Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Joseph Amarillo 07-06-04, 10:34 PM	Okay people... Please help me dispel some of the myths about the Eberron Campaign Setting. The misconceptions I keep reading/hearing about are driving me nuts! 1.) Level 10 is mid-level. Damn... I keep reading about this on the boards. Level 10 is NOT mid-level. In Eberron, level 5 is relatively high (few people get to level 5). This makes level 10 a very high level (maybe one in a million?). People around level 15 are one in a billion. 2.) You gain experience points by killing monsters. Not necessarily. This myth is common among MMORPG players who recently moved to PNP RPGs. In most MMORPGs, the main source of XP is the killing of monsters. This is the reason why I dislike MMORPGs, since by the time you to get level X, you will already be a mass murderer. It is also common among those who played computer/console RPGs before playing PNP... When I started playing D&D, I wanted to create very powerful characters so that I could level up quickly. When I DM'd, I designed my adventures so that the PCs would fight the "right" number of monsters to level up. Actually, only a fraction (1/2, 1/3, or maybe 1/4) of the XP you receive is from combat, and it is usually gained from fighting monsters, not from killing them (since a level 1 commoner can easily kill a sleeping level 20 fighter). 3.) If you play everyday, you can get to level 20 quickly. Another myth common to computer RPG players (I was guilty of this one, too). While it is possible to get to level 20 in a few months in real time, it might take several years to do so in game time. One thing that newbie DMs fail to implement is downtime. Some think that it's possible to level up during an adventure (just like in MMORPGs!). Some think that one day in real time translates to one day in game time. In the real world, it would take years for Joseph Amarillo to get his PHD in Mathematics (BTW... I'm going to college in the USA soon!). It would be rather silly if Joseph Amarillo got his PHD in one year by adventuring nonstop (i.e. going to Iraq/Afghanistan/whereever to kill Al-Qaeda terrorists). Hm... Assuming I never failed, how long would it take me to get my PHD in the USA? When do classes start in the USA, anyway? Here in my country, classes start in June. I know that Eberron is NOT the real world, but it is still based on the real world. Thus, it would rather silly if Joseph d'Orien learned his 9th-level Divinations (he's a diviner) by adventuring nonstop (i.e. going to Xen'Drik to explore the ruins). :angel: These are all I could think of right now... I'll be back later.
KCDinc 07-06-04, 10:43 PM	Pardon me but this is a real case of you telling other people how to play the game. With the exception of the mid level comment all of your examples are quite personal experiences. Different DMs run different games and I'm sure there are plenty of them out there that WILL run a campaign where XP is gained through combat alone. This is neither good nor bad on a base level, it all depends on the type of game they want to play. Even though the levels of NPCs in eberron is more defined and "cannon" its still all one big suggestion. I think Keith Baker would be one of the first people to say that if you want your eberron world to be made of higher level characters then go right ahead, its your game. But I let you assessment slide on the assumption that we are taking the campaign on face value only.
Joseph Amarillo 07-06-04, 11:10 PM	Pardon me but this is a real case of you telling other people how to play the game. With the exception of the mid level comment all of your examples are quite personal experiences. Um... I'm just suggesting how to play, not FORCING them. I'm the type of guy who plays an RPG based on how it was intended to be played (i.e. according to the feel of the game). Let's take two White Wolf games as examples: Vampire: The Masquerade is all about the conspiracy hiding the existence of vampires from mortals. It is about mystery, intrigue, etc. While combat has its place in VTM, it is not intended to be a game where Cainites regularly run through the streets using Potence and other powerful combat disciplines. EDIT: I'm a Malkavian, by the way... On the other hand, Werewolf: The Apocalypse is all about the "Warriors of Gaia" (i.e. the werewolves). Every character in Werewolf: The Apocalypse is a combat powerhouse. There's a lot of combat in Werewolf. Sure, a combat-based campaign can be fun, but it gets old really fast after the nth combat-based campaign ends. It also ruins the suspension of disbelief. EDIT: I just remembered... I will begin my first Eberron campaign this Saturday with, "ROLL FOR INITIATIVE!" Yes, it will begin with combat. No, I am not a "roleplayer" who thinks that combat/dice/whatever is unnecessary for D&D.
Megatron 07-06-04, 11:14 PM	I agree with you on all three counts, JA
Joseph Amarillo 07-06-04, 11:31 PM	:rofl: Cool signature... :D "GET OUT OF HERE MEGATRON, YOU DON'T EXIST ANYMORE!" :D
demonpunk 07-07-04, 08:58 AM	Other Eberron related misconceptions... 4) "Its a technomagic/swords and guns/wild west game." No, its not. It has a few things like airships and the lightning rail that are not only obscure parts of the world, but can be completely ignored if you want. Most people who think its technomagic are the ones who were turned off by that supposed aspect anyway, and they'll never even bother learning what Eberron's really about. 5) "If Eberron is high magic, why don't clerics run hospitals, and where's Eberron's equivalent of Elminster?" This is from people who know virtually nothing about the setting, yet will write a long rant and argue with anybody who disagrees with them. I personally love the flavor changes. Finally, the temple isn't the one place PCs go to get healing. Finally, there aren't a hundred 20th level characters running around fixing all the world-shaking problems (if there were so many high level NPCs around, what use would the PCs be?). *** I also agree on the killing monsters for XP and level up in a year points earlier. Most of the campaigns I've run or played in have been plagued by lack of goals (other than killing monsters) and lack of downtime to create magic items, flesh out PCs, etc. I'm trying to turn things around by instituting a more generic and goal oriented XP system, and by making the PCs take more rests.
Lord Arkhaven 07-07-04, 10:08 AM	We would all like to think that we are evolved and sophisticated roleplayers who rarely enter pointless combat and can go whole sessions without rolling dice. We are thespians in the theatre of the mind, mais no? But the truth is in the rules, and the rules governing non-combat roleplay awards are scant and mostly left to DM interpretation. There are hard, precise rules to determine how much XP a 4th level party gains when it kills a troll. There are only guidelines for determining what that same party get when they facilitate a peace treaty between a clan of dwarves and a house of elves. Combat and fighting are integral parts of the game. The spells, feats, magic items, and classes support combat in a great many ways. Characters will by and large gain the vast majority of their XP via hack and slash. A good DM's job is to make the fights instrumental to the story and well placed within the adventure.
Roo 07-07-04, 10:16 AM	Unfortunately, you have your own misconception: 1.) Level 10 is mid-level. Damn... I keep reading about this on the boards. Level 10 is NOT mid-level. In Eberron, level 5 is relatively high (few people get to level 5). This makes level 10 a very high level (maybe one in a million?). People around level 15 are one in a billion. Who says? The average member (that parties will encounter, go up against, ally with) of the numerous factions are 5th-6th. Level 10 is midlevel, for the campaign as a whole. There is a ton of things to do, even at Epic Levels - it's a very well balanced campaign.
Lord Arkhaven 07-07-04, 10:26 AM	With regard to character level and what is what there are many factors to consider. As I get older I find the games last longer and the characters reach higher levels. When I as an agro-seventeen year old a game wouldn't get higher than level 3 most times before the whole party offed each other over the first magic dagger we collectively found. Now that I am a nice mellow 34 (yikes!) the group of guys I play with are supportive, cooperative, and laid back. Inter-party fighting or conflict is unheard of, and all of us are enjoying 16th and 19th level characters. 10th level would have been way high when I was younger, now it's merely mid.
Roo 07-07-04, 10:34 AM	Ditto. 7th was the highest my groups normally got. In the last 10 years, it's been closer to 14th (due to time)... but I was in a group that hit 16th-18th.
jedi8187 07-07-04, 10:54 AM	On the mid level thing: Level 10 is mid level, half way between 1 and 20, it's in the midlle. I belive the main use of "mid level" comes from breaking the levels up into chunks, low level(1-5), mid level(6-15), high(above 15). This is generally the breakup of it I see used around. just my 2cp
kildaere007 07-07-04, 11:37 AM	I have a tendency to run low level games (1-10), and my players are a bit sick of it....they like the games but are tired of stopping at level 10 or so. I love Eberron and want to use this as my next campaign. I may be in the Minority, but I plan to start my Eberron Campaign at 5th. There should be more than enough to keep them busy :angel:
primemover003 07-07-04, 10:49 PM	I'm still trying to wrap my head around Fantasy Pulp... I keep seeing Crimson Skies, The Iron Giant, or Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (which looks horrible BTW)... I am one of the people who was initially turned off by magitech & Robots (warforged)... But there are a ton of cool things about Eberron! Shifters & Changelings rule! Much easier to integrate a doppleganger or Lycanthrope PC now. New Planar Cosmology and Pantheons... I'm an OLD SKOOL Planescape devotee. I was ticked when FR made it's own cosmology (rendering moot lots of 2e source material). I love the Host, the Dark Six, and the Silver Flame! Just gotta shoehorn the races of the XPH into the world for my new campaign (or soome of them at least) and away I go!!! I'm glad they left it so open ended.
Sancus 07-07-04, 11:03 PM	onos a roleplayahs vs powergamahs topic? Who's better? Dunno. Who's more extreme? Dunno... But they sure are funny to watch :)
Joseph Amarillo 07-08-04, 09:58 AM	onos a roleplayahs vs powergamahs topic? No, this thread wasn't intended to bash "powergamers". I am NOT one of those so-called "real roleplayers" who "care only for the story" and end up creating really flawed characters "for the sake of the story". I see myself as 50% powergamer and 50% roleplayer. I often min/max, but the background stories behind them ALWAYS make sense. Level 10 is mid level, half way between 1 and 20, it's in the midlle. I belive the main use of "mid level" comes from breaking the levels up into chunks, low level(1-5), mid level(6-15), high(above 15). This is generally the breakup of it I see used around. Well, that's how D&D 3.5 divides levels. However, when I looked at the NPC stats in the ECS, it felt as if level 5 was mid-level and level 10 was high-level. A level 10 character in Eberron is as rare as a level 15 character in D&D 3.5. At least, this is how I interpret it. Note that I said "level 5 is relatively high". For PC standards, this is mid-level. I didn't say that level 5 is high-level. I'm sorry if some people misinterpreted what I said this way... My bad... Of course, the game was designed so that the PCs would be the main heroes/villains. Thus, only PCs (and some NPCs) could ever hope to reach the highest levels in Eberron (15+). But the truth is in the rules, and the rules governing non-combat roleplay awards are scant and mostly left to DM interpretation. There are hard, precise rules to determine how much XP a 4th level party gains when it kills a troll. There are only guidelines for determining what that same party get when they facilitate a peace treaty between a clan of dwarves and a house of elves. Actually, you don't get XP for killing the troll. You get XP for fighting it. Anyone can kill a troll (wait for it to sleep and cut its head off with an axe). However, not everyone can survive a fight with a troll. As I said before (in another thread), there will be combat in my game. I will begin my game this Saturday with the words, "ROLL FOR INITIATIVE!" And it won't be the last... D&D is not just a game. It's also a roleplaying game. Thus, it shouldn't be based solely on the rules. It's just that I am very annoyed with people here in my city who take the rules literally (I heard that there's a guy who rewards XP for killing chickens... I haven't verified this, though.).
Magagumo 07-08-04, 11:36 AM	I'm afraid I've only run one campaign in my lifetime, but its hitting its 2nd year anniversary with a cast of 15th lvl players. I'm afraid I have little to add, but must concur with the prevelance of combat in D&D (my players and I enjoy it, certainly, but it's always a trick to make sure it doesn't dominate the game). *shrug* With eperieince comes wisdom and the ability to wrap your combats in the shiny trappings of motivation, scenery, description, and of course fun. Also, props to prime's sig- that quote summarized my hopes and frustrations as a DM so very nicely :).
ENHenry 07-08-04, 01:20 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven But the truth is in the rules, and the rules governing non-combat roleplay awards are scant and mostly left to DM interpretation. There are hard, precise rules to determine how much XP a 4th level party gains when it kills a troll. There are only guidelines for determining what that same party get when they facilitate a peace treaty between a clan of dwarves and a house of elves. I can't say as I see 3E quite that way, because the guidelines for awarding XP for overcoming challenges as a whole are pretty solid. The 3E DMG specifically goes to trouble to point out that overcoming the challenge that a creature represents is what's being referenced. The XP's are not awarded for killing, they are awarded for overcoming the challenge. Killing the critter is one way, but it does note that killing a creature might not be the correct solution in some cases. It's a big stride from 2E where the XP were given for killing the creature, and from 1E, where you got more XP from loot than from killing.
ChrisTheS 07-13-04, 01:58 AM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven We would all like to think that we are evolved and sophisticated roleplayers who rarely enter pointless combat and can go whole sessions without rolling dice. We are thespians in the theatre of the mind, mais no? Well, maybe not without rolling dice... but in the last 3 games I've run I've had maybe 1 combat event... and the characters ran away from it :) But the truth is in the rules, and the rules governing non-combat roleplay awards are scant and mostly left to DM interpretation. There are hard, precise rules to determine how much XP a 4th level party gains when it kills a troll. There are only guidelines for determining what that same party get when they facilitate a peace treaty between a clan of dwarves and a house of elves. Speaking as someone who can't read the XP tables, I'm a big fan of DM interpretation... of course, I also like high-level games, and the only reason I don't start everyone off at 4th level all the time is that sometimes my players want to start at level 1... I've personally always found that 12th level is actually the median, for player characters. That's the point at which you can easily whup standard encounters and survive higher-level encounters without completely depleting your potion supply. Of course, it's also about the time that people start getting bored with the campaign and start PC deathmatching. Or at least, such has been my experience.
demonpunk 07-13-04, 09:04 AM	I think the "10th level is mid level" statement means NPCs. Of course its not PC mid level. Again, I like this aspect. Its how my world was already set up--the PCs are heroes, not lackeys to All-Powerful-minster. And the DMG does give good guidelines for non-combat XP. I particularly like the rule that says average XP for a session should be 300xcharacter level. That's a good, simple guideline. Even if you do the math for every single encounter and add up the XP, you can still check it against the 300xlevel amount and compare.
Templar_Prime 07-13-04, 10:04 PM	The big problem with the level argument is the difference between PCs and NPCs. For NPCs, 10th is incredibly high. For PCs, on the other hand, 10th is mid-level, when concepts are finally seening development (as oppossed to the survival-only mentality of low-level development). This is an argument I have with someone who can't seem to understand that trying to make fantasy games too 'realistic' ruins the game more often than not.
Thondred 07-14-04, 12:21 AM	I found this one the other day on the FR boards, and I like it so much, I think it just became my signature. Originally posted by ****** Eberron will include new race, as Pokemon fighter or Super Mario rogue , new monster as Giant ninja turtle and all the five years-15 years old (majority of the people who play in FR ) will spend their money in it. And waterdeep will slowly sink. Let's talk back about it it 1/2 years. :rofl: That's just rad...
Girtnu Shav 07-14-04, 07:54 AM	In another sense entirely, 5th level is VERY high for an Eberron character. Why? Well, because the setting just came out, and the vast majority of gaming groups start out at 1st level. Only die-hard marathon gamers could have reached 5th or higher by now, I'd think. But then, this is just me being silly.
Macona 07-14-04, 08:04 AM	I never really think about what counts as mid or high level. The way I see it, nomatter what level you are, no matter how much magic you've got, there will ALWAYS be something bigger and better than you! .....and I never let my players forget it.:smirk:
secretbison 07-14-04, 11:40 AM	Hroth-Jules: What does Mar'Sellus of Wallace look like? Bretticus: What? Hroth-Jules: What realm are you from?! Bretticus: ...What? Hroth-Jules: What? "What" ain't no realm I ever heard of, they speak Common in "What?" Bretticus: ...what? Hroth-Jules: COMMON, ***********, DO YOU SPEAK IT? Bretticus: ...w- Hroth-Jules: SAY "WHAT" AGAIN! SAY. "WHAT." AGAIN. I DARE YOU; I DOUBLE-DARE YOU, **********, SAY "WHAT" ONE MORE ******* TIME! Now, what does Mar'Sellus of Wallace look like? Bretticus: He's a dark elf! Hroth-Jules: More. Bretticus: He's bald! Hroth-Jules: Does he look like a wench? Bretticus: what? Hroth-Jules: (fires his crossbow)
Roo 07-14-04, 11:58 AM	LMFAO!i!i!
secretbison 07-14-04, 01:20 PM	Hroth-Jules: ******, Jimmie-Ulf, these are some serious gourmet potions! Me and Vince-Gar would have been satisfied with freeze-dried Potions of Infravision, and you pull this gourmet ****** **** on us! What flavor is this? Jimmie-Ulf: Knock it off, Hroth-Julie. Hroth-Jules: What? Jimmie-Ulf: I am not a cob of +1 corn, so you can stop butterin' me up. You don't have to tell me how good my potions are; I'm the one who buys them. When Bonnie-el goes to the apothecary, she buys ****. I have to go and buy the gourmet stuff myself 'cause when I drink it, I wanna heal hit points. But what's on my mind right now is not the potion in my larder, it's the dead dark elf in my castle. Hroth-Jules: Jimmie-Ulf- Jimmie-Ulf: I'm talkin'! Now let me ask you something, Hroth-Jules! When you approached my drawbridge, did you see a sign that said "dead dark elf storage?" Hroth-Jules: Jimmie-Ulf, you know we didn't see a- Jimmie-Ulf: You know why you didn't see that sign? Hroth-Jules: ...Why? Jimmie-Ulf: 'CAUSE IT AIN'T THERE, 'CAUSE STORING DEAD DARK ELVES AIN'T MY ******* BUSINESS!
Roo 07-14-04, 03:13 PM	o_O First one was much better...
Damien_Hiro 07-14-04, 03:57 PM	Hroth-Jules: What does Mar'Sellus of Wallace look like? Bretticus: What? Hroth-Jules: What realm are you from?! Bretticus: ...What? Hroth-Jules: What? "What" ain't no realm I ever heard of, they speak Common in "What?" Bretticus: ...what? Hroth-Jules: COMMON, ***********, DO YOU SPEAK IT? Bretticus: ...w- Hroth-Jules: SAY "WHAT" AGAIN! SAY. "WHAT." AGAIN. I DARE YOU; I DOUBLE-DARE YOU, **********, SAY "WHAT" ONE MORE ******* TIME! Now, what does Mar'Sellus of Wallace look like? Bretticus: He's a dark elf! Hroth-Jules: More. Bretticus: He's bald! Hroth-Jules: Does he look like a wench? Bretticus: what? Hroth-Jules: (fires his crossbow) Hroth-Jules: ******, Jimmie-Ulf, these are some serious gourmet potions! Me and Vince-Gar would have been satisfied with freeze-dried Potions of Infravision, and you pull this gourmet ****** **** on us! What flavor is this? Jimmie-Ulf: Knock it off, Hroth-Julie. Hroth-Jules: What? Jimmie-Ulf: I am not a cob of +1 corn, so you can stop butterin' me up. You don't have to tell me how good my potions are; I'm the one who buys them. When Bonnie-el goes to the apothecary, she buys ****. I have to go and buy the gourmet stuff myself 'cause when I drink it, I wanna heal hit points. But what's on my mind right now is not the potion in my larder, it's the dead dark elf in my castle. Hroth-Jules: Jimmie-Ulf- Jimmie-Ulf: I'm talkin'! Now let me ask you something, Hroth-Jules! When you approached my drawbridge, did you see a sign that said "dead dark elf storage?" Hroth-Jules: Jimmie-Ulf, you know we didn't see a- Jimmie-Ulf: You know why you didn't see that sign? Hroth-Jules: ...Why? Jimmie-Ulf: 'CAUSE IT AIN'T THERE, 'CAUSE STORING DEAD DARK ELVES AIN'T MY ******* BUSINESS! Effing hilarious. I almost passed out laughing so hard. That is some funny mierda, amigo.