utility characters (bard, etc). We have at least one other connection outside the Five Nations. The Eldeen Reachers are the druids. Any other connections?
Bluebrush 06-10-07, 09:37 AM	Cyre would be the artificer. Or the Bard I guess. For a little bit of a self-injoke, my first five Eberron PCs were each from different nations and different classes. Zet (AKA:Roger Walke), the changeling rogue of Breland. Sonya Kartzwald, Karrnathi Cleric of Dol Dorn and the Host. Damascus, the warforged artifcer from Cyre. Daies, the exiled Thrane knight. (OA Samurai) Nim, Aundarian changeling wizard. So I'd say the idea of the five nations as class types fits. It's almost a shame for the people of Galifar that their universe isn't run on the same game-aware rules as The Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html), otherwise they may know that while each class has strengths, they work best if you've got at least one of each as part of the whole. Overextended metaphors aside, I also thought about PCs from each of the other nations forming a group. (Eldeen Druid, Marches Barbaina, etc.)
Kaodi 06-10-07, 03:13 PM	Well, it has been said before that Breland is famous for charismatic leaders. That kind of implies that they favour marshalls as well, more than any other nation, because rogues tend to be agile and smart, with charisma playing third to those. No comparison can ever really be exact.
Hellcow 06-10-07, 04:23 PM	Excellent analysis! However, I have to criticize one point from the ORIGINAL article... Breland: The King's Citadel, and specifically the Dark Lanterns, remains the most skilled intelligence organization on the continent. No no no no no. The Dark Lanterns are unquestionably the most skilled intelligence organization in the Five Nations. However, I would say that on the continental level House Thuranni, House Phiarlan, and the Trust would all be strong contenders for the title (I'd throw in the Cabinet of Faces, but they aren't really an "intelligence organization"). The Dark Lanterns are master spies... but intrigue was the national pastime of Zilargo long before humanity even came to the continent. Nonetheless, the people of the Five Nations have a tendancy to overlook the other countries, so I suppose I'll dismiss this as Brelish propaganda.
Rechan 06-10-07, 05:16 PM	I'd say the Eldeen would be more Ranger than Druid, but that's just me.
davethebrave371 06-10-07, 07:50 PM	Excellent analysis! However, I have to criticize one point from the ORIGINAL article... No no no no no. The Dark Lanterns are unquestionably the most skilled intelligence organization in the Five Nations. However, I would say that on the continental level House Thuranni, House Phiarlan, and the Trust would all be strong contenders for the title (I'd throw in the Cabinet of Faces, but they aren't really an "intelligence organization"). The Dark Lanterns are master spies... but intrigue was the national pastime of Zilargo long before humanity even came to the continent. Nonetheless, the people of the Five Nations have a tendancy to overlook the other countries, so I suppose I'll dismiss this as Brelish propaganda. I always thought the Royal Eyes were superior, at least by a little, to the Dark Lanterns.
Hellcow 06-10-07, 08:06 PM	I always thought the Royal Eyes were superior, at least by a little, to the Dark Lanterns. Personally, I'm willing to give the Dark Lanterns the edge because I do see Breland as, when it comes down to it, the most roguish of the Five Nations. I mentioned on another thread the idea that for all their love of freedom, Breland was a hotbed for corruption and crime... meaning both that before the war, Citadel agents were dealing with wilier prey than their counterparts in other nations, and that when the war began Breland had more weaselly people to draw on. I have no doubt that Aundair has better arcane support for its agents. But essentially, Aundair has always placed its values on intelligence and magic; I feel that Breland has always had a little more respect for charisma and street smarts, both of which help an agent. So I think that they will have different styles - more "gadgets" for the Royal Eyes, maybe a few levels in wizard or magewright to back up expert or rogue - while the Dark Lanterns will be better at flat-out spycraft. On the other hand, as I said, intrigue permeates every level of life in Zilargo, and it's already been noted that Zilargo has a far higher percentage of experts and bards than most nations to reflect this; a Zil farmer is likely to have levels in Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), and Sense Motive in addition to his Profession skill and Handle Animal, because those are simply everyday skills in Zilargo. So when THEY go to pick the best of their best spies, you should worry. (Side note: many Zil "bards" use Oratory as their means of performance; they are capable of inspiring people, but they make inspiring speeches as opposed to singing.)
mhacdebhandia 06-10-07, 09:09 PM	The "Cyran appreciation" makes that country the bard. I guess I am responsible for the destruction of Cyre, since I eliminate the bard from my campaigns! :eek:
davethebrave371 06-10-07, 09:10 PM	On the subject of intelligence orgs, and I know this is slightly off topic (but not really, as this is sort of the origin of the Last War) but prior to the Last War, the Citadel, the Royal Eyes, etc. were all basically sharing information to a great extent. When Breland, Karrnath and Thrane decided to usurp Cyre's right to the throne, obviously while they maintained that level of communication they always had with each other, they would have cut off the feed to the Cyran org. However, if the Queen of Breland had indeed secretly petitioned all three of her other siblings, would not the Royal Eyes have been aware of the plot, and in communique with the Cyran org?
Hellcow 06-10-07, 09:55 PM	Perhaps (and I can't say, since I didn't work on it) Forge of War will address this question. With that said, this is exactly why I'd say Breland DOES have the best intelligence network of the Five Nations. The key point here: Prior to the Last War, the Five Nations weren't exactly kingdoms; they were more like states in the US. Sure, they had territorial law enforcement and the like, but the big guns were attached to Galifar as opposed to one nation, and served all of Galifar. We see this in Arcanix and the Arcane Congress - located in Aundair, but the center of arcane research for Galifar as a whole. Sure, Karrnath was doing some specialized research in war magic at Rekkenmark, but by and large none of the nations needed such dedicated arcane facilities, because the entire nation benefitted from the work being done in Aundair. Likewise, Rekkenmark in Karrnath. This was the premier military academy throughout Galifar, and officers would come from across Galifar to train there. When the Last War began, these facilities were seized by the individual rulers. Beyond that, the nations holding them already had a stronger bent in that direction because of centuries as the focus for that activity. So it's not that Aundairians are just better at magic than everyone; it's that Aundair was always where Galifar poured its arcane research funds, and if you were an Aundairian who didn't want to leave home, you'd look for a job in the magic business. Religion was something of a national obsession with Thrane, even before the nation became a theocracy. Flamekeep was always the spiritual center of the Silver Flame within Galifar, which counted for something. So, where am I going with this? The facilities of the kingdom were always spread out. Magical research was based in Aundair. Military training in Karrnath. So, I'll assert that The King's Citadel - based in Breland - was the foremost intelligence agency within Galifar - charged with engaging in intelligence operations across the kingdom. The Royal Eyes of Aundair might have been a small, local operation for the Prince/Princess, but they weren't designed to be a full national operation, because there already WAS a national operation - the King's Citadel. When the rebellion occured and the leader of the Citadel threw his weight behind Wroann, there would have been serious shakeups across the continent. Before things went too far, the Dark Lanterns would need to identify everyone who could be trusted or not - and bear in mind that a) not all Brelish backed Wroann and b) you might have Cyran or Aundairian agents of the Citadel who put their loyalty to the Citadel ahead of their loyalty to their nation of birth. So the Citadel would engage in massive housekeeping - and meanwhile the other nations would have to deal with the fact that they had agents of an organization with more Brelish nationals than anyone else already placed within their borders. By a few years into the war, some of the biggest aspects of this would be shaken out. But the Royal Eyes, Dark Cabinet, etc would be new to the field of global intelligence, largely relying on agents of their nation who had previously served with the Citadel - while the Citadel would have the experience, greater numbers of agents, and contacts already in place across the Five Nations. So sure, with that in mind, I can certainly see Breland as the "Rogue" country, and easily give it a huge advantage in intelligence over the other nations. I'd even say that this would give it an edge over Zilargo when it comes to gathering intelligence in the Five Nations. But I still say that on a one to one basis, you just don't want to mess with the Trust. In general, though, I've never seen the "rebellion" as much of a secret, or some sort of swift, orchestrated act. As I see it, it was a period of general unrest that finally broke into open conflict. None of the rulers could act without the support of their nation, and you can't find out if you have the support of your nation if it's a big secret. I'm that such support was far from unanimous - I'm sure there were many who did feel that it was wrong of their rulers to turn on old Galifar, and who either immigrated or acted as insurgents. I know Forge of War DOES go into history in more detail, so we'll see what it says.
Euangelion 06-11-07, 11:16 AM	When the rebellion occured and the leader of the Citadel threw his weight behind Wroann, there would have been serious shakeups across the continent. Before things went too far, the Dark Lanterns would need to identify everyone who could be trusted or not - and bear in mind that a) not all Brelish backed Wroann and b) you might have Cyran or Aundairian agents of the Citadel who put their loyalty to the Citadel ahead of their loyalty to their nation of birth. So the Citadel would engage in massive housekeeping - and meanwhile the other nations would have to deal with the fact that they had agents of an organization with more Brelish nationals than anyone else already placed within their borders. By a few years into the war, some of the biggest aspects of this would be shaken out. But the Royal Eyes, Dark Cabinet, etc would be new to the field of global intelligence, largely relying on agents of their nation who had previously served with the Citadel - while the Citadel would have the experience, greater numbers of agents, and contacts already in place across the Five Nations. The other consequence of this development is that it would have instantly elevated the importance of House Phiarlan to the other nations. Cha-ching!
AntiSean 06-11-07, 03:55 PM	the renowned Zil librarian Augusta Wainwocket Who the hell is responsible for this atrocity of a gnomish name? Tinker gnomes are from that other setting over there; keep the joke names out of this one kplsthanxbai. :gnash:
The Dreaming Duck 06-11-07, 04:06 PM	Who the hell is responsible for this atrocity of a gnomish name? Yeah, it seems like there's a lot of Eberron authors who haven't actually bothered to pay attention to naming conventions and the like.
Splendide 06-14-07, 10:27 AM	Nonetheless, the people of the Five Nations have a tendancy to overlook the other countries, so I suppose I'll dismiss this as Brelish propaganda....or as Zil...um...misinformation? Whatever the opposite of propaganda is. I'm sure there's a gnomish word for it.
Hellcow 06-14-07, 11:36 AM	...or as Zil...um...misinformation? Whatever the opposite of propaganda is. I'm sure there's a gnomish word for it. Please. This is Zilargo. There's a hundred words for it.
Amaril 06-14-07, 11:59 AM	Who the hell is responsible for this atrocity of a gnomish name? Tinker gnomes are from that other setting over there; keep the joke names out of this one kplsthanxbai. :gnash: It could be a pen name. :)
DragoonDarkfire 06-14-07, 12:02 PM	Please. This is Zilargo. There's a hundred words for it. I suppose the gnomeish language would consist like this. You have almost thirty variations of "friend" and "enemy". Things like... Trustworthy Friend, Untrustworthy Friend, Foolish Friend, Possible Enemy, Definite Enemy, Cunning Enemy, etc...?
DBlizzard 06-14-07, 04:57 PM	Yeah, it seems like there's a lot of Eberron authors who haven't actually bothered to pay attention to naming conventions and the like. I can name many people in the United States who were named by people who ignore the United States "naming conventions" (let's start with Frank Zappa's children). Just because there are standards doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.
Hellcow 06-14-07, 06:02 PM	I can name many people in the United States who were named by people who ignore the United States "naming conventions" (let's start with Frank Zappa's children). Just because there are standards doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. True. However, to throw my two crowns into the ring, my concern is the lack of the third name. Clan and family are vitally important to Zil culture. So if you name your gnome Filibuster Falen Faraday, I'm going to think it's a silly name, but yes, he could just have odd parents. I can still fit him into a the culture. Any Lyrris gnome is a distant relative of Alina Lorridan Lyrris. Any Lorridan Lyrris gnome is a member of her direct family, and that implies a network of connections and favors; kill Caidon Lorridan Lyrris, and you're looking at vengence from Alina. The Coin Lord of Stormreach isn't Lady Shadra; she's Lady Sel Shadra, because that's the information needed to place her in a social context (and she doesn't even live in Zilargo any more). So it's not that I choose to name my daughter Moon Unit instead of Mary. It's that it's like leaving off a character's security clearance in Paranoia. Without the third name, I'm missing a critical piece of information that tells me how the character fits into society, and in Zil culture, those family bonds are extremely important. Elaydren may be Elaydren Vown d'Cannith, but the Vown isn't THAT important in her daily life and she's only likely to use the middle name in formal circumstances. Meanwhile, Lysse Lyrriman d'Sivis uses her full name all the time; the standing of the families within the house is a great game, along with their standing in Zilargo itself. When she meets a strange gnome, the addition of the Lyrriman will make a tremendous difference in their reaction to her. So in my writing, any gnome who doesn't use the three name convention either has no ties to Zil culture, or is intentionally concealing his family identity... something that is a suspicious act among gnomes. BUT... again, that's me having a special interest in gnome culture. The section on gnome names was trimmed from the ECS and PGtE (though the naming convention is in place in the ECS, Sharn, and anything else I've written), so to be aware of it you need to have read either the Gnome Dragonshard or the gnome section of Races of Eberron (though again, if you pay attention to folks like Lysse Lyrriman d'Sivis, Madra Sil Sarin, etc, the tradition is present in the early books). As much as I'd like them to, I don't expect every author to have read every one of the web articles; I haven't read every one of the web articles. And some people will say that RoE isn't an Eberron core book, despite the fact that the gnome section specifically discusses the culture of Zilargo. So I'm not surprised to see a gnome NPC who fails to follow this convention, and I don't think it harms the book in a significant way. It's just a personal point of disappointment.
The Dreaming Duck 06-14-07, 06:12 PM	my concern is the lack of the third name. That's what I was referring to as well. Augusta Wainwocket may not sound especially Zil to me, but it's the lack of the third name on a character who's a "renowned librarian" that bothers me. If she's so renowned, she's a source of pride and influence to her family. You could argue that maybe she's chose to severe her ties to her family, but from what I've read of Zil culture, once you turn your back on your family you'll have a very hard time - they're your one rock in dangerous water. So I don't see it as being a choice, I think it was just someone not paying attention to earlier NPCs (say, Dorius Alyre Korran, the founder of the Library where Augusta's so renowned), or RoE. I haven't seen the book yet, and so far people have been saying it's a good book, so I doubt this indicates a lack of knowledge with the setting (one of the authors being James Wyatt, after all) - it's just a slip that bugs us gnome fans.
Bluebrush 06-15-07, 04:21 PM	Whatever the opposite of propaganda is.Adnagaporp? It's a fun word to say at least.
gensuke626 06-15-07, 08:58 PM	Personally, I'm willing to give the Dark Lanterns the edge because I do see Breland as, when it comes down to it, the most roguish of the Five Nations. I mentioned on another thread the idea that for all their love of freedom, Breland was a hotbed for corruption and crime... meaning both that before the war, Citadel agents were dealing with wilier prey than their counterparts in other nations, and that when the war began Breland had more weaselly people to draw on. I have no doubt that Aundair has better arcane support for its agents. But essentially, Aundair has always placed its values on intelligence and magic; I feel that Breland has always had a little more respect for charisma and street smarts, both of which help an agent. So I think that they will have different styles - more "gadgets" for the Royal Eyes, maybe a few levels in wizard or magewright to back up expert or rogue - while the Dark Lanterns will be better at flat-out spycraft. On the other hand, as I said, intrigue permeates every level of life in Zilargo, and it's already been noted that Zilargo has a far higher percentage of experts and bards than most nations to reflect this; a Zil farmer is likely to have levels in Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), and Sense Motive in addition to his Profession skill and Handle Animal, because those are simply everyday skills in Zilargo. So when THEY go to pick the best of their best spies, you should worry. (Side note: many Zil "bards" use Oratory as their means of performance; they are capable of inspiring people, but they make inspiring speeches as opposed to singing.) So...To relate this to popular Culture... The Dark Lanterns are like the Impossible Missions Force The Royal Eyes are like "00 agents" of MI6 The Gnomes of Zilargo are like the Medici. Is that close?