"Lucky Sabletufts" Completely Wrong? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Lucky Sabletufts" Completely Wrong? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Good Agnostic
02-27-06, 04:30 PM From the Article:

The statuettes remained in House Orien hands until they were purchased by Tybalt ir’Rhannock in a private auction shortly after the start of the Last War. When Breland commissioned ir’Rhannock as a naval officer, he brought the Lucky Sabletufts with him to sea. His war galley, the Providential Order, went down with all hands during the Battle of Mannasher’s Point in 985. But ir’Rhannock’s footlocker containing the statuettes was recovered amid the flotsam after the battle.

The Lucky Sabletufts were thus the property of the Breland Navy until a war surplus auction last year. Kant purchased them and has prominently displayed them in private but well-attended art exhibits throughout the fall and winter.

Question:

Are there no laws of inheritance in Breland? I mean, if one dies, one's worldly possessions are distributed according to a will or codicil of some sort, right? If you don't have a will, then the default laws of probate: spouse, if no spouse - children, if no children - parents, if no living parents - siblings, if no siblings - other family etc... No?

I fail to see how these extremely valuable items became the property of the Navy after the officer was killed in action. It would be an outrage for the Brelish military to, for all intents and purposes, loot their own fallen servicemembers.

Is this article just completely, fundamentally wrong - or am I missing something?

GA
Damien_Hiro
02-27-06, 04:50 PM Apparently there were no heirs to claim the statues, so I can see the Navy keeping them.
Adhevan
02-27-06, 04:55 PM I fail to see how these extremely valuable items became the property of the Navy after the officer was killed in action. It would be an outrage for the Brelish military to, for all intents and purposes, loot their own fallen servicemembers.

Is this article just completely, fundamentally wrong - or am I missing something?

GA

If the items had been in his home when he died, then I'm sure the normal rules of inheritance would have applied. Since they were salvaged from a shipwreck, rules of salvage would apply. I don't recall any supplement ever defining these laws, but a reasonable assumption would be that they belong to whoever salvages them. In this case, it was the Brelish Navy. If it had been private citizens who had found the items, they would probably be subject to a hefty tax if the objects were found in a specific nation's territorial waters. But this is just a guess on my part.
Kid SixXx
02-27-06, 08:08 PM Is this article just completely, fundamentally wrong - or am I missing something?

1. If the Admiral had no next of kin, the statues would belong to the Brelish navy via Right of Salvage.

2. If the Admiral had willed the statues to the Brelish navy, they would become property of the Brelish navy unless living relatives contested the will.

Circumstance #2 happens a lot when someone wills land or property to a charity (museams have this problem on more than one occasion), and living relatives contest the will to claim the land or the personal effects.

The next of kin often cite coersion as their reason. They have to prove that the instution in question used undue pressure and made the owner will the property under duress.
Good Agnostic
02-27-06, 11:01 PM Thanks, these are all good replies so far.

Yes, if there were no heirs, then title transfers to the state (here, Navy as salvage). But, not having any heirs is a very, very rare circumstance. While it explains the results in the article, I think it should have been mentioned; to at least make the point.

Here is my reason: many adventurers think that if they kill someone, the stuff becomes theirs. In isolated areas, this may be true. But if you slay the evil Prince, you don't get the castle. Title for the Castle passes according to local laws of inheritance.

If I were to run this article as an adventure, I'd say the folks who have recovered the statues are the actual rightful heirs, perhaps a sibling of the fallen Captain.
Beleriphon
02-27-06, 11:11 PM If I were to run this article as an adventure, I'd say the folks who have recovered the statues are the actual rightful heirs, perhaps a sibling of the fallen Captain.

I think you're thinking to hard on this one. Eberrron isn't Earth, and certainly isn't the US (or other modern western nation) so at some level I don't feel that certain laws, or modern sensibilities really apply. Even if one wanted to make them apply the stuff is clearly salvage, stupidly valuable salvage, but salvage none the less.

In alot of ways it would be like finding a bunch of stuff from the carribean waters that one could conclusively prove belonged to an ancestor of a current family. Anybody that finds the stuff, and claims it with proper salvage laws, is the proper owner. It doesn't matter what the current descendants say about the matter.

I suppose another way to look at it would be like this. What if the Mona Lisa sank with a ship transporting across the Atlantic. Of course there would be frantic search, but ultimately the priceless painting is deamed lost. Some years later a lucky salvage dude finds the painting, so technically its his, same with all the stuff on the Titanic. Legally it belongs to the guy that found the ship, but he decided to not salvage any of it.
Kid SixXx
02-28-06, 05:27 AM I suppose another way to look at it would be like this. What if the Mona Lisa sank with a ship transporting across the Atlantic. Of course there would be frantic search, but ultimately the priceless painting is deamed lost. Some years later a lucky salvage dude finds the painting, so technically its his, same with all the stuff on the Titanic. Legally it belongs to the guy that found the ship, but he decided to not salvage any of it.

Well, I think the Mona Lisa would be different since it already (and clearly) belongs to the French government. At best, the French government would owe the finder some monetary compensation for recovering the work.

There are quite a few instances where right of salvage could be contested, or simply does not apply.

IIRC, there is no right of salvage laws that cover outer space, and anything which shows free & clear ownership is also excluded.

The Lucky Sabletufts were not state property, but they do have line of ownership to the Admiral.

If the Admiral had living next of kin, they could claim the salvaged statues, but possibly signed waivers to avoid finders fees (ownership may have been more trouble than it was worth, or maybe his family secretly hated those silly statues), or perhaps merely allowed the Brelish navy to keep the statues.
Beleriphon
02-28-06, 03:05 PM If the Admiral had living next of kin, they could claim the salvaged statues, but possibly signed waivers to avoid finders fees (ownership may have been more trouble than it was worth, or maybe his family secretly hated those silly statues), or perhaps merely allowed the Brelish navy to keep the statues.

Certainly possible, but I'd again like to point that we're using modern western sensibilities to determine rights of ownership and salvage. Things the Brelish navy doesn't really have to contend with, being neither a western nation of earth, nor modern.

If one wanted salvage laws I'd look to the Renaissance for similar laws. As for what those may be, I'm at a loss, not having access to a research library, or historical records dating back that far.
Euangelion
02-28-06, 03:09 PM I could see there being a blanket regulation that any item recovered from a sunken or otherwise destroyed vessel of the royal navy belongs to the crown. It would then be up to the crown to determine the ultimate disposition of each item.
Kid SixXx
02-28-06, 05:32 PM Certainly possible, but I'd again like to point that we're using modern western sensibilities to determine rights of ownership and salvage. Things the Brelish navy doesn't really have to contend with, being neither a western nation of earth, nor modern.

True enough, but given that Dragonmarked houses with quite a few western notions of commerce exist in Eberron, I don't find it a stretch to apply some western sensibilities concerning rights of ownership to the setting.

Or at least not to Breland, or any of the other Five Nations for that matter.

I do agree that the laws, customs & practices of Khorvaire do not necessarily have to exactly mirror real life.
Good Agnostic
03-01-06, 06:53 PM OK, so let's take a look aat inheritance in renaissance England (an obvious model for Breland):

Visit: http://renaissance.dm.net/compendium/41.html

You will see:

Heirs and Inheritance

Male primogeniture is the rule. That is, the eldest son inherits everything (including debts) unless provision is otherwise made for younger sons. In particular, he gets the title if there is one.

This applies even if the oldest child is a girl.

In very rare occasions, a title and lands may pass in the female line. For example, a secondary title to the Manners earls of Rutland is the barony of DeRoos (one of the oldest in the kingdom), in which the title passes simply to the eldest child, regardless of gender. Although her younger cousin (as eldest male) became the earl, Lady Elizabeth Manners (as eldest child) became the Baroness de Roos in her own right.

A will takes into account provision for a daughter's dowry, which the heir is bound to honour.

When a peer dies leaving a minor heir, that child becomes a ward of the Crown. That is, the Crown takes responsibility for the education and marriage of the heir until he comes of age at 21.

The costs of this responsibility are paid out of the third of the deceased peer's estate that is dedicated to the upbringing of the heir as a Crown ward. The Office of Master of Wards (held for a long time by Burghley) is a very lucrative one.

Often some other nobleman applies to buy the marriage rights of such a ward, and takes the responsibility for the child's upbringing. Usually this means taking the child into his own home. Sometimes the heir's mother may buy the rights herself.

When the heir comes of age, he must sue the crown for the return of his livery and maintenance.

An heiress is a daughter with no brothers and no clear male heirs. If there are several girls, they will be co-heiresses. (This can get complex. Consult a herald.)

In a noble family, when there are only daughters and no clear male heir, the girls inherit the property and the title goes into abeyance until or unless a male heir can be proved.

A bastard is a child born out of wedlock. By law, any child born in wedlock is legitimate, with some exceptions. If you are living openly with another man and having his children, your lawful husband doesn't have to accept them as his own.

A bastard is often called a natural child. Illegitimate children can be legitimated only by royal decree.
Beleriphon
03-02-06, 04:56 AM Interesting... it doesn't really make clear what happens with no heir, or how the Crown could come into possession of such an item.

As a thought perhaps the Crown of Breland repossessed the statues as part of a payment that the good captain was owing. Perhaps for his ship, equipment, or even some other bill that that navy footed for him.
Neverwrong
03-02-06, 05:34 AM They are the army. An extremely large well armed body of men. What STOPS them from just taking it?
Beleriphon
03-02-06, 08:03 AM They are the army. An extremely large well armed body of men. What STOPS them from just taking it?

You make an excellent point. Whats to stop the navy from saying the he sank the ship, so its payment. As far as I can see, not a whole lot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Good Agnostic 02-27-06, 04:30 PM	From the Article: The statuettes remained in House Orien hands until they were purchased by Tybalt ir’Rhannock in a private auction shortly after the start of the Last War. When Breland commissioned ir’Rhannock as a naval officer, he brought the Lucky Sabletufts with him to sea. His war galley, the Providential Order, went down with all hands during the Battle of Mannasher’s Point in 985. But ir’Rhannock’s footlocker containing the statuettes was recovered amid the flotsam after the battle. The Lucky Sabletufts were thus the property of the Breland Navy until a war surplus auction last year. Kant purchased them and has prominently displayed them in private but well-attended art exhibits throughout the fall and winter. Question: Are there no laws of inheritance in Breland? I mean, if one dies, one's worldly possessions are distributed according to a will or codicil of some sort, right? If you don't have a will, then the default laws of probate: spouse, if no spouse - children, if no children - parents, if no living parents - siblings, if no siblings - other family etc... No? I fail to see how these extremely valuable items became the property of the Navy after the officer was killed in action. It would be an outrage for the Brelish military to, for all intents and purposes, loot their own fallen servicemembers. Is this article just completely, fundamentally wrong - or am I missing something? GA
Damien_Hiro 02-27-06, 04:50 PM	Apparently there were no heirs to claim the statues, so I can see the Navy keeping them.
Adhevan 02-27-06, 04:55 PM	I fail to see how these extremely valuable items became the property of the Navy after the officer was killed in action. It would be an outrage for the Brelish military to, for all intents and purposes, loot their own fallen servicemembers. Is this article just completely, fundamentally wrong - or am I missing something? GA If the items had been in his home when he died, then I'm sure the normal rules of inheritance would have applied. Since they were salvaged from a shipwreck, rules of salvage would apply. I don't recall any supplement ever defining these laws, but a reasonable assumption would be that they belong to whoever salvages them. In this case, it was the Brelish Navy. If it had been private citizens who had found the items, they would probably be subject to a hefty tax if the objects were found in a specific nation's territorial waters. But this is just a guess on my part.
Kid SixXx 02-27-06, 08:08 PM	Is this article just completely, fundamentally wrong - or am I missing something? 1. If the Admiral had no next of kin, the statues would belong to the Brelish navy via Right of Salvage. 2. If the Admiral had willed the statues to the Brelish navy, they would become property of the Brelish navy unless living relatives contested the will. Circumstance #2 happens a lot when someone wills land or property to a charity (museams have this problem on more than one occasion), and living relatives contest the will to claim the land or the personal effects. The next of kin often cite coersion as their reason. They have to prove that the instution in question used undue pressure and made the owner will the property under duress.
Good Agnostic 02-27-06, 11:01 PM	Thanks, these are all good replies so far. Yes, if there were no heirs, then title transfers to the state (here, Navy as salvage). But, not having any heirs is a very, very rare circumstance. While it explains the results in the article, I think it should have been mentioned; to at least make the point. Here is my reason: many adventurers think that if they kill someone, the stuff becomes theirs. In isolated areas, this may be true. But if you slay the evil Prince, you don't get the castle. Title for the Castle passes according to local laws of inheritance. If I were to run this article as an adventure, I'd say the folks who have recovered the statues are the actual rightful heirs, perhaps a sibling of the fallen Captain.
Beleriphon 02-27-06, 11:11 PM	If I were to run this article as an adventure, I'd say the folks who have recovered the statues are the actual rightful heirs, perhaps a sibling of the fallen Captain. I think you're thinking to hard on this one. Eberrron isn't Earth, and certainly isn't the US (or other modern western nation) so at some level I don't feel that certain laws, or modern sensibilities really apply. Even if one wanted to make them apply the stuff is clearly salvage, stupidly valuable salvage, but salvage none the less. In alot of ways it would be like finding a bunch of stuff from the carribean waters that one could conclusively prove belonged to an ancestor of a current family. Anybody that finds the stuff, and claims it with proper salvage laws, is the proper owner. It doesn't matter what the current descendants say about the matter. I suppose another way to look at it would be like this. What if the Mona Lisa sank with a ship transporting across the Atlantic. Of course there would be frantic search, but ultimately the priceless painting is deamed lost. Some years later a lucky salvage dude finds the painting, so technically its his, same with all the stuff on the Titanic. Legally it belongs to the guy that found the ship, but he decided to not salvage any of it.
Kid SixXx 02-28-06, 05:27 AM	I suppose another way to look at it would be like this. What if the Mona Lisa sank with a ship transporting across the Atlantic. Of course there would be frantic search, but ultimately the priceless painting is deamed lost. Some years later a lucky salvage dude finds the painting, so technically its his, same with all the stuff on the Titanic. Legally it belongs to the guy that found the ship, but he decided to not salvage any of it. Well, I think the Mona Lisa would be different since it already (and clearly) belongs to the French government. At best, the French government would owe the finder some monetary compensation for recovering the work. There are quite a few instances where right of salvage could be contested, or simply does not apply. IIRC, there is no right of salvage laws that cover outer space, and anything which shows free & clear ownership is also excluded. The Lucky Sabletufts were not state property, but they do have line of ownership to the Admiral. If the Admiral had living next of kin, they could claim the salvaged statues, but possibly signed waivers to avoid finders fees (ownership may have been more trouble than it was worth, or maybe his family secretly hated those silly statues), or perhaps merely allowed the Brelish navy to keep the statues.
Beleriphon 02-28-06, 03:05 PM	If the Admiral had living next of kin, they could claim the salvaged statues, but possibly signed waivers to avoid finders fees (ownership may have been more trouble than it was worth, or maybe his family secretly hated those silly statues), or perhaps merely allowed the Brelish navy to keep the statues. Certainly possible, but I'd again like to point that we're using modern western sensibilities to determine rights of ownership and salvage. Things the Brelish navy doesn't really have to contend with, being neither a western nation of earth, nor modern. If one wanted salvage laws I'd look to the Renaissance for similar laws. As for what those may be, I'm at a loss, not having access to a research library, or historical records dating back that far.
Euangelion 02-28-06, 03:09 PM	I could see there being a blanket regulation that any item recovered from a sunken or otherwise destroyed vessel of the royal navy belongs to the crown. It would then be up to the crown to determine the ultimate disposition of each item.
Kid SixXx 02-28-06, 05:32 PM	Certainly possible, but I'd again like to point that we're using modern western sensibilities to determine rights of ownership and salvage. Things the Brelish navy doesn't really have to contend with, being neither a western nation of earth, nor modern. True enough, but given that Dragonmarked houses with quite a few western notions of commerce exist in Eberron, I don't find it a stretch to apply some western sensibilities concerning rights of ownership to the setting. Or at least not to Breland, or any of the other Five Nations for that matter. I do agree that the laws, customs & practices of Khorvaire do not necessarily have to exactly mirror real life.
Good Agnostic 03-01-06, 06:53 PM	OK, so let's take a look aat inheritance in renaissance England (an obvious model for Breland): Visit: http://renaissance.dm.net/compendium/41.html You will see: Heirs and Inheritance Male primogeniture is the rule. That is, the eldest son inherits everything (including debts) unless provision is otherwise made for younger sons. In particular, he gets the title if there is one. This applies even if the oldest child is a girl. In very rare occasions, a title and lands may pass in the female line. For example, a secondary title to the Manners earls of Rutland is the barony of DeRoos (one of the oldest in the kingdom), in which the title passes simply to the eldest child, regardless of gender. Although her younger cousin (as eldest male) became the earl, Lady Elizabeth Manners (as eldest child) became the Baroness de Roos in her own right. A will takes into account provision for a daughter's dowry, which the heir is bound to honour. When a peer dies leaving a minor heir, that child becomes a ward of the Crown. That is, the Crown takes responsibility for the education and marriage of the heir until he comes of age at 21. The costs of this responsibility are paid out of the third of the deceased peer's estate that is dedicated to the upbringing of the heir as a Crown ward. The Office of Master of Wards (held for a long time by Burghley) is a very lucrative one. Often some other nobleman applies to buy the marriage rights of such a ward, and takes the responsibility for the child's upbringing. Usually this means taking the child into his own home. Sometimes the heir's mother may buy the rights herself. When the heir comes of age, he must sue the crown for the return of his livery and maintenance. An heiress is a daughter with no brothers and no clear male heirs. If there are several girls, they will be co-heiresses. (This can get complex. Consult a herald.) In a noble family, when there are only daughters and no clear male heir, the girls inherit the property and the title goes into abeyance until or unless a male heir can be proved. A bastard is a child born out of wedlock. By law, any child born in wedlock is legitimate, with some exceptions. If you are living openly with another man and having his children, your lawful husband doesn't have to accept them as his own. A bastard is often called a natural child. Illegitimate children can be legitimated only by royal decree.
Beleriphon 03-02-06, 04:56 AM	Interesting... it doesn't really make clear what happens with no heir, or how the Crown could come into possession of such an item. As a thought perhaps the Crown of Breland repossessed the statues as part of a payment that the good captain was owing. Perhaps for his ship, equipment, or even some other bill that that navy footed for him.
Neverwrong 03-02-06, 05:34 AM	They are the army. An extremely large well armed body of men. What STOPS them from just taking it?
Beleriphon 03-02-06, 08:03 AM	They are the army. An extremely large well armed body of men. What STOPS them from just taking it? You make an excellent point. Whats to stop the navy from saying the he sank the ship, so its payment. As far as I can see, not a whole lot.