Post/Author/DateTime	Post
happymoocow 06-30-05, 06:41 PM	Like you know when they bind elementals to ships and stuff are they all like happy?
Baron Mystros ir'Kelten 06-30-05, 06:59 PM	No. They are not. If you have a copy of Shadows of the Last War you will find that deep in the heart of Whithearth, two previously bound Fire Elementals are there and try to kill the PCs JUST because they are afraid of being bound again. It is pretty much save to say that Eberron has a Slave Trade, alive and well. Makes a good hook as well. Anti-Elemental Slavery Activist threaten to release hundreds of enslaved elementals throughout Sharn, new at 11! :uh-huh:
makeshiftwings 06-30-05, 07:28 PM	Makes a good hook as well. Anti-Elemental Slavery Activist threaten to release hundreds of enslaved elementals throughout Sharn, new at 11! :uh-huh: Oooh... especially if some activists were making a device to create a huge elemental-unbinding field when all the airships were flying over Sharn. Oh, the chaos!
Gurv 06-30-05, 08:21 PM	<Travelersadvocate>Perhaps the question should instead be "Are any elementals happy?" Most elementals are little smarter than animals, and even those which approach human intellect have an entirely alien mindset. What makes an elemental happy? Does burning things make a fire elemental happy? Does soaking things please a water elemental? Who are we to determine that the things which make us content are the same things that make elementals content? Elementals are happy as long as they are doing something, whether that something is burning trees, blowing over towers, pushing a lightning rail, or carrying an airship. They are creatures of pure energy, and possessed of an urge to use that energy. Binding an elemental simply allows the people of Khorvaire to benefit from that primal urge, to direct what would otherwise be wasted by a nearly-mindless creature's amusement. As long as an elemental has something to focus its energies and limited awareness on, it is as happy as it is capable of being.</Travelersadvocate>
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-30-05, 09:22 PM	I've never seen slavery described as "happiness". Even dumb animals are given some kind of reward for sticking around (food for cats, companionship for dogs, etc) while the elemental is getting nothing.
Psionycx 06-30-05, 09:58 PM	Elementals have Int 4. Some people in Khorvaire probably eat things that low on the intelligence scale. Let's also consider that in a politically incorrect pre-modern society, the only reason most people feed beasts of burden is to keep them alive and working. If a plowhorse gets too old or becomes injured and unable to work, most people "put it out of it's misery" (i.e. relieve themselves of the burden of an unproducitve animal) without hesitation. And considering what they were (and in many cases still are) willing to do to the warforged, who are much more intelligent creatures, none of this should be surprising. Seriously, I don't think much thought is given to it. A fire elemental, for example, will in it's elemental way burn members of sentient races should it encounter them, with no thought whatsoever to whether it is causing pain of not. This is because it is simply a (marginally) sentient elemental force and it doesn't care much about notions of morality. To the people binding these elementals, that is probably a salient point of logic. Elementals certainly don't feel much in the way of regard for biological life forms, even sentient ones. Why should humanoids feel a special regard for elementals? They're just supernatural beasts of burden, like a plow horse you don't have to feed. Left on their own they either do seemingly nothing at best, or at worst they inflict harm on people and property. This being the case they figure, why not put them to work? Now yes, you could have an interesting storyline where radical elemtnal rights activists go around dispelling the binding enchantments holding the captive elementals into their various devices. Almost everybody would oppose them in this. Not just Houses Lyrander and Orien, but the governments of Khorvaire, merchants, nobles and common citizens would all be opposed to anything that robs them of conveyances such as elemental galleons, airships and the Lightning Rail. The negative impact on society would be enormous and most people would think that doing something that detrimental to people for the sake of some barely sentient elementals is crazy. Could also lead to some interesting scenarios too. What if someone dispelled the bindings on a Lyrander airship moored in Sharn, and rather than flee back to Fernia the fire elementals happily went about consuming the wood of the ship as it fell, and when it landed in some residential area they proceeded to run amok burning homes and people? Would the activists find themselves having to "herd" their liberated elementals before they cause major loss of life? Might be a fun and complicated scenario.
aelryinth 06-30-05, 10:35 PM	Um, the AVERAGE elemental has int 4.. Which means some could have int 12 (genius elementals.) It is slavery, pure and simple...work without compensation can only be voluntary or slavery, and the elementals are not given the choice. ==Aelryinth
anarco_rata 06-30-05, 10:41 PM	I once make a friend's little brother cry with the same argument when he was watching pokemon... :(
KP91 06-30-05, 10:48 PM	I smell a campaign. D.E.A.D. Druids and Elementals Against Detainment
Darrek 06-30-05, 11:21 PM	Um, the AVERAGE elemental has int 4.. Which means some could have int 12 (genius elementals.) It is slavery, pure and simple...work without compensation can only be voluntary or slavery, and the elementals are not given the choice. ==Aelryinth But Intelligence is only their ability to learn and reason. It doesn't tell us how it perceives life. You are talking about creatures with no metabolism, pure immortality. And these beings are not going to think in the same manner as mortals. They're incapable of it. Does "fire" even have a concept of slavery? Remember, elementals thought processes are completely ALIEN to anyone not also purely elemental. An Intelligence 12 elemental that has been bound will probably recognize the binding process the next time it occurs. But will it resist? When it was bound in the past, did it accomplish any of its life goals? If it was bound for 20 years in an existence that spans millenia, will it even consider being rebound as an inconvenience? There'll still be stuff to burn afterwards!
Hellcow 06-30-05, 11:23 PM	My two coppers? An elemental is an alien creature with a low intelligence that, as a rule, only speaks an elemental langauge. Elementals do not naturally manifest on Eberron, and when they appear on Eberron, they are most likely to follow their primal urges. The fire elementals in Whitehearth are not burning the PCs because they are afraid of being rebound. They are burning the PCs because WOO HOO! - they've found something to burn!!! Short form: is elemental binding a form of slavery? Certainly. Do most people on Eberron aside from druids see it that way, or have the slightest empathy or sympathy for elementals? Not at all. As for whether the bound elemental is happy: my personal belief is that bound elementals are only partially aware of their surroundings: they are, in essence, sleepwalking. When you're controlling an airship, you are not engaging in a constant struggle of wills with the elemental: once you tell it to go forward, it will continue to go forward with no argument, and you only have to struggle again when you want to get it to change direction or speed. Some argue that this sleeping state is actually pleasant enough for the elemental - that the spirit in an elemental-bound sword, for example, derives its pleasure from burning things, and as long as it is being used to burn things, it feels content; while if it sits unused in a scabbard for too long, it grows restless. Though few people engage in such arguments. But the short form is that while elementals possess an intelligence greater than animals, there's a big difference between a human with a 4 Int and an elemental with a 4 Int; not that one is inherently superior to the other, but the elemental is fairly incomprehensible to the human (and vice versa), so not a lot of sympathy going on either way. An elemental may be smarter than a horse - but most people don't even see elemental binding as being as close to "slavery" as animal domestication, because it's easier to apply anthropomorphic traits to your dog's behavior.
Hellcow 06-30-05, 11:24 PM	But Intelligence is only their ability to learn and reason. It doesn't tell us how it perceives life. You are talking about creatures with no metabolism, pure immortality. And these beings are not going to think in the same manner as mortals. They're incapable of it. Does "fire" even have a concept of slavery? Remember, elementals thought processes are completely ALIEN to anyone not also purely elemental. Exactly how I see it. And humans are just as alien to the elemental. When it burns the PCs, there's no malice: it is expressing its existence. It may not even recognize that they are sentient - because they certainly aren't elemental. (To head off the argument, I apply this view only to standard elementals, and not to anthropomorphic entities such as efreet, who behave in a many more akin to that of a human. These creatures are not bound by elemental binding, so it's a different subject.)
Edymnion 06-30-05, 11:49 PM	Not to mention that the elementals are immortal. They could easily be millions of years old. Do you really think that something that has existed for millenia is really even going to notice that its been bound for a few years? Its like if somebody were to lock you into a room for 5 minutes. By the time you even figure out whats going on, you're already free.
Psionycx 07-01-05, 12:08 AM	Um, the AVERAGE elemental has int 4.. Which means some could have int 12 (genius elementals.) It is slavery, pure and simple...work without compensation can only be voluntary or slavery, and the elementals are not given the choice. ==Aelryinth Yes, but technically so is the domestication of animals. Yeah, yeah, at least they're feeding them. So what? Do you suppose that a draft horse that a farmer hitches to a plow and forces to walk back and forth across a field dragging that weight is "happy"? Do you suppose that because it is "compensated" (i.e. fed, watered, etc..) that it is content and wouldn't rather be running free where it could go where it wants, eating and mating as it sees fit? You suppose that when it is pulling the farmer's wagon to market that it doesn't look out over the fields and think about how nice it would be to ditch the weight of the wagon, run off and enjoy some of that succulent vegetation? Now, maybe a hard core druid is offended by this state of affairs, but most people just see it as part of the natural way of life. And that is how most people see the situation. Elementals are an alien life form whose sentience is debatable in the eyes of most people. Indeed, many people probably consider their horse or their dog to be more "sentient" than an elemental, purely by virtue of being able to relate to them better. How "happy" the elementals are is therefore a subjective concept, and probably more than a little difficult to determine. A bound air elemental driving an airship probably feels constrained in exactly the way that the above mentioned draft horse does when it's pulling a wagon.
Gurv 07-01-05, 12:20 AM	It is slavery, pure and simple...work without compensation can only be voluntary or slavery, and the elementals are not given the choice.Absolutely. No doubt. And just as in the real world, the people of Khorvaire don't know, don't care, or both. I mean, we're talking about human beings here...creatures who enslave one another. When you consider what we do with animals, creatures which are at least biological in the same way we are, it becomes easy to see how the issue of elemental slavery is ignored by the people of Khorvaire. To most people, elementals aren't sentient. NPCs don't have a SRD, so you can't point to their mental stats as proof. They don't speak any language any normal person knows. And they don't act the way people, or animals, or any of the natives of Eberron do. Heck, if you found one in the real world, you wouldn't even be able to prove it was alive...how do you intend to prove to the people of Khorvaire that they have feelings? And as others have said, what makes you so sure that they do? They're not people. They're not even modeled after people. They're from another dimension, and made of generalized concepts like fire and air. They might not have the same emotions as humans do. Perhaps elementals exist in a perpetual state of bliss. Maybe every instant of their existence is agony. The point is, you can't use the same measuring stick on things like that. And I am not saying that elemental binding isn't slavery. I am saying that the people of Khorvaire are a long way from recognizing it. They're still in denial about the warforged, and dealing with a lot of issues that seem greater than the possible mistreatment of extraplanar beings. We should try to remember that the people in this setting are not supposed to be looking at things through a 21st century lens. We know what slavery is and why it is wrong, but that doesn't mean the characters in our fantasy setting do. Personally, I think that the use of elementals is more akin to the use of horses and guard dogs: the fact is that most of the control devices make use of Charisma points to that. The use of binding dragonshards is no different than the use of harnesses and leashes. Dogs and horses don't want to be restrained and controlled either, no matter how hard we try to convince ourselves otherwise.
ImmortalBlueMage 07-01-05, 03:07 AM	I wonder what Spirit Shamans (from Complete Divine), with their close connection to Elementals and other Spirits, would think of the act of binding.
Gez 07-01-05, 04:40 AM	(To head off the argument, I apply this view only to standard elementals, and not to anthropomorphic entities such as efreet, who behave in a many more akin to that of a human. These creatures are not bound by elemental binding, so it's a different subject.) Especially given that genies, weirds, salamanders, xorns, arrowhawks, and tojanidas are Outsiders with an elemental subtype, rather than Elementals. :)
happymoocow 07-01-05, 07:10 AM	When my gnome druid/wizard can cast enough abjuration and illusion spells to cover his identity from all the sects I will anger... I will free the elementals! It just takes greater dispel magic right? And lots of it? This will be a whole lot of fun. Now here is something you can't understand how I could just kill a man! Anyway. I don't suppose elementals have nerve endings... they are made up of fire. Can elementals be criticaled? If so then it has weak points. Perhaps it's flesh is of the element and it can feel. If so then it's like any other creature. Put a dog in a cage and leave it alone for awhile... you might hear a whimper off in the distance or a howl... never heavy breathing with smiles. True in this time setting the concept of slavery hasn't been fully developed. True even with our perspective... does a low intelligence justify slavery? We do it to animals. Is it because of the animal's IQ??? I would like to believe it's because of their utility at least. The Robert Nozick Arguement - sort of. Now what if an alien species from another planet made humans slaves. 1) Would the alien species be perfectly justified to do so? If you say no then how are we justified to enslave animals?
The Mad Hatter 10 6 07-01-05, 09:12 AM	Regardless of intelligence score, if it is sentient and self-aware and being held against its will ... it is slavery. Definately makes for an excellent campaign hook.
MarkB 07-01-05, 09:45 AM	When my gnome druid/wizard can cast enough abjuration and illusion spells to cover his identity from all the sects I will anger... I will free the elementals! It just takes greater dispel magic right? And lots of it? This will be a whole lot of fun. I think you'll need a lot more than that. Elemental-bound airships are magic items, and (Greater) Dispel Magic will only temporarily suppress their powers for 1d4 rounds. If an airship has no backup systems (which I think would be a matter of very negligent construction, or cost-cutting), that's long enough to crash it if it's reasonably low, but it won't actually free the elemental on its own. A Mordenkainen's Disjunction might free the trapped elemental - or it might destroy it.
Neofish 07-01-05, 10:05 AM	Who cares if someone keeps a packmule? How about a riding horse? guard dog perhaps? All of the sudden it's an outcry of slavery and mistreatment because mages keep living fire in a furnace? I don't get it, it's cool for people to keep mammals and reptiles as pets as beasts of burden, but if it's an elemental, whoa,whoa, whoa, hold the skycoach, that isn't right? Has anyone stopped to think the elementals might enjoy thier "adventure" into a new plane of existance? Who knows what fire, or water, or earth actually thinks? Who cares what living fire thinks? I don't care what horses think, do you? It's the same thing, we're splitting hairs here people... Although I do admit, it would be kinda cool to add crazy hippy druids into my game, free the elementals and all that good stuff, btw, what druid faction you think would take sides with elementals, would any of them even care?
Gurv 07-01-05, 10:36 AM	Regardless of intelligence score, if it is sentient and self-aware and being held against its will ... it is slavery. Definately makes for an excellent campaign hook. It does make a good campaign hook, if someone in the campaign setting were to realize the truth. But I just want to make sure that everyone sees it from the typical perspective of the people who are doing it. The people with the elemental items are not evil people who think slavery is acceptable. It really hasn't occured to them that elementals are sentient, self-aware, or being held against their will. There is little to indicate to someone with no ranks in Knowledge (the planes) that elementals are any more alive than a plant, or much smarter than a dog. If you don't speak their language, and their behavior doesn't make sense to you, then why would you think that they are sentient? And claiming that holding something against its will makes it slavery is a little broad (or maybe it isn't). That would mean that anything on a leash, behind a fence, in a corral, or otherwise confined should be freed immediately, and anyone who refuses to do so should make the alignment switch to evil. What form the tools take is mostly irrelevant. If we could have kept horses in a dragonshard and still moved wagons, we would never have done otherwise.
Hellcow 07-01-05, 11:51 AM	I think you'll need a lot more than that. Elemental-bound airships are magic items, and (Greater) Dispel Magic will only temporarily suppress their powers for 1d4 rounds. Agreed. And yes, Lyrandar, Cannith, and Zilargo are certainly working on ways to counter even this vulnerbility. Can elementals be criticaled? Um, that would be a big no. Which further enhances the lack of empathy people have for them. It's just a big ball of fire with no discernable anatomy. And claiming that holding something against its will makes it slavery is a little broad (or maybe it isn't). That would mean that anything on a leash, behind a fence, in a corral, or otherwise confined should be freed immediately, and anyone who refuses to do so should make the alignment switch to evil. What form the tools take is mostly irrelevant. If we could have kept horses in a dragonshard and still moved wagons, we would never have done otherwise. Agreed. It's not fair to the creatures involved, and you WILL find people who care about it - the Ashbound particularly, other druids to a lesser extent, a spirit shaman if you can find one. But most people just don't care, or ever pause to consider that an elemental might have feelings. I think the closer analogy would be nuclear power. If a common person is concerned about the airship, it's less likely to be because he's thinking "Awww, what about the poor elemental?" and more that he's afraid "If that elemental gets loose, it might burn down the city!" And if you DO free the elemental, unless you send it home, burning down the city will be pretty high on its agenda - burning things is what it's all about. It's certainly a good campaign hook. And just as is, the Ashbound care. I just want to be clear that it's not something most people consider as slavery or think about at all. If people could argue that warforged - who are human in shape, can speak common, and can have a logical conversation with you - have no soul and no rights, do you suppose you'll have much luck winning support for the ball of animated fire that only speaks Ignan and not a lot of that, and whose main pastime is burning things? And since elementals aren't found in Eberron without the use of magic, many people assume that they are created by the gnomes in the first place.
makeshiftwings 07-01-05, 05:32 PM	Also, in d&d all animals and even plants are sentient and self-aware as well. A druid can cast Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants on them and probably have a more meaningful conversation than it could with a Fire Elemental. The terms "self-aware" and "sentient" are basically meaningless and unprovable in real life anyway. Most people in the real world don't attribute the terms to animals in the real world, and it's doubtful that we'd attribute them to something like a fire elemental if we ever saw one.
Edymnion 07-01-05, 05:39 PM	Also, in d&d all animals and even plants are sentient and self-aware as well. A druid can cast Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants on them and probably have a more meaningful conversation than it could with a Fire Elemental. The terms "self-aware" and "sentient" are basically meaningless and unprovable in real life anyway. Most people in the real world don't attribute the terms to animals in the real world, and it's doubtful that we'd attribute them to something like a fire elemental if we ever saw one.Its the magic of the spell that grants limited sentience to those plants and animals, they don't have it normally. By D&D rules, a creature is considered sentient only if it's normal Intelligence is 3 or higher.
Hellcow 07-01-05, 07:06 PM	By D&D rules, a creature is considered sentient only if it's normal Intelligence is 3 or higher. To take the side of the Traveler, can you find me any place in D&D rules that says this? Under the description of "Intelligence", the PHB says "An animal has an intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike Intelligence has a score of at least 3." On the other hand, a few of the dictionary definitions of "sentience" include: 1. Having sense perception; conscious. 2.Experiencing sensation or feeling. I would certainly say that animals are sentient in D&D. Iron ore, on the other hand, is not. Unless you have an actual use of the word "sentient" in the rules? Its the magic of the spell that grants limited sentience to those plants and animals, they don't have it normally. What makes you say this? You can comprehend and communicate with animals. You are able to ask questions of and receive answers from animals, although the spell doesn't make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly towards you, it may do some service for you." A few observations about this: The range of the spell is personal. The description says that YOU gain the "ability to comprehend." By comparison, speak with dead targets one dead creature and says "you grant a semblance of life and intellect to a corpse" - not "You can comprehend and communicate with corpses." Speak with animals affects you, not the creatures you are speaking with. It clearly states what it DOESN'T do: "the spell doesn't make (animals) any more friendly or cooperative than normal." When I run the spell it my campaign, I'm always highlighting the fact that these are animals, not people, and the conversation reflects that. But that's the point. The creature's intelligence and behavior hasn't changed at all - you've simply gained the ability to communicate with it. It specifically distinguishes between "cunning" and "stupid" animals. Again, I see these as traits of the animal itself. After all, a friendly animal may do a service for you - it says nothing about this needing to be completed within the duration of the spell. As a DM, if someone went up to an ox bound to a cart, used speak with animals, and said "How do you like pulling the cart?", would you have the ox say "I love it!!!" If no, and the ox says something more like "This is boring, it sucks. I want this thing off my back and soft earth beneath my hooves." - would you start a campaign against the slave-driver wagoneer? If you're a druid, you just might - but how many cityfolk do you think would support you? And do you think that the instant your spell wears off, the ox is no longer discontent? Unlike the ox, the elemental doesn't eat, sleep, or breathe. It has no discernable anatomy. It's far more dangerous... "They are as wild and dangerous as the forces that birthed them," according to the MM. And, as unlikely as this is to ever come up, unlike an animal or a warforged, they can't be resurrected, making it very easy for people to claim that they have no souls.
makeshiftwings 07-01-05, 07:16 PM	Its the magic of the spell that grants limited sentience to those plants and animals, they don't have it normally. By D&D rules, a creature is considered sentient only if it's normal Intelligence is 3 or higher. That's not neceessarily true. It says that generally, animals have at most an Int of 2, and anything higher is a magical beast. But it doesn't say that a half-orc with an Int of 2 is "non-sentient", or that having an Int of 2 has any particular effect on anything. I would say that by the rules, only Int 0 or Int - is "non-sentient", as per golems. And I don't think the rules say that the "Speak with..." spells and abilities grant the things you speak with sentience. Because they give examples of plants and animals remembering what has been going on around them; how would they have remembered such things if they weren't sentient at the time? But as I said, the word "sentient" is pretty meaningless. What exactly do you take "sentience" as meaning? The dictionary definition that Hellcow gave applies to all living things.
Hellcow 07-01-05, 07:34 PM	They are as wild and dangerous as the forces that birthed them... To me, this is the key to elementals. They aren't necessarily happy or sad. They are FIRE and AIR, primal forces that experience the world in ways we, as creatures of flesh and blood, can't begin to comprehend. They can communicate, but the MM specifically states that they prefer not to - not just that they don't like talking to people, but that they prefer not to communicate at all. So I have no problem with there being people who think binding them is inhumane - but that doesn't mean that once freed, the elementals will be grateful or acknowledge the actions of the character. In my opinion, if it can't go home, that freed fire elemental will start burning everything it can. With an Int of 4, I doubt it comprehends the idea that "You've been pulled from another plane of existence and bound into an item" - IT certainly doesn't have Knowledge (the planes). It simply knows that home is a place of fire, and that this is not fire. Too cold. Too... solid. Filled with the horror of water, and these water-bag creatures with their strange chattering. Burn it! Burn everything and perhaps it can become home again!
anarco_rata 07-01-05, 07:34 PM	Leaving the sentinent or not discussion, i think most people would understand that first: elementals are beyond our compression, so our conception of slavery could or could not apply... maybe they're free just existing, indiferent of the nature of this existance (i see it this way) second: even druids would agree that elemental binding is part of nature. The humans need the help of the elementals and animals to evolve, as long as this doesn't break nature's order (killing a wholle specie), it has nothing wrong, its part of live. It is the same with the food chain, as we humans predate other beigns for food. Thats just my opinion, however. Notice that im pro-animals rights, but also know that humans need tho work with animals to achieve several things...
Psionycx 07-01-05, 09:37 PM	This is a highly subjective question. Many druids that might consider the "enslavement" of animals abhorrent might also see binding elementals as a normal part of their activity. Containing spirits of beings is by far the most common way to imbue a kind of sentience into an otherwise inanimate item. Like the magical Valenar scimitar in Shadows of the Last War with the horse spirit in it. Was it wrong of the Valenar to bind the horse's spirit into a sword? It doesn't seem to be complaining, but only being a horse does it know any better? People often tend to anthropomophize other things. And in D&D this debate can get pretty deep. After all, with the right spell you can even speak with stones! So it can get to the point where one can adopt a stance that simply existing is a kind of tyranny. You might try to live a "cruelty free" life as a Vegan, but then some druid that has cast a few too many Speak with Plants spells is going to come around and castiate for "murdering our green brothers and sisters and devouring them". Plus, all things needing balance, what happens if they did release all the elementals? Odds are that means that there would be that many more horses and oxen being hitched up to wagons and plows to take up the workload formerly filled by bound elementals.
makeshiftwings 07-01-05, 09:45 PM	I think it's a difficult concept for most of us in the "real" world to grasp how a society would deal with having a bunch of different intelligent species. Everyone in the real world is human, but that doesn't stop us from enslaving and dehumanizing each other. And it's easy for people in the real world to say "Humans have (souls, sentience, feelings, emotions, etc.), but everything else doesn't." That would be harder to say if there were, for example, elves, who acted almost just like us but with pointier ears. Even stranger if there were things that were vastly more intelligent than us, like dragons. So I would say that people in Eberron don't generally share our belief of "some things are sentient, some things aren't", and instead think of everything on a sliding scale. As in animals are sentient, but goblins are more sentient, and humans are more sentient, and dragons are more sentient. I think the warforged are a special case, since most constructs act very much unintelligently, so deciding that warforged were actually alive was somewhat a novel idea.
Hellcow 07-01-05, 09:50 PM	goblins are more sentient, and humans are more sentient... How so? Poor goblins don't even have an Intelligence penalty...
happymoocow 07-02-05, 12:17 AM	that hellcow picture freaks me out.
Euangelion 07-02-05, 12:42 AM	that hellcow picture freaks me out. You get used to it.
Radkres 07-02-05, 01:01 AM	Cogito ergo sum I think, Therefore I exist Is the basis of our Philosophic system. Is an elemental aware of it's self? Yes Can an elemental generate complex thoughts or Ideas? No information can be obtained to tell us if they can. Can an elemental feel pain? Yes Do elementals have a social group or society? No evidence of ether. Do elementals generate art? No evidence or if they do it is too alien for us to consider as art. From these observations we can suggest than an Elementals are the equivalent of animals in thinking. So can an elemental be happy the answer is yes. If they are well treated and cared for they can be made happy.
Hellcow 07-02-05, 01:19 AM	Can an elemental feel pain? Yes Based on what information? An elemental can be killed if sufficient damage is inflicted upon it. But it is immune to critical hits and stunning. On the other hand, they are NOT immune to subdual damage, ability damage, or most strangely, disease. I suppose one could argue that subdual damage is essentially pain. But their anatomy is clearly quite different from that of any normal organic creature, as shown both by the immunity to critical hits and the "it's a big ball of water" thing. If they are well treated and cared for they can be made happy. So, going by the assumption that elementals can catch diseases (which still seems odd) and feel pain, let's consider a few things. An elemental doesn't need food. It doesn't need sleep. It can apparently feel pain and become ill, and if it can take subdual damage it can be injured by environmental effects. By binding an elemental, you are protecting it from the hostile environment. You are protecting it from any source of subdual damage and from disease. For that matter, it's safe from LETHAL damage while bound. It doesn't derive pleasure from good food, as an animal might, because it doesn't eat. So how is binding the elemental NOT treating it well? It's actually safer bound than it would be loose in Khorvaire (something the people planning to free it may want to consider, unless they have a way to return it to its plane of origin). So the real question is: what MAKES an elemental happy? It's not food. Lack of pain is certainly a good thing, even if we don't know if they are capable of feeling pleasure beyond a lack of pain. In lack of anything else, I've always seen it as being driving by their element. For the air elemental it is flight. For the fire elemental it is burning. They are the pure force of mature given form, and their pleasures aren't those of humanity. Thus, the Zil binder would argue that a) the binding process actually protects the elemental; and b) the experience of powering the vessel/item is exhilarating in its own right. For the airship elemental, propelling the ship through the air is a chance to exercise its full power - and this is as close to pleasure as the elemental can feel. At least that's what the ZIL says... Then again, who trusts a gnome?
Iron Cobra 07-02-05, 04:21 AM	It's wrong, but i think the majority of those who participate in this trade don't necessarily do it for the derivation of pleasure it might bring.
Dansan 07-02-05, 04:50 AM	By binding an elemental, you are protecting it from the hostile environment. You are protecting it from any source of subdual damage and from disease. For that matter, it's safe from LETHAL damage while bound. It doesn't derive pleasure from good food, as an animal might, because it doesn't eat. So how is binding the elemental NOT treating it well? It's actually safer bound than it would be loose in Khorvaire (something the people planning to free it may want to consider, unless they have a way to return it to its plane of origin). Hmm. This sounds somewhat like people that are declared insane and put in a protected environment to keep both themselves and people in the outside world safe. So, the insane person is in fact safer than on the outside world. But are those people happy? Who knows for the truly insane what makes them happy, but at least they are safer. I agree that at least in this, we are more humane to create a safe environment than letting them roam free. However, this brings me to the point I wish to make. Insane people are already here on this world, and it is a responsibility of society to take care of these people. Elementals however are not only bound into service, they are also taken from their own homeplane where, assumably, they would be most happy. To me, that is actually worse than actually using them to fuel weapons and transportation. And it is small wonder that any freed elemental might feel the need for some revenge once it escapes its abductors (if of course, elementals are able to feel such emotions). Final point is on immortality. Yes, perhaps it is only a speck in an immortal life to be trapped for perhaps centuries, but that doesn't mean time suddenly changes. A year is still a year. Just look at all the tragic vampire stories on how they try to "live" through all the centuries, wretched and alone. Being immortal does not alter the flow of time. Unless, of course, elementals experience time in a whole different way, if at all.
The 8th Samurai 07-02-05, 05:53 AM	In the module Shadows of the Last War the fire elementals attack the PCS because "They have no desire the return to their prison. The elementals believe that the party has come to restore the binding spells, so they attack without mercy." Also, in the Eberron novel Marked for Death a character said "That's an elemental creature of fire. The draonmarked shipwrights who created this craft bound it into this ring with powerful magic. Break that arch, and you let loose the elemental. It might not be too happy about being bound up all that time. It might decide to take it out on the child behind the wheel." Also, in ECS page 267 it states "Heirs of House Lyrandar and House Orien use their dragonmark abilities, enhanced by special dragonmark focus items, to impose their will on the bound elementals that provide propulsion to the vessels. A character at the helm of an elemental vessel can telepathically command the bound elemental to move the vessel forward or backward, turn the vessel, speed it up, slow it down, or stop it. In order to make the elemental obey any of these commands, an unmarked character must win an opposed Charisma check against the elemental. If the elemental wins the opposed check, it either continues with the current course of movement or brings the vehicle to an immediate stop, according to its whim." To me this all states that the elementals do not like being bound in the craft. I would play it in my campaign as such. But again, any D&D campaign can be modified to suit the DM. Thus, if you are a DM and believe the elementals wouldn't care about being bound, they won't.
happymoocow 07-02-05, 08:49 AM	Cogito ergo sum I think, Therefore I exist Is the basis of our Philosophic system. Often times people use latin to bluff knowing what they are talking about. If you want to make philosophical assertions by all means do provide a warrent for them. Have you ever thought that maybe you don't exist. Just because you think doesn't mean that your past is real. Someone could've just made you and conjured the past. OH no how can you prove your past is real? You can't prove your past. Don't you get it. You're an idiot! Of course you believe that you are real. After all I'm just talkin crazy. ~ I don't know about you, but I will myself to what I have become. I made myself therefor I exist.
Minister_for_Moral_Truth 07-02-05, 09:11 AM	How so? Poor goblins don't even have an Intelligence penalty... Because humans are humans, and therefore concider themselves to be of a higher order than mere goblin brutes. Most of them dont even bathe for gods' sakes. And have you seen the way those vicious brutes are allways fighting one another? Disgusting. It's like I allways say... And so-on. Never underestimate peoples' habbit of confusing diferent with inferior. :D
Hellcow 07-02-05, 11:52 AM	In the module Shadows of the Last War the fire elementals attack the PCS because "They have no desire the return to their prison. The elementals believe that the party has come to restore the binding spells, so they attack without mercy." Minor factor: I wrote the adventure, and originally that scene didn't use fire elementals at all - it used living flaming spheres. It was changed during editing. If I'd put elementals there (and frankly, I wouldn't have - that's a gnome thing) I certainly wouldn't have described their behavior in this manner. Again, with an Intelligence of 4 and no knowledge skills, you're telling me they understand the concept that "a human wizard drew me from my dimension into a new one and bound me into an object, then I was released, but these humans could do the same thing"? Does it even understand that there ARE different planes? If the elemental wins the opposed check, it either continues with the current course of movement or brings the vehicle to an immediate stop, according to its whim." And yet it NEVER, say, crashes the vehicle or even changes its direction. If you don't ever tell it to do anything, it does nothing at all. This supports MY belief that the elemental is, fundamentally, asleep. When you are issueing a command, you are effectively waking it up for a moment; it either says "Leave me alone!" and keeps doing what it was doing, or "Err? What am I doing? Stop!" and either way, goes right back to sleep. Following this idea, being imprisoned isn't terribly unpleasant because it's barely aware of its surroundings. On the other hand, being RELEASED suddenly puts it in an unnatural, highly unpleasant environment. It has no way of understanding what has happened, but it knows that what is going on right now is unpleasant. I think it might be happier bound - though it would be happier still being returned to its home - but I don't think it's going to identify with humans enough to have any sense that they could do any of these things. I don't think it knows it's BEEN taken from its home - for all it knows, the world has completely changed around it. Again, no Knowledge (the planes), no Spellcraft. And I don't think it recognizes the difference between a human and a dire duck. They are both strange creatures made of mostly water, with arms and legs and anatomy, who make a lot of meaningless noise. To me this all states that the elementals do not like being bound in the craft. My point is that the elementals don't KNOW they're bound. What they don't like is being in this plane at all - and once they're released, they will definitely be unhappy. Now, as has been said above, whether or not BINDING the elementals is a crime, bringing them to the plane at all is clearly doing something that is unpleasant for the elementals. My point is that freeing the elemental may actually be an UNKIND action unless you are prepared to return it to its home. Also, for Intelligence comparisons: A medium elemental has an Int of 4. A griffon has an Int of 5. A griffon clearly does experience the world in much the same way as we do, wants good food, comfortable surroundings, etc. So where's the rallying cry to free the griffons being used in Sharn's Race of Eight Winds and Skyblade tournaments? Surely it's unethical to use an intelligent creature in bloodsports. (And that doesn't beging to touch the pegasus with the Intelligence of 10 - obviously, they have to be convinced to participate, but surely if they understood there were alternatives...)
stone_dog 07-02-05, 12:26 PM	I hope that Magic of Eberron gives a little more detail on the nature of elementals. Pure elementals to me have always been like the most basic of robots in their behavior. They have a very limited number of things they can do, understand and communicate about. They have no desires to satisfy, no ambitions to fulfill and no needs other than the primal and alien compulsion to support the essence that it is based on. You might as well ask yeast if it is happy being beer which, given advanced enough magics you could probably do and the answer would be something like "Huh?". An elemental could not even pass a Turing test since you couldn't even get it to understand "try and behave like a human."
Hellcow 07-02-05, 12:40 PM	One more point on earlier subjects is the everpresent reminder that however comfortable people are with magic in Eberron, they still don't own the Monster Manual or the Player's Handbook. THEY don't know "All animals have an Int of 1 or 2" - but they DO know that "gnomes can talk to badgers, and occasionally, get the badgers to do things for them." They know that a tree might have a dryad, could be a treant, or for that matter an awakened druid. So I think most people probably do have a fairly animistic view. In a world where any random tree MIGHT be able to talk to you, can you be certain that the oak next to your house isn't? That mouse could be a familiar, a weremouse, or just hanging around because the local ranger asked it to. And yet, nonetheless, in spite of KNOWING that a druid could come along and talk to the ox hitched up to the wagon, they still hitch oxen up to wagons. They still chop down trees to make houses. As people have said, we do horrible things to humans - and it hasn't been that long since human slavery was a common practice in most of OUR "civilized countries". Eberron *isn't* a mirror of the modern world, and I think most people won't let concerns about animal sentience force them to walk when they could ride. How's this tie to the subject of the thread? If I know that a druid COULD talk to my ox, if I know that my ox would appreciate better food and less work, but I still work him to the bone and feed him old oats - I don't think I'm going to be worrying about the plight of the big ring of fire on the airship. I'd also say the existence of feudalism would just enhance this. The king has the right to command the nobles. The nobles have the right to command the peasants. And the peasant? He at least has the right to command his ox. The gnomes have enforced their dominion over the elementals, thus earning the right to rule.
Edymnion 07-02-05, 01:10 PM	Cogito ergo sum I think, Therefore I existWhich is actually a famous misquote, actually. What he said was "I doubt, therefore I am". The basic principle was that he started with the basis that nothing exhisted until it was proven that it did. The very lowest level he used was himself. Did he exist? Since he was doubting his own existance, he must therefore exist in order to doubt it. He never said "I think, therefore I am" in any shape, form, or fashion. :) Heh, and speaking in character for one of mine that just got their arm burned off by a released Fire Elemental "Who cares what they think, the only good elemental is a bound elemental!" :)
greatfrito 07-02-05, 02:33 PM	*stands for a second* *looks around* *scribbles with a marker on a big sheet of poster-board* *holds up sign that says "Elementals Make the World Go Round"* *marches around, preaching that Elementals are for binding* Look, honestly, in-game and out I don't -care- if the elemental is happy. In-game, the Zilargo gnomes would explain to me carefully as Keith did (very in-character, by the way) that a) the binding process actually protects the elemental; and b) the experience of powering the vessel/item is exhilarating in its own right. For the airship elemental, propelling the ship through the air is a chance to exercise its full power - and this is as close to pleasure as the elemental can feel. Out of Game the game designer, who does actually have a pretty good idea of how this should all work, says that the elementals a.) Don't mind too much, b.) are mostly asleep, and c.) wouldn't know what was going on if they -were- in pain. But hey, don't mind me, I just plan to learn the art of Binding from the Zil and use it in my own creations. No biggie. :D
Hellcow 07-02-05, 02:38 PM	It's this kind of biased and half- :censored:ed justification that slave owners used back in the civil war..."inferior" and crap like that :nonono: Which is EXACTLY the point. You're viewing this through the eyes of modern civilization and ethical sophistication. Khorvaire is NOT our world, and to the degree that it is, it probably has more in common with the 19th century than the 21st. More important, how DO you think this would play out in our world? Here's how I see it: Scientist discovers clean, permanent energy source. Buy an elemental car, and never have to buy gas again. The energy is drawn from another dimension. It's safe as houses. Radical scientists claim "Elemental energy is sentient!" Mass populace, who like not paying for gas, dismiss this as the opinions of the lunatic fringe. "My car's never complained." Elemental is freed, goes on mass burning spree. Now there is fear: "Is elemental energy dangerous?" GM promises to put safety measures into to ensure no more elemental "meltdowns". PETE - People for Ethical Treatment of Elementals - is formed, lobbies for anti-elemental bills in Congress. And people keep driving elemental cars... Is anyone on this board going to argue FOR the testing of cosmetic products on animals? And yet, how many people in the world USE cosmetics? For that matter, we continue to use fossil fuels which threaten the environment for EVERYONE, as opposed to just the beast pulling the car. Individuals may be good people. But as a speicies, we're short-sighted, selfish, and certainly human-centric. It's easy to take the ethical stand when you, thanks to the source material, have absolute evidence that you are right - and, of course, when you don't live in the world, and have never, for example, seen a freed fire elemental burn down your house. We KNOW the elemental has an Intelligence of 4 - but how or why should the peasant, whose only experience with elementals is having heard that there are Lyrandar ships surrounded by rings of fire? As I've said all along, I think there are people like the Ashbound who would argue the point: humanity has no right to cage the forces of nature, and what is being done is worse than inhumane, it's unnatural. But that doesn't mean that the people of Eberron as a whole are ethical paragons who are actually more morally advanced that we are. Though with that said, I maintain what I've said all along: the trapped elemental is in a dormant state, and unless you can send it back home, freeing it is probably a greater form of torture than leaving it bound. The simple solution - "Break the lightning rail! Free the elementals!" is not necessarily the kindest one.
Gurv 07-02-05, 02:41 PM	I hereby declare the use of automobiles to be a form of slavery. As creatures created by man, it is our responsibility to see that they are not abused and taken advantage of as a crude form of transportation and brute strength. It is not our place to decide when and where such noble creatures are allowed to go. It is obvious that they are sentient, as evidenced by the fact that many can communicate via the use of their dashboard lights. There are likewise many documented cases of humans learning to understand the primitive language of automobiles, which they use to indicate things like "my belts are worn", "I need oil" and "it is too cold to move". Some specimens have even mastered our tongues, which they use to communicate their own alien concerns, like "the door is ajar". Still, there are those who would argue that automobiles, left to their own devices, would do nothing, or cause endless destruction and havoc. But I ask, does this make them any less deserving of freedom? Does this mean that we should take away that freedom, and place ourselves into the role of deciding what is best for these creatures? No. It is clear that the use of other beings, without consent or compensation, is slavery and therefore wrong. Whether a creature is born, created, or summoned, slavery is an evil which must be fought in all shapes and forms. Or, we could acknowledge that elementals are not like people and that just because the MM gives them mental stats doesn't mean that they have the same kind of mentality that creatures from our world do. Or at least that even if they do, it should be easy to understand why the people of Khorvaire haven't made that realization yet. Elemental binding is at worst, on the same level as using horses to pull wagons and dogs to guard warehouses.
Hellcow 07-02-05, 02:48 PM	In-game, the Zilargo gnomes would explain to me carefully as Keith did (very in-character, by the way)... Which is the key. Are you looking at this from an in-character perspective, or as an ethical, 20th-century human looking at a copy of the Monster Manual and considering the impact of Int 4? Do you speak Ignan or have Knowledge (the planes)? Have you ever actually met an elemental? Again, remember that you DON'T SEE ELEMENTALS IN THE WILD. We can at least sympathize for the dolphin in the tuna net because we see lots of pictures of dolplhins and how cute they are, we hear about how intelligent they are, and they show up in movies and books. Elementals? Not so much. I doubt anyone's written an epic poem called "Flicker", about a boy and his fire elemental - "What's that, Flicker? Little Billy has fallen down the Water Wierd and needs help?" Druids and spirit shamans will feel differently, but most people don't deal with THEM either. As I've said before, I think the analogy for most people is less one of slavery and more akin to nuclear power: people aren't as concerned about the feelings of the elemental, but rather what would happen if it got loose. Obviously there ARE people like the Ashbound, who ask these questions (actually, I don't think they ask, they just smash). And, I think many Ashbound are in the camp of assuming the elemental would be happier freed and potentially causing more harm than good by releasing it into the wild. But the question is whether the standard citizen of Khorvaire is a party to slavery every time he rides an airship - and I think the answer is that such a thing would never cross his mind.
stone_dog 07-02-05, 03:22 PM	For more fun regarding a study about modern society reacting to bound elementals I direct people to GURPS Technomancer (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/technomancer/). It is out of print, but a great read about a world where magic returns with the Trinity nuclear weapon test. My copy is in one of these boxes for moving, but there is a group that goes around freeing bound elementals. They say that the elementals who fight along side them want to free their brethren, but really it is just a handy excuse to go nuts with their powers and have an ally group that will make sure they have the chance to do it again. Elementals are sociopaths in the classic sense. They have no restraint at all because it is not in their nature to restrain themselves. They exult in their primal essences without the ability for remorse, regret or compassion. I can see the idea that they are very uncomfortable being here rather than in Fernia or Lammania, but I can't imagine that they have the cognitive ability to know why. This is probably why elementals you encounter in an adventure are almost always hostile. Overwhelmed with the alien environment they are suddenly in they basically become rabid. Okay, if people were somehow binding salamanders (the D&D type naturally, not the classic elemental or the amphibians ) then that might be different. Salamanders are a fully aware race with an actual society. Sure they are evil critters, but they are sentient and sapient beings that would recognize imprisonment. A fire elemental is a walking bonfire that can talk to you about burning things, but would really rather set you on fire and probably wouldn't talk to you unless magically compelled. They have no society. They have no standards of behavior that doesn't relate directly to setting things on fire. Elementals are "as wild and dangerous as the forces that birthed them." Elementals are not personifications. They are manifestations of primal and uncaring forces. Likening them to humans, animals or even celestials and fiends is inherantly a futile effort. And now the obligatory IMO disclaimer.
Siran Dunmorgan 07-02-05, 04:14 PM	In the module Shadows of the Last War the fire elementals attack the PCS because "They have no desire the return to their prison. The elementals believe that the party has come to restore the binding spells, so they attack without mercy." Also, in the Eberron novel Marked for Death a character said "That's an elemental creature of fire. The draonmarked shipwrights who created this craft bound it into this ring with powerful magic. Break that arch, and you let loose the elemental. It might not be too happy about being bound up all that time. It might decide to take it out on the child behind the wheel." Also, in ECS page 267 it states "Heirs of House Lyrandar and House Orien use their dragonmark abilities, enhanced by special dragonmark focus items, to impose their will on the bound elementals that provide propulsion to the vessels. A character at the helm of an elemental vessel can telepathically command the bound elemental to move the vessel forward or backward, turn the vessel, speed it up, slow it down, or stop it. In order to make the elemental obey any of these commands, an unmarked character must win an opposed Charisma check against the elemental. If the elemental wins the opposed check, it either continues with the current course of movement or brings the vehicle to an immediate stop, according to its whim." To me this all states that the elementals do not like being bound in the craft. I would play it in my campaign as such. But again, any D&D campaign can be modified to suit the DM. Thus, if you are a DM and believe the elementals wouldn't care about being bound, they won't. I'm going to go out on a limb and respond to this with real-world examples. Okay. First off, do any of you have any real-world experience conjuring elementals? No. Really. Like "Golden Dawn"-style elemental rituals, with the archangels and elemental lords of the quarters? Hmm... okay. I'll have to simplify this then, and re-cast it in Dungeons & Dragons terms: Conjured elementals behave exactly as the conjurer expects them to behave; since wizards expect them to be rebellious, they are. One of the aspects of a wizard's or sorceror's power is that they see themselves imposing their will on the world, that the powers that underlie reality are to be dominated by force of will, whether that force arises from the intellect as it does for wizards, or charisma as it does for sorcerors. In real-world occult ritual, control of elemental powers by wizards is accomplished by hitting them with the name of something more powerful than they are: a fire elemental might be conjured and controlled in the names of the archangel and planetary intelligences ruling fire, for example. By doing so, by seeing their power as a form of dominion, or imposition of will on the world, the wizard sets the pattern for domination and rebellion. By contrast, the druid in Dungeons & Dragons (or shaman, in the real world) believes that conjury of elementals—or any other force of nature—is a partnership between the druid and the elemental powers. The elemental may be bargained with, and, treated with respect, willingly serves: there is no mighty conjury of names of greater powers, only the druid's awareness seeking the elemental power, and the power responding. It might be the same elemental power, but it is the perspective of the conjurer that gives that power shape and imbues it with will. It's possible, in Dungeons & Dragons terms, for a wizard to adopt this less antagonistic view of the elemental powers, and learn to conjure them in a manner less fraught with peril. We call this process "taking levels in Druid". The upshot of all of this is that most conjured, bound, elementals aren't happy because the people who conjured and bound them don't expect them to be—and that attitude shaped the elementals themselves. It is, in theory, possible for a forward-looking sect of druids to perform the necessary conjury of the elementals for binding to various items and conveyances: if so, those elementals would not be rebellious or distraught. However, in rules terms, this would require a feat worded differently from the Bind Elemental feat described in the Eberron Campaign Setting. —Siran Dunmorgan P.S. Incidentally, this leaves aside the discussion of higher-order free-willed elementals, such as the elemental rulers. But these are not normally the sort of creatures conjured to power one's elemental bound armor.
Hellcow 07-02-05, 04:40 PM	One more thing to consider when thinking about the reaction of the common person: Bound elementals don't APPEAR to be alive. A human slave looks like you or me, and you may hear his lamentations, see his expression of despair, and be able to say "There but for the grace of the Sovereigns go I." The ox at the cart may low miserably and be covered with mud, and it at least has a face you can look at. The fire elemental bound into the airship? It's a ring of fire. That's it. No face. It doesn't talk, or sing, or do anything besides burn. The only person who even knows that it HAS a mind of any sort of the captain, because he's the one who has to push it to do something. Again, for the common man, it is more like nuclear power than a horse at the cart. For that matter, when a comoner sees a flaming sword, he doesn't know if it's flaming, flaming burst, or has a fire elemental bound within. (I'm now seeing protesters throwing blood on the fighter with his flaming sword, as per the anti-fur movement.) So Ashbound aside, I think you're more likely to see protesters trying to free the griffons and pegasi used in Sharn sporting events than a strong free-the-elemental movement; for most people bound elementals are just another source of magical power - another casualty of progress. The Ashbound will do it, and will cause chaos as a result, as shipments are lost and freed elementals go on rampages; I think this will set most people agaisnt the Ashbound, as opposed to viewing them as heroes.
Gurv 07-02-05, 04:51 PM	(I'm now seeing protesters throwing blood on the fighter with his flaming sword, as per the anti-fur movement.) That would be ironic. Unlike most fur-wearers, fighter are used to being covered in blood, as are their swords...and most would happily oblige you in your desire to coat it further.
Hellcow 07-02-05, 04:55 PM	That would be ironic. Unlike most fur-wearers, fighter are used to being covered in blood, as are their swords...and most would happily oblige you in your desire to coat it further. Good point. How about soot? Or better yet, oil? "Draw your flaming sword NOW, Mr. Fighter, and let's see what the elemental has to say about it." The point is an interesting one, though. If I don't have Spellcraft and the like, I can't tell the differences between a flaiming sword and an elemental-bound sword. So, are there anti-elementalists who assume that ANY fire-related magic involves trapped elementals, who go around smashing everbright lanterns and who think that every time a wizard casts a fireball another elemental is lost?
Psionycx 07-02-05, 05:31 PM	Anyone familiar with the concept of "breaking" a horse? That's when you train an otherwise untrained horse to accept being saddled and ridden. Being ridden by humanoids is not a natural instinct of horses and some highly-idealized fictional portrayals aside, horses do not instinctively expect to have a human hop onto their backs and force them to move according to his/her will. Is the horse aware of itself? Yes. Does it feel pain? Yes. Is pain typically a part of training the horse to accept a rider? Yes. Is the horse being broken being ultimately trained to not live a natural, free life, but to accept bondage and obey humanoid masters? Yes. The elementals fearful of characters possibly having binding spells are a lot like a partially-trained horse fearful of an approaching human with a riding crop. Yet horses are, ultimately, less alien than are elementals, at least from the perspective of most humanoid races. In fact, an average human has a better chance of achieving some level of basic communication with a horse, even without magic, than they would with an elemental. In fact, the elemental would probably be me inclined towards what would be construed as hostile behavior even without provocation. Fire elementals, for example, live to burn things, and they get a kick out of consuming/buring Prime planar lifeforms and objects. A Fire Elemental will burn an innocent child without a second thought. And in many ways it is harder to deal with than a wild horse for example. Elementals certainly bear no special regard for humanoids and will harm/kill them without a second thought. So at best most people on Eberron see binding elementals into devices as being little different from breaking and hitching a wild horse up to wagon. You're merely taking a "beast" and putting it to work.
happymoocow 07-02-05, 07:10 PM	Wow someone picked up on the misquote.
Radkres 07-03-05, 12:12 AM	Which is actually a famous misquote, actually. What he said was "I doubt, therefore I am". The basic principle was that he started with the basis that nothing exhisted until it was proven that it did. The very lowest level he used was himself. Did he exist? Since he was doubting his own existance, he must therefore exist in order to doubt it. He never said "I think, therefore I am" in any shape, form, or fashion. :) So it would be Dubitor ergo sum I doubt, therefore I am Sure a lot of books have it wrong. thanks for the information.
happymoocow 07-03-05, 09:22 AM	Just don't use latin phrases. It does not impress people and people who are familiar with philosophy often ignore those people. See anyone can remember latin phrases, but to formulate an origenal concept now that is something else. I mean when I go hiking I bring a bunch of cats and put them in my tent because my cats are playfull and will kill any bug. I'm sure someone thought of that before me, but I did not hear anyone come up with that idea. It's works okay, because centipedes die from cats and I see that they're dead. But some guy named Steve in California did it before me so I am not origenal. Get the idea. I know it's hard to be origenal, but please if you are going to quote someone provide a warrent. I don't care what any philosopher has to say - they need to prove it and then show what it has to do with the topic at hand to prove their point.
Psionycx 07-03-05, 11:22 AM	One thing that strikes me as I think about this debate is that it could be a plot hook for an inter-House conflict. House Vadalis has long been partnered with house Orien on transportation, and their alliance has been reasonably solid, even after the introduction of the Lightning Rail. But now that House Lyrander, who have always dominated sea travel, are expanding into overland travel with their elemental airships Vadalis may perceive a threat as elemental aircraft begin to reduce the need for animals even further. Worse, Orien has been working increasingly with Lyrander since the airships introduction. Now, the Mark of Handling grants no ability to speak to elementals and it's doubtful that Vadalis cares a whit about whether bound elementals are happy or not. However, if they could stir up sentiment against binding elementals, either through causing accidents or be getting "elemental tights" activist groups started up, that could lead to some interesting house warfare.
Elderich 07-03-05, 12:37 PM	"Je pense, donc, je suis." is the quote. Descartes was french, as was his writings. Some put it in latin to make the idea less accessable, to gain power and control information flow. I think there is a very big differance between slavery and riding a horse. The binding of a man, or any sentient creature WITH the potential to throw down kingdoms and build new ones, or any other ability to create, is fundementaly differant than taming a wild animal with no such potential, and trading it work for protection, care, and food. Reconize that much of the nastyness in human histroy is the result of war and greed (guantanamo)? The idea of an imprisioned sentient workforce to facilitate progress is, to me, very Eberronish. Does one participate in a technology that is driven by a form of slavery? Can one rationalize a differance between supposed slavery and "fair trade"? Do you really have a choice, or are you forced to follow the crowd? Film Noir, no?
Psionycx 07-03-05, 01:01 PM	But as we have pointed out, the nature of "sentience" is subjective in this context. From the perspective of a mammalian humanoid, a horse is probably more "sentient" than an elemental, not less. Remember that these people are not privy to game statistics like Int scores, and what do intelligence scores prove in any event? Left to their own devices elementals don't seem to do much more than burn, blow, wave or otherwise do many of the same things their native element does on it's own. They don't have cultures, use tools, build homes or anything else that organic lifeforms identify as proof of "sentience". They are absolutely ammoral and exhibit no sense of morality that humans can comprehend. They are simply living forces of nature. So the burden of proof lies upon you to justify this claim of "slavery". Is a domesticated animal a "slave"? What about an intelligent magical weapon? What about plants?
greatfrito 07-03-05, 04:59 PM	I think there is a very big differance between slavery and riding a horse. The binding of a man, or any sentient creature WITH the potential to throw down kingdoms and build new ones, or any other ability to create, is fundementaly differant than taming a wild animal with no such potential, and trading it work for protection, care, and food. Hm, I'm tempted to play devil's advocate here and say "They're not fundementally different", but I'm sure someone else will later, and I really do agree with you. However, the bolded part above make me chuckle a little. Oh the terrible, terrible reasons my DM is afraid I'll end up evil. "Wait... did you just bind Bob over there to that cart?" "... Maybe."
Hellcow 07-03-05, 06:45 PM	The binding of a man, or any sentient creature WITH the potential to throw down kingdoms and build new ones, or any other ability to create... Which I think is a big part of the issue. WE know how smart elementals are because we have the MM. But what has an elemental ever created that people know about? Instead, elementals in Eberron are largely destructive in nature. The common farmer is going to be frightened of a fire elemental, not sympathetic towards it. Reconize that much of the nastyness in human histroy is the result of war and greed (guantanamo)? The idea of an imprisioned sentient workforce to facilitate progress is, to me, very Eberronish... Film Noir, no? Now, this is a key to all of the arguments I have made. I'm not trying to say that it's justified, any more than I would say that the purge of the lycanthropes was handled in an appropriate manner. With both these issues, my point is to demonstrate how many people in Eberron could see them as being justified. Ebberon is a world where things AREN'T perfect, where people aren't always ethical, where good people can do bad things out of neglect or indifference. Elemental binding may BE a terrible thing. But that doesn't stop the gnomes from doing it, and in my mind, it won't keep the people of Breland from riding lightning rails or airships. So going back to the very very original question: Are trapped elementals happy? Once again, I feel that bound elementals are more or less asleep, stirring to fitful wakefulness when issued a command. Thus, they are neither happy or unhappy, but they are in an artificially enforced comatose state, which can hardly be seen as fair; they are, without question, sentient beings ripped from their home plane and used by humans for something with no benefit to elementals. Of course, elementals released into Eberron are CERTAINLY unhappy, which is why they are generally violent. But beyond whether they actually ARE happy, the issue is that very few people in Khorvaire actually care if elementals are happy - and quite a few won't even believe that they are sentient. If you've never met a free elemental, you've got no reason to believe that lump of fire has the capacity for thought... and if you HAVE met a free fire elemental, there's a good chance it tried to burn someone or something important to you, which brings us back to Edymnion's point. :) So go, go Ashbound Ranger - but don't expect the sympathy or gratitude of the people of Sharn as you fight for your cause!
glimeral 07-03-05, 08:17 PM	The problem with this argument is it stems from a metagame perspective which is further complicated by 20th centuary thinking, which I might add is far from perfect. You dont have to look far to see how far we still have to go. Lets see we have rampant racism, sexism, religious intolerance, intolerance for sexual orientation or lifestyle choices, use of animals for cosmetic testing, factory-raised chickens whose biorhythums are disturbed by an artificial light so that they produce more eggs, mass-produced livestock which we slaughter in inhumane ways, the killing of animals for clothing, not out of neccessity but vanity, shall I go on?????? And you know something.... A lot of these stem from an aspect of our culture which has much to be said about. Our feelings of moral &/or ethical superiority, which has been a part of western cultures for hundreds of years and is the main cause of 90% of the worlds socio-economic problems. It is this moral superiority that is our biggest downfall... The argument about gay marriages for example would be a non-issue if it wasnt for those people in the world who didnt feel they were morally superior than others, and therefore felt justified in their own minds that their way of life is the best way. So, when I read this thread and I see people proclaiming the "slavery" of elementals, all I say is that you should tend the weeds in your own backyard before you start criticising someone elses. It comes off as hypocritical, and yes, this is about a fictional world, but the principle is still the same. Its a fictional world people, with a fictional culture DIFFERENT from ours. You have to try your best to put your own beliefs asside and adopt the beliefs and societal mindest of the fictional world if you are to understand how it works. I can tell you this right now... Our culture is the most barbaric, self-centered culture to walk the planet which has a major superiority complex which is far from "right". There are cultures out there in our own world which are 10x more tolerant and loving than we are, who have embraced concepts of love and tolerance for hundreds or thousands of years that we are struggling to come to grips with (GLBT issues for example), especially in more tribal societies. If anyone has moral superiority, it is these tribal cultures which slavery was an alien concept to before the conquoring white men came knocking.
Silver Cobra 07-03-05, 08:23 PM	Does that include those with parents from the East who've lived in the West their entire lives, if they adopt a similar mindset?
glimeral 07-03-05, 08:34 PM	I believe strongly in equality, and yes, while I can see that the Eberronians are doing something which I personally feel is unjust, I personally think it is unjust of me to impose my beliefs or way of life on someone else. Because of this, I can often see someone elses point of view (including the fictional point of view shared by Eberronians) with as little judgement as my ego will allow. The ironic thing is that the closer you come to moral "perfection" (if such a thing exists), the less issue you have with the lifestyles of others due to the fact that you come to the realisation that imposing your will on others (in any way) is morally wrong. That means that, to force someone else to live or think in the same way that you do is no better than to limit and control their free will in a manner determined by you, which is in a lot of respects, another form of slavery (although a more emphirical one than physical).
Psionycx 07-03-05, 09:57 PM	I think that the point of the argument here is that Eberron is not a 21st Century Liberal society nor do the people of Eberron have access to a copy of the Monster Manual. My position is not based on contempt for sentient beings, but on the perspective of the people involved. We're all role-players here, so let's look at this from a role-play point of view. What, exactly, is the compelling argument that would convince the average citizen of Khorvaire, or even a member of a dragonmarked House, that elementals are entitled to the same kinds of rights as humanoids? Step back and think before you answer. This is, after all, D&D. People routinely cast Conjuration spells to summon creatures, sometimes intelligent ones, to do their dirty work for them. Arguing that binding elementals is "slavery" is very liberal, but it's not an argument most people in Khorvaire are going to take seriously. Even proving that elementals are "sentient" is not an easy task for people without particular magical or psionic powers. And even then many people will argue that evidence of elemental "sentience", demonstrated by telepathy for example, is nothing more than trickery or illusion. So how do you prove that an elemental is more worthy of freedom than a plowhorse? Bear in mind that you don't have to convince me, you have to convince someone from Khorvaire. What would your argument be?
Alac Luin 07-03-05, 10:41 PM	Phooie, you can't tell me dem elemnos...elem ack... fire thingies smert like me. Dem dun't have 'nuff sence to be born here, dems hava get called here frum somplace yonder.
Siran Dunmorgan 07-03-05, 11:37 PM	At the risk—no, the certainty—of repeating myself: Elementals are sentient, aware, and resent being bound because the spells that wizards use to summon them impose that attitude on them. Elementals on their own are elemental: they are the fundamental forces of nature and no more aware or enslaved than non-magical fire, water, earth or air.[1] What little life and awareness they have is due specifically to their having been conjured, and they take on the aspect their conjurer imposes on them: if summoned by a druid or cleric, they are cooperative, if summoned by a wizard or sorceror, they are antagonistic because that's the pattern established by the conjury. Now, the question of whether it's reasonable to bind them once you have imbued them with this life and sentience... Well, that's what you summoned them for, isn't it? And we're back to debating issues of right and wrong that only the Prophecy can ultimately decide. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] Again, I leave aside the question of elementals that exist as awarenesses without having been conjured: the elemental 'rulers' and their kind, including elemental creatures such as genies. That's an entirely different matter, one addressed in the thread over in Magic & Cosmology on whether and how one goes about binding things other than elementals in Khyber shards.
DoveArrow 07-04-05, 12:54 AM	As founding president of the O.G.R.E society, I am quite happy to see that this subject is getting the overdue attention that it deserves (curious to see who gets that). :P
Elderich 07-04-05, 01:06 AM	The problem with this argument is it stems from a metagame perspectiveI believe anyone could argue this from no more than a knowledge of what is actually being done to the elementals. Yes we do have metagame knowledge. That does not make the observations false, nor does it make it the only possible way we could know this is true.which is further complicated by 20th centaury thinking,The issues of slavery are as old as man. This is not a 20th century issue.So, when I read this thread and I see people proclaiming the "slavery" of elementals, all I say is that you should tend the weeds in your own backyard before you start criticizing someone else’s.It was said long ago as "Remove the rafter form your own eye..." If I go home and beat my wife and kids does it make anything I say wrong? The truth of a critique has nothing to do with the source. I think the point here is Eberron is a dark place, and this is just another way in which it is very dark. If a gnomish artificer KNOWS what it is he is doing, does he give up on GENERATIONS of his peoples work and try to get them to stop? Does he crate a device to release elementals from bondage? Does he find a cave and spend the rest of his life up on a mountain looking to get the rafter out of his eye, and leave the elementals to suffer? What would you do?
Psionycx 07-04-05, 01:20 AM	But again, we need to frame this discussion in the context of Eberron because there is no real world parallel. Technically, isn't it slavery to use Summoning type spells to bring creatures to fight on your behalf? I mean sure, if they get killed they're supposed to reform later. But does that excuse the trauma of being used as cannon fodder in the first place? Likewise, we're caught in a case of subjective morals here. Apparently, based on views on gathering here, animal bondage is okay because they're not "sentient-enough" whereas elemental bondage is wrong because they have a slightly higher Int score. Real world animal rights issues aside, I can imagine that a lot of Druids might see things differently. They might see usage of Eberron animals as labor to be wrong, and care far less about the misuse of elementals because they are other-planar. So rather than examine this issue from a real-world liberal political mindset, we should examine it from the viewpoint of Eberron characters. From where I'm sitting, I think that most people on Khorvaire view elementals as only quasi-sentient at best. They are alien, have no apprent culture, don't make tools or build homes of any kind. A person with the right magic or psionics could tell you that an elemental doesn't like being bound into an airship. But that same spellcaster or psion might also tell you that your horse doesn't like having you ride around on his back. To their point of view, elementals are at best at a level with animals, and not many people are arguing against the enslavement of animals on Eberron. So the idea of "elemental rights" is likely to be confined to philosophical idealists who embrace the idea of "universal community" between lifeforms. Again, they are probably dismissed by most people and may even find opposition from, such as certain druids, who think that it's better to bind elementals than to break horses. How does an elemental rights activist counter argue the point?
Elderich 07-04-05, 01:55 AM	How does an elemental rights activist counter argue the point?No idea. But this is how I do it.But again, we need to frame this discussion in the context of Eberron because there is no real world parallel.How do you know so much about my needs?Technically, isn't it slavery to use Summoning type spells to bring creatures to fight on your behalf?Says you.I mean sure, if they get killed they're supposed to reform later. But does that excuse the trauma of being used as cannon fodder in the first place?NopeLikewise, we're caught in a case of subjective morals here. You might be. Careful with the projecting.Apparently, based on views on gathering here, animal bondage is okay because they're not "sentient-enough" whereas elemental bondage is wrong because they have a slightly higher Int score.Nope. The difference is; if I take my saddle off my horse and head off in the bush, the horse will likely follow me or meet me at home. You thing the elemental will do the same?Real world animal rights issues aside, I can imagine that a lot of Druids might see things differently. They might see usage of Eberron animals as labor to be wrong, and care far less about the misuse of elementals because they are other-planar.I think you have confused labor rights and animal rights. What animal would want to part with a kind gentle owner? The same cannot be said for the elemental, no matter the owner.So rather than examine this issue from a real-world liberal political mindset, we should examine it from the viewpoint of Eberron characters.Are you suggesting some how we haven't?From where I'm sitting, I think that most people on Khorvaire view elementals as only quasi-sentient at best. They are alien, have no apparent culture, don't make tools or build homes of any kind. A person with the right magic or psionics could tell you that an elemental doesn't like being bound into an airship. But that same spellcaster or psion might also tell you that your horse doesn't like having you ride around on his back.As I said, the horse does not want to kill you or die trying. Most people on Khorvaire know enough to run if there is a problem with a device powered by elemental magic.To their point of view, elementals are at best at a level with animals, and not many people are arguing against the enslavement of animals on Eberron.Assumes facts not in evidence.So the idea of "elemental rights" is likely to be confined to philosophical idealists who embrace the idea of "universal community" between lifeforms. Again, they are probably dismissed by most people and may even find opposition from, such as certain druids, who think that it's better to bind elementals than to break horses.I suggest one would not have to go far or dig deep to find a strong undercurrent of "All these magics will be the death of us! It will all be just like the mornlands is we don’t stop the magic use." How many elementals would have to get free before the magic would be banned? Just one would make fertile ground for a free the elementals evangelical organization. I mean what else have people in Eberron to live for? Nothing like giving yourself over to the crusade...
happymoocow 07-04-05, 02:37 AM	Think of it this way. Druids don't raise domesticated animals and make slaves of animals. Sure a druid might tame a beast and ride it or pray for an animal companion. But the fact is the animal likes the druid - wild empathy and the druid trains it with handle animal. It's not forced. So the druid in the game could take an extreme view and defend that view.
The Dreaming Duck 07-04-05, 02:42 AM	Says you. But what do YOU say? You dismiss what seems to me a very valid point - that all types of spellcasters can summon creatures and force them to do their bidding, and how is this not slavery - with a wave of your hand, offering no counter beyond "That's what you say." What do YOU say?" The difference is if I take my saddle off my horse and take my saddle off in the bush, the horse will likely follow me or meet me at home. Your BROKEN and domesticated horse. And actually, I didn't realize horses had that much of a homing instinct, especially if untrained. I certainly haven't seen a trick for that listed in the PHB. The countering point is that the horse has either been raised in captivity or had its wild instincts beaten out of it. Is it any less a slave because you're never allowed it to experience freedom? Domestication IS the Khyber shard that binds the horse. The Ashbounds ARE supposed to view domestication to be an abomination. What animal would not want to part with a kind gentle owner? I could quote you any number of examples of people who have tried to domesticate animals like wolves with disastrous results. The fact that the owner was kind and gentle did not overcome the instincts of the animal. And while we're getting on kind and gentle, Hellcow has stated repeatedly that once the elemental is on Khorvaire, keeping it bound is one of the kindest things you can do for it. It will attack if released because it is in pain, confused, and enraged. The person RELEASING it is the tormentor. Most people on Khorvaire know enough to run if there is a problem with a device powered by elemental magic... Just one would make fertile ground for a free the elementals evangelical organization. So let me see if I follow your argument. People know that bound elementals are safe. Released elementals are dangerous to everyone. Therefore, let's release them? By that logic, people in our world who hate nuclear power should go around BLOWING UP nuclear power plants, not picketing them. You're suggesting that people would intentionally endanger themselves and others - and cause pain to the elementals - because they think elementals are dangerous. Aren't there far safer and more humane forms of protest? I think it's far more likely that masses would view the people freeing elementals as dangerous terrorists, not heroic idealists. How many elementals would have to get free before the magic would be banned? Why, you're absolutely right! And yet... the lightning rail has been around for OVER 180 YEARS and hasn't been banned. On top of that, the houses are exploring NEW WAYS to use elementals! In other words, apparently this happens INCREDIBLY RARELY! As has been noted, even a dispel magic won't free the elemental. So how DO you do it? And if the only way it can happen is through the hard and devoted effort of people struggling to do it - do you blame the people who bound the elemental for the destruction, or do you blame the people who freed it?
stone_dog 07-04-05, 02:55 AM	As has been noted, even a dispel magic won't free the elemental. So how DO you do it? And if the only way it can happen is through the hard and devoted effort of people struggling to do it - do you blame the people who bound the elemental for the destruction, or do you blame the people who freed it? That is an interesting point there. The Zilargo techniques for binding elementals might intrinsically link them to the item. It may well be impossible to separate the beast from the item at all!
DoveArrow 07-04-05, 12:19 PM	That is an interesting point there. The Zilargo techniques for binding elementals might intrinsically link them to the item. It may well be impossible to separate the beast from the item at all! So then perhaps, we should be thinking of elemental bound magic items as a kind of life form unto themselves. That's an interesting concept. Ships, armor, and weapons with low level intelligence. Not exactly an intelligent item, but an item that is able to exert some influence that either helps or, in some cases, hinders the user's ability to use it. In that case, perhaps they aren't really elementals in the traditional sense, anymore. In fact, they may not even be aware of their prevous existence. They are simply an elemental galleon now, or an elemental bound suit of armor, with no recollection of having been bound or realization that they are different in any way. Perhaps it's the equivalent of binding human spirits into flesh bodies at birth. The spirits have no recollection of their previous existence. It's something to think about anyway.
Elderich 07-04-05, 12:26 PM	The last few posts have taken an interesting tangent. I post this for posterity. You dismiss what seems to me a very valid point.You have simply said this is a valid point. You haven't supported the validity of the point. Until you support the point with something it cannot be discussed further, except to say "says you"Your BROKEN and domesticated horse.I suggest you have never seen this done, and are going by very incorrect popular reports. Google it and come back. It is not what you believe. And actually, I didn't realize horses had that much of a homing instinct,I guess you haven’t been around horses much, I would guess any animal, or spent time talking to someone who has.The countering point is that the horse has either been raised in captivity or had its wild instincts beaten out of it.This is the big tell here. Talk to someone who does it. They are plenty wild even if, as you think, they are "domesticated". Some horses are wild, some are gentle. It is the same in the wild. Is it any less a slave because you're never allowed it to experience freedom?[QUOTE=The Dreaming Duck]Again you have no experience in this. What we call domesticated animals are hardly slaves in any sense of the word. The idea only comes from lack of experience or discussion with experienced ones.[QUOTE=The Dreaming Duck] Domestication IS the Khyber shard that binds the horse.Your confused on what "Domestication" is and isn't. How many generations have to live in captivity before a breed is considered "Domesticated"? Domestication is about finding lines of the breed suitable for cohabitation with humans. It is just stupid to keep an animal that is unsuitable for that and try and force them to change. That is not what is done.I could quote you any number of examples of people who have tried to domesticate animals like wolves with disastrous results. The fact that the owner was kind and gentle did not overcome the instincts of the animal.You are asking the wrong question. I KNOW people who have raised wild animals (moose, wolves, wolverines, raccoons, ect.) as pets and had no problems at all. Some of them have bred these and rose successive generations as pets. I can't go near the animal, but they sleep with them.And while we're getting on kind and gentle, Hellcow has stated repeatedly that once the elemental is on Khorvaire, keeping it bound is one of the kindest things you can do for it. It will attack if released because it is in pain, confused, and enraged. The person RELEASING it is the tormentor.Your statement assumes someone released it. Your statement totally avoids the issue of should it have been bound.So let me see if I follow your argument. People know that bound elementals are safe. Released elementals are dangerous to everyone. Therefore, let's release them?Congratulations, you succeeded in NOT understanding what I said.As has been noted, even a dispel magic won't free the elemental. So how DO you do it?Disjunction? The point of my post is the IDEA is wrong that using animals is somehow slavery. Period. Using that idea to show any relation to the situation with bound elementals is fundamentally flawed and should be attacked on the basis that the premise is flawed. Some side points. Hellcow has stated repeatedly that once the elemental is on Khorvaire, keeping it bound is one of the kindest things you can do for it. The KINDEST thing you can do is send it home, right? The point here, as I said, is you have this mess of a problem. What moral decision will you make in the face of a set of bad choices. That is film noir. That is Eberron. As a side point, I edited my post, and you quoted the unedited portions. This is in no way a problem. I have a habit of refreshing the thread I am posting to just before I post to check for such things. A humble suggestion for you. Of course the error is mine, as I should get it right before I post.
DoveArrow 07-04-05, 12:39 PM	Congratulations, you succeeded in NOT understanding what I said. The discussion is getting a little heated, so I thought I'd just remind everyone that we're not talking about real creatures here. We're talking about stat blocks with pictures. Just keep that in mind.
greatfrito 07-04-05, 12:43 PM	So go, go Ashbound Ranger - but don't expect the sympathy or gratitude of the people of Sharn as you fight for your cause! Hmm... I kinda want this to be turned into a complete song now, but lack the talent for poetry.
stone_dog 07-04-05, 12:56 PM	Disjunction? Possibly, but it requires a 17th level spell caster or a 15th level artificer. That is rare enough that it might not be a danger. Hmmm... looking at it further I wouldn't say that you could reliably free an elemental that way. If you disjoin an item the spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. The spell required for elemental binding it Planar Binding. When the magic of Planar Binding ends the elemental either is sent back home or has a chance to break free. Given that the DC for breaking free is at least 19 (DC 15 + ˝ your caster level + your Cha modifier) and elementals have a +0 Cha bonus I would say only 5% of all bound elemental items under a Disjunction actually have the elemental set free to rampage. The rest of them are simply poofed back to wherever they come from. Now that doesn't mean that some spell caster doesn't have a ritual that might pull an elemental whole from an item. Some ceremony with days of chanting, incense and whatnot.
DoveArrow 07-04-05, 01:11 PM	Hmm... I kinda want this to be turned into a complete song now, but lack the talent for poetry. So did the writers of the original theme song for the Power Rangers, but that didn't stop them. If you want to turn it into a song, just do what they did and repeat the same four words over and over again with electric guitar riffs in between.
Psionycx 07-04-05, 01:26 PM	Elderich's position seems to put forward the idea that animals want to be domesticated, and idea I personally think is overly idealistic. It also fails to take into account (again) that Eberron is not 21st Century Earth and that the domestication of animals is not as rigorously standardized as it is in the modern First World. The very fact that it is difficult to break animals, and that many animals being worked with are wild ones, is part of the reason that the Mark of Handling of such a valued resource. Also, House Vadalis practices breeding (much as we do) to specifically redesign natural animals to make them more agreeable to domestication. In many ways that's not much different than the way the Quori breed new humans to serve as their vessels. Elderich, you have not demonstrated why you feel that the comparison between bound elementals and animals is different. In fact, you have only served to underline my earlier point! The needs of domesticated animal are far more comprehensible to a humanoid than are the needs of an elemental. They need food, water and other care that is comparable enough to what humanoids need that their masters can at least feel some empathy towards them. An elemental is an entirely alien being with alien needs. Nonetheless, if domesticated animals inherently like their "kind" masters, then why do they almost invariable need to be contained in some way? Why are horses, sheep and cattle habitually kept in pens and only allowed out when supervised? Because if they'll just come home as you posit why should there be any need to control their movements? Also consider, again, that we're in a pre-modern world here. Very likely, as in the real world, domesticated animals will tend to end up as food. Horses that grow old will be killed, etc. They don't talk about that on those warm-fuzzy equestrian web sites. But the joke about old horses being dog food is not just idle banter. All I am hearing from the "slavery" side are scathing pseudo-intellectual arguments that only make sense from a real world liberal perspective. I am not hearing anything that would be convincing to somebody on Eberron. You can show a typical person how much of a nice beast the pretty horsey is. But barring strict magical controls are fire elemental is unlikely to show any more niceties to a crowd of onlookers other than try to burn them. It's also worth noting that in D&D (including Eberron) that elementals don't just keep to their own planes minding their own business. They have been on monster encounter charts for the Prime planes for a reason. They frequently appear in places where planar connections form. For example, when Fernia is coterminus fire elementals are likely to be encountered near any source of intense heat. Indeed, that's probably how ancient humanoids first discovered their existence. In all likelihood, the elementals were probably (rightly) linked to events like forest fires and such, and attacks on humanoids. So again, other than heaping disdain on people (never a good way to win allies to your cause) you haven't put forward an argument that would make sense to a citizen of Khorvaire as to why they should give up things like airships, elemental galleons and the Lightning Rail just to grant freedom to these living puffs of wind, water, rock or flame.
DoveArrow 07-04-05, 02:20 PM	So again, other than heaping disdain on people (never a good way to win allies to your cause) you haven't put forward an argument that would make sense to a citizen of Khorvaire as to why they should give up things like airships, elemental galleons and the Lightning Rail just to grant freedom to these living puffs of wind, water, rock or flame. Except that this is exactly how protest groups work today. Abortion clinics are called baby killers by pro life activists, christian activists are called fundies by detractors, and meanwhile, our political parties have all kinds of choice phrases for each other (those liberal, conservative, right wing, commie...). My personal feeling is that if there are protest groups in Eberron (and I'm sure there will be after this thread) the protestors will be heaping a lot of disdain on those whom they consider to be in favor of extraplanar enslavement. Meanwhile, the more extreme protest groups will be doing things like sabotaging the elemental galleons, attacking adventurers wearing elemental bound armor, and bombing the gnome workshops who are associated with creating elemental bound items in Zilargo. To protest is to be outraged, and you can't be outraged without disdain. So to me, it makes sense that they should be disdainful. It's all part of protesting.
Psionycx 07-04-05, 02:32 PM	Very true. And people who commit arson on abortion clinics are called "criminals". So the heart of the question is how one convinces the general population that people that go around breaking open Lightning Rail engines to release the elementals within are not criminals and enemies of society. After all, the Ashbound oppose the use of arcane and divine (clerical) magic. But I don't see any nation on Khorvaire taking any steps to ban the use of such magic. The vast majority of people probably think that the Ashbound are crazed wilderness hermits that have eaten a few too many hallucinogenic berries. And, they further argue, what proof do the Ashbound have of the inherent "wrongess" of arcane and clerical magic? Such powers are used for the good of society every single day. As are domesticated animals and bound elementals. So while you could have a campaign based around freeing bound elementals, it would be one of those "criminal" campaigns where you're on the run from the authorities all the time.
happymoocow 07-04-05, 05:57 PM	Not necessarily. Don't have to be ashbound or any crazy sect. If all you do is merely free elementals you'll be wanted by the sects that control elementals. The authorities might be pawned by them. Screw the authorities when you're level 9 they're usually push overs... just don't stick around long enough for bigger fish.
Hellcow 07-04-05, 06:04 PM	Hellcow has stated repeatedly that once the elemental is on Khorvaire, keeping it bound is one of the kindest things you can do for it. The KINDEST thing you can do is send it home, right? Absolutely. Note that what I typically said was that the crime was bringing it to Eberron inthe first place. The issue is that freeing it is not necessarily a kind act unless YOU can send it home.
Hellcow 07-04-05, 06:10 PM	Not necessarily. Don't have to be ashbound or any crazy sect. If all you do is merely free elementals you'll be wanted by the sects that control elementals. Not at all. You'll be wanted by the nations that make use of elemental transit - which is to say, all of the Five Nations - and also by those people you endanger by releasing the elemental. Again, unless you can get the elemental home, you're unleashing a dangerous force on an innocent population. I agree with Dreaming Duck: it's like blowing up power plants to protest nuclear power. You're showingthe danger inherent in the system - but you're doing it by intentionally endangering innocents.
Edymnion 07-04-05, 06:15 PM	Yup, to put it bluntly (and not having anything to do with real world politics), anyone running around freeing elementals is a terrorist. Literally. They are using destructive methods to insight fear in order to bring about the social change that they deem is proper. As is the case in Eberron, you can do the right thing, but go about it in a totally incorrect way. Petitioning for a reduction and gradual phaseout of elemental power because you think its wrong is one thing. Running around blowing stuff up to try and FORCE a change is another.
happymoocow 07-04-05, 06:16 PM	Cool so this is best for a chaotic nuetral campaign. Wanted by all five nations and alot of sects. Sounds fun. Just need good abjuration and illusion magic against scrying. Sword and fireball campaign.
Psionycx 07-04-05, 06:45 PM	Not necessarily. Don't have to be ashbound or any crazy sect. If all you do is merely free elementals you'll be wanted by the sects that control elementals. The authorities might be pawned by them. Screw the authorities when you're level 9 they're usually push overs... just don't stick around long enough for bigger fish. The "bigger fish" in this case being the dragonmarked houses, the rest of the merchant class as well as the ruling class of most of the continent. Public sympathy will be hard to come by. Remember, before the advent of the Lightning Rail, most people lived a very Medieval way of life that allowed for relatively little travel. It would have been too costly for most commoners to journey far from their homes. Elemental-powered mass transit has changed all of that and stimulated trade and travel across Khorvaire. Putting a stop to that would be the functional equivalent of blowing up airliners. Almost nobody would thank you for and most people, even Good-aligned ones, would see you as a crazed anarchist out to tear apart civilization. Some, like the Church of the Silver Flame, would wonder why, in a world threatened by things like Order of the Emerald Claw and the Blood of Vol, someone claiming to be dedicated to good is running around pouring their energies into "liberating" living bonfires. So it would be an outlaw campaign, where most people are enemies and only some radicals like the Ashbound would be allies. Interestingly, you could work conspiracy into this. The Dreaming Dark, for example, might support this endeavor as a way to sow chaos on Khorvaire and damage the socio-economic stability of it's nations.
taski 07-04-05, 07:24 PM	According to the Galifar Code, sentience is not enough to gain rights. Undead, even sentient ones, have no rights at all! Anybody can do anything to an undead "person" without legal repercussion -- slavery, torture, even murder in the streets! This is entirely unjust and must be changed! If you think sentience is all one needs to have rights, come join us! Join the Emerald Claw!
DoveArrow 07-05-05, 02:53 AM	So the heart of the question is how one convinces the general population that people that go around breaking open Lightning Rail engines to release the elementals within are not criminals and enemies of society. I don't think that's the idea at all. The idea of terrorism is not to make people see your way, but to make them afraid of doing whatever it is that you don't want them to do. Think about it. If the Houses Orien and Lyrandar fold because the people of Khorvaire are afraid to use elemental bound vessels due to your terrorist activities, then the war is won. If a few innocent lives are lost in the process, well that's to be expected. In war, the only thing that matters is victory; everything else is secondary.
PsionicMonk 07-05-05, 05:34 AM	Not at all. You'll be wanted by the nations that make use of elemental transit - which is to say, all of the Five Nations - and also by those people you endanger by releasing the elemental. Again, unless you can get the elemental home, you're unleashing a dangerous force on an innocent population. I agree with Dreaming Duck: it's like blowing up power plants to protest nuclear power. You're showingthe danger inherent in the system - but you're doing it by intentionally endangering innocents. I think this is the best analogy. I just thought, what about the deep heat pits of Sharn? I mean I would think that would be a nice refuge for fire elementals, at least until someone can find a way to send them home. I think water elementals would be happy in Eberron mainly because of the oceans. Air elementals wouldn't mind cuase of well air :P , Earth Elementals wouldnt mind so much cuase there is soo much earth.... Lighting Elementals... they may be able to find a place to stay, Maybe the lighting could be in metal or something. Plus who is to say the elemental isnt happy? I mean, a fire elemental gets to burn (the ring) the lighting elemental gets to zot! things, the earth elemental gets to roll around in the dirt, water elemental gets to go and live in the ocean, apart of the ship, the air elementals get to either fly with airships, or on the open ocean, and use there powers. I think a bond elemental is like a person who got completely plastered(drunk) and drove himself home on a motorcycle, and didnt remember the trip home. You as a person used your balancing ablites, your stoping distance ablites, 'the path to home' ablites, its just you dont remember useing them. Maybe with the binding process, you are making it magicly 'Drunk' to where you are able to use it with some persastion.
Psionycx 07-05-05, 09:43 PM	I don't think that's the idea at all. The idea of terrorism is not to make people see your way, but to make them afraid of doing whatever it is that you don't want them to do. Think about it. If the Houses Orien and Lyrandar fold because the people of Khorvaire are afraid to use elemental bound vessels due to your terrorist activities, then the war is won. If a few innocent lives are lost in the process, well that's to be expected. In war, the only thing that matters is victory; everything else is secondary. So who gets to be George W. Bush then? King Boranel or King Kaius? Seriously, the flip side to that is that terrorism is not a Good act, and noble intentions don't justify evil deeds (at least according to the Book of Exalted Deeds)). Regardless, people are going to consider anyone attacking Khorvaire's elemental infrastructure to be the very worst sort of criminals, especially if they kill humanoids for the benefit of elementals. Certainly some groups like Asbound or the Dreaming Dark may applaud and support the character's actions, albeit for different reasons. Everyone else, governments, dragonmarked houses (in particular Cannith, Lyrander and Orien), merchantile interests and even a lot of the common population are going to see the characters as evil. It will be sort of a villain campaign.
happymoocow 07-06-05, 07:43 AM	Actually the Book of Exalted deeds talks about lawfull good characters. A chaotic good character knows that people's views and expectations are often misguided. In this case the people's views and expectations are misguided by the benefits of slavery. If this chaotic good character that views elemental slavery as an evil act he will free elementals and definently avoid casualties. I would definently say that you are chaotic good if you avoid casualties at all costs while trying to free elementals. I mean this is what chaotic good often does ie. break the law to get the bad guy or in this case free the innocent. Chaotic nuetral if you don't care about the casualties but want to free elementals. Chaotic evil if you do it to kill people. ~ Oh and as a chaotic good character freeing elementals you wouldn't trust the Ashbound. The big problem with freeing elementals is that you'll be fighting every single alignment on a constant basis regardless of wether you are chaotic good or chaotic evil. CG vs CG you might see a mirror match up... the good on good crimes.
The Dreaming Duck 07-06-05, 08:38 AM	I would definently say that you are chaotic good if you avoid casualties at all costs while trying to free elementals. I think the big question is whether this is, itself, an oxymoron. Unless you possess the capability to send the elemental home, the very act of freeing the elemental is endangering non-elementals (and an act of cruelity to the elemental itself). By Hellcow's description, the trapped elemental is only vaguely aware it is trapped; the freed elemental is painfully aware that it has been torn from its home, and takes this out on any creatures it can find. Essentially it's like letting a very dangerous wild animal free from the zoo in a big city. The city isn't its home, it's scared and confused there, and it's going to attack people that cross its path. How does this help anyone involved? If you can send it home, of course, that's an entirely different story. Otherwise, the way to avoid casualties would be not to free elementals at all, but to pursue other methods of convincing the houses and gnomes to stop the practice to begin with. Congratulations, you succeeded in NOT understanding what I said. Well, you did the same, so we can share the prize. :)
Edymnion 07-06-05, 04:07 PM	Essentially it's like letting a very dangerous wild animal free from the zoo in a big city. The city isn't its home, it's scared and confused there, and it's going to attack people that cross its path.Which is quite possibly the best damned analogy in this entire thread, good job DD! Its exactly like animals in a zoo. While they may be in captivity, at least they are fed, cared for, and made as comfortable as possible. Even if you don't agree with keeping the animals in a zoo, its insane to think that its BETTER to have lions and elephants wandering around downtown New York. If you don't have the resources to tranq the animal, fly it back to it's native environment, and release it, you are doing a greater evil by dropping it in a hostile environment of the concrete jungle than you are by leaving it in captivity. Releasing an Elemental and leaving it in Khorvaire just means it is going to be in pain (its gotta be frelling cold in Khovaire to a Fire Elemental), its going to be confused, and in all likelyhood, it is going to die, violently, a short time later. Just like a lion loose in New York. Its not going to understand whats going on, and unless a specially trained corps with wild animal capturing gear comes to recapture it, the animal is likely going to be shot and killed. Just like, unless a special group comes to rebind the elemental, it is going to be killed (probably by the PCs). So, is binding elementals evil? Possibly. Is releasing the elementals evil? Most definately, unless you have a way to send them home. If you're just releasing them, you are furthering your own goals without concern for the safety or wellbeing of those around you (the elementals you are releasing), which makes you Evil.
DoveArrow 07-07-05, 10:31 AM	Certainly some groups like Asbound or the Dreaming Dark may applaud and support the character's actions, albeit for different reasons. Everyone else, governments, dragonmarked houses (in particular Cannith, Lyrander and Orien), merchantile interests and even a lot of the common population are going to see the characters as evil. But again, it doesn't matter how they're viewed. It's all about creating an atmosphere of terror. If people are afraid to use elemental vessels because of your terrorist activities, then you've achieved your goal. The powers that be may hate you for it, in fact the citizens of Khorvaire may hate you as well, but it doesn't matter what they think. What matters is if you achieve your goal of stopping the use of elemental bound vessels. It will be sort of a villain campaign. Naw, just make the terrorists the villains. :)
Gurv 07-07-05, 11:05 AM	If terrorist activities are being called for, then the least destructive method would be to focus the attacks on the facilities where the binding is done in the first place. Although targeting the innocent end-users to make them fearful of the product might work, it is pretty evil. It could almost be justified, however, to attack and destroy those who are commiting the crime, and have an understanding of what they are doing in the first place. Strike against the gnomes and artificers who are binding the elementals. If you stop it before it happens, you don't have to worry about elementals running amok or getting them back to their homes. The guilty are punished, the oblivious remain unharmed, and if you do it right, then much of the binding equipment will be destroyed and no one will dare do it again.
Siran Dunmorgan 07-07-05, 11:27 AM	If you do it right, then much of the binding equipment will be destroyed and no one will dare do it again. Except, of course, those drow clans of Xen'drik who've build their entire culure around binding elementals. Ahh, progress! No stopping it… —Siran Dunmorgan
DoveArrow 07-07-05, 11:56 AM	Except, of course, those drow clans of Xen'drik who've build their entire culure around binding elementals. Ahh, progress! No stopping it… —Siran Dunmorgan Drow? Those backwater savages? Their culture is far too primitive to make elemental bound items. Probably just a rumor you heard from one of those sailors telling tall stories in the pub. :P
DoveArrow 07-07-05, 12:07 PM	Strike against the gnomes and artificers who are binding the elementals. If you stop it before it happens, you don't have to worry about elementals running amok or getting them back to their homes. The guilty are punished, the oblivious remain unharmed, and if you do it right, then much of the binding equipment will be destroyed and no one will dare do it again. Now you're getting it. And if that doesn't work, then start sabotaging both the gnomes and the businesses that support them. P.S. I just want you all to know that Gurv is my favorite student. :)
DoveArrow 07-07-05, 12:09 PM	its insane to think that its BETTER to have lions and elephants wandering around downtown New York. Someone's been watching 12 Monkeys recently.
Gurv 07-07-05, 12:20 PM	P.S. I just want you all to know that Gurv is my favorite student. :) I still don't think that anyone would actually care enough for any of this to happen. I'm in the "elementals are too alien for people to sympathize with them/most likely they don't even have human-like emotions" camp.
DoveArrow 07-07-05, 12:36 PM	I still don't think that anyone would actually care enough for any of this to happen. I'm in the "elementals are too alien for people to sympathize with them/most likely they don't even have human-like emotions" camp. I don't know. While they might not care about the elementals, the Ashbound Rangers might go on a kind of crusade against the houses for dabbling in arcane magic. So it's at least possible.