Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yamo 07-10-04, 11:14 PM	Are there any, or are all humans Caucasian? I didn't notice any in the art.
EvilDrPuma 07-10-04, 11:38 PM	Well, first, none of those humans are caucasian--there are no Caucasus Mountains on Eberron. (Who? Me? Pedantic?) :smirk: Seriously...I've seen nothing in the book about human "races" or regional populations, and since humans have only been on Khorvaire for three thousand years, it may well be that little or no populational variation has appeared by 998 YK. That doesn't mean that those unvaried humans should necessarily look like Europeans, though. I wouldn't be surprised if, since D&D has such strong roots in European traditions of folklore and fantasy, nobody really thought about whether Eberronean humans "should" look like Europeans or not. Since Eberron isn't meant to be based on any real-world population or culture, I might consider establishing a different look for Eberronean humans in any game I ran.
JohnnyONeal 07-11-04, 12:37 AM	Good question! I get the sense that things are pretty mixed in Eberron, but the art certainly does show mostly light-skinned people. Early concept art showed dark-skinned "Argonnessen barbarians" (perhaps Seren barbarians) who resembled real-world Africans or Australians. At the moment, we probably have to wait for more images to really know what's up. If I were an artist and I were drawing Eberron pictures, I'd probably use a wide range of skin colors and facial features, mixing them to show a diverse heritage recalling elements of real-world Europeans, Americans, Africans, and Asians.
Xilshale 07-11-04, 12:40 AM	comes back to the need for a rundown on races (and human sub cultures if any) and regions look, style of clothing/jewelry/tattooing/piercing etc.
JBW 07-11-04, 01:11 AM	If I were an artist and I were drawing Eberron pictures, I'd probably use a wide range of skin colors and facial features I would not. I have no problem with the idea that all of Khorvaire's humans share similar (in this case, light-skinned)appearances. People never seem to care that there are no dark-skinned halflings, so why humans? No one cares if you only have dark-skinned dwarves or if all elves have asian-looking features. It's a fantasy world where "race" means something other than what we commonly think of in our world. Jay
JohnnyONeal 07-11-04, 10:55 AM	I would not. I have no problem with the idea that all of Khorvaire's humans share similar (in this case, light-skinned)appearances. People never seem to care that there are no dark-skinned halflings, so why humans?That's a good point, but humans in D&D are supposed to be the most populous, widespread race, and seem to have more adaptable genetics than other races. Humans are all over the place; halflings are from a relatively small nation. Just to clarify my thoughts on the subject, I'd incorporate diverse races reasons for two reasons. It makes sense: Eberron is an Earth-sized world, and Khorvaire incorporates people from all of its continents. It seems natural that different features and skin pigmentation would develop over time, then blend together to varying degrees in the most cosmopolitan areas. It gives players options: Some people simply feel more comfortable playing a particular race, often their own. If nothing else, it adds color to a world if skin color is a variable. It's not necessary -- the Lord of the Rings movies do a good job making the different human nations look distinct without changing skin color -- but I like it.
Hellcow 07-11-04, 11:32 AM	While we will be going into differences in culture in more detail in the future, skin color is something that will be largely left to the player. Darker or lighter skin may be more common in certain areas -- for example, under the brutal sun of the Demon Wastes -- but we're not going to say "All inhabitants of Thrane are Seawallasian." In Breland, we're talking about a nation that's two thousand miles from edge to edge; there's a significant amount of room for climate variation and regional adaptation. And hey, it's a fantasy world. Do what you want with it.
JBW 07-11-04, 11:53 AM	That's a good point, but humans in D&D are supposed to be the most populous, widespread race, and seem to have more adaptable genetics than other races. The word "genetics" has no place in D&D. This is a game where you can have a Half-X, Half-Y, Half-Z race by applying templates... I'm also fairly vertain that, while humans are more populous than many races in Khorvaire, they only make up about 30-35% of the population. this is much less than in most fantasy worlds. It makes sense: Not really. If you want to make sense, then you need to have various ethnicities for all of the races. just doing it for humans does not make sense. It gives players options: So do subraces, such as tallfellow halflings and forest gnomes, but Hellcow has stated that Eberron frowns upon subraces. Some people simply feel more comfortable playing a particular race, often their own. In 99% of players, this would be human, right? I don't think that anywhere near 99% of players have human characters, so I can't even remotely agree with this argument. Jay
OtherNiceMan 07-11-04, 11:57 AM	Originally posted by Yamo Are there any, or are all humans Caucasian? I didn't notice any in the art. If it really bother you that much check out the back cover of "Shadows of the Last War' adventure. :D
Red_Decker 07-11-04, 11:59 AM	The real question for skin color for those that care is where do origins lay for humans. I you believe Evolution humans started with darker skin to help protect against harmful UV rays. As they moved north into colder climates the skin didn't need such protection and grew lighter. If you believe biblical humans started with arabian decent and science shows that a middle tan/brown can produce a wide variety of skin colors from pale white to dark brown. If humans are an offshoot of elves then they'd most likely be pale skinned and the cultures of the Demon wastes and such areas would slowly develop darker skin tones. enough science. I agree that It's what the player wants. If they want a black halfling then there is nothing to stop them. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Hellcow 07-11-04, 12:14 PM	Originally posted by JBW So do subraces, such as tallfellow halflings and forest gnomes, but Hellcow has stated that Eberron frowns upon subraces. There's a big difference in my eyes between a halfling that has dark skin instead of light skin -- which I'd allow in a heartbeat -- and a halfling that has a +2 Strength modifier instead of a +2 Dex modifier. I dislike what implies a significant physiological change for cultural reasons when humans do not have such changes, and I dislike changing the role that a race is supposed to fill in the game. Changing cosmetic details is something that I consider a trivial matter that should be up to the player. I see no reason not to allow different ethnicities among any race -- there's a significant difference in my mind between ethnicity and subrace.
Von Ether 07-11-04, 01:17 PM	I guess it is a matter of perception, literally. When I look at the humans on p. 11, I see the two women as being darker than the males. The full lips also add to the the impression. The deathless elf on p. 14 also seems darker to me and has thick braids or dreads in her hair. And the shifter on p. 19 is definately not a goth or Irish lass. Perhaps part of it that I live near Miami, where I see a lot of cultures on a monthly basis, from Haitian to Brazilian. I have seen dark Europeans and blondes who hail for Jamacia. I also know quite a few people who have mixed decent, like Puerto Rican and Jamacian and they look a lot like the human girl on the far left of p. 11.
mojo_202 07-11-04, 01:35 PM	I'm with Hellcow on this one. I think that, and have always thought that, players can choose whatever ethnicity they want for their characters. I've played with off-violet elves with orange hair, and white, and I mean literally white, halflings named ghost. As long as it doesn't change the way the game is played I'll allow pretty much anything when it comes to what a character looks like.
Red_Decker 07-11-04, 01:49 PM	Originally posted by Von Ether I guess it is a matter of perception, literally. When I look at the humans on p. 11, I see the two women as being darker than the males. The full lips also add to the the impression. The deathless elf on p. 14 also seems darker to me and has thick braids or dreads in her hair. And the shifter on p. 19 is definately not a goth or Irish lass. Perhaps part of it that I live near Miami, where I see a lot of cultures on a monthly basis, from Haitian to Brazilian. I have seen dark Europeans and blondes who hail for Jamacia. I also know quite a few people who have mixed decent, like Puerto Rican and Jamacian and they look a lot like the human girl on the far left of p. 11. After you mentioned it I noticed the same. The shifter however seems to have light skin and is shifting into a darker complection. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Torillan 07-11-04, 02:08 PM	Originally posted by mojo_202 I'm with Hellcow on this one. I think that, and have always thought that, players can choose whatever ethnicity they want for their characters. I've played with off-violet elves with orange hair, and white, and I mean literally white, halflings named ghost. As long as it doesn't change the way the game is played I'll allow pretty much anything when it comes to what a character looks like. Amen. Besides, in the RW, there are, anthropologically speaking, only 3 "races" of humans, based solely on facial bone structure: Caucasoids, Negroids, and Mongoloids. Skin color has little or nothing to do with "race". For example, the Aboriginal people of Australia are considered Caucasoid, again based on facial bone structure, NOT the color of their skin. Just my 2 cents (unadjusted for inflation) :D
stembolt 07-11-04, 04:58 PM	As I recall humans came in two major waves and when they came they settled in widely spread distinct areas. This seems to me to give enough variety that any amount of racial variation is possible. Given the lightening rail any group could move to any other location. What that boils down to is there is no reason humans have to look like the same ethnicity and any ethnicity could be found anywhere. There are a couple of interesting racial bits however. The royal families are for the most part related. Chances are they resemble each other strongly, but by the same token there is no reason (other than happenstance) why they would look like their subjects. The dragonmarked houses each follow a specific bloodline. Chances are they have specific characteristics (hair and eye color for example) that might be used for flavor.
Thondred 07-11-04, 05:05 PM	Take a look here (http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/humanbarbarians.gif) . They look of color enough. The link to that dubs the subjects as Argonnessen barbarians. That is of course from Jhonen Olain's Eberron Journal.
Kuma 07-13-04, 05:25 AM	Originally posted by Thondred Take a look here (http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/humanbarbarians.gif) . They look of color enough. The link to that dubs the subjects as Argonnessen barbarians. That is of course from Jhonen Olain's Eberron Journal. Of course, they're also labelled 'barbarians'.
Masakado 07-13-04, 11:18 AM	*chimes in with the choir* The bane of many settings is that real-world analogies creep into them, and then folks scream bloody murder when their particular ethnicity is either not portrayed at all, or not portrayed to their liking. I tend to keep Humans on Eberron as monolithic as possible, much like ERB's "Red Men" of Mars, and vary skin tone by geographical regions. Certainly, as the setting develops we'll be able to inject enough cultural morays to allow us to make some links to real-world cultures as a point of reference, but overall I try to keep Humans on Eberron as their ilk, and don't try to shoehorn the real-world references.
Sulaco 07-13-04, 12:29 PM	I've not much to add specifcally in regards to Eberron, but this quote (from Terry Pratchett's Witche's Abroad pretty much sums up how I think the whole issue of ethnicity would shake out in pretty much all fantasy settings: "Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because — what with trolls and dwarfs and so on — speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."
LordofIllusions 07-13-04, 12:46 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow While we will be going into differences in culture in more detail in the future, skin color is something that will be largely left to the player. Darker or lighter skin may be more common in certain areas -- for example, under the brutal sun of the Demon Wastes -- but we're not going to say "All inhabitants of Thrane are Seawallasian." In Breland, we're talking about a nation that's two thousand miles from edge to edge; there's a significant amount of room for climate variation and regional adaptation. And hey, it's a fantasy world. Do what you want with it. I agree wholeheartedly with Keith. A similar thread was started on the Forgotten Realms boards back in the day-before the Eberron boards were up- and all it led to was a bunch of racist statements and heavy debates on character race. Basically NOTHING good came of it. Like Keith said Eberron is YOUR world so do what YOU want with it. In my campaigns the MAJORITY of people are Nubian/black whereas in someone ELSE'S campaign they may be Caucasian/white. ~~~
Thondred 07-13-04, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by Kuma Of course, they're also labelled 'barbarians'. So?
LordofIllusions 07-13-04, 01:29 PM	Originally posted by Thondred So? I think what the poster was HINTING at was the dark complexioned inhabitants of Eberron being portrayed as BARBARIANS could be, and probably SHOULD be, seen as offensive. As I said NOTHING good can come of a discussion like this except it serving to ignite racial prejudices, etc. ~~~
coolraygun 07-13-04, 01:41 PM	On the line of skin variations for non humans... I like Drow elves, they just appeal to me, however... I always thought that a "dark elf" should have been very pale skinned, almost albino... So here is my vote for some really pasty skinned dark elves popping up somewhere... :)
lukelightning 07-13-04, 03:14 PM	I wouldn't take the Argonesse Barbarians as evidence of racism. Sure, the fact that in this case the dark-skinned humans are barbarians; I can also point out a whole bunch of other worlds or stories in which white, nordic types are the barbarians. I do, however, agree that in some cases trying to be inclusive only perpetuates a stereotype; there is no reason for an "Asian" fantasy race to be martial artist dragon worshippers, or for an "African" fantasy race to be bush-dwelling lion warriors. Additionally, what we see as racial characterisics does not necessarily have to be included in a direct mirror of real humanity. There is no reason a dark-skinned human race should have curly hair, or that a northern mountain race be nordic looking.
Steven Snyder 07-13-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by Torillan Amen. Besides, in the RW, there are, anthropologically speaking, only 3 "races" of humans, based solely on facial bone structure: Caucasoids, Negroids, and Mongoloids. Skin color has little or nothing to do with "race". For example, the Aboriginal people of Australia are considered Caucasoid, again based on facial bone structure, NOT the color of their skin. Just my 2 cents (unadjusted for inflation) :D I did not know that Aboriginals were considers Caucasoid...Fascinating and no I am not being sarcastic.
Bryce 07-13-04, 04:41 PM	In a game where "race" means what if your human or elf or whatever skin color should'nt even be considered, you look how ever you want to look. In Eberron, humans developed in the north, on Sarlona, so lighter skin would be prevelant, if the world is like ours, the Seren barbarians, would be farther south, so more that likely be darker from being nearer the equator. Speaking of which where is the equator on Eberron? Now the same could be said of the drow, combine more sun with dark magic, and you've got dark elves, however I'm planning on keeping drow the exact same but instead of finding hidden doors, they get poison use.
Sulaco 07-13-04, 04:47 PM	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Torillan Amen. Besides, in the RW, there are, anthropologically speaking, only 3 "races" of humans, based solely on facial bone structure: Caucasoids, Negroids, and Mongoloids. Skin color has little or nothing to do with "race". For example, the Aboriginal people of Australia are considered Caucasoid, again based on facial bone structure, NOT the color of their skin. In the RW there is only one race. The idea that there were different "races" of humans was inspired by the different races of elephants - African and Asian. It was a quaint and long-since discredited theory with no scientific validity whatsoever.
Sulaco 07-13-04, 04:55 PM	Originally posted by lukelightning There is no reason a dark-skinned human race should have curly hair, or that a northern mountain race be nordic looking. Actually, there are. Dense, tightly-curled hair is - like large lips, broad noses, and dark skin - an evolutionary adaptation to the environment. They all offer advantages to UV absorption, heat disipation, etc… that make Africans ideally suited to their native environment.
JohnnyONeal 07-13-04, 05:55 PM	Discussions like this are always interesting, because of the ways they bleed into real-world perceptions of race. I'm of two minds about race. On one hand, it's a purely cultural phenomenon that we've focused on skin color when there are many features that make humans look similar and different from one another. Living in New York, I see people all the time who defy my automatic attempts at racial categorization. On the other hand, the fact that people look different is self-evident, and it's one of the things that makes life interesting. Learning about the genetic and environmental causes of the features we call "races" is always interesting. Anyway, while I really wasn't trying to get in a debate with JBW, I feel like his responses to my post raise a few interesting points. The word "genetics" has no place in D&D. This is a game where you can have a Half-X, Half-Y, Half-Z race by applying templates...That's like saying the word "gravity" has no place simply because supernatural flight exists. In Eberron, you've got dragonmarks that are passed on genetically. You've got humans as a diverse, adaptable race that can freely mix with elves and orcs. You've got a race of inbred elves, and the issue of their genetics specifically addressed. It's not something I'd ever want to get hung up on, but it's not a totally ridiculous thing to discuss. If you want to make sense, then you need to have various ethnicities for all of the races. just doing it for humans does not make sense.I never said there shouldn't be different ethnicities for other races. That makes sense, too! On the other hand, humans do seem more widespread than other races. Halflings are fairly recently from the same plains area; elves are from the jungle and have had relatively few generations; dwarves are from the icy north; gnomes are (presumably) from the forests around Zilargo. Humans are all over the place, and traveled from a very large continent where they seem to have been pretty widespread. Anyway, I agree that trying to approach this too scientifically is silly. My main point is that there's no reason NOT to have a fairly wide range of skin colors and "genetic" features. I like diverse worlds, so that's what I'll be playing.
Thondred 07-13-04, 05:58 PM	I hardly think the "African" portrayal of the Argonnessen Barbarians in the afforementioned picture to be evidence of racism. How many other races in D&D books have been portrayed as barbaric? In the RW, all races have had barbaric cultures at one point or another. I don't get offended when a D&D book portrays "white" races as barbarians... Why does being barbaric have to be an insult at any rate? Most barbaric cultures could be admired in several ways(less destructive to the natural world, etc).
Kobold Avenger 07-13-04, 10:38 PM	The thing about "babaric" potrayals about Africans is that it isn't accurate all of the time. First of all there are many different African ethnic groups, and many of them formed great civilizations at one time. Zimbabwe meant city of stone, and along with them there were other African civilizations. Many of these civilizations fell. The white man isn't the only one to blame, as a lot of blame can also be directed at arabs, and even at asians or other Africans.
Jimmy_Groove 07-14-04, 12:46 AM	I have a little world I designed for my games (which, strangely enough, Ebberron turned out very similar to. Guess great minds think alike). I solved the problems associated with race (you have to have it to be realistic, but it can lead to negative real-world comparisons) by have totally fictional, fantasy ethniticies. The primary contenient games started on, Alaria, featured a large, light-brown, strait-haired, thin-featured people and a short, stocky people with light skin patched with darker colors. Another continent had a very homogenous culture where humans typically had night-black skin, slightly reflective eyes of light shades, and very thin, fine hair.
Sulaco 07-14-04, 09:36 AM	Originally posted by lukelightning I do, however, agree that in some cases trying to be inclusive only perpetuates a stereotype; there is no reason for an "Asian" fantasy race to be martial artist dragon worshippers, or for an "African" fantasy race to be bush-dwelling lion warriors. I agree with this whole-heartedly. Having an ethnic "hook" gives the reader (or player) a real-world anaolgue to identify with which lends to verisimilitude, but I like to switch things up to also play with these preconceptions. I might have "Celtic" knights, "African" martial artists, and "Oriental" seafaring barbarians (like Vikings). This serves to reinforce the idea that this is a fantasy world and that, while they can get a basic idea of a group basic on it's RW cultural or ethnic basis, they cannot rely entirely on that RW analogue in the story or game.
WizO_Sith 07-14-04, 09:54 AM	OK Folks, here's the thing. Race has been (and, in some places, still *is*) one of the most divisive issues. Ever. So you can understand why it falls under the umbrella of "real-world political/religious/moral discussion" as per the WotC Online Code of Conduct (www.wizards.com/coc). As has been stated previously, nothing but flames can come out of this thread. This thread will be locked and I must insist that no further discussion of this nature take place. *Click*