"THE" Big Bad Boy... [Archive] - Wizards Community

"THE" Big Bad Boy... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Delazar
12-28-04, 06:55 AM LotR= Sauron
Forgotten Realms= Bane/Cyric
Greyhawk= Iuz
Dragonlance= Thakisis
Birthright= Gorgon
Dark sun= Borys
Ravenloft= Strahd

now... who is the ultimate bad guy in Eberron? personally, i can think of none else than The Dreaming Dark"...

The Gods of Eberron seem too distant, the Lord of Blades just doesn't seem that powerful, and the Daelkyrs and the Lords of Dust need to be dexribed a little better before being classified as the BBB... mayben one day we'll get the description of a Daelkyr Prince...

maybe Vol... but more than Sauron, she reminds me of Saruman (just to compare)...

what do you think?
MarkB
12-28-04, 07:05 AM Khyber.
Gez
12-28-04, 07:44 AM Forgotten Realms= Bane/Cyric
Greyhawk= Iuz

For both of these settings, I'd have to disagree about only one BBEG antagonist.

What about Tharizdun in Greyhawk, who (spoiler for Gygax's Gord the Rogue novels) eventually destroys the whole universe, entirely utterly and totally ? I don't know the GH setting very well, but despite Iuz's importance, he's hardly the only threat, or even the most dangerous.

What about, in the Realms, Larloch the Archlich, the various Zulkirs, the various lords of the Zentharim, etc. If you want a deific big bad one, then it would rather be Shar, the nihilistic goddess of Darkness, than either Mr "I've been killed once or twice already, and will probably be killed again in the future" Bane or Mr "I'm writing something that will drive anyone reading it crazy, now let me proofread it to see if it works..." Cyric. They're both losers. :)

Eberron, IMHO, is, like the two settings above, meant to be a RPG setting, rather than a movie/novel setting. While a single, seemingly all-powerful, opponents is great for the dynamics of a set story, it isn't that appropriate for an evolving setting. Despite all the stories that can be told about Arda, for example, you can't help but think there's nothing more to do once Sauron is vainquished. Players would say "what's the point?"

GH, FR, and Eberron, on the other hand, are written for the DM and the players to play for long campaigns within. Once an enemy is vainquished at the climactic end of a campaign, there's still room for more. If a DM doesn't like a villain's theme (for example, "don't want to have the Lord of Blades as the BBEG, the Skynet/Frankeinstein's Creature syndrom of an artificial race waging war against their creators is too cliché"), then he can use any of the other potential villains.

If your setting features one prominant villain, the setting will be about him, rather than about the heroes. And that's why, while it's excellent for telling non-interactive stories like in novels, comics, movies, etc. (Hitchcock used to say that a good villain was the most important thing: "The better the villain, the better the picture!"), it isn't as appropriate for RPGs.
Egres
12-28-04, 08:40 AM Here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=308236) the ultimate BBEG in Eberron! :D
CzarGarrett
12-28-04, 08:46 AM Eberron doesn't have/need an ultimate BBEG.

Moral ambiguity with dark cults and demons underground are enough.
Delazar
12-28-04, 11:13 AM thx for the comments/feedback !
Brianish
12-28-04, 11:33 AM Vol.

At least, given everything that's been published so far, she seems the major baddie. She's involved with the draconic prophecy, the elves, she's got her own religion, she's got her political fingers in a number of major nations, she's got her own island.

It's Vol.
CzarGarrett
12-28-04, 12:55 PM Vol.

At least, given everything that's been published so far, she seems the major baddie. She's involved with the draconic prophecy, the elves, she's got her own religion, she's got her political fingers in a number of major nations, she's got her own island.

It's Vol.

Except for the elves part, the Rahaskas work for that too.
Streamweaver
12-28-04, 01:08 PM Eberron isn't the setting of "The Big Bad", it's a complex and mysterious world and if you want to keep an air of intrigue at every turn you need to have them as different intriges and not just one.

Multiple bads are also the salvation of Eberron in many ways. Run across the Dreaming Dark as too powerful to take on alone, then set the Lords of Dust against them. One of the things that keep the multiple big bads in check isn't just a smiting from the forces of good, it's one of the other "big bads" using any weakness to assert their own agenda.
scaryfroman
12-28-04, 02:10 PM Well, i think it depends on how you look at it. The biggest powers on the planet (or planes) are either imprisoned or weakened by earlier events. Many of them have plans that would take millenia to unfold. Not really the BBEG mindset. Except for one.

"He" is a different kind of being.
"He" is looked upon by others of his kind as a savior or messiah
"He" has become a paragon of his race, emphasising his strengths and avoiding his weakenesses.
"He" has a stronghold nearly unreachable to all but the strongest of adventurers.
"He" leads an army of beings made for war.
"He" has grandiose plans for the world, most likely manifesting sooner or later.

We all know who I am talking about.
Bluebrush
12-28-04, 02:16 PM What is the ultimate villain in Eberron? Why you've already met it.
It is the darkness which lies at the heart of every man, woman and construct throughout the world, which fuels the evil and weakens the good.

Or no, wait, probably the Daelkyr.
Just another user
12-28-04, 03:24 PM Why! Hellcow, of course. :D
Grynn
12-28-04, 04:23 PM Why! Hellcow, of course. :D

He certainly fits the description scaryfroman gave :P
scaryfroman
12-28-04, 04:25 PM Who else would I be talking about? although, DnD geeks are hardly made for war...
Rinna
12-28-04, 04:38 PM Why! Hellcow, of course. :D

Ah, but he is one BBEG who cannot be defeated...as he is the creator of all things and has much more to do for the world. So the prophecy has told me.

Or was that, who so ever defeats the creator will do much for the world? Or it could have had something to do with evil pink bunny slippers. You can never tell with the Prophecy.

Rinna
hiryuu
12-28-04, 06:46 PM Well, yes. The great and mysterious Hellcow controls the Eldritch machine known only as the "Plot Device," a grand orrery of spinning gears and arching magical energy that generates the dragonmarks and causes stagnation of NPC power, as well as an intense need to create webs of complex conspiracy in the minds of nations, people, and the Houses. It blurs alignments and locks away the gods, making the world a darker place. Without the great Plot Device, Eberron would be just another world like Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
leopardmessiah
12-28-04, 07:19 PM Eberron doesn't have any sort of end-game boss or final villian, but Khyber could perhaps be considered the Ultimate Evil. That's not the same as a Big Bad or even the Big Bad though, it's not like you can kill him, even if the creation myth is taken literally.
Edymnion
12-28-04, 08:03 PM Exactly, the whole point is that Eberron has neither BBEGs nor BBGGs.
There is no one overlord of evil in the setting, just like there is no one all-good hero. Thats what makes the setting so great. There isn't any big stories that have already been told, everything is fresh. The BBEG for the campaign? Chances are, its going to be someone the DM invents, who will rise to power along with the PCs.

I'm getting flashbacks to the hobbit animated movies with the bard warbling on about "the greatest adventure is the one yet to be told..."
motorfirebox
12-28-04, 10:00 PM heh. if Hellcow goes down, Eberron goes with him. pretty much the ultimate in Retributive Strike (Ex).
Edymnion
12-28-04, 10:40 PM Nah, it won't go down. It'll fall to it's knees, but it won't die.
The books are printed, they're in our hands. As long as we keep playing it, Eberron shall never die! :D
Brianish
12-29-04, 12:25 AM Except for the elves part, the Rahaskas work for that too.

Rakshasas. Plural. Buddy's asking for the megavillain who most closely matches the archetype.

Besides, unless they've brought down a moon I didn't know about they're not as involved in the Draconic prophecy as Vol.
Bluebrush
12-29-04, 08:23 AM A suggestion no-one seems to have made.

Killer of millions. Orgins unknown. The ally of the Lord of Blades.

I speak of course of the Mournland. It's just sitting there for now, but it came out of no-where, and no-one knows if or when it could expand to swallow another nation.
hiryuu
12-29-04, 12:00 PM A suggestion no-one seems to have made.

Killer of millions. Orgins unknown. The ally of the Lord of Blades.

I speak of course of the Mournland. It's just sitting there for now, but it came out of no-where, and no-one knows if or when it could expand to swallow another nation.

Yeah, who knows. It may be a living spell: genesis for all we know.
scaryfroman
12-29-04, 01:21 PM Yeah, who knows. It may be a living spell: genesis for all we know.

:OMG!

You have blown my mind. Seriously, I'm not kidding here. This is a really good idea.
Hardware Jedi
12-29-04, 01:58 PM Here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=308236) the ultimate BBEG in Eberron! :D
:clap: :clap: :clap:

What a brilliant story!

I was gong to say Vol was the biggest and baddest, but now I realize there could be others.
hiryuu
12-29-04, 02:35 PM :OMG!

You have blown my mind. Seriously, I'm not kidding here. This is a really good idea.

First thing that came to mind when I heard "mist," "wasteland," and "no healing." It's a nifty idea, though. The very place itself becomes far more treacherous. You could, without warning, suddenly be hurled into a universe created by your own subconscious mind, strange visions may filter through the mist, and whole cities with people still living in them may be untouched, existing partially within the genesis plane.

And perhaps there is an open gate to Xoriat or some other realm just sitting out there somewhere.
Murr-Quan Lord #2
12-29-04, 09:45 PM The big, mega-evil villain is whomever the DM wants it to be. ^.^ And the Eberron Campaign Setting gives her tons of choices.

It'd probably be the Lord of Blades, in the campaign I'm planning.
Arcane Guyver
12-30-04, 01:08 AM Huh. Never thought of the Mournland as a sorta 'force of nature' BBEG.
clearshades
12-30-04, 01:46 AM Well I've alway thought that there were multiple BBEG in each settting. Don't forget Vecna for Greyhawk, I've always thought he was almost a force of nature.

Who are the BBEG of Eberron? If we're just talking about individuals as opposed to organizations or forces (like Khyber or the Dreaming Dark) then honestly I think Vol should be in the running. She's 18th level I believe (really high for Eberron) and she's the head of the Emerald Claw and has the remnants of the 13th mark.

Chris Tang
Edymnion
12-30-04, 01:47 AM First thing that came to mind when I heard "mist," "wasteland," and "no healing." It's a nifty idea, though. The very place itself becomes far more treacherous. You could, without warning, suddenly be hurled into a universe created by your own subconscious mind, strange visions may filter through the mist, and whole cities with people still living in them may be untouched, existing partially within the genesis plane.Which works well with Ghostwalk. Have the city of Manifest exist within the Mournlands.
Marshall Stone
12-30-04, 04:54 AM I'd like to nomiate:

Mordrain (sp?) the Fleshweaver
and/or
The Sisters of Sora Kell

Neither of which would you want to be in the debt of/too.
Bluebrush
12-30-04, 09:52 AM But ol' fleshweaver seems content to sit in his castle and not bother anyone.

He's like Ultima weapon in FF7. You don't bother him, and he doesn't bother you.
And he drops the ultimate greatsword when you defeat him for some reason.
RadicalTaoist
01-05-05, 07:35 PM Well, i think it depends on how you look at it. The biggest powers on the planet (or planes) are either imprisoned or weakened by earlier events. Many of them have plans that would take millenia to unfold. Not really the BBEG mindset. Except for one.

"He" is a different kind of being.
"He" is looked upon by others of his kind as a savior or messiah
"He" has become a paragon of his race, emphasising his strengths and avoiding his weakenesses.
"He" has a stronghold nearly unreachable to all but the strongest of adventurers.
"He" leads an army of beings made for war.
"He" has grandiose plans for the world, most likely manifesting sooner or later.

We all know who I am talking about."And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them."
Ezekiel 25:17, King James Bible
darkthought
01-06-05, 03:24 AM I'd say the Rakasha Rajahs would be the Big Bad. But I'd run it more like a Buffy the Vampire slayer thing. You'd never directly face the Rajah (who can have a divine rank of 5, according to Keith Baker) but you face it's minions and lesser rakashas. They'd try to free it/break the seals that bind it, and the PCs would attempt to prevent that from happening.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delazar 12-28-04, 06:55 AM	LotR= Sauron Forgotten Realms= Bane/Cyric Greyhawk= Iuz Dragonlance= Thakisis Birthright= Gorgon Dark sun= Borys Ravenloft= Strahd now... who is the ultimate bad guy in Eberron? personally, i can think of none else than The Dreaming Dark"... The Gods of Eberron seem too distant, the Lord of Blades just doesn't seem that powerful, and the Daelkyrs and the Lords of Dust need to be dexribed a little better before being classified as the BBB... mayben one day we'll get the description of a Daelkyr Prince... maybe Vol... but more than Sauron, she reminds me of Saruman (just to compare)... what do you think?
MarkB 12-28-04, 07:05 AM	Khyber.
Gez 12-28-04, 07:44 AM	Forgotten Realms= Bane/Cyric Greyhawk= Iuz For both of these settings, I'd have to disagree about only one BBEG antagonist. What about Tharizdun in Greyhawk, who (spoiler for Gygax's Gord the Rogue novels) eventually destroys the whole universe, entirely utterly and totally ? I don't know the GH setting very well, but despite Iuz's importance, he's hardly the only threat, or even the most dangerous. What about, in the Realms, Larloch the Archlich, the various Zulkirs, the various lords of the Zentharim, etc. If you want a deific big bad one, then it would rather be Shar, the nihilistic goddess of Darkness, than either Mr "I've been killed once or twice already, and will probably be killed again in the future" Bane or Mr "I'm writing something that will drive anyone reading it crazy, now let me proofread it to see if it works..." Cyric. They're both losers. :) Eberron, IMHO, is, like the two settings above, meant to be a RPG setting, rather than a movie/novel setting. While a single, seemingly all-powerful, opponents is great for the dynamics of a set story, it isn't that appropriate for an evolving setting. Despite all the stories that can be told about Arda, for example, you can't help but think there's nothing more to do once Sauron is vainquished. Players would say "what's the point?" GH, FR, and Eberron, on the other hand, are written for the DM and the players to play for long campaigns within. Once an enemy is vainquished at the climactic end of a campaign, there's still room for more. If a DM doesn't like a villain's theme (for example, "don't want to have the Lord of Blades as the BBEG, the Skynet/Frankeinstein's Creature syndrom of an artificial race waging war against their creators is too cliché"), then he can use any of the other potential villains. If your setting features one prominant villain, the setting will be about him, rather than about the heroes. And that's why, while it's excellent for telling non-interactive stories like in novels, comics, movies, etc. (Hitchcock used to say that a good villain was the most important thing: "The better the villain, the better the picture!"), it isn't as appropriate for RPGs.
Egres 12-28-04, 08:40 AM	Here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=308236) the ultimate BBEG in Eberron! :D
CzarGarrett 12-28-04, 08:46 AM	Eberron doesn't have/need an ultimate BBEG. Moral ambiguity with dark cults and demons underground are enough.
Delazar 12-28-04, 11:13 AM	thx for the comments/feedback !
Brianish 12-28-04, 11:33 AM	Vol. At least, given everything that's been published so far, she seems the major baddie. She's involved with the draconic prophecy, the elves, she's got her own religion, she's got her political fingers in a number of major nations, she's got her own island. It's Vol.
CzarGarrett 12-28-04, 12:55 PM	Vol. At least, given everything that's been published so far, she seems the major baddie. She's involved with the draconic prophecy, the elves, she's got her own religion, she's got her political fingers in a number of major nations, she's got her own island. It's Vol. Except for the elves part, the Rahaskas work for that too.
Streamweaver 12-28-04, 01:08 PM	Eberron isn't the setting of "The Big Bad", it's a complex and mysterious world and if you want to keep an air of intrigue at every turn you need to have them as different intriges and not just one. Multiple bads are also the salvation of Eberron in many ways. Run across the Dreaming Dark as too powerful to take on alone, then set the Lords of Dust against them. One of the things that keep the multiple big bads in check isn't just a smiting from the forces of good, it's one of the other "big bads" using any weakness to assert their own agenda.
scaryfroman 12-28-04, 02:10 PM	Well, i think it depends on how you look at it. The biggest powers on the planet (or planes) are either imprisoned or weakened by earlier events. Many of them have plans that would take millenia to unfold. Not really the BBEG mindset. Except for one. "He" is a different kind of being. "He" is looked upon by others of his kind as a savior or messiah "He" has become a paragon of his race, emphasising his strengths and avoiding his weakenesses. "He" has a stronghold nearly unreachable to all but the strongest of adventurers. "He" leads an army of beings made for war. "He" has grandiose plans for the world, most likely manifesting sooner or later. We all know who I am talking about.
Bluebrush 12-28-04, 02:16 PM	What is the ultimate villain in Eberron? Why you've already met it. It is the darkness which lies at the heart of every man, woman and construct throughout the world, which fuels the evil and weakens the good. Or no, wait, probably the Daelkyr.
Just another user 12-28-04, 03:24 PM	Why! Hellcow, of course. :D
Grynn 12-28-04, 04:23 PM	Why! Hellcow, of course. :D He certainly fits the description scaryfroman gave :P
scaryfroman 12-28-04, 04:25 PM	Who else would I be talking about? although, DnD geeks are hardly made for war...
Rinna 12-28-04, 04:38 PM	Why! Hellcow, of course. :D Ah, but he is one BBEG who cannot be defeated...as he is the creator of all things and has much more to do for the world. So the prophecy has told me. Or was that, who so ever defeats the creator will do much for the world? Or it could have had something to do with evil pink bunny slippers. You can never tell with the Prophecy. Rinna
hiryuu 12-28-04, 06:46 PM	Well, yes. The great and mysterious Hellcow controls the Eldritch machine known only as the "Plot Device," a grand orrery of spinning gears and arching magical energy that generates the dragonmarks and causes stagnation of NPC power, as well as an intense need to create webs of complex conspiracy in the minds of nations, people, and the Houses. It blurs alignments and locks away the gods, making the world a darker place. Without the great Plot Device, Eberron would be just another world like Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
leopardmessiah 12-28-04, 07:19 PM	Eberron doesn't have any sort of end-game boss or final villian, but Khyber could perhaps be considered the Ultimate Evil. That's not the same as a Big Bad or even the Big Bad though, it's not like you can kill him, even if the creation myth is taken literally.
Edymnion 12-28-04, 08:03 PM	Exactly, the whole point is that Eberron has neither BBEGs nor BBGGs. There is no one overlord of evil in the setting, just like there is no one all-good hero. Thats what makes the setting so great. There isn't any big stories that have already been told, everything is fresh. The BBEG for the campaign? Chances are, its going to be someone the DM invents, who will rise to power along with the PCs. I'm getting flashbacks to the hobbit animated movies with the bard warbling on about "the greatest adventure is the one yet to be told..."
motorfirebox 12-28-04, 10:00 PM	heh. if Hellcow goes down, Eberron goes with him. pretty much the ultimate in Retributive Strike (Ex).
Edymnion 12-28-04, 10:40 PM	Nah, it won't go down. It'll fall to it's knees, but it won't die. The books are printed, they're in our hands. As long as we keep playing it, Eberron shall never die! :D
Brianish 12-29-04, 12:25 AM	Except for the elves part, the Rahaskas work for that too. Rakshasas. Plural. Buddy's asking for the megavillain who most closely matches the archetype. Besides, unless they've brought down a moon I didn't know about they're not as involved in the Draconic prophecy as Vol.
Bluebrush 12-29-04, 08:23 AM	A suggestion no-one seems to have made. Killer of millions. Orgins unknown. The ally of the Lord of Blades. I speak of course of the Mournland. It's just sitting there for now, but it came out of no-where, and no-one knows if or when it could expand to swallow another nation.
hiryuu 12-29-04, 12:00 PM	A suggestion no-one seems to have made. Killer of millions. Orgins unknown. The ally of the Lord of Blades. I speak of course of the Mournland. It's just sitting there for now, but it came out of no-where, and no-one knows if or when it could expand to swallow another nation. Yeah, who knows. It may be a living spell: genesis for all we know.
scaryfroman 12-29-04, 01:21 PM	Yeah, who knows. It may be a living spell: genesis for all we know. :OMG! You have blown my mind. Seriously, I'm not kidding here. This is a really good idea.
Hardware Jedi 12-29-04, 01:58 PM	Here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=308236) the ultimate BBEG in Eberron! :D :clap: :clap: :clap: What a brilliant story! I was gong to say Vol was the biggest and baddest, but now I realize there could be others.
hiryuu 12-29-04, 02:35 PM	:OMG! You have blown my mind. Seriously, I'm not kidding here. This is a really good idea. First thing that came to mind when I heard "mist," "wasteland," and "no healing." It's a nifty idea, though. The very place itself becomes far more treacherous. You could, without warning, suddenly be hurled into a universe created by your own subconscious mind, strange visions may filter through the mist, and whole cities with people still living in them may be untouched, existing partially within the genesis plane. And perhaps there is an open gate to Xoriat or some other realm just sitting out there somewhere.
Murr-Quan Lord #2 12-29-04, 09:45 PM	The big, mega-evil villain is whomever the DM wants it to be. ^.^ And the Eberron Campaign Setting gives her tons of choices. It'd probably be the Lord of Blades, in the campaign I'm planning.
Arcane Guyver 12-30-04, 01:08 AM	Huh. Never thought of the Mournland as a sorta 'force of nature' BBEG.
clearshades 12-30-04, 01:46 AM	Well I've alway thought that there were multiple BBEG in each settting. Don't forget Vecna for Greyhawk, I've always thought he was almost a force of nature. Who are the BBEG of Eberron? If we're just talking about individuals as opposed to organizations or forces (like Khyber or the Dreaming Dark) then honestly I think Vol should be in the running. She's 18th level I believe (really high for Eberron) and she's the head of the Emerald Claw and has the remnants of the 13th mark. Chris Tang
Edymnion 12-30-04, 01:47 AM	First thing that came to mind when I heard "mist," "wasteland," and "no healing." It's a nifty idea, though. The very place itself becomes far more treacherous. You could, without warning, suddenly be hurled into a universe created by your own subconscious mind, strange visions may filter through the mist, and whole cities with people still living in them may be untouched, existing partially within the genesis plane.Which works well with Ghostwalk. Have the city of Manifest exist within the Mournlands.
Marshall Stone 12-30-04, 04:54 AM	I'd like to nomiate: Mordrain (sp?) the Fleshweaver and/or The Sisters of Sora Kell Neither of which would you want to be in the debt of/too.
Bluebrush 12-30-04, 09:52 AM	But ol' fleshweaver seems content to sit in his castle and not bother anyone. He's like Ultima weapon in FF7. You don't bother him, and he doesn't bother you. And he drops the ultimate greatsword when you defeat him for some reason.
RadicalTaoist 01-05-05, 07:35 PM	Well, i think it depends on how you look at it. The biggest powers on the planet (or planes) are either imprisoned or weakened by earlier events. Many of them have plans that would take millenia to unfold. Not really the BBEG mindset. Except for one. "He" is a different kind of being. "He" is looked upon by others of his kind as a savior or messiah "He" has become a paragon of his race, emphasising his strengths and avoiding his weakenesses. "He" has a stronghold nearly unreachable to all but the strongest of adventurers. "He" leads an army of beings made for war. "He" has grandiose plans for the world, most likely manifesting sooner or later. We all know who I am talking about."And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them." Ezekiel 25:17, King James Bible
darkthought 01-06-05, 03:24 AM	I'd say the Rakasha Rajahs would be the Big Bad. But I'd run it more like a Buffy the Vampire slayer thing. You'd never directly face the Rajah (who can have a divine rank of 5, according to Keith Baker) but you face it's minions and lesser rakashas. They'd try to free it/break the seals that bind it, and the PCs would attempt to prevent that from happening.