Artificer item creation question! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artificer item creation question! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
technodemon
03-07-05, 02:21 PM In the Eberron Errat it says that items created by Artificers are neither Arcane nor Dinvine, does it mean that items like scrolls, wands, rods and staves can not be used by any other spellcasters but the artificer himself? Or does it by creature hit by these items can not be effect cause of the earlier statement? I am bit confused still by this statement.
Davy Jones' Locker
03-07-05, 02:23 PM In the Eberron Errat it says that items created by Artificers are neither Arcane nor Dinvine, does it mean that items like scrolls, wands, rods and staves can not be used by any other spellcasters but the artificer himself? Or does it by creature hit by these items can not be effect cause of the earlier statement? I am bit confused still by this statement.

Use of Artificer scrolls require a UMD check, regardless of who is using them. Not sure about other items.
This also means that they are not subject to arcane spell failure %.

I'm a little confused about the wording of your last question.

If you have any further questions, you might want to take a look at this thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373293).
Dragom
03-07-05, 02:25 PM I think it means that scrolls cannot be used by other casters. Wands and staves still contain spells that may (or may not be) on another casters list and so may be usable.
Redbeard_Gamer
03-07-05, 05:35 PM It doesn't make sense that an artificer's scrolls are useable only by other artificers. That would effectively be creating a third class of magic. My interpretation would be that as the magic is neither arcane nor divine, it is accessible by both. This is in line with the artificer being a support-type class. Of course, if it's not part of your spell list you should still need a UMD check.

Here's the thought process. There's Magic. Arcane and Divine are just ways of accessing it. Since Artificers work with it in a material manner, they don't use those paths. Since the item - the magical inscription of the scroll - is already endowed with magic, anyone with a magical aptitude should have to use it.
MarkB
03-07-05, 05:48 PM After that errata came out, there were a lot of discussions on this subject, and Keith Baker suggested a house-rule that Artificer scrolls could be used by any caster with the spell on their spell list as though it were an ordinary arcane or divine spell, but only for the purposes of casting the spell - wizards would not be able to scribe the spell.

Since the change seems to have been made in order to prevent artificers from being an infinitely flexible source of new spells for wizards to scribe, this houserule is a sensible compromise - for one thing, it eliminates the errata'd version's greatest problem, the fact that a 1st-level NPC artificer would not be able to craft any saleable items - but it is, despite the source, only a houserule. Officially, the only way to use an artificer scroll is via UMD.
technodemon
03-07-05, 06:37 PM I understand about the scrolls but what about wands, rods (not sure on this) and staves? These are very different from scrolls and the confusion on the errata.
Davy Jones' Locker
03-07-05, 06:43 PM According to the errata,
"Magic Items created by an Artificer are considered neither arcane nor divine."

So technically/officially by the RAW(rules as written), they all require UMD checks.

Now, if you want to use the house rule suggested above, then that is your perogative.
Crimsonsun
03-07-05, 08:04 PM I kinda always figured it like this for scrolls

Arcane made scroll (Wiz/Sorc/etc) - Proper forumula, markings, rituals, diagrams, etc. A magical version of a schematic

Divine made scroll (druid/cleric/etc) - Words of prayers to a diety or force of nature. Sermon like

Artificer made scroll - Scribbles and random babble that could ONLY make sense to another artificer or soemone trained in random magic "poking". Magical shorthand?
Alextroy
03-07-05, 09:15 PM I understand about the scrolls but what about wands, rods (not sure on this) and staves? These are very different from scrolls and the confusion on the errata.

Scrolls are Spell Completion items and must match the type of magic (Arcane or Divine) the character cast to be usable. Therefore, a typeless scroll created by an Artificer cannot be used by either Arcane or Divine casters.

Wands and Staffs are Spell Trigger items and therefore can be used by anyone with the spell in question on their Class Spell list.

Rods are generally Use Activated or Command Word items and can be used by any character that meets the requirements of the rod in question.

Alextroy
Gunrock
03-07-05, 09:22 PM Scrolls are Spell Completion items and must match the type of magic (Arcane or Divine) the character cast to be usable. Therefore, a typeless scroll created by an Artificer cannot be used by either Arcane or Divine casters.
They should be useable with a successful Use Magic Device check. The RAW make any spell complettion item useable witha successful UMD check. Since that is cross-class for all casters, and most don't put points in it anyway, they won't be able to try (trained only) and they will probably fail if they can. Still, it means Artificers aren't totally uselesss when they only have scrolls handy and get knocked out.
Alextroy
03-07-05, 09:35 PM They should be useable with a successful Use Magic Device check. The RAW make any spell complettion item useable witha successful UMD check. Since that is cross-class for all casters, and most don't put points in it anyway, they won't be able to try (trained only) and they will probably fail if they can. Still, it means Artificers aren't totally uselesss when they only have scrolls handy and get knocked out.

That goes without saying, since that is the point of Use Magic Device ;)

It is also how Artificers have to use the scrolls they make themselves.

Alextroy
Dragom
03-08-05, 06:19 PM You forget... Bards are full casters and have UMD. And spellcraft and Decifer script that produce UMD synergies to trying to use scrolls.

So at 2nd level:
UMD = 5 ranks + Cha + 4 synergy

So remember... Theres a good Bard+Artificer support rank party thing. Almost as good as the Wizard+Cleric mix.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
technodemon 03-07-05, 02:21 PM	In the Eberron Errat it says that items created by Artificers are neither Arcane nor Dinvine, does it mean that items like scrolls, wands, rods and staves can not be used by any other spellcasters but the artificer himself? Or does it by creature hit by these items can not be effect cause of the earlier statement? I am bit confused still by this statement.
Davy Jones' Locker 03-07-05, 02:23 PM	In the Eberron Errat it says that items created by Artificers are neither Arcane nor Dinvine, does it mean that items like scrolls, wands, rods and staves can not be used by any other spellcasters but the artificer himself? Or does it by creature hit by these items can not be effect cause of the earlier statement? I am bit confused still by this statement. Use of Artificer scrolls require a UMD check, regardless of who is using them. Not sure about other items. This also means that they are not subject to arcane spell failure %. I'm a little confused about the wording of your last question. If you have any further questions, you might want to take a look at this thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373293).
Dragom 03-07-05, 02:25 PM	I think it means that scrolls cannot be used by other casters. Wands and staves still contain spells that may (or may not be) on another casters list and so may be usable.
Redbeard_Gamer 03-07-05, 05:35 PM	It doesn't make sense that an artificer's scrolls are useable only by other artificers. That would effectively be creating a third class of magic. My interpretation would be that as the magic is neither arcane nor divine, it is accessible by both. This is in line with the artificer being a support-type class. Of course, if it's not part of your spell list you should still need a UMD check. Here's the thought process. There's Magic. Arcane and Divine are just ways of accessing it. Since Artificers work with it in a material manner, they don't use those paths. Since the item - the magical inscription of the scroll - is already endowed with magic, anyone with a magical aptitude should have to use it.
MarkB 03-07-05, 05:48 PM	After that errata came out, there were a lot of discussions on this subject, and Keith Baker suggested a house-rule that Artificer scrolls could be used by any caster with the spell on their spell list as though it were an ordinary arcane or divine spell, but only for the purposes of casting the spell - wizards would not be able to scribe the spell. Since the change seems to have been made in order to prevent artificers from being an infinitely flexible source of new spells for wizards to scribe, this houserule is a sensible compromise - for one thing, it eliminates the errata'd version's greatest problem, the fact that a 1st-level NPC artificer would not be able to craft any saleable items - but it is, despite the source, only a houserule. Officially, the only way to use an artificer scroll is via UMD.
technodemon 03-07-05, 06:37 PM	I understand about the scrolls but what about wands, rods (not sure on this) and staves? These are very different from scrolls and the confusion on the errata.
Davy Jones' Locker 03-07-05, 06:43 PM	According to the errata, "Magic Items created by an Artificer are considered neither arcane nor divine." So technically/officially by the RAW(rules as written), they all require UMD checks. Now, if you want to use the house rule suggested above, then that is your perogative.
Crimsonsun 03-07-05, 08:04 PM	I kinda always figured it like this for scrolls Arcane made scroll (Wiz/Sorc/etc) - Proper forumula, markings, rituals, diagrams, etc. A magical version of a schematic Divine made scroll (druid/cleric/etc) - Words of prayers to a diety or force of nature. Sermon like Artificer made scroll - Scribbles and random babble that could ONLY make sense to another artificer or soemone trained in random magic "poking". Magical shorthand?
Alextroy 03-07-05, 09:15 PM	I understand about the scrolls but what about wands, rods (not sure on this) and staves? These are very different from scrolls and the confusion on the errata. Scrolls are Spell Completion items and must match the type of magic (Arcane or Divine) the character cast to be usable. Therefore, a typeless scroll created by an Artificer cannot be used by either Arcane or Divine casters. Wands and Staffs are Spell Trigger items and therefore can be used by anyone with the spell in question on their Class Spell list. Rods are generally Use Activated or Command Word items and can be used by any character that meets the requirements of the rod in question. Alextroy
Gunrock 03-07-05, 09:22 PM	Scrolls are Spell Completion items and must match the type of magic (Arcane or Divine) the character cast to be usable. Therefore, a typeless scroll created by an Artificer cannot be used by either Arcane or Divine casters. They should be useable with a successful Use Magic Device check. The RAW make any spell complettion item useable witha successful UMD check. Since that is cross-class for all casters, and most don't put points in it anyway, they won't be able to try (trained only) and they will probably fail if they can. Still, it means Artificers aren't totally uselesss when they only have scrolls handy and get knocked out.
Alextroy 03-07-05, 09:35 PM	They should be useable with a successful Use Magic Device check. The RAW make any spell complettion item useable witha successful UMD check. Since that is cross-class for all casters, and most don't put points in it anyway, they won't be able to try (trained only) and they will probably fail if they can. Still, it means Artificers aren't totally uselesss when they only have scrolls handy and get knocked out. That goes without saying, since that is the point of Use Magic Device ;) It is also how Artificers have to use the scrolls they make themselves. Alextroy
Dragom 03-08-05, 06:19 PM	You forget... Bards are full casters and have UMD. And spellcraft and Decifer script that produce UMD synergies to trying to use scrolls. So at 2nd level: UMD = 5 ranks + Cha + 4 synergy So remember... Theres a good Bard+Artificer support rank party thing. Almost as good as the Wizard+Cleric mix.