Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alexius D'Cannith 07-30-04, 05:04 AM	okay so ive got an Heir of Orien Rogue, Shifter Fighter, Warforged Artificer Now after playing Forgotten forge the 2 non forged became convinced that forged were maniacal machines that were too dangerous to live, it took a bit of crowbaring but ive managed to get them to like the artificer and now i need to come up wth ways to rehabilitate the perception of forged After FF and SotLW they are now convinced that house Cannith is a powerful organisation of evil that is more trouble than its worth, (maybe maybe) this is in part due to the missions they were sent on by Cannith and because they made the forged is this normal or do i have a band of loonies
peterson 07-30-04, 06:18 AM	Well, the first thing I did when I ran my FF is to inform the group that just because you will notice a trend in the bad guys, please realize that this is just one of many factions found in Eberron. Not every race of the bad guy type is evil, not every type of the good guy races are good. They said they understood and we commenced with the game. At the end, I still have one person who insists all warforged are evil ( They were made for war! ), but overall the group keeps their opinions in check, mostly due to that disclaimer. Of course - I can't wait til I run them through my homebrew adventure - where the only one who can heal them is a Warforged Paladin of the Silver Flame who gets his "feelings" hurt easily by racism. That one player is going to have a hard time. I'm a bad man... Peterson
ENHenry 07-30-04, 08:43 AM	If they have that perception, why disabuse them of it? Make use of their prejudices, and introduce characters who CALL them on their prejudices! :devil: Perhaps they act on these things, and are arrested by the city guard and ousted from whatever country they are in, after the constabulary informs them that their victims have broken no laws, while THEY have. Perhaps the defense barrister called in on their behalf is a Warforged. :) Alternately, if you feel like you perhaps dumped them into the setting blind without explaining enough, perhaps you should sit down and talk with them about alignments and Faith in Eberron. Let them know that there are such paradoxes as Evil Gold Dragons and saintly Red Dragons; let them know that faith is more a measure of divine might than having right on their side is. Then let their actions determine their fates.
Boin 07-30-04, 09:42 AM	I think it's clear that you don't want your players believing that the warforged are a race of psychotics. On that I think your options range within the following. You can introduce your PC to an NPC or a book or something describing the Lord of the blades and his followers as fanatical. Your PC's should remember what Cutter said and realize that not all warforged are the same. You could have your PC's travel through a small farming community where a bunch of warforged are peacefull farmers and are being victimized by the local bandits...etc Just depict the warforged in a new way make them feel dynamic like the other races.
Saurenda 07-30-04, 02:27 PM	I think it was a poor decision on your part to crowbang your PCs into liking the warforged artificer. It would have been goodstoryline, or better yet the intelligence of the players you doubted that made the party see that warforged, like everyone else make decisions. You have in a sense robbed them of the ability to make this judgement for themselves, or better yet to discover the truth in later adventures, or your own original adventures were they discover they either can depend on the artificer or they can't. Monopolies aren't evil, they are simply used for evil. Business is business even in Sharn. Cannith like all dragonmarked houses run on trust, centuries of trust. Warforged who follow the lord of blades do so willing, the lord of blades never put a sword to thier head so much as he reasoned with them and played on thier prejudices and situations of all his kind being made as slaves, and transformed them into warriors. ("Flaming" is a violation of the WotC Online Code of Conduct (www.wizards.com/coc) - by which you agreed to abide when you requested permission to post on WotC's Forums - and is NOT ALLOWED here. Inlammatory comments Removed by WizO Sith.)
Alexius D'Cannith 07-30-04, 02:52 PM	Saurenda i know both the original party members if i hadnt had 2 agents of the lord of blades try to kill the warforged artificer then the party would have at best ignored him and moved on causing him to gen up a new character More likly Killed him, So yes i used the Cosmic plot stick because im not going to make someone make a character only to have to throw it away because the party were playing people who were easily coloured by the intro adventure (they wernt playing especially wise or enlightened people) and they decided to think of Cannith as a vast evil organisation on the basis of the 2 published adventures despite the number of times i drop side things in to show the general level of trust and respect Cannith has AND AS FOR YOUR RUDE INSULT I HAVNT INFLUENCED THEIR THINKING IN THE LEAST WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET OFF TELLING ME IM EVIL IN DEPRIVING THEM OF THEIR FREE WILL WHEN THATS BLATANTLY NOT TRUE [Deleted for reasons of civility]
Saurenda 07-30-04, 03:02 PM	Taken from another thread: Whats a GM to do? "Experienced DM's should also experience playing in games that have a different style than the games that he normally runs. Note that this may be a bad experience and DM's should experience a bad experience. DM's would then appreciate the fact that forcing players to play a certain style that the DM likes, but the player does not, will not make the player happy. I've seen many threads where the DM complains that the players aren't playing the way the DM wants them to play. Well, D&D is a cooperative game. Everyone involved may want to play a different style. Some like heavy RP, others like hack and slash. It is unfortunate that this is the case. There needs to be some compromise or the playing group needs to change so that everyone who remains likes a similar style. I've played in groups whose playing style I did not care for. Sometimes I have adjusted. Sometimes I chose not to continue playing. This applies to both being a DM and a player. __________________ Stuntman " I didn't insult you guy. I'm sorry you think that. I thank Stuntman for putting into words what I obiviously could not. Maybe reading this has helped you see to my point. If not I won't push it further. It's your game, you have the right to run it anyway you want too. As for dropping hints during the game, though some of us would consider it metagaming you seem to feel your players need it. I took that to mean you were telling them what was really going on without them seeing things for themselves. You had enforced your perception of the world onto them. I made the arguement that because you may not have personified the warforged in any other way as NPCs, they have nothing else to go on from thier characters experience, just what you decide to tell them from time to time on the side lines. I don't believe anything I said was rude or insulting.
Alexius D'Cannith 07-30-04, 03:32 PM	i still cant put warforged npcs in because they still talk about killing the warforged artificer and selling him for parts IN FRONT OF HIM i think they are just joking, well one is only joking but still its hard for me to show any other side to the warforged as one just jumped to a conclusion based on 3 npcs my point was that it seemed like they were over eager to jump to a conclusion despite me hammering home the fact that there is no black and white lines,
DarkerDreams 07-30-04, 04:33 PM	sometimes I'm considered something of a jerk DM, so take the following with a grain of salt; Introduce a good NPC warforged, do so in front of the local constabulary (and other observers), and do so in a way that if they act like jerks it's obvious to all observers that they are bigots and only barely held in check... have all parties presant react accordingly (constable warning them and repremanding as necessarry, appropriate noises of disgust from those around, and the NPC warforged either helping anyway, or not depending on how inappropriate their actions are.) being a jerk DM, if the characters don't figure it out from there, I'd make the artificer the contact of choice for the group and send them on adventures where the two want to go but they have to have the artificer... I also love the idea of them stumbling into the Warforged paladin and/or the Warforged farming village.
Gurv 07-30-04, 08:46 PM	I like the warforged paladin concept, but I'd take it one step further. Make the paladin about 5 levels higher than them. Normally, I wouldn't suggest attacking them with such a powerful foe. But them attacking it is an entirely different thing, now isn't it. But more important than the creature's power is how it reacts to this. The paladin should go on defensive first, trying to stop the attack. Then fight back, dealing nonlethal damage, and using things like trip and disarm. When the law arrives to arrest the players, have the paladin (who can easily see if they are evil or not [personally, I'm wondering]) speak on their behalf, and heal them of any damage he has dealt. Roleplayed with great care, an NPC like this could alter their perceptions...a warforged who -could- have hosed them, who had more than enough reason too...and yet didn't.
The White Sorcerer 07-31-04, 02:52 AM	Make an adventure with mostly, say, halfling antagonists. Now see if they'll view all halflings as evil.
Alexius D'Cannith 07-31-04, 06:11 AM	one of them already does because they domesticate dinosaurs
DarkerDreams 07-31-04, 11:56 AM	evil because they domesticate... so is house Vairlan evil because they handle animals? or humans 'cause the domesticate dogs? I'm sorry, no real insult intended, but that's the point where I have to wonder if your players (or just their choice of characters) are plain dumb. mostly 'cause that would just frustrate and aggrivate me. If I were you, I'd stick to some traditional human villany for a while... see if they come to the conclusion all (non-group aligned) humans are evil...
Tevildo 07-31-04, 12:38 PM	If I had players who just want to treat all forgies as evil, I wouldn't attempt to influence their perception in any way. It seems to me that the Eberron setting intends, in many cases, to use preconceived notions and limited knowledge to drive storylines along. For example: "While elves of line of Jhaelian share the undead appearance of the Stillborn, the Jhaelian family is loyal to the Undying Court; the Deathguard includes many Jhaelian elves. This may be a source of confusion or conflict, if adventurers who fought the Stillborn later encounter Jhaelian elves." In a sense, you have robbed yourself of an angle to take in further adventures. There's really no need to disabuse your players of their prejudices in the short term. Over the course of the entire campaign, their viewpoints (made more complex by likes and dislikes such as this) will be a valuable resource for you as a DM to keep things interesting.
WizO_Sith 07-31-04, 01:21 PM	Ok, just so we're clear.... When one person flames a thread, I can delete the comments and give a gentle (or not-so-gentle) warning in the thread and allow it to continue. When one person flames a thread and other take the bait, rise to occasion, and nasty words are exchanged, then the whole thread has to be locked. "He started it" is not now, nor ever will be, an appropriate defense. This thread will be locked. Do not re-start it. *Click*