Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Restless 12-22-04, 08:27 PM	Okay, I know that it's a no no, but I'm preparing an adventure into Argonesson. due to the relativly small amount of info avaliable in the ECS, I was curious about what your opinions on the Draconic Continent are. Are the Dragons primarly like those in other settings, or can we expect to see a giant Dragon metropolis. Argonnessen is the only place, mostly, I'd expect to find a Half-Dragon in Khorvaire. There is mention of the Great Barrier. What exactly is that? Anyway, I pretty much have the adventure set up, but I would appreicate some help.
thomps1d 12-22-04, 09:21 PM	I wouldn't expect the dragons in Argonnessen to be like the dragons in other campaign worlds, but I also wouldn't expect them to gather in large metropolises, either. I personally picture massive, ancient, incredibly powerful beasts locked away in massive cave complexes studying the Prophecy. Smaller and younger dragons, by my best reckoning, would likely spend their time in disguise amongst the common races all over the world, taking in the Prophecy firsthand. As far as the Great Barrier, I imagine it's more of a figurative barrier than an actual physical locale. Maybe a sporadic line of massive dragoneque totem poles surrounded by the sun-bleached skulls of humanoid creatures which stretches down the length of Totem Beach. Half-dragons are your call as a DM, but personally, I'm tending to avoid them. Dragons are, on the whole, a race that seems pretty intent on keeping themselves separate from the rest of the world. As such, half-dragons would likely be viewed as an abomination and destined to be destroyed, particularly on the sanctuary of Argonnesson.
Romulus LoneWolf 12-22-04, 10:50 PM	Best way I can think of for using the Dragons is to make them Eberron's version of The Vorlons: the mighty elder race nobody knows much about, who've been secretly manipulating things from behind the scenes for centuries...
Gurv 12-22-04, 11:46 PM	I don't see cities, at least not the way we build them. Dragons don't need them the way we do. Dragons possess everything that one could wish for in a single being: great physical strength, superhuman intelligence, the power of flight, natural mastery of magic, nearly infinite lifespan, the list goes on and on. Most of the needs we have are caused by our lacking in these areas. Also, building things to 'dragon scale' has another issue: dragons vary in size by as much as the rules allow for! So no structure is perfect for all dragons. Meeting places would accommodate as many sizes as possible, but that would be the exception, not the rule. The magic would be mind-blowing. Not only are they all born sorcerers, but with their life spans, there is little knowledge being lost in the cracks between generations. Add to that the fact that there is no evidence that dragons have ever suffered from a 'fall of civilization' as everyone from the giants to the elves to the goblins have dealt with. As any adventurer knows, civilization falling is a good way to lose a lot of magical power and knowledge. Dragons are smart. So smart, that there are no DMs who are smart enough to role play them. But what can be done is to emulate them. So many smart beings, over the course of so much time, are not going to be fooled. By ANYTHING. There really shouldn’t be any way past their defenses that they haven't thought of, only what they intentionally left. No place to hide that they don't know about. On top of that, no spell or magical effect or psionics that they are unfamiliar with. As a whole, they know pretty much everything, and certainly anything that a 30-year old guy with a 16 Int knows about. Combine this with the fact that the hobby of interest is studying the Prophecy. Now you have all-knowing dragons who have grown bored with the world as it is, so they try to figure out the future. Answer the questions about the meaning of life, and the sound of one hand clapping, and why every fricking thing almost adds up to 13. Dragons do not need trade roads, so none of those either. Vast sections of wilderness. Filled with things that dragons find interesting. Like dire animals. And magical beasts. As long as it is no threat to a dragon, and provides some information or amusement, it could be somewhere. I expect that Argonnessen has some serious divided climates, considering the traditional preferences. These variances are likely produced by magic, and if you are doing something by magic, you might as well go all the way and go beyond what is possible by nature. Red dragons like heat, so there could be some areas where the air is as hot as lava. Reverse for the white dragons. At the least, they would use control weather to make things consistently the way they like them. Personally, I would make the place unsurvivable for anyone under 10th level. And even then it would be a hit-and-run sort of thing. Not somewhere they'd stay for a campaign.
Marshall Stone 12-23-04, 12:56 AM	Anyway, I pretty much have the adventure set up, but I would appreicate some help. Really, I'm kinda of curious, could you post what you have set up? Unless it'll spoil it for your players of course. I thought of gaming NEAR Argonnessen, involving the Seren tribes, but not actually on the continent itself. You know you do have an advantage in that not much is written about Argonnessen. You can make it ANY Way you like. You want Half-Dragons? Poof, there are Half-Dragons! You want a secret order of Draco-liches? Done. You want the centaur-like Dragon race from the Warcraft RPG? Go for it. I can see room for all kinds of campaigns. From political intrique amongst the dragon court/clans, to edge-of-you-seat death-defying stunts. Sounds like if handled right it could be loads of fun.
polt 12-23-04, 08:07 AM	I don't think your pc's are going to find any treasures on Argonessen, not anything they can use.
Ayers 12-23-04, 08:41 AM	You want Half-Dragons? Poof, there are Half-Dragons! You want a secret order of Draco-liches? Hmm... That may not be the best idea. Last time the elves and dragons created a half-breed House Vol was slaughtered, and Vol became a Lich. So really, that may not be the best idea to create anther half-dragon. Maybe if Vol or some other evil power was creating Draco-liches or Half-dragons as her power and influence slowly expands and grows, she could have her own personal, and pretty much perfect army.
Romulus LoneWolf 12-23-04, 11:57 AM	I could see Half-Dragons existing, but less as Draconic half-breeds and more as a "magically created lesser servitor race" trained to serve the dragons as agents in the outside world. Of course, they'd likely be trained as wizards and taught Alter Self, or given items to conceal their true nature from the lesser races, however.
Gurv 12-23-04, 12:39 PM	There are enough threads about Vol, and the fact that she is a half-dragon, that we don't have to go into detail about it again here. Whatever the reason, dragons seem to have issue with the creation of half-dragons. Perhaps they are a threat to the Prophecy, perhaps not. But the dragons don't like them much. Any that exist should be either completely secret, hunted mercilessly, or watched constantly. Therefore, any half-dragon is special. No cities of them. Something that seems to remain consistent in Eberron is that dragons are contemplative, sedentary beings. They spend their time studying and wondering about the mysteries of the multiverse. To do these things, they need a place to meditate. Not unlike those on other worlds, the dragons of Eberron likely build huge libraries (although perhaps more exotic that paper-and-ink), laboratories for discovering magic, and for investigating Prophecy. But because they are not the 'monsters' that they are elsewhere, these places can be in the open instead of hidden in dungeons, caves, and castles. Dragons of Eberron seem to get along with one another better than they do elsewhere. They share a continent. They have many of the same goals. And without alignments to divide them, they are as free as humans are to deal with others of their type. I imagine the different species treat each other the way the different humanoid races would, if they were wiser and more intelligent. Treasure seems like too much of a staple of dragon kind to remove. They should still have tons of it. Perhaps collecting gold and jewels is an ancient tradition. Or maybe is ties into the Prophecy...something proclaiming that dragons are ruled by the one with the most material wealth. A plutocracy (rule by wealth) would be interesting. It would tie the dragons together strongly, because status could be easily measured by material things; no one would need to wonder who was more in charge. But it is also flexible, since money can be earned, found, stolen, etc. Instead of our economical system, two dragons entering into a bargain might agree on a sum owed should one of them break the deal. A system where you don't earn money for what you do, but for what others fail to do...hmm.
ESP 12-23-04, 01:38 PM	Not unlike those on other worlds, the dragons of Eberron likely build huge libraries (although perhaps more exotic than paper-and-ink), laboratories for discovering magic, and for investigating Prophecy. Yeah, like vast chambers filled with Eberron shards used to store knowledge and bits of the prophecy. Kind of a play on the Wizard's Spellshard (pg 122 ECS) or Aureon's Spellshard (pg 265 ECS) ideas. Not unreasonable to think dragons would have taken the idea beyond just spellbooks and created whole libraries of dragonshards with some strange draconic dewey decimal system to keep it all organized.
Restless 12-23-04, 06:58 PM	Okay, all of this is awesome. I'm going to use a bunch of it, especially the bit Gurv wrote about the climates. As for my game, none of my PCs read this, so here it goes. Take into coinsideration that I am bending the rules a bit, using a very nontypical NPC and playing with a rather nontypical PC, and also a fairly new DM. This adventure is mostly one for character development and allowing a PC (A Valenar named Vael) to reach a prestige class. See he wanted to play a Dragoon, so not wanting to spoil his cool idea, I wrote him a PrC and made the requirement that he study under a Dragon or an 8th level Dragoon. Since in my game all the Dragoons(To his knowledge) have been wiped out, he has to goto Argonesson. His RP reason for this is that his Ancestor (named Veron) left his tribe to seek an alligence with the dragons. After multiple near life experiences, he found one, a female silver dragon, willing to listen to him. Being a observer of the Prophecy, she helped him under the assumption she was bound by fate. That and she hated the Elf/Dragon fued. She taught him the way of the Dragoon, so he might rise to a greater power in Areneal(sp?) and help to stop the war. Yes, we know this is foolish, but she believed fate was on her side. She also fell in love with his Veron during the years they trained togather. Not typical, I know, and bore his child. (A half-dragon/half-elf, I'm assuming a half-dragon/half-elf would live a long time, btw.) Well, Veron left, went home, and eventually died, and never rose to power. Ok, now to Vael who wants to follow in Veron's footsteps and train with the same Dragon (She was very young, now she's Ancient), and figure out why his honorable ancestor would leave his people to train with a dragon. Oh, and the illigitmate dragon child of Veron and the dragon was outcast to Seren and rose to be a cheif of one of the tribes. So, now for the adventure itself. The Silver Dragon, still up to her old tricks, has been studying the prophecy and spying on Veron's descendents. She knows of Vael's desires but believes (Probably rightfully)that he will never accomplish this task which holds importance to the prophecy. So, she decides to give him a nudge and she intends to use her own powers to help him survive. She appears to him and his friends in Sharn as a wealthy benefactor who has learned somehow (The PCs have a good deal of reknown) of Vael's wish to travel to Argonnesson. Well, coinviently the 'benefactor' requires something, I haven't decided what yet, that the a certain Silver Dragon could most likely supply. So he proposes that Vael kill two birds with wone quest, so to speak. The Silver Dragon believes that it is imperative that Vael never learn of the truth about the 'benefactor' (Damn manipulitive Dragons.) Well, eventually they get to Seren, and encounter the tribe run by the Half-dragon. Before they meet her, they must coinvince the Seren's not to kill them and earn the right to meet the Cheif. When they finally do, they have to battle the half-dragon cheif. After that, she agrees to guide them to the Silver Dragon Vael seeks. Note: The only way any of this happens is that The Silver Dragon told the Half Dragon to allow it to, it's it a part of the prophecy and must be fulfilled. However, the tests were still life and death, it's just in my opinion a Seren would die before letting a member of the lesser races onto Argonnesson. So maybe they were pulling punches a bit. The half-dragon guides them through the wilderness to the silver dragon. This has lots of cool, dangerous scenes, with lots of close calls. Again, the only way this is even possible, is that The Silver Dragon, one of the most powerful Dragons in Argonnesson is watching and helping. They find her lair, meet her and spend a good deal of time studying. this is going to be mostly RP and will most likly only take up a half to a full game session, seeing that similar to traveling, it will get boring after a while. The Silver Dragon is studying the prophecy all the time and trying to understand her place in it all. Despite all of her manipulating and such, she is very unclear on the entire thing. When they all are getting ready to leave her ultimate and unknowing role becomes clear to her, the night before their departure. The next morning she is noticably distracted. As the Half-Dragon prepares to guide them back, the lair it attacked by a different angry dragon, adn his servants, outraged that the silver dragon allowed the lesser races to step foot in Argonnesson. A battle, and chase ensues, with the Silver Dragon holding off the other Dragon (I think he's going to be Black). They escape, amazingly, and eventually find their way back to the Seren Tribe, with the Half-dragon. They depart and go back to Sharn, unknowing that the Silver Dragon has dies and the Half-dragon will later be killed due to her sins, as well. When they goto give the seemingly useless trinket to the 'benefactor', they discover he is not there. (The Silver Dragon is dead.) The item's actual porpose becomes clear when it turns out to be of critical importance in a future adventure, one hopefully of epic preportions. And so that was is the PCs and the Silver Dragon's roll in the Prophecy, all allong the Silver Dragon was supposed to give the PCs the item (One she thought she'd recover) so the PCs will be able to fulfill their ultimate roll in the prophecy later on. Tada! Oh, and the only reason the PCs are not killed by the Black Dragon is that he senses/discovers that they are untimatly not just average adventurers and will beof some importance, so he, for the time being, observes them closly.
Romulus LoneWolf 12-23-04, 07:16 PM	From what I read about the whole Vol thing, the reason there was such a big huff about it was that Elves and Dragons have been in conflicts for centuries before her birth. It wasn't the fact she was a Half-Dragon. It was that she was Half-Dragon, Half-Elf. I can see other Dragons, either more open-minded ones, or more manipulative ones, actively creating Half-Dragon agents to work in Khorvaire for them.. In fact, I think I'll use some if I make an Eberron campaign...
PoeticJustice 12-23-04, 07:38 PM	If my players ever find the inclination to go to Argonessen, they'll find a small empire on the far east side of the continent that is suspiciously similar to Rokugan, the Oriental Adventures campaign setting. Sans Nezumi, Kokorobukuro and a few other elements. Why is a human civilization on the forbidden continent? What is their relationship to the dragons? To the Serens? To the Propehcy? I figure it'd make a great Epic-level campaign
El Salvador 12-23-04, 10:20 PM	I'm running my own eberon game, and the pc's are at 12th level. As part of an ongoing theme, they are chasing a powerful psion around eberron, trying to recover a talisman that he tricked them into retrieving for him. (It was my first try at a recurring villan, and it went amazingly well. The players are itching to kill him in many gruesome ways not fit for the boards, in character and out of character :D ) In any case, the talisman is supposed to be the key to opening up the depths of kyber, freeing everything that is trapped inside. Their goal is to stop the psion, and destroy the talisman. At this point, they have followed the psion into Aronessen, and that was when we last played. I won't bother you with the minor details, but my take on Argonessen is a lot like what most people have been saying in these boards. When dragons first confronted the pc's, they came as very tall, regal looking elves and humans dressed in long, ancient looking robes, and with very powerful and wise auras. As of now, I intend to keep the continent mostly in the dark for the PC's: the dragons already know about their quest, and due to the prophecy, will send them to a new location soon, while keeping them from seeing much of the continent. If my players want to, after the campaign is done, they'll be at such a high level, and in such high regards with dragon-kind, they would be able to explore Argonessen unhindered. In keeping with the flair of Eberron, I'm making the dragons be very reserved and regal looking, and of course, mysterious. Just because I think it would be really cool, I'm going to make there be great cities in Argonessen, with amazing and alien (not sci-fi, just not normal) architecture. Kind of like that demon city in the wastes. Just to throw a question out there: I decided as a DM that I would give all dragons access to the polymorph ability, simply to make it so that you would be able to find any type of dragon in human guise. It would not upset combat ballance, because Eberron dragons don't fight on any terms but their own, and those always include the use of their true forms. Does this seem like an acceptable house rule, or am I missing something important? Wow... That was an amazing example of a rambling ramble of rambleness. :rolleyes:
darkthought 12-23-04, 10:58 PM	From what I read about the whole Vol thing, the reason there was such a big huff about it was that Elves and Dragons have been in conflicts for centuries before her birth. It wasn't the fact she was a Half-Dragon. It was that she was Half-Dragon, Half-Elf. I can see other Dragons, either more open-minded ones, or more manipulative ones, actively creating Half-Dragon agents to work in Khorvaire for them.. In fact, I think I'll use some if I make an Eberron campaign... If I remember what Keith Baker said, it was partially that, and a large amount of Half-Dragon Elf with the Dragonmark of Death. Only elves are supposed to carry the Mark of Death, and Vol has it as a half-dragon elf. As for other half dragons, I'd see them as top dogs in the seren tribes. The living link to their patron/god dragon. Personally, I have a feeling that it was also political on the elves side... I think the Undying Court was rising in power, and another form of immortal on thier little island would have been a threat to their godhood.
Marshall Stone 12-24-04, 02:06 AM	[QUOTE=El Salvador] Does this seem like an acceptable house rule, or am I missing something important?QUOTE] Actually I House Ruled that all dragons could polymorph since 2nd edition. Not a problem at all. And I like how you'd present dragons as polymorphed Regal, Awe-Inspiring Auraed Elves/Humans. RESTLESS, question for ya: How do you plan on presenting the continent of Argonessen to the PC's; or at least the part they see? Jungle? Forest? Tundra? And how do you plan on presenting the Silver dragon's lair? I'm assuming it's not just a cave or something, but I have trouble picturing a humanoid-type/like palace dwelling either. For some reason I picture a big dome, with pedestals all about that dragons can alight upon, no stairs, very artisitc... Anyways just wondering how you plan on doing it?
Restless 12-24-04, 06:30 PM	So far, before Gruv's imput, I had invisioned it as a Magical Jungle/Forest. I want it to be realistic, but also fantastic. Think Princess Mononoke style, I think there will be things there that you can't find else where. It dosen't even have to be important...the PCs coming apon a Draconic 'Art Project' such as a waterfall that flows backwards, would be cool. As for their lairs, I think the lairs in the Draconomicon are a mite mundane, but I am going to use them as a stepping stone. I also see personal a personal library/observatory, due to their fasicnation with the prophecy. By no means do I think the entire continent of Argonnesson would be a Forest, but that's what I'm going to show. Since Silver Dragons are cold, They are going to start in a forest and work their way to a set of mountains. The Dragon's lair is in the top of the mountains.
MarkB 12-24-04, 06:51 PM	As far as Vol goes, I have a particular little picture of what was most offensive to the dragons, though it's just my own theory. My idea is that they consider themselves to be standing apart from the Prophecy, studying it intently but dispassionately in all its forms in order to seek its guidance, but not directly interfering (this isn't the only viewpoint, or else the Chamber wouldn't exist and the dragons who aided House Vol in the project would not have done so, but it's the majority view.) By creating a crossbreed of dragons that bore Dragonmarks, House Vol had done something abhorrent to the majority of dragons - directly linked them to the Prophecy in the form of Vol's Dragonmarks. This was an intolerable situation - if dragons bore Dragonmarks, how could they possibly maintain their objectivity in studying them, and thus the Prophecy? Thus, they wiped out House Vol and any record of the methods used to meld Elf and Dragon.