Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OOSYKES OO 08-11-05, 05:32 PM	I am currently running a game and the party includes an artificer who is just reaching level 6. I am worried about him being able to create lots of magic items for himself and the rest of the group and making the party too strong. I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem and how they overcame it. I was also wondering how many of the magic items listed in the DMG and various other places should the artificer be aware of?
makeshiftwings 08-11-05, 05:38 PM	By default, the artificer is aware of every magical item in the DMG. But technically, so is every other class, some of them just don't know how to make them. The artificer will make a bunch of magic items in the party; there's no way to get around that, without making up house rules that make the artificer completely useless. Making magic items is his one purpose. It's balanced, more or less. There are some ways to abuse it, but there are just as many ways to abuse a wizard, druid, or monk.
Altaris13 08-11-05, 05:45 PM	The artificer is actually really cool. I've DM'd one and played another, and it comes out balanced in the end. If the arti /really/ goes overboard with crafting, they'll be eating into their XP. The craft reserve doesn't go as far as some people think.
OOSYKES OO 08-11-05, 05:57 PM	Thanks for the replies.Well as i understand things the artificer doesnt have to use any XP because he can retain essence and augment his craft pool. So he can (and my guy will) make as much as he possibly can, whilst i can accept this and make encounters more challenging it just doesnt mesh with my view of Eberron being a low power magic setting as he could create all sorts of devastating stuff.
Just another user 08-11-05, 06:07 PM	Thanks for the replies.Well as i understand things the artificer doesnt have to use any XP because he can retain essence and augment his craft pool. So he can (and my guy will) make as much as he possibly can, whilst i can accept this and make encounters more challenging it just doesnt mesh with my view of Eberron being a low power magic setting as he could create all sorts of devastating stuff. but to retain essence he needs magic items and there is not a 100% efficiency. Also he need some extra time that is not (should not) always availlable.
jonthegm 08-11-05, 06:09 PM	Heh, if artificers are overpowered, then so is everything else. Like Rangers, the Artificer requires DM collusion to reach its maximum potential.
Kinger 08-11-05, 06:37 PM	Really, an artificer isn't going to produce many more magic items than the party would have had anyway. Think about it like this: Party finds magic item with market price 1000gp. Party can: A) Keep item B) Sell item for ~500gp C) Retain Essence for 40 Craft XP If B or C, Artificer can craft a NEW 1000gp item, spending either the gold earned (if B) or the XP earned (if C). Essentially, the party made a trade for the new item, throwing in some gold/XP to sweeten the deal. If you reward your players mainly with tons of cash and little in the way of magical items, then you're right, they're going to have a lot more magic items than normal thanks to the Artificer. If all the party gets is gold, they can essentially get all their magic stuff at half price, assuming the Artificer is willing to spend his craft reserve (and make no money for himself). It's going to take a helluva long time, though. If, however, your players are rewarded with magical gear more often, then the party will not get much more than normal, simply because the Arty doesn't have the extra cash lying around to fund much more construction. The main difference in this case is that the party's gear will likely be custom-tailored. No longer will the party have items they wouldn't have bought on their own. NOW, they'll have likely exactly what they're looking for.
Moria 08-11-05, 06:56 PM	The Artificer is Overpowered Just wait until he reaches 9th level, and starts having fun with Wands and his infusions (Metamagic item). With enough time, and some metamagic feats (if he starts getting those, beware), his wand will start making a lot of damage.
Kinger 08-11-05, 07:17 PM	The Artificer is Overpowered Just wait until he reaches 9th level, and starts having fun with Wands and his infusions (Metamagic item). With enough time, and some metamagic feats (if he starts getting those, beware), his wand will start making a lot of damage. I believe the blast-centric artificer can be so effective due to the metamagic feats themselves, not the artificer herself. Using only those feats in the PH, it's not all that special. The "problems" arise when you add things like Twin Spell, Admixture, and Persistent Spell. If you can show me an artificer that blows the living bejeezus out of everything without fail using only the 9 metamagic feats out of the PH I will concede my point. I'm sure, however, that the blastificer is only truly twinkish when you start throwing feats in from sources like Complete Arcane (which aren't noted for their inherent game balance, I don't think ;) ).
Edymnion 08-11-05, 07:20 PM	He is no more overpowered because of his item creation than a wizard with the same feats is. Heck, the Wizard that takes the crafting feats is still head and shoulders above the Artificer because he still gets full spellcasting on top of being able to make every arcane item in the game (which is most of them).
OOSYKES OO 08-11-05, 07:31 PM	Ah well, i don't mind how many magic items/weapons he makes as long as the group are having fun with it. If they get too powerful with magic items etc and grow to depend on them well that just leaves more fun for me! ;)
Kinger 08-11-05, 07:54 PM	Ah well, i don't mind how many magic items/weapons he makes as long as the group are having fun with it. If they get too powerful with magic items etc and grow to depend on them well that just leaves more fun for me! ;) "Damn, guys! That's like the eighth Ethereal Filcher we've had to deal with! I would have thought we could have had a rest after facing that Living Disjunction and pair of Spellweavers!" :)
timothyx 08-11-05, 07:55 PM	Sure, the Artificer can make anything, the point is, are they going to? Sure, you can basically gimp your player and the group, and then he can't make anything he wants. But you're just taking away the fun. While yes, I'll be able to make anything I like using my Greater Dragonmark of making.. I won't be able to produce more than 1 masterworked item a day, be it armor, or weapons, I still need the materials and the gold to do so.. Except by making a Fabricate Scroll, which will eat into my xp, and craft pool right quick, the Artificer isn't nearly as over powered. The simple fact is that any class can be twinked out into a munchkins wet fantasy. Powergaming or min/max being a signifigant differance.
mafiel 08-11-05, 08:26 PM	The simple way to keep form abusing things is time ... it takes time to build those objetcs alot of time ... if you players dont have a lot of down time your limiting his ability to produce magical objects ... also keep in mind that if he wants to produce a masterwork full plate , hes got 2 choices by it masterwork or make it taking even more time. So basicaly its a matter of time ... now how many times di i use the word time ?
timothyx 08-11-05, 08:34 PM	The simple way to keep form abusing things is time ... it takes time to build those objetcs alot of time ... if you players dont have a lot of down time your limiting his ability to produce magical objects ... also keep in mind that if he wants to produce a masterwork full plate , hes got 2 choices by it masterwork or make it taking even more time. So basicaly its a matter of time ... now how many times di i use the word time ? Time means nothing to an Artificer with access to the Fabricate spell as far as masterwork items... however.. when making magic items, time is always a factor.. 1000gp per day (which translates to 8 hours RAW), it always takes time to make things.. However, again, the artificer can easilly be gimped by a poor DM by simply not allowing "down time" or allowing game time to make items..
Edymnion 08-12-05, 01:35 AM	The simple way to keep form abusing things is timeDedicated Wright. Set him to work building your big ticket items, and then go on and keep adventuring while he's busy. A portable hole means you can put an entire workshop in there, throw him in the hole, and have him work on your gear while you carry him around in your pocket. They still have to actually wait for the item to get made, but they can do other things while they're at it.
Thievingrouge 08-12-05, 01:48 AM	Dedicated Wright. Set him to work building your big ticket items, and then go on and keep adventuring while he's busy. A portable hole means you can put an entire workshop in there, throw him in the hole, and have him work on your gear while you carry him around in your pocket. :rofl: That IS AWESOME. the portable hole that is...... In my new campaign, I'll need to tell the artificer that one! lol, I love ideas like that!
aelryinth 08-12-05, 04:01 AM	I believe the blast-centric artificer can be so effective due to the metamagic feats themselves, not the artificer herself. Using only those feats in the PH, it's not all that special. The "problems" arise when you add things like Twin Spell, Admixture, and Persistent Spell. If you can show me an artificer that blows the living bejeezus out of everything without fail using only the 9 metamagic feats out of the PH I will concede my point. I'm sure, however, that the blastificer is only truly twinkish when you start throwing feats in from sources like Complete Arcane (which aren't noted for their inherent game balance, I don't think ;) ). restricting some sources and not others (the artificer isn't in the PH, for instance) does tend to put a damper on things...but not all that much. Consider. 10th level Wand of Empowered Scorching Ray. Artificer with Wand Master, and lets throw in 3 levels of Cannith Wand Adept. Relevant Feats are Quicken, and Quicken/MAximize. We are NOT going to stack Infusions...one is Metamagic Item, the other is for Metamagic Spell Trigger Item. YOur Scorching Ray goes off at 15th level. That gives you 4 rays for 4d6 each. They are Empowered, so for simplicity, let's just say 6d6 each. We have a base of 24d6 dmg...and that's just the wand. For NO charges, We can either Quicken or Maximize. let's just Quicken the wand, and now we can cast two of these. So for two charges, we have 48d6 dmg a round, in the form of 8 touch attacks. Average dmg, a paltry 156 base, assuming all rays hit. Now, we have the Spell Trigger option. Let's Infuse the Maximze and Spell Trigger for 4 charges the Quicken. Damage will be (24+2d6)x4, x2 for the first one being quickened. So 192 dmg +16d6, in the form of 8 touch attacks. Cost, 5 charges. Dmg/rd, base 248. Feats right out of the PH. Show me a CR12 critter without fire immunity that can take that kind of abuse, eh. If you waive the CWA and just stick with Wand Mastery, he loses 1/4 of the damage (one ray per charge), but gains 3 levels of artificer back. More infusions and craft reserve. So, 144 +12d6 dmg is 'all' he can do. And let's not get into dual wand wielding fun, shall we? Or the fact that no save, no SR Elemental Orb wands are probably more useful and flexible. ==Aelryinth
Pax 08-12-05, 07:38 AM	Artificers are, IMO, only overpowered in games where Item Creation Feats themselves are seen as overpowered. which is a premise I don't agree with. As a GM, I would LIKe there to be an artificer in the party ... because then, I don't have to keep as careful an eye on the issue of "have I given them the specificmagic items theyneed to survive the encounter down thehall" ... Artificers almost ensure that the party WILL, at least temporarily, have any key, required-for-survival but rarely-found-in-PC-hands item/ability/etc.
6457890 08-12-05, 09:40 AM	If you think the artificer is making a lot of items and making the party a lot more powerful than it should, and you dont want to cut time, you can simply make them suffer: -Sundering opponents (large creatures with greatswords of adamantine :D) -Ghitzerai (which have shatter as a psionic) -Creatures with a material damage reduction can be very anoying. (Byeshk, Targath, Adamantine, and so on). -Put them in fast moving waters, so they have a chance to loose items. -Put them to fly over a rift and a beholder uses antimagic field :D (actually used that) -Use antimagic field variants to minimize the items effectiveness. -A trap of moredekains disjunction. :S That hurts... -Kill them, so that there current money is not enough and need to sell stuff -Rust monster, magmin (probably with ure own twisted touches to make them stronger). -Use oozes that engulf so they loose their weapons do to acid. And you can create some of your own.
BuddyL33 08-12-05, 10:49 AM	While the Artificer can churn out magic items he still needs gp to pay for the raw materials. If you stick to the wealth progression charts provided in the DMG, this shouldn't be an issue.
Kinger 08-12-05, 01:44 PM	Assorted Twinkery... :) I may just have to concede my point. I'll leave the discussion on whether wands can be Quickened for another thread. I wouldn't think your Blastificer would be much good for anything but blasting, though, and he's going to go through wands like nobody's business. Especially if he starts dual-wielding. Doesn't stop the fact he can split atoms with Scorching Ray, though. :)
Pax 08-12-05, 03:27 PM	I wouldn't think your Blastificer would be much good for anything but blasting, though, and he's going to go through wands like nobody's business. Well, maybe ... and then again, maybe not. I've tested out an Artificer / Cannith Wand Adept (wand-use-related PrC in S:CoT) at 15th level, and he was able to burn through nineteen charges in one round, split between two wands. OTOH, when not burning insane numbers of charges to add metamagics and dual-wield, Artificers have an Infusion which can give a wand (or other charged item) "temporary charges". So it's possible, with careful use, to make a single wand last three, four, or maybe even FIVE times as long as expected. ^_^
jonthegm 08-12-05, 04:02 PM	I'm a twink! My DM loves me! A 15th level wand of scorching ray only provides 3 rays (You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level).). 4d6 each, which on average gives you 21 empowered damage apiece. So that's 63 average damage to one target. also... CR 12 without fire-immunity? Hmm.... how about 5 flesh golems? You lose. EDITED:Or to be more fair (magic immunity is a *****!), a CR 11 Blue Dragon? If the artificer has an 18 DEX, then he has a 66% chance of actually connecting with the dragon at all (9 AC vs a 13 attack, and a 19 SR). EDITED: Or wait... a Kolyarut Inevitable! 52% chance! (11 AC, 22 SR) Doesn't sound like there's much of a problem with balance as long as you're keeping on top of things as a DM.
Pinky's brain 08-12-05, 05:09 PM	Against creatures with SR you take a wand with an orb spell. Also you have to hit touch AC, not AC.
jonthegm 08-12-05, 05:22 PM	Against creatures with SR you take a wand with an orb spell. Also you have to hit touch AC, not AC. My bad. Will fix. Also, orb spells? Are you talking about Acid Splash? 1d3 regardless of CL?
Pinky's brain 08-12-05, 05:31 PM	No I meant the orb spells from complete arcane, conjuration spells which ignore SR. My DM provisionally (noone is playing a full blown artificer yet) put a metamagic cap on metamagic spell trigger, at an equivalent spell level of (caster level)/2. Thinking about it though, combined with metamagic item a 12th level artificer could still get off 2 twinned scorching rays for an average of 168 damage (and with that many dice average you usually get close to average). Even this probably is overpowered at that level.
spencerhaas 08-12-05, 06:08 PM	restricting some sources and not others (the artificer isn't in the PH, for instance) does tend to put a damper on things...but not all that much. Consider. 10th level Wand of Empowered Scorching Ray. Artificer with Wand Master, and lets throw in 3 levels of Cannith Wand Adept. Relevant Feats are Quicken, and Quicken/MAximize. We are NOT going to stack Infusions...one is Metamagic Item, the other is for Metamagic Spell Trigger Item. YOur Scorching Ray goes off at 15th level. That gives you 4 rays for 4d6 each. They are Empowered, so for simplicity, let's just say 6d6 each. We have a base of 24d6 dmg...and that's just the wand. For NO charges, We can either Quicken or Maximize. let's just Quicken the wand, and now we can cast two of these. So for two charges, we have 48d6 dmg a round, in the form of 8 touch attacks. Average dmg, a paltry 156 base, assuming all rays hit. Now, we have the Spell Trigger option. Let's Infuse the Maximze and Spell Trigger for 4 charges the Quicken. Damage will be (24+2d6)x4, x2 for the first one being quickened. So 192 dmg +16d6, in the form of 8 touch attacks. Cost, 5 charges. Dmg/rd, base 248. Feats right out of the PH. Show me a CR12 critter without fire immunity that can take that kind of abuse, eh. If you waive the CWA and just stick with Wand Mastery, he loses 1/4 of the damage (one ray per charge), but gains 3 levels of artificer back. More infusions and craft reserve. So, 144 +12d6 dmg is 'all' he can do. And let's not get into dual wand wielding fun, shall we? Or the fact that no save, no SR Elemental Orb wands are probably more useful and flexible. ==Aelryinth Let me start by saying that ,though your math was slightly off,it's an outstanding application of min/maxing.It even sounded like you were holding back.I know some people have a problem with that,some might even be intimidated by your exceptionally creative use of the system, but I have a different take.If you wasted a CR12 creature,solo,in one round,at my table, i'd(after checking the math) give you a standing ovation.And you'd have a new level of respect from me and likely your entire table.Of course after the initial shock wore off,i'd keep my eyes on you.At this point you've earned a little extra attention from the DM like a star player in the NFL does from opposing football teams.It's not to penalize you...it's to challenge you. I think i'm on the same page as jonthegm on this.PCs may be tough...real tough.They may think of stuff you did'nt.But once you become aware of their capabilities,you the DM should be back in control.Just a couple of other ways you could adjust for the Blastificer(cool name by the way)... -Creatures with high touch AC (Dread Wraith TAC=25 CR11) -Creatures resistant to fire(devils/demons) -Swarms(Hellfire would be about CR appropriate) -Make large groups of weaker creatures for him to waste his charges on and spell up the bad guys you want to be individually more powerful and challenging(globe of invulnerability will stop all wand usage cold but the possibilities really are numerous) -use disarm/sunder/grapple -use invisisble opponents What i'm saying is that your PC is being creative,don't reward him by calling it broken.Think outside the box.It's just a challenge to your skills as a DM.After all,you are calling the shots,right?If you're stumped,there are all sorts of characters on this web site that can give alternatives you might have missed.Heck,I never even thought of using the Use Magic Device skill until I saw the applications with Artificers.Now rogues and bards that I play have a whole new list of options. One more thing.I strongly disagree with the concept that the Blastificer would ever be only good at blasting things. -As far as wands go,any/all 4th lvl spells are fair game(Divine Power+Life Drinker Axe+Death Ward+ stoneskin...makes for a particularly brutal combo...Cure critical makes you as welcome as a cleric...haste,resist elements,feather fall,knock,water breathing,spider climb,restoration,etc...you're a wand wielding Macgyver -You can make any scroll you want for higher lvl stuff -You can disable traps as a class skill One last thing.All classes have something that, used to it's fullest,is pretty sick.At 12th lvl this comes to mind; Druid wildshaped into a dire bear(12hr duration).Prior to combat casting quickened bull str and then animal growth for a creature with 10ft reach, 43 str,+33 grapple(improved),claws(2D6+16),10/magic.Keep in mind he's really spellcaster.
Digital Demon 08-12-05, 06:16 PM	Another thing to look out for are the Feats Legendary Artisan and Extraordinary Artisan, both these feats can be taken 4 times and make gold and exp cost nill and as for the time issue if your group's Arti takes the Exceptional Artisan feat 4 times they can basicaly bypass the time issue. ( all 3 feats are on page 49 of the Eberron core book and marked with a number 2 that means You can gain the feat multiple times and the effects stack )
jonthegm 08-12-05, 06:19 PM	Another thing to look out for are the Feats Legendary Artisan and Extraordinary Artisan, both these feats can be taken 4 times and make gold and exp cost nill and as for the time issue if your group's Arti takes the Exceptional Artisan feat 4 times they can basicaly bypass the time issue. ( all 3 feats are on page 49 of the Eberron core book and marked with a number 2 that means You can gain the feat multiple times and the effects stack ) Someone hasn't read the errata!
Crimsonsun 08-12-05, 06:26 PM	Another thing to look out for are the Feats Legendary Artisan and Extraordinary Artisan, both these feats can be taken 4 times and make gold and exp cost nill and as for the time issue if your group's Arti takes the Exceptional Artisan feat 4 times they can basicaly bypass the time issue. ( all 3 feats are on page 49 of the Eberron core book and marked with a number 2 that means You can gain the feat multiple times and the effects stack ) Even if it wasnt erratta'd out of doing that, it would go (cost x 75%) x 75% x75% and so on. never quite zero Also, use the infusion Energy Alteration to get around that nasty fire resistance! Hi, Mr Red Dragon! Fear my scorching rays that do cold damage!
Pinky's brain 08-12-05, 07:10 PM	-Creatures with high touch AC (Dread Wraith TAC=25 CR11)The problem is that he can simply quicken a truestrike from a wand and still kill it with a single attack ... of course that attack has 50% chance of missing unless he has transdimensional spell. -Creatures resistant to fire(devils/demons)Blastificers tend to have energy substitution acid and energy admixture. -Swarms(Hellfire would be about CR appropriate)He can always cast a fireball in 2 rounds by expending an action point (or he might have a scroll around). -Make large groups of weaker creatures for him to waste his charges on and spell up the bad guys you want to be individually more powerful and challenging(globe of invulnerability will stop all wand usage cold but the possibilities really are numerous)Which is why I personally think heighten is a nice feat for blastificers. -use disarm/sunder/grappleEveryone hates sunder ... and casters know they always need to have a way to get away from grapples. Ranged disarm would work nicely, but you can only use tricks so often before they become tiresome. -use invisisble opponentsAt higher level someone in the party can usually see/hear/smell/whatever them coming. Druid wildshaped into a dire bear(12hr duration).Prior to combat casting quickened bull str and then animal growth for a creature with 10ft reach, 43 str,+33 grapple(improved),claws(2D6+16),10/magic.Keep in mind he's really spellcaster.It's strong, and it makes the fighters&barbarians weep ... but he isnt going to be able to instagib a balor like a blastificer can.
spencerhaas 08-12-05, 11:55 PM	Good points all Pinky...but I still don't consider it un-DM-able.And I think that's what you're talking about whenever you call something broken.As DM you also control the enviornment,senses,and circumstances under which this guy operates.There are so many variables...who goes first?...do you know what you're facing or only think you do?...are your buddies in the way?...did it know you were coming,and if so did it prepare? By the way,true strike takes care of the first ray in the round,all the others well? As far as demons/devils,they have at least 10 resist to all but sonic I think,as well as SR.And,a truly evil DM could always take lower lvl outsiders and give them class lvls,or just give em potions.Oh,let's not forget SR. For an interesting encounter with a hellfire swarm,wait till they are in an enclosed space,then let the swarm ooze it's way in...right on top of them. In larger spaces,use a few swarms.I'm not saying it's unbeatable,but it should sting. Heighten Spell is good...but it's unlikely he'll use it from the onslaught cause he probably want's to kill your bad guy fast so he does'nt realize the aura around him is'nt protection from evil or something else.Trust me...he's concentrating on two things;how many dice he's throwing and the look on your face when he tells you how much damage he did.Also,that's a feat he did'nt spend on another damage dealing augmentation...he's only got so many feats... which brings me to this...he can only prepare so much.I mean really,does he spend a charge every 120 min for freedom of movement?How often does he cast see invisibility a day without needing it before he decides it's way too expensive(cause while you can persist a spell,it's now a 6 lvl bump).And even with quicken,he still can only cast twice in a round.Granted...with great effect.But I have to agree with other posts that if kept within limits of party treasure aquisition...he has limits.I'm not looking for ways to kill him...just keep it real. I suppose we could go on and on about it all night,but really,as a DM I still don't have a problem with the Artificer
aelryinth 08-13-05, 01:15 AM	I may just have to concede my point. I'll leave the discussion on whether wands can be Quickened for another thread. I wouldn't think your Blastificer would be much good for anything but blasting, though, and he's going to go through wands like nobody's business. Especially if he starts dual-wielding. Doesn't stop the fact he can split atoms with Scorching Ray, though. :) Look directly at the example given in the ECS, they use Quicken on Wands as an example of Metamagic INfusion...you most certainly can do it. As for the Twinkery, I'm working off material presented in the Optimization Board for Artificers. None of it is original on my part. As for holding back, I'm restricting myself with Hellcow's assertion that Metamagic Infusion doesn't stack on itself. Otherwise, you get the Twinned Admixtured Repeating Empowered Scorching Ray of Quickened Dual-Wielded Doom. (Or the Elemental Orb of same.) As for your examples... A 5th level fireball wand in the hands of this fellow, with one round to Empower it, becomes a 15hd fireball hurler. So much for hordes of wimps. I can even give it 3 temporary charges and not even use the wand up...just give me two rounds, eh? For creatures with SR and suchlike, you use the elemental orbs...especially force orbs, which do not do elemental damage. Remember that this is ONE wand. He gets 5 levels with ANY wand. The only way to restrict an artificer pursuing thie route is to restrict gold and magic item flow....Time he can get around with a Dedicated Wright, and even gold cost becomes mutable once he takes Artisan feats and can easily sell magic items for profit. In short, the Artificer is doing what he is supposed to do. I gave an example with PHB spells (and fell down on the 3 ray max, but that just means the latter example of 144 +8d6 works all the time). A Wand of Forceball (published spell) can get REAL messy, as it has a base 15d6 cap, and it's a level 4 spell, for area affect mook clearage (Empower for 22d6, Mooks? Temp charges to not use up the Wand?) As for not being good at other stuff, doing the quicken/Empower/Max thing takes 3 feats...he's done with it by level 3! Wand Master at 6, and we aren't even talking about dipping into bonus feats... A decent Blastificer is going to have at least 4 wands for various foes, and this is going to go up with levels. They should also have a variety of scrolls, wands, potions and spell-storing capability to deal with a large variety of situations, like any decent spellcaster...except this is the FOCUS of the class. Every day, a UMD check, and a Dedicated Wright to finish it up. As for the Dread Wraith, sure, that's a high touch AC. Ignoring the incoporeality with Elemental Force ORb, I'm still going to hit it about half the time, at 22d6 a shot, 4 shots a round...44d6 dmg is 154 damage. Ouch to our Wraith. And then it has the rest of the party to worry about. So, it's a strong class. I'm not even going to hint on Persistent buffs abuse. ==Aelryinth
Pax 08-13-05, 05:27 AM	Just foir giggles, here's a poorly-optimised Gestalt (ECL 15) wand-wielding maniac of an Artificer I ran (once or twice) in my Arena. Or, well, PART of him (you don't need to be subjected to the ENTIRE character sheet, justthe "Blastificer"-esque highlights ...) CHARACTER NAME : Nathon d'Cannith RACE (ECL) : Human CLASS (LEVEL) : Artificer(15)/ Rogue(7)/ Cannith Wand Adept(3)/ Dragonmark Heir(5) Level 1 : Artificer 1 ... : Rogue 1 Level 2 : Artificer 2 ... : Rogue 2 Level 3 : Artificer 3 ... : Rogue 3 Level 4 : Artificer 4 ... : Rogue 4 Level 5 : Artificer 5 ... : Rogue 5 Level 6 : Artificer 6 ... : Rogue 6 Level 7 : Artificer 7 ... : Rogue 7 Level 8 : Artificer 8 ... : Dragonmark Heir 1 Level 9 : Artificer 9 ... : Dragonmark Heir 2 Level 10 : Artificer 10 ... : Dragonmark Heir 3 Level 11 : Artificer 11 ... : Dragonmark Heir 4 Level 12 : Artificer 12 ... : Dragonmark Heir 5 Level 13 : Artificer 13 ... : Cannith Wand Adept 1 Level 14 : Artificer 14 ... : Cannith Wand Adept 2 Level 15 : Artificer 15 ... : Cannith Wand Adept 3 ... NET LEVEL : 15-gestalt ABILITY SCORES Str 10(+0) (10/base -/lvl -/enh) 0p Dex 18(+4) (14/base -/lvl 4/enh) 8p Con 20(+5) (15/base 1/lvl 4/enh) 13p Int 22(+6) (16/base 2/lvl 4/enh) 18p Wis 10(+0) (10/base -/lvl -/enh) 0p Chr 15(+2) (11/base -/lvl 4/enh) 1p WEAPONS Wand of Force Orb Range : Medium; 220' Attack : Touch, +16 (11/bab 4/dex 1/foc) Net Caster Level : 12 Effect : 10d6[force] damage Saving Throw? : none Wand of Scorching Ray Range : Medium (220') Attack : Touch, +16/+16/+16 (11/bab 4/dex 1/foc) Net Caster Level : 11 Effect : 3 rays dealing 4d6[fire] each Saving Throw? : none Wand of Melf's Acid Arrow Range : long (880') Attack : Touch, +16 (11/bab 4/dex 1/foc) Net Caster Level : 12 Effect : 4d4[acid] immediate, +2d4/round for 4 rounds Saving Throw? : none Wand of Infestation of Maggots (CD) Range : Touch Attack : +12 (11/bab -/str 1/foc) Net Caster Level : 10 Effect : 1d4 temporary Con damage per round, for 5 rounds Saving Throw? : Fortitude, DC 17 per round, negates and ends effect Wand of Poison Needles (CA) Range : Close; 55' Attack : Touch, +16 (11/bab 4/dex 1/foc) Net Caster Level : 12 Effect : 5d4 damage, and [1d8Con/1d8Con] or [1d10Dex/1d10Dex] attribute damage. Saving Throw? : Fortitude, DC 19, negates the attribute damage CLASS FEATURES Artificer (15) Bonus feats (by the gallon) Craft Homunculous Retain Essence Metamagic Spell Trigger Metamagic Spell Completion Artisan Bonus Artificer Knowledge Disable trap Skill Mastery (UMD) Item Creation Craft Reserve (12) (out of 3,950 to date) Rogue (7) +4d6 Sneak attack Trapfinding Improved Uncanny Dodge Evasion Trap Sense +4 Dragonmark Heir (5) Bonus Dragonmark Feats House Status +5 Additional Action Points +2 Improved Least Dragonmark Improved Lesser Dragonmark Improved Greater Dragonmark Cannith Wand Adept (3) Identify Wand Wand Focus +1 to attack rolls +3 caster level +3 to all DCs (stacks with Wand Mastery) Wand Quickdraw Dual Wand Use Siphon Charge Improved Dragonmark (+1/day of Least mark ability) FEATS Race [ECS ] Least Dragonmark (Making; Make Whole) Cha 1 m[ CA ] Transdimensional Spell Art 1 [PHB ] Scribe Scroll Art 2 [PHB ] Brew Potion Cha 3 [ECS ] Favored In House (Cannith) Art 3 [PHB ] Craft Wondrous Item Art 4 [ECS ] Legendary Artisan Art 5 [PHB ] Craft Magic Arms and Armor Cha 6 m[ CA ] Twin Spell Art 7 [PHB ] Craft Wand Art 8 [ECS ] Wand Mastery DMH 1 [ECS ] Lesser Dragonmark (Making; Minor Creation) Cha 9 [ CA ] Wandstrike Art 9 [PHB ] Craft Rod Cha 12 m[PHB ] Maximise Spell Art 12 [PHB ] Craft Staff Art 12 [ECS ] Extraordinary Artisan DMH 1 [ECS ] Greater Dragonmark (Making; Major Creation) Art 14 [PHB ] Forge Ring Cha 15 [ CA ] Craft Contingent Spell EQUIPMENT |--price--| |--where--| |--book--| |---Item------------------------------------------------| 5gp - PHB Spell Component Pouch 4,000gp - - Infusion Components, assorted (2Kgp value) CRAFTING COSTS |-----gp-||-----xp-||-SL-||-CL-||-WFC?-||-Item/Effect--------------------------------------| 5,400gp 432xp 2 6 - 2x Wand of Scorching Ray (PHB, 20ch) [each: Market Value 7,200gp; Crafting Value 2,700gp, 216xp] [both: Market Value 14,400gp; Crafting Value 5,400gp, 432xp] 12,600gp 1,008xp 4 7 - 2x Wand of Orb of Force (CA, 20ch) [each: Market Value 16,800gp; Crafting Value 6,300gp, 504xp] [both: Market Value 33,600gp; Crafting Value 12,600gp, 1,008xp] 3,150gp 252xp 4 7 - Wand of Poison Needles (CA, Dex damage, 10ch) [each: Market Value 8,400gp; Crafting Value 3,150gp, 252xp] 3,150gp 252xp 4 7 - Wand of Poison Needles (CA, Con damage, 10ch) [each: Market Value 8,400gp; Crafting Value 3,150gp, 252xp] 3,376gp 270xp 3 5 - 2x Wand of Infestation of Maggots (CD, 10ch) [each: Market Value 4,500gp; Crafting Value 1,688gp, 135xp] [both: Market Value 9,000gp; Crafting Value 3,376gp, 270xp] 6,300gp 504xp 2 7 - 2x Wand of Melf's Acid Arrow (PHB, 20ch) [each: Market Value 8,400gp; Crafting Value 3,150gp, 252xp] [both: Market Value 16,800gp; Crafting Value 6,300gp, 504xp] Keep in mind, between the "Cannith Wand Adept" prestige class (S:COT) and "Wand Mastery" feat, any wand Naton wielded had it's effective caster level increased by +5 (total), and any relevant save DCs increased by +5 as well. So that's really caster level 10 for Infestationof Maggots ... caster level 11 for Scorching Ray ... and caster level 12 for all the other wands. That's the very character I burned 19 charges with, in one round. ^_^; Shame my opponent was able tolaugh at the effects (between high touch AC and immunities, well ... "what a waste" doiesn't even BEGIN to describe the result of that one round). Note, though: that arena has much different rules for handling expendible items - they cost muchmore, but are replaced for free after every match. Hence, the costs and number of charges above might not make a great deal of sense ... and the character could AFFORD to vaporise a dozen and a half charges in one "go", on a regular basis. In an actual, long-running campaign? You'd almost NEVER catch me dual-wieldign the wands, unless the fecal matter had TRULY hit the air-circulation device ...!!!
spencerhaas 08-13-05, 01:05 PM	Ok,now I see the problem.I was thinking about it...pondering the options.They are numerous. Golems,Living Spells,Anti-magic zones,Spell Warped Abominations... Then it hit me.They'd all work great...the Artificer(s'cuse me, Blastificer) would be handily dealt with.But then again,so would the entire spell casting community.I've yet to meet any spell slinger that relished a dungeon full of anti-magic/spell siphoning/uber high SR having baddies.As the Artificer's abilities(meta magically speaking) stand,he truly is more powerful than other spell-casting classes.Hands down...I now see it.By dealing with his abilities specifically,you greatly reduce the role of your other spellcasters Then I had another thought.Bards and sorcerers must use a full round action to enhance their 1 action spells...maybe that would work with Artificers.You would'nt be able to dual wield meta magic spell effects.Or just limit the ability to meta magically alter a spell trigger device to one per spell.You can quicken,maximize,heighten,etc...but only one at a time...can't stack effects.Yeah,I think that sounds more reasonable. Comments?
Kinger 08-13-05, 03:15 PM	I said I wouldn't, but here I am anyway... You can only cast one quickened spell in a round, right? So, even if you Quicken a wand, can't you still only cast from it once in a round? Can you just ignore a buff (ie: the Metamagic Infusion) when it suits you? The way I see it, you can still get two blasts off in a round. However, it involves using the Metamagic Spell Trigger ability for Quicken, which is going to burn through charges like nobody's business. Sure, you can give temporary charges with an infusion, but that's costing you XP every time too, and I don't think you can use your Craft Reserve for that...
Pinky's brain 08-13-05, 03:54 PM	BTW if you burn a lot of charges through metamagic spelltrigger reckless wand wielding actually turns out to be cheaper if you need to reach a certain caster level. XP is cheap ... lag a level and you get lots and lots of it. Spencer, as I said before ... Id just put a metamagic cap on the use of wands. If a wizard wants to deal damage he can do a quickened scorching ray followed by a disintegrate ... seeing as the artificer needs to actually burn resources I dont think he should be forced to only be able to get off a single spell a round.
makeshiftwings 08-13-05, 04:22 PM	.As the Artificer's abilities(meta magically speaking) stand,he truly is more powerful than other spell-casting classes.Hands down...I now see it. I disagree... if you go to the Character Optimization board, you will see extremely broken builds for wizards with PrC's, druids, psions, etc. Keep in mind wands only go up to level 4 spells, and that some ridiculous blastificer tricks that use 10 charges per round, which he needs to pay for in gold and his rapidly dwindling craft pool or xp, as well as time. With the normal 13 encounters per level, that means you need to build 8 wands of scorching ray per level, which does add up. The wizard/druid/psion can do tons of damage without spending any xp, gold, or time at all.
Moria 08-13-05, 10:52 PM	I don't think the Artificer is better than the wizards or clerics at Spellcasting. They may be able to deal the same amount of damage, but that's not all spellcasting is about. They simply don't have that kind of versatility. That said, they have an advantage in the item's creation, and sometimes, that can even the odds. Myself, I don't try that hard to stop them. Let them enjoy their powers. After all, if everything else fails, if they start stomping your Balors and Dragons, you can always send a few artificers after them...
Kinger 08-14-05, 12:43 AM	Myself, I don't try that hard to stop them. Let them enjoy their powers. After all, if everything else fails, if they start stomping your Balors and Dragons, you can always send a few artificers after them... One good twink deserves another. Fighting fire with fire is always fun. :)
Pinky's brain 08-14-05, 12:52 AM	A blastificer facing off with a blastificer is simply a battle of initiatives ... not very interesting.
spencerhaas 08-14-05, 11:48 AM	I definately think there should be a moderate fix on these guys.Level limits...like wizards?Hmmm...I think i'll try DMing some notorious min/maxers this weekend and try the various options.I hate when people call things broken just because they lack the imagination to DM a good challenging fight,but their have been times when the label fit(3.0 psychofeedback combined with kinetisist and disintigrate at DC...hm he looks tough lets set it at 40...erase 80,no 87 pp,have a nice day). As for Artificers lacking versatility...gimme a break.They are possibly the most versatile characters in the game.Pick a spell list...any and all spell lists.Need a fighter....divine power+magic weapon+stoneskin+bull strength,any and all persistable if you like.And,any spell is available to them,metamagically altered,on scroll. Oh,and as a side note,their class skill to disable device does'nt hurt.I don't see how versatility is an issue. All in all,a fantastic character option in my book,but they could use a minor adjustment here and there.
aelryinth 08-15-05, 02:23 AM	At higher level, the craft reserve, efficent magic item creation, and ability to make anything makes them THE class for getting outfitted with custom gear...10's of thousands of gp worth of gear more then those around them, if they deem fit. Limits on Infusions/day prevent some abuse, but not all of it. An Artificer with a good variety of wands, metamagic feats to enhance them, scrolls of unusual spells, and skillpoints into things like DD, Search and the like can perform MANY functions for a party. ==Aelryinth
zambuka 08-15-05, 03:00 AM	restricting some sources and not others (the artificer isn't in the PH, for instance) does tend to put a damper on things...but not all that much. Consider. 10th level Wand of Empowered Scorching Ray. Artificer with Wand Master, and lets throw in 3 levels of Cannith Wand Adept. Relevant Feats are Quicken, and Quicken/MAximize. We are NOT going to stack Infusions...one is Metamagic Item, the other is for Metamagic Spell Trigger Item. YOur Scorching Ray goes off at 15th level. That gives you 4 rays for 4d6 each. They are Empowered, so for simplicity, let's just say 6d6 each. We have a base of 24d6 dmg...and that's just the wand. For NO charges, We can either Quicken or Maximize. let's just Quicken the wand, and now we can cast two of these. So for two charges, we have 48d6 dmg a round, in the form of 8 touch attacks. Average dmg, a paltry 156 base, assuming all rays hit. Now, we have the Spell Trigger option. Let's Infuse the Maximze and Spell Trigger for 4 charges the Quicken. Damage will be (24+2d6)x4, x2 for the first one being quickened. So 192 dmg +16d6, in the form of 8 touch attacks. Cost, 5 charges. Dmg/rd, base 248. Feats right out of the PH. Show me a CR12 critter without fire immunity that can take that kind of abuse, eh. If you waive the CWA and just stick with Wand Mastery, he loses 1/4 of the damage (one ray per charge), but gains 3 levels of artificer back. More infusions and craft reserve. So, 144 +12d6 dmg is 'all' he can do. And let's not get into dual wand wielding fun, shall we? Or the fact that no save, no SR Elemental Orb wands are probably more useful and flexible. ==Aelryinth Nice twinkery there. it is doable yes, a wizard could do just the same. Problem is that you are leaving out the associated costs. XP, gold, and a huge amount of downtime. EDIT: got the numbers wrong here. But still, by creating such an item the artificer is blowing a serious chunk of his craft reserve on a single item that has only 12 uses. He can make much better use of this craft reserve and make items that have a much longer use, like bracers or a ring of defence, a wand of heal etc :ENDEDIT
aelryinth 08-16-05, 12:56 AM	Nice twinkery there. it is doable yes, a wizard could do just the same. Problem is that you are leaving out the associated costs. XP, gold, and a huge amount of downtime. EDIT: got the numbers wrong here. But still, by creating such an item the artificer is blowing a serious chunk of his craft reserve on a single item that has only 12 uses. He can make much better use of this craft reserve and make items that have a much longer use, like bracers or a ring of defence, a wand of heal etc :ENDEDIT There is no downtime with a Dedicated Wright. There's only UMD checks. Gold becomes a non-issue with Legendary Artisan feats, and being able to sell to the other party members and STILL make money...or sell to NPC's (as full-price commissioned items, not loot). The power of this build is that he doesn't have to bring the big nasty. With two rounds of preparation, a 12th level Artificer could fire off 3 Twinned Rays, and not even use a charge up! And there's no Wizard alive who can unload 50 Twinned Empowered Scorching Rays in only 25 rounds. Seriously, that Twinned Empowered Wand could conceivably last until the Artificer is level 20, if he just infuses it with Temporary Charges instead of draining it. And then he STILL has the option of draining it to fast fuel a killing barrage nothing can live thru. The key thing here is, does he expend more in GP value of charges killing something then he'd get in return? If not, then he should maximize charge usage with Temporary Charges and one charge/rd. If so, then take it down and show your power! Considering that 2-5 charges is going to hose just about anything under a CR15, that shouldn't be that hard to do. ==Aelryinth
zambuka 08-16-05, 01:37 AM	The power of this build is that he doesn't have to bring the big nasty. With two rounds of preparation, a 12th level Artificer could fire off 3 Twinned Rays, and not even use a charge up! And there's no Wizard alive who can unload 50 Twinned Empowered Scorching Rays in only 25 rounds. ==Aelryinth How can he do this? I am not sure of the twinning process you are referring to but I am guessing it is a metamagic feat from one of the splat books. For a start scorching ray is a 2nd level spell. It does not appear in the artificer's infusion list so if he wants to create it he needs to use the spell storing item infusion, this is limited to 4th level spells. To create this in under 1 minute he has to blow an action point (not a major issue but still uses an infusion), not only that but you are limited to a single spell at a time. If you are adding quickened, maximised or empowered you quickly get well beyond what a spell storing item can take. I'm lost as to actually how you manage to achieve the results you are claiming with core rules and RAW on the artificer from the ECS. As for the wand, without the downtime, and the GP cost for the Artisan feat you are still left with a pretty huge chunk of XP or craft reserve spent to create this wand initially. Temporary infusions? How? what am I missing there?
Crimsonsun 08-16-05, 03:35 AM	How can he do this? I am not sure of the twinning process you are referring to but I am guessing it is a metamagic feat from one of the splat books. Twin spell is from Complete Arcane For a start scorching ray is a 2nd level spell. It does not appear in the artificer's infusion list so if he wants to create it he needs to use the spell storing item infusion, this is limited to 4th level spells. To create this in under 1 minute he has to blow an action point (not a major issue but still uses an infusion), not only that but you are limited to a single spell at a time. If you are adding quickened, maximised or empowered you quickly get well beyond what a spell storing item can take. I'm lost as to actually how you manage to achieve the results you are claiming with core rules and RAW on the artificer from the ECS. He referring to wands made by the artificer. Also use of Metamagic spelltrigger, which allows you to use metamagic feats on a wand (or staff) by burning extra charges As for the wand, without the downtime, and the GP cost for the Artisan feat you are still left with a pretty huge chunk of XP or craft reserve spent to create this wand initially. Your party is almost bound to get magic items no one needs (how many +1 longswords do you need?) and can use retain essence to "eat" the XP Temporary infusions? How? what am I missing there? There's an infusion which gives a wand (or stafff) temporary charges at an XP cost
camble 08-16-05, 07:15 AM	I belive what aelryinth is refering to is the cannith wand adept class from the city of towers source book or the double wand weilder feat from the complete arcane. both give the special ability of dual wand use meaning you can activate 2 wands as a full round action. now i have to admit that is pretty impressive but if he is taking the prestige class he is not a straight artificer but it is a natural exstension of the artificer probably the only real artificer prestigie class so far. I have to say it would be possible for a wizard to pretty much do the same thing using the feat and it is superior to the class ability since it only takes 2 from the designated seconary wand rather then the 1d4 charges for both wands. Weaknesses of this build to my mind are 1. The build may end up doing alot of other actions beside contributing in a fight such using infusions while the fight is going on. as a example your initial attack is ineffective such as the case of a foe who is resistant or immune to the attacks you where not aware of. You now have a dilema sheath one of the wands witch can not be combined with a regular move like drawing a weapon can and invokes attacks of oppurtunity or drop the wand to change your tactics not a nice choice. So yes he can be pretty nasty but not earth shattering. as the blastificer is deciding what he should do the other spellcaster simply casts a different spell he has memeroized or resorts to physical combat for beefy spellcasters like clerics. 2. Using the blastaficer to its fullest potential is a full round action that leaves the potential for the effect to be interrupted by the enemy. myself if i see a enemy artificer weilding two wands about ready to let me have it he would be pretty high on my smack down list just like any wizard casting a spell. except i sunder one of his wands, disarm him or even grapple the guy probably the worst of those 3 options but a loyal minion or even a mindless creature might be ordered to take one for the team so not that different from the tactics to take down any other spellcaster except it is potentially more exspensive for the blastificer. 3. Concentrating on this build may have good potential at mid levels but when the blastificer is high enough he can have access to staffs who have spell level limit and he has lost 3 class levels delaying access to this important resource as well as infusions. One thing i would like to point out to those people talking about using the power surge on the wands to mitigate the cost of duel wielding the wands it does but only by a small amount if you are using the duel wield ability at 20th level you get 4 extra charge that may be one use of one duel wielded wand. while the same charges could get you several higher level spells from a staff like disentegrate if you are focusing on a single target or cone of cold for multiple enemies or maybe prismatic spray. I guess with all of this i am saying that the artificer is a strong class but it has it weak points just like all the other classes and that the blastificer while it can be creatied and used with good results focusing on on a key strength of the class still has many of the same weaknesses of many a spell casters as well as a few of there own.
aelryinth 08-16-05, 07:32 AM	The standard power build for Blastificer is: Wand: Empowered Scorching Ray (cl9 or 6) or Elemental Orb Acid or Force) (CL 10 or 8/5 (Force maxes at 10hd)). Using Metamagic Item, infuse the Wand with Twin Spell (or Quicken, or Maximize, or Repeat, or Admixture, or...whatever). Now, for one charge, you have a Twinned Spell going off. With WAnd Adept levels, thats a 15d6 Elemental Orb, or a cheap 11th level 3 Sorching Rays. Using Metamagic Spell Trigger, you can burn 1-4 charges to use another Metamagic feat. The default is 1/rd use Quicken, so now you shoot TWO of these Twinned babies off. Cost, 2+1-4 charges. Using Power Surge, instead of burning charges you can burn some minor amount of XP and use up 'temporary' charges the same way. If you get more xp from killing something then you do burning it, this is extremely cost-efficent. This is the 'Blastificer' base build, and it gets worse if you allow Metamagic Item infusions to stack (Repeating, Twinned, Admixtured, Empowered Elemental Orbs). If you have CWA, you can save a great deal of money on Force Orb and Scorching Ray wands, since they have maximums and you have a +5 level towards that maximum. Even without them, Wand Mastery saves you coin. Sure, there are ways to get around this...it's an artillery platform, not much different then a mage with Sudden Quicken unloading his artillery. But at level 10, with CWA levels, you are throwing BASE 15HD Orbs and Forceballs from your little wand. And you can do it 50+ times if you are so inclined. That's a lot of power, if you give them just a couple rounds to prepare. It's also hell on the players if an enemy artificer is allowed to do the same. I expect the Cannith Wand Adepts are tremendously feared in the magical community. But if you get them in melee, the Blastificer doesn't work all that well. Of course, it could then turn out that you instead are dealing with a Buffificer, and are about to learn what Persistent Metamagic Item does with Wands of Divine Favor and the like. Owie. ==Aelryinth
zambuka 08-16-05, 10:20 AM	This is the 'Blastificer' base build, and it gets worse if you allow Metamagic Item infusions to stack (Repeating, Twinned, Admixtured, Empowered Elemental Orbs). I'm beginning to see now. Sure the artificer has this power, but you appear to be basing a large chunk of your judgement on a bunch of feats that are (in my opinion) broken before you start, or at least very poorly balanced and designed without something like the artificer in mind. Finally sat down and went through my books with the wand you presented. looks nice on paper, doable. But in play? This is one of those "overpowered" things, that when you really sit down and look, relies on far to many ifs to work. If the artificer has preperation time, if the rays all hit, if he has the right feats, if the wand has enough charges, if he has the right infusions prepared, if, if, if. I honestly do not see the artificer as being any more powerful than any other class, provided you stay away from splat books made without any thought to the artificer. A sorcorer is quite capable of, at level 10, getting 12 to 15 4th level spells using only what is in the core books, pretty powerful. A paladin with the right weapon and feat combo and smite evil can do quite a large amount of damage (easily approaching 100). Ray of enfeeblement is pretty powerful, combined with a quickened truestrike it gets quite devastating without doing any real damage. Throw in maximise and empower on the ray and nothing stays standing for long. This is doable by a mage without any extras, just the right combination of feats and spells. Even better when you make something like a staff with this combo and totally ludicrous when you go throwing in things like twin spell. In short, pretty much anything involving magic and metamagic feats can get ridiculous pretty quickly if you really want to look for it. You don't need the artificer for these "I win" combos, just time to pour over every little rule and combination (and an unwary DM).
camble 08-16-05, 02:55 PM	I would agree that the combo you mentioned is pretty sick but with the ecseption of twin spell cast on the wand a wizard or sorcerer could do the very same thing and who is to say a wizard couldn't make a spell to alter his wands like a artificer. I can here all the gasps in the crowd all ready :D besides a blastificer could easily be taken out of a fight by a wizard/sorcerer using otiluke's resilient sphere and he is traped until he pulls out a wand or other item that has dispell or makes it himself. or really tick him off use telekinesis and steal his wandy goodness :) you don't even have to resort to high level spells. any spell or special ability for that matter that can stun causes the recipiant to drop what is in hand. making the monk the bane of a blastificer. heck all those spells you named can be largely mitgated by placing down a obscuring mist and any pc that makes use of the tactics you are talking about constantly is sure to make a name for himself kind of like a western gun slinger and people should know what to expect of him heck that could be said for any wand weilding maniac. one other thing to think on a artificer also has to make a use magic device role every time he uses a wand.
Pax 08-16-05, 04:05 PM	Finally sat down and went through my books with the wand you presented. looks nice on paper, doable. But in play? This is one of those "overpowered" things, that when you really sit down and look, relies on far to many ifs to work. If the artificer has preperation time, if the rays all hit, if he has the right feats, if the wand has enough charges, if he has the right infusions prepared, if, if, if. I agree on all counts except the last one. Artificers are like Warmages: there's no "preparation" of infusions - they "cast" them spontaneously, and they know every infusiuon on their list, at all times.
makeshiftwings 08-16-05, 06:38 PM	I agree on all counts except the last one. Artificers are like Warmages: there's no "preparation" of infusions - they "cast" them spontaneously, and they know every infusiuon on their list, at all times. But the infusions mostly all have one-minute casting times, so you need to have them ready before the battle starts, unless you use Action Points.
Vharuck 08-16-05, 07:47 PM	Thanks for the replies.Well as i understand things the artificer doesnt have to use any XP because he can retain essence and augment his craft pool. So he can (and my guy will) make as much as he possibly can, whilst i can accept this and make encounters more challenging it just doesnt mesh with my view of Eberron being a low power magic setting as he could create all sorts of devastating stuff. Low power magic, yes. That doesn't mean that it has little magic. Eberron is rife with magic items, many common ones being too powerful for a level 6 artificer to even think of making. It doesn't have a +5 Vorpal sword in every major town *cough cough FR cough cough*, but Everbright Lanterns dot the streets and fountains in nice neighborhoods produce a nice magical smell.
aelryinth 08-16-05, 08:29 PM	Artificers are well known for using Spell Storing Item for little suprises (in the City of Towers, Keith's Cannith Arti lady habitually stores a Dim Door in her glove.) Keep in mind when you are talking about Spell Capability of 4th level spells that I am talking about a level TEN character. Yes, that's right. 10th level. Can your Tenth Level Character toss out Twinned 15d6 Acid Orbs? To a mage or sorc, that's an 8th level spell (Twin is +4 levels) No? How about Maximized?...nope, 7th level spell. Can he do it without burning spells for the day, just some xp? No? As for time, actually a lot of infusions are one round actions, and you can spend action points to take a one minute infusion down to one round. As we all know, preparation is everything. Giving characters a chance to buff is giving them a chance to really bring the power. The artificer RULES when given a chance to buff. Two Wands of Elemental Orb With Twin Spell, Dual Wielded, and Quickened once each. 120d6 base dmg in one round, no save, no SR, change the Elemental to Max dmg out (cold against Fire, or just default Acid, etc). 420 base dmg, if your Touch attacks hit. Kiss the Dragon good bye and start pillaging the hoard. It only cost you ~15 charges and some xp. At level TEN. Match that, Wizard! ==Aelryinth
Pax 08-17-05, 12:48 AM	Kiss the Dragon good bye and start pillaging the hoard. It only cost you ~15 charges and some xp. In Eberron, the PC's should NEVER be going out to kill dragons and pillage their hoards. The Dragons are the next things to GODS ...
camble 08-17-05, 03:01 AM	and the dragon says ow my i think my breath weapon should go here since your wands start shooting at the end of the round. I agree the metamagic infusion is broken. It is a cool idea but there needs to be a set level limit allowing it to scale up but still keep it reasonable. Um how is your wand twining and being quickened at the same time they are both +4 enhancements. I would certainly understand a 3rd level enhancement in the wand and then the infusion but not casting 2 infusions on the same wand. That would be like casting 2 bull strengths and expecting them to stack.
aelryinth 08-17-05, 03:07 AM	As with all things that allow someone to break the Metacap. :P Keep in mind the Artificer has range on the Dragon's Breath Weapon with his wands, and it all comes down to Initiative as to who gets the salvo off first. ==Aelryinth
camble 08-17-05, 03:12 AM	no it doesn't because you can do one quickened spell per round so one goes off then the special ability duel wield takes effect at witch point that is a full round action that is assuming the dm allows you to use the ability from the wand again since it is quickened i know i allow it in my games but i have seen dms run it by the strickets wording of the feat
Pinky's brain 08-17-05, 03:21 AM	You are right, he can only do 3 twinned 15d6 touch attacks ... still going to kill anything upto old dragons easily in one shot. Metamagic spell trigger uses quicken as an example for it's use, so it's use is pretty safe from a rules point of view.
camble 08-17-05, 04:17 AM	i see using the twin spell as a infusion on the wand and then the metamagic spell trigger for the quickened feat that would work. and would use the least charges. i would agree that is sick but i think the idea is still sound it just needs to be properly adjusted so the artificer cant cast spells that are effectively 12th level. I would like to point out that i don't think that the orb spells are any where near balanced anyways besides totally stealing the evocations claim to fame.
camble 08-17-05, 04:54 AM	To make the metamagic item infusion more reasonable how about making the following changes 1 spell level per 5 levels of the artificer to a maximum of 4 at 20th level and make it until used or 1 round per level witch ever comes first. preventing the artificer from getting insane uses out of those wands. I would also suggest that the this infusion and the metamagic spell trigger be mutually exclusive the artificer can use one or the other but not both. Allowing the artificer flexability with what i would consider one of his main abilities but still keeping things some what under control.
aelryinth 08-17-05, 06:57 AM	I'm also splotching the damage a little bit with Scorching Ray. The Empowered Ray is 3 Rays at 4d6 per, or 12d6 of rays, Empowered for 18d6. TWin works on the base, so you'd get another 12d6 worth of rays, for 30d6. Effectively, you get the same damage as the Elemental Orbs, but you have to deal with SR. But, with CWA, you can make a CL6 Wand and get this effect, instead of a CL10 Elemental Orb. You also have the flexibility of multiple targets. Your best Mook clearing device is Forceball...better dmg and affects Incorporeals, doesn't have to worry about elemental resistance. However, you can tailor a Fireball to an Elemental Vulnerability, and get max usage out of it at CL5...Forceball ramps up, so you'd need a CL10 to max the effect. Significant cost savings. I think about this stuff too much. And I agree on the elemental orbs, to the effect that they should be evocation spells and not conjuration. That's just wrong how conjuration has effectively better individual direct dmg then Evocation does. ==Aelryinth
Pax 08-17-05, 10:45 AM	Say, Camble - just a thought, but ... you do realise that Full Round Actions are still "instant gratification", right? Thus, something that takes a FRA doesn't happen "at the end of the round" ...
camble 08-17-05, 12:37 PM	you are currect i was thinking 1 full round rather then a full round action. my apologies. I can see the abuses are definately there and if my players starts mucking about like that i think i will have to demonstrate how much of a paper tiger this class is :) I think i will make the adjustments i mentioned on the previous post to how the infusion works i might even be nice and let it last min rather then rounds since it will only go off once
camble 08-17-05, 01:09 PM	I was doing some number crunching and the 10th level wand you are talking about costs 15,000 gp and 1200xp each that is a pretty good chunk of cash even for a 10th level artificer. and that is only 2 items for attack not mentioning if he wants to have items to defend himself or utility stuff. it would take 14th level before he could build one of them and not take a xp hit and that was his hole craft reserve. he could use retain essence but then he is throwing away money. I may have to experiment a little to see what makes a good fit for my current game ;)
Chiyo 08-17-05, 02:09 PM	I think a lot of things even out in the end. Sure my artificer 7 is wearing full +3 gear where the rest of the group barely has a couple of +2 items but on the other hand, he's weak in melee due to spreading of stats, he depletes resources via wands a lot to cast spells that other casters can do for free in a replenishable fashion every day. The operational costs of an artificer are among the worst of all classes in the game because without using magical devices and improving yourself thru gear, you can't do a lot. As far as inflating the power level of the group, after getting retain essence, this is an issue. A magic item can be sold for half its value or retained for all its XP. With artisan feats (post-errata for sanity), that craft reserve XP is gonna be enough to make more than what you retained. Pre-artisan feats, it's a zero sum game. Take a 1000 gp that nobody will use in group. Either sell it for 500 gp and buy another item for 1000 gp (net is 500 gp expense and 0 XP) or retain 40 XP and spend that and half of 1000 gp on another item worth 1000 gp (net 500 gp and 0 XP). Of course, you can sell the item for 500 gp and spend the 40 XP (net 0 gp, -40 XP). With artisan feats, it's a bit more in favor of crafting since you can lower gold and XP costs by 25%. But it's still not a free lunch. And all that takes time. Time is really a big controlling factor. I think in most games you can press players for time flexibly. If you're ok with artificer crafting for herself but not equip the party on the cheap, just give her barely enough to make her own gear then the player will prioritize and only make their own gear. If you want to control gear supplies, disallow class- and alignment restrictions (p. 292 DMG). That 30% savings in the hands of a crafty artisan artificer can really add up. Effectively, between that and artisan feat, gold costs can get to 26.25% of base price and 52.5% of regular XP costs associated. It's legit by RAW but could be too good for your campaign if cash flow is a bit too abundant. Of course, you could simply lower treasure amounts to keep that in control but the problem is that it'll penalize everyone equally. So there'll always be a differential between gear level of artificer-made items and level-appropriate treasure. You can go around that by making it so that treasure found are almost always useful to the group. If they're all decked in +1 gear, don't make them find any more of those. Introduce few +2 and the like gear of the type that others in the group won't pass up. That way, there'll be less to sell/retain essence of and less supplies for artificer while everyone else is ramping up in gear as you intend to. One of the overpowered aspects might be the metamagic item infusion but it's not that different from incantatrix style and more limited. You also control which metamagic feats are allowed. Don't want twinning or admixing. Rule them out and blastificer can be much simpler for you to challenge. Don't want persistent buffed artificer. Disallow persistent spell. Those changes have very limited impact on anyone else in the campaign. Just watch that you leave the artificer enough wiggle room to make it fun for him/her. Finally, talk to your artificer. My DM straight up told me he was getting uncomfortable having me throw twinned quickened scorching rays (32d6) all the time so he suggested I don't pick quicken spell feat at 8. So instead I'm gonna pick energy substitution (acid) to be more versatile with metamagic spell trigger.
DoveArrow 08-17-05, 11:24 PM	Here is the Artificer/Cannith Wand Adept in its full glory, I think. Take a look and see if it's right now: Bogus: Human Artificer 7/Cannith Wand Adept 3; CR 10; Medium humanoid; HD 7d6 plus 3d8; hp 35; Init +2 [[+2 Dex]]; Spd 30 ft.; AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +7 [[+5 Artificer, +2 Wand Adept]]; Grp +8 [[+7 Base Atk, +1 Str]]; Atk +9 melee [[+7 Base Atk, +1 Str, +1 masterwork weapon]] (1d6+1, masterwork rapier); Full Atk +9/+4 melee [[+7/+2 Base Atk, +1 Str, +1 masterwork weapon]]; SA dual wand use, infusions, metamagic spell trigger, wand quick draw; SQ dragonmark abilities; AL NG; SV Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +7; Str 12, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16. Skills and Feats: [[85 ranks]] Concentration +12 [[12, +0 Con]], Disable Device +14 [[12, +2 Int]], Knowledge (arcana) +14 [[12, +2 Int]], Listen +1 [[2, -1 Wis]], Open Lock +14 [[12, +2 Dex]], Search +8 [[6, +2 Int]], Spellcraft +16 [[12, +2 Int, +2 Magical Aptitude]], Spot +5 [[6, -1 Wis]], Use Magic Device +18 [[12, +3 Cha, +3 Skill Focus]]; Brew Potion*, Craft Wondrous Item*, Craft Magic Arms and Armor*, Craft Wand*, Empower Spell, Least Mark of Making**, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll*, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)*, Wand Mastery. Possessions: +1 chainmail, 2 6th level maximized wands of scorching ray (50 charges), masterwork rapier. Infusions Per Day (4/4/2 DC 12 + infusion level) *Artificer Bonus Feats **The Cannith Wand Adept prestige class allows Bogus to use the abilities of his least dragonmark an additional time per day. Tactics: Bogus has the wand quick draw ability and spends the first two rounds infusing his empowered wands of scorching ray with the metamagic item infusion. Bogus decides to infuse his wands with his Quicken Spell Metamagic Feat. On the third round, Bogus draws both wands and uses his metamagic spell trigger ability to empower them and casts from both of them as a full round action. Method: Because Bogus has the feat Wand Mastery and the Wand Focus ability, he can cast scorching ray from his wand as if he were an 11th level caster, allowing him to use three rays total per wand. Expending 3 charges to empower the spell, Bogus gets an additional ray per wand, bringing the total number of rays up to four each. Bogus then uses a full round action and expends 1d4 charges per wand to fire eight rays (four from each wand) in total. In a single round, Bogus expends 4-8 charges from both wands. Damage Results: Quickened/Empowered Scorching Ray: 192 [4d6 per ray maxed x 4 rays x 2 wands x 2 castings [Quicken Spell]) + (2d6 [Empower Spell] x 4 rays x 2 wands) = 416 - 576 points of damage Weaknesses: It takes one round to infuse an item with the Metamagic item infusion. This means that if Bogus is attacked between rounds, he has the potential of losing one or both of the infusions. Also, Bogus only has 35 hit points. If attacked by a spellcaster or a group of melee fighters Bogus might go down before firing a single shot. This is important because spellcasters with the Spellcraft skill might be able to determine what Bogus's tactics are before he uses his wands to full effect. Note: I don't think this proves that artificers are broken. I think it proves only that artificers with levels in cannith wand adept are broken.
camble 08-18-05, 04:04 AM	Dovearrow if i may ask why would the artificer create the wands at 11th level. or is that the effective level after adding his enhancements. it would be much cheaper to make the wands at say 6th and use his 5 effective levels to gain the remaining ray effect since it is other wise going to waste on that spell.
aelryinth 08-18-05, 07:06 AM	I don't quite know how we arrived at roughly the same numbers (Aelrynth's figuring is mostly wrong and confuses the heck out of me), but here's the artificer/cannith wand adept that we've been describing: Bogus: Human Artificer 7/Cannith Wand Adept 3; CR 10; Medium humanoid; HD 7d6 plus 3d8; hp 35; Init +2 [[+2 Dex]]; Spd 30 ft.; AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +7 [[+5 Artificer, +2 Wand Adept]]; Grp +8 [[+7 Base Atk, +1 Str]]; Atk +9 melee [[+7 Base Atk, +1 Str, +1 masterwork weapon]] (1d6+1, masterwork rapier); Full Atk +9/+4 melee [[+7/+2 Base Atk, +1 Str, +1 masterwork weapon]]; SA dual wand use, infusions, metamagic spell trigger, wand quick draw; SQ dragonmark abilities; AL NG; SV Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +7; Str 12, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16. Skills and Feats: [[85 ranks]] Concentration +12 [[12, +0 Con]], Disable Device +14 [[12, +2 Int]], Knowledge (arcana) +14 [[12, +2 Int]], Listen +1 [[2, -1 Wis]], Open Lock +14 [[12, +2 Dex]], Search +8 [[6, +2 Int]], Spellcraft +16 [[12, +2 Int, +2 Magical Aptitude]], Spot +5 [[6, -1 Wis]], Use Magic Device +18 [[12, +3 Cha, +3 Skill Focus]]; Brew Potion*, Craft Wondrous Item*, Craft Magic Arms and Armor*, Craft Wand*, Empower Spell, Least Mark of Making**, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll*, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)*, Wand Mastery. Possessions: +1 chainmail, 2 11th level wands of scorching ray (50 charges), masterwork rapier. Infusions Per Day (4/4/2 DC 12 + infusion level) *Artificer Bonus Feats **The Cannith Wand Adept prestige class allows Bogus to use the abilities of his least dragonmark an additional time per day. Tactics: Bogus has the wand quick draw ability and spends the first two rounds infusing his wands of scorching ray with the metamagic item infusion. In order to deal maximum damage, Bogus decides to infuse his wands with his Maximize Spell Metamagic Feat. On the third round, Bogus draws both wands and uses his metamagic spell trigger ability to empower them. The action expends 3 charges from both wands. Using a full round action to cast from both wands, Bogus expends an additional 1d4 charges from both wands. If all rays hit, Bogus deals an incredible 216 points of damage in a single round. Here's the math: Maximized/Empowered Scorching Ray: 24 (4d6 maximized) x 1.5 dmg (Empower Spell) x 3 rays x 2 wands = 216 points of damage Weaknesses: It takes one round to infuse an item with the Metamagic item infusion. This means that if Bogus is attacked between rounds, he has the potential of losing one or both of the infusions. Also, Bogus only has 35 hit points. If attacked by a spellcaster or a group of melee fighters Bogus might go down before firing a single shot. This is important because spellcasters with the Spellcraft skill might be able to determine what Bogus's tactics are before he uses his wands to full effect. Note: You can actually create Bogus at 9th level if you want to. The reason for this is that Aelrynth threw in a third level of Cannith Wand Adept that wasn't necessary. Um, this is flat out WRONG for damage. And inefficent to boot! Very nice stat block...I would also throw in a UMD competence item with a minimum of +10 to your UMD rolls. Bogus uses all Wands at +5 levels. Therefore, he needs only a 6th level Wand of Scorching Ray to maximize his damage with Scorching Ray, thus saving him a substantial amount of dough. Metamagic feats affect only the base spell when damage is concerned. Therefore, this wand, in Bogus' hands, does not do 108 dmg (doubled for two wands to 216). With Metamagic Infusion to Maximize it, this wand does 3 rays at 4d6 each (Maximized) + 50% of 3 x 4d6 (Empowered) [which effectively is 3 x 2d6]. In other words, 3 rays at 24 +2d6, for an average of 31 pts per ray, or 93 damage, doubled to 186 with Dual Wield. He would be FAR better off merely Quickening the Wand with his metamagic infusion instead of Maximizing it. Then he would effectively get 3 rays at 4d6+2d6 each, Twice a round, for 36d6 of damage, which works out to 126 per wand, doubled for 252 damage. Note also you can't make a wand higher then caster level 10. Bogus can pull the 'best possible Scorching Ray damage trick' off with a Wand made at Caster level 6. Another thing, you have to burn the Metamagic Spell Trigger each time you trigger the wand. Ouch! You are piling on charges once you add Quicken to the Mix. Now, you are assuming you are using BASE Scorching Ray wands, not Empowered Scorching Ray. The difference here is up front cost of making the Wand against the burning of charges for lesser damage. Quickening a Wand so you can cast the spell twice is implicitly better then Maximizing it for the same cost. I.e. 10d6 dmg x 2 = ~70 dmg. Maximized 10d6 is 60. Holds true with ALL spells. ------------------------- CHIYO - don't grab Energy Substitution!!! There's an Artificer infusion that allows you to change the Energy type of the Item you are using. Since you are going to use Metamagic Item to Energy Substitute, you are in effect, burning a precious feat to use an infusion for lesser effect then using an infusion you already have access to! (If you are doing it to have access to Admixture, that's a different story). ------------------------- Lastly, WATCH YOUR ARTISAN FEATS. These suckers DO NOT play off one another! They operate only on the base price of the wand, and they DO NOT STACK. Consider a Wand of Doodle. Cost is 10k. To Make the Wand would cost 5000 gp, 1/25th of that in xp (200xp) and 5 days (1 day/1000 xp). The Artisan feats knock 25% of the BASE numbers. So, your cost would be 75% of 5000 gp, or 3750. Your XP cost would be 75% of 200 xp, or 150 xp. No, you don't get to refigure xp based on the 'new' 3750 cost, and take 75% of that. Your time is 75% of 5 days, or 3.75 days, rounded up to 4. No, you don't get to take 75% of the 'new' price of 3750 and churn this sucker out in 56.25% of the normal time. These feats all work off the base pricing, they do not work off of each other. ===================== Cost of the Wands. Wands are priced at 375 gp x Caster level x spell Level. Artificers with CWA get huge breaks on pricing because they get the effect boost of +5 Wand Mastery. Scorching Rays top out at caster level 11 for damage. Fireballs and Lightning Bolts top out at 10th. Force Orbs top out at 10th. Forceballs and Elemental Orbs top out at 15. So, for the 2nd level spell Scorching Ray, we basically want a Wand casting at 6th level, which lets us hit 11th level with our +5 bonus for the damage cap. 375gp x 2nd level x CL6. 4500 base price, 2250 cost, 2.25 days, 90 xp. (Multiply the numbers bolded by .75 if you have the appropriate Artisan feats.) EMPOWERED Scorching Ray. 375 x 4th level x CL 7th. 10,500 base price. Cost 5250, xp 210, 5.25 days to make. (EDITED TO 7th Caster Level) Fireballs/Lightning bolts are in the SRD/DMG. You only want a level 5 wand, since with +5 you top out with a 10d6 fireball/bolt. 375 x 5 x 3 = 5625 to buy. 2813 gp, 2.8 days, 113 xp. Force ORb: You only want a CL 7 Wand, since it tops out at 10d6. 375 x cl7 x 4th level spell = 10,500 gp. 5250 to make, 5.25 days, and 210 xp. (Edited to 7th CL per Cost minimums). Elemental Orb/Forceball: These are your heavy hitters, one for direct dmg with no save and no SR, and the other for Mook clearage, saves and SR. 375 x CL10 x 4th level = 15000 price. Cost, 7500. 7.5 days, and 300 xp. BUT...at level 10 you are spending a charge to shoot out a 15th level effect. You can Empower this, Maximize this, Quicken this...and if you want to get silly, you can Dual Wield this for desperate measures. ======================== Note that the way the CWA is set up, Dual-Wielding costs effectively the same amount as Metamagic Spell Triggering a Wand with Quicken (+1-4 charges per use is 2.5...so using a wand 'twice a round' is 5 charges on average, while Quicken with Metamagic Spell trigger is only 4!). Quicken is the best of the spells, because unlike all the others, it stacks on top of them...you get all the OTHER effects Twice. YOu can't maximize an Empower...You can't Repeat a Twin....you can't Admixture a Maximize. Damage effects work off the base spell. Quicken, however, includes EVERYTHING. A Twinned Empowered Scorching Ray is Empower + Scorching Ray +the Twinned Scorching Ray...the Empower is NOT Twinned. Dmg is effectively Scorching ray x 2.5. A QUickened Empowered Scorching Ray is 2 Empowered Scorching Rays! Dmg is effectively x 3! ===================== Efficent Charge usage We've already determined that Quicken is the single best Metamagic INfusion to put into a wand for dmg per round...but Quicken forces us to use a second charge. By CHARGE, what we want is a metamagic effect that directly affects damage. The best of these are the feats that directly add on damage. Twin is the best of these, since it works on all spells, and is not dependent on damage type to function. IT directly doubles your damage Per Charge. Next comes Admixture...it also doubles your damage, but it is restricted to spells doing Elemental damage. Then comes Repeat Spell...sort of a Twin that goes off a round later. Ehhhh. Then we go down to Maximize, and lastly Empower. Neither is an effective doubling, although a Double Empower is effectively the same as a Twin Spell (but would cost you a second feat, and so is Feat Inefficent, too) The Main reason you take Empower is so you can maximize the damage per charge of your lower-level wands. It's cheap at +2 spell levels, and can be put on Wand spells while staying at the 4th level and below limit. You now do 50% more damage per charge with your wand. Sure, the Magic missile wand tripled in price, and the Scorching Ray doubled...so what? We are talking damage per charge, not cost per charge. An Empowered Scorching Ray does better direct damage to any creature then any other 4th level spell in the game. Maximize is only useful if you are not allowed one of the better damage dealing enhancements above, preferably Twin (since Twin can be used with ANY spell, it is very useful). If you are basically restricted to Core feats, Maximize is it. Otherwise, you probably don't even want to take the feat! Quicken is almost mandatory. It can be applied on the fly with Metamagic Spell trigger to double your wand damage in any given round as needed. It works with all sorts of spells, not just direct damage, so if you want a Quickened Wand of Dispel Magic, go right ahead! However, quicken works via Metamagic Spell Trigger by burning more charges. The damage infusions work by upping damage PER charge...which equals fewer charges needed, which equals cost savings. QUicken is basically your back up machine gun of death and doom. Dual Wield works like Quicken...except moreso. It costs you extra charges each and every time you activate your wands, sucking away at them with horrible speed in order to bring the power. Generally, because it's a full round action, you are better off using Quickened wands via Metamagic Spell Trigger then Dual-Wielding Wands, and Dual Wielding Quickened wands means 4 discharges a round...at +1-4 charges per activation! This can get EXTREMELY inefficent on charges! If you really, really want to unload your two Twinned-infused Elemental Orb Wands with Quicken Metamagic Spell Trigger, you are looking at 4 charges for the base Twinned Orbs, +4 charges for EACH Quicken (8), +1-4 charges for each of 4 activations for Dual-Wielding. Congratulations, you just blew an average of 22 charges out the door. You had better be able to do a considerable amount of damage by dint of dumping this many charges in mere seconds! Being able to grant temporary charges to your wands will extend their lives at the cost of your xp. This is not a bad thing. Generally, you will make far more xp Powering up your wands and letting loose with them then you will lose to the effect, and will let you keep your charge reserve high just in case you do need to unload both barrels in desperation. It also means you can focus your time and gold for item creation on other objects, diversifying your other magical reserves. IN short...when using wands.. 1) build metamagic in to maximize the damage per charge if at all possible. 2) Take advantage of your Wand Mastery (and CWA levels) to make cheaper wands and save yourself some cash. 3) Apply damage enhancements directly as Metamagic Infusions first, maximizing your damage per charge. 4) Strongly consider using temporary charges to extend the life of your wand and conserve wand charges. 5) Quicken is the best spell to use for Metamagic spell trigger if you want to maximize damage. And if you want to maximize damage, the extra charges won't be a problem. Because the Quickened spell duplicates ALL effects of the wand, it is better per charge then any other feat. 6) save dual wielding for true emergency situations, when it's time to blow the hell out of the enemy or die trying. But when you bring it, bring it like you mean it. Otherwise, Metamagic Spell Trigger (Quicken) is more effective and flexible. Smashing 8 15d6 Elemental Orbs into a charging red dragon is very likely to ruin its day if needed, however. 7) If your Dm is concerned about the power of Dual Wield, Quicken, and Twin in Synergy, restricting yourself to Core Feats is not a bad thing for campaign balance. You can also restrict Quicken to only one wand a round, not allow Elemental Orbs so that SR is always a problem, and keep out Twin so the damage cap is based on Empower and Maximize. Going from an Empowered Twinned Elemental Orb with Quickened Dual Wielding down to an Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray with One Quickened Dual Wield cuts your potential damage in half, while keeping the number of charges burned almost the same, and creatures with high SR will ignore much of the damage unless you keep your wands at the highest caster level (and the highest price). 9) You only have so many infusions a day. Bogus can only use Metamagic Item twice a day with the above build...so save your charges until they are needed, and make best use of them. Phew! Math math math. ===Aelryinth
DoveArrow 08-18-05, 10:52 AM	Um, this is flat out WRONG for damage. And inefficent to boot! I said the same thing about yours. Bogus uses all Wands at +5 levels. Therefore, he needs only a 6th level Wand of Scorching Ray to maximize his damage with Scorching Ray, thus saving him a substantial amount of dough. How do you figure? Metamagic feats affect only the base spell when damage is concerned. Therefore, this wand, in Bogus' hands, does not do 108 dmg (doubled for two wands to 216). With Metamagic Infusion to Maximize it, this wand does 3 rays at 4d6 each (Maximized) + 50% of 3 x 4d6 (Empowered) [which effectively is 3 x 2d6]. You've read the feat wrong. Read it again. In the example for magic missile it says "roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1 1/2 for each missile). In other words, it's not 6d6, it's the result of rolling 4d6 multiplied by 1.5. In this case, it makes no difference because the spell has been maximized, but when you're rolling average damage, for example, it makes a difference of about three points of damage. He would be FAR better off merely Quickening the Wand with his metamagic infusion instead of Maximizing it. Then he would effectively get 3 rays at 4d6+2d6 each, Twice a round, for 36d6 of damage, which works out to 126 per wand, doubled for 252 damage. You're right. My bad. He could get his two rays plus two more as a free action. Note also you can't make a wand higher then caster level 10. Bogus can pull the 'best possible Scorching Ray damage trick' off with a Wand made at Caster level 6. I didn't look up wand creation and got it confused with scrolls. I was also trying to figure out how you got four rays out of your wands, and thought maybe you didn't realize it capped. Now that I see you quickened the wand, it makes sense. Another thing, you have to burn the Metamagic Spell Trigger each time you trigger the wand. Ouch! You are piling on charges once you add Quicken to the Mix. It's the only way I see that you can do it without infusing metamagic item on the wand more than one time. Now, you are assuming you are using BASE Scorching Ray wands, not Empowered Scorching Ray. I tried to look this one up in the ECS, the DMG and the CoT, but I couldn't figure out where you found it. Of course, I can't find a thing in the ECS when it comes to magic items, so that could be my problem. Do you have a page reference? The difference here is up front cost of making the Wand against the burning of charges for lesser damage. Quickening a Wand so you can cast the spell twice is implicitly better then Maximizing it for the same cost. I.e. 10d6 dmg x 2 = ~70 dmg. Maximized 10d6 is 60. Holds true with ALL spells. I always figure 1/2, instead of 3/4 for average damage. It gets me into trouble sometimes.
DoveArrow 08-18-05, 12:01 PM	Dovearrow if i may ask why would the artificer create the wands at 11th level. or is that the effective level after adding his enhancements. it would be much cheaper to make the wands at say 6th and use his 5 effective levels to gain the remaining ray effect since it is other wise going to waste on that spell. I screwed up on the wands. I've also never played an artificer past 1st level and I've never seen anyone play one. I wrote this up last night after looking through the books for four hours and I must have missed something because I can't figure out where you and Aelrynth are getting the five effective character levels.
Brastan 08-18-05, 01:51 PM	Okay, a blaster Artificer is not scary at all. I've seen much worse come out of min/maxed barbarians as a full round action. In going to the original posters thoughts on overpowered is the artificers ability to make items overpowered. No, time and money can be very had to come by especially at the lower levels were custom made items are more useful. In my experience it's very difficult to get an adventuring party to stop and wait while an item crafter makes even one scroll let alone the sickest of damaging wand combos. If your looking at high-levels (12+) your not getting the same game. Anything that reaches high-levels is going to appear broken. Correctly managed a party of 12th level characters can kill multiple creatures four to five CR higher then them in one or two rounds of combat and not take a lick of damage or be seriously depleted. For the blaster, that's a good number of feats your burring for a combat only application. I could see were Twin Spell could be help full with a wand of cure wounds. The blaster is the most extreme build for an Artificer most of the time they run like clerics or bards. They hide in the back and make everyone else better. A blaster artificer is like a melee bard, it got sick of everyone thinking they weren't doing anything.
camble 08-18-05, 02:19 PM	The cannith wand adept gives you +1 to your wands level for each level of the class and you have to take wand mastery witch is another +2 for a total of 5 levels you don't have to pay for on the wand. Thinking about it a wand master could make a wand of shocking grasp for what 375 gp and 30 xp and still do 5d6 for every touch attack. he could make 2 so he could duel wield them and have a nice cattleprod welcome to any one that wanted to mess with him up close and personal. On the plus side for the artificer it is not expensive in resources like the other wands.
DoveArrow 08-18-05, 02:46 PM	The cannith wand adept gives you +1 to your wands level for each level of the class and you have to take wand mastery witch is another +2 for a total of 5 levels you don't have to pay for on the wand. Thinking about it a wand master could make a wand of shocking grasp for what 375 gp and 30 xp and still do 5d6 for every touch attack. he could make 2 so he could duel wield them and have a nice cattleprod welcome to any one that wanted to mess with him up close and personal. On the plus side for the artificer it is not expensive in resources like the other wands. Ahh. Okay, I think I understand now. However, I think you're reading the feat and the ability wrong. If I read them correctly (and I'll have to go back and check), they're adding to the DC of the spell for overcoming spell resistance and saving throws. I don't think it's adding to the caster level. I'll look it up. Edit: Holy cow! I have since looked up the feat wand mastery. I'm sorry, but that is broken. It's one thing to increase the DC of a spell for purposes of overcoming spell resistance and saving throws, but it's something else entirely to increase the caster level of the spell.
Pax 08-18-05, 03:06 PM	Bogus uses all Wands at +5 levels. Therefore, he needs only a 6th level Wand of Scorching Ray to maximize his damage with Scorching Ray, thus saving him a substantial amount of dough. How do you figure? The feat Wan Mastery gives +2 effective caster levels to wands you wield. The prestige class Cannith Wand Adept adds it's class level (it has 3 levels) to the effective caster levels of all wands you wield. And yes, it explicitly, in as many words, states that it stacks with the benefit of Wand Mastery (which is a prerequisite for the class, anyway). In both cases, this increase in caster level affects all aspects of the wand's spell - range, duration, number of rays ... everything. So a thir-level Cannith Wand Aept gets +5 caster levels - so their Wand of Scorching Ray (CL:6) works as well as anyone else's Wand of Scorching Ray (CL:11). In all ways. You've read the feat wrong. Read it again. In the example for magic missile it says "roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1 1/2 for each missile). In other words, it's not 6d6, it's the result of rolling 4d6 multiplied by 1.5. In this case, it makes no difference because the spell has been maximized, but when you're rolling average damage, for example, it makes a difference of about three points of damage. While he may have expressed it badly, aelrynth's math is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. This is because metamagics do not stack - all metamagics work on the BASE spell. So an empowered, Maximised Scorching Ray does 50% of a roll of 4d6, plus 24hp. It does not deal a guaranteed 36hp. The average damage on 4d6 is ( 4 x 3.5 = ) 14hp; Half of this is 7hp. That is what you should assume for the result of an Empower metamagic applied to a Scorching Ray - an average gain of +7hp. Ergo, a Maximised+Empowered Scorching Ray will deal ~31hp of damage. I always figure 1/2, instead of 3/4 for average damage. It gets me into trouble sometimes. True mean average for any single ie is 1/2 the maximum, plus 0.5 - thus, for 16, the average result over time will be 3.5; this is why a roll of 10d6 comes out to 35 on average, and two such rolls will average 70.
camble 08-18-05, 03:30 PM	both the class and the feat ups the DC save of the wand as well so the wand of cattleprod :) would be a DC of 16 not a bad save while a 2nd level wand would be 18, 3rd 19 and 4th 21. That is a pretty nasty save progression. I think the cannith wand adept is never going to see the light of day in my game with out at least some reworking. Since it seems to be the prestige class causing the biggest balance problems
thebassu 08-18-05, 03:52 PM	In what book would I find the specs for the Canith Wand Adept? Can someone tell me what its' prerequisits are?
Salla 08-18-05, 04:05 PM	Dedicated Wright. Set him to work building your big ticket items, and then go on and keep adventuring while he's busy. A portable hole means you can put an entire workshop in there, throw him in the hole, and have him work on your gear while you carry him around in your pocket. They still have to actually wait for the item to get made, but they can do other things while they're at it. Hmm. I was going to take the 4th level WF Artificer substitution level for Tools of War (self-repair when I infuse myself, 2:1 Craft Reserve points for weapons and armor), but since you mention that ... I'll see if the DM will actually give us any downtime before we get to 4th level; if not, I'm *definitely* going to make a Lab In A Bag(tm).
camble 08-18-05, 04:05 PM	sharn city of towers page 162. The prereq are spellcraft 6, use magic device 8 feats craft wand, wand mastery, favored in house or least dragon mark
Save-vs-DM 08-18-05, 04:08 PM	Bassu Cannith Wand Adept is in Sharn: City of Towers. The prerequisites for Wand Mastery (That's in Eberron Core Book) is Craft Wand and Caster Level 9th (bold mine). I want to point this out - you CANNOT take Wand Mastery until level nine, even as an artificer. Remember that they are considered to be a spellcaster 2 levels higher ONLY for the purposes of meeting item prerequisites....not for feats. So the earliest you can take Cannith Wand Adept is level 9. Sorry folks, but Bogus up there needs to be at least a 9th level artificer. Cheers, Save vs DM
Chiyo 08-18-05, 04:20 PM	------------------------- CHIYO - don't grab Energy Substitution!!! There's an Artificer infusion that allows you to change the Energy type of the Item you are using. Since you are going to use Metamagic Item to Energy Substitute, you are in effect, burning a precious feat to use an infusion for lesser effect then using an infusion you already have access to! (If you are doing it to have access to Admixture, that's a different story). ------------------------- Thanks for the tip. I didn't consider that. It's true that I practically no longer use my first level infusions so I might be better off with the energy alteration one rather than energy substitution feat. Hard to find metamagic feats that are useful yet not boosting my damage to much. Maybe sculpt spell but that's not so useful for single target spells. Otherwise empower, chain, maximize, quicken, etc ... would kick that up and get me in trouble again hehe. Lastly, WATCH YOUR ARTISAN FEATS. These suckers DO NOT play off one another! They operate only on the base price of the wand, and they DO NOT STACK. I meant that they stack with respect to applying both. To make an item, if you have both extraordinary and legendary artisan (my case), you get both a reduction in gold AND XP costs. You're essentially crafting items at 75% of their base price for cost calculations. And the other thing I meant was stacking is the 30% base price reduction from class-/alignment restrictions on crafted items. (p.292 DMG) With those: Gold cost = base price x 0.7 x 0.75 (extraordinary) x 0.5 =26.25% Base Price, XP cost = (Base Price/25) x 0.7 x 0.75 (legendary)= 52.5% Base XP cost. I agree that it'd be misreading the description to make the feat affect the base price instead of the crafting cost itself. [Edit: nm on CL of CWA]
DoveArrow 08-18-05, 04:32 PM	While he may have expressed it badly, aelrynth's math is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. This is because metamagics do not stack - all metamagics work on the BASE spell. So an empowered, Maximised Scorching Ray does 50% of a roll of 4d6, plus 24hp. It does not deal a guaranteed 36hp. It took me a minute, but I see what you're saying. A maximized, empowered scorching ray looks like this: 24 [4d6 maxed] + (4d6/2)
Pax 08-18-05, 06:30 PM	It took me a minute, but I see what you're saying. A maximized, empowered scorching ray looks like this: 24 [4d6 maxed] + (4d6/2) Exactly. ^_^
aelryinth 08-18-05, 08:14 PM	I made a simple error in figur9ing Wand costs above. A strict reading of Caster level for Item Creation allows an artificer to make wands as if he were two levels higher...but it doesn't save him any money. Example: The 6th level wand of Empowered Scorching Ray above. Normally, the Wand must be a minimum of 7th level to make. A 5th level Artificer could make the wand. however, the ability says that you use minimum caster level or Artficer level, whichever is higher. So even if you made a 5th (or 6th) level wand, you'd have to price it at 7th. Thus, the cost of A wand of Empowered Scorching Ray should be figured at CL7, and a Wand of Force Orb the same. I will go up and adjust the figures. ===Aelryinth
DoveArrow 08-18-05, 10:09 PM	All right, I think Bogus is ready for review.
Digital Demon 08-18-05, 10:19 PM	I am suprised no one came up with the easy way to take an arti out of the encounter. It's the same thing ya do to contain a Dervish :D Grapple & Sunder
camble 08-18-05, 10:33 PM	grapple may not work that well since the discription of a wand specificly says that it can be used while grappled but it also says that the wand has to be pointed in the general direction to work so i wonder if you would get into a effect similar to the fight in willow between the queen and her rival with spell blasts going every where. so i would say the only sure way to cut them off cold would be disarm, stun, or sunder.
aelryinth 08-18-05, 11:01 PM	And you play an Artficer like you do a mage...you avoid close combat if at all possible, and you keep really nasty touch attacks spell stored in a glove for when you are :). THe Cannith Wand Adept does not get any Artificer Progression, he does not get any magic item creation feats, and his abilities do not apply to any other magic items. he is limited to wands and level 4 spells. Something as simple as a Globe of Invulnerability and he simply cannot touch you. Taking CWA slows down on your infusions/day and other support functions as well. As for not getting down time in game...excuse me, but you have a craft reserve. You are supposed to be able to use it. If your DM is not letting you use it, then he best be letting it stack up and carry over between levels, or let you use it to fuel other class abilities...otherwise, it's just a total waste. A dedicated wright can finish up ANY magic item that you care to start...you need at most a single day of downtime to start any project. Save Vs Dm has a point on the Item Prerequisites. Unless Wand Mastery is considered an Item feat, you do need an Artificer 9 to get it, which means a CWA is a minimum of a 10th level character. In Eberron, a CWA/3 is going to be 12th level and feared and widely known, as is fitting for a character of that level. ==Aelryinth
aelryinth 08-18-05, 11:05 PM	All right, I think Bogus is ready for review. Since you have be level 9 to get Wand Mastery, a CWA/3 is a minimum of Artficer/9, CWA/3, or 12th level...not 10th. He also needs Favored In House or Least Dragonmark to qualify for CWA, and he gets a feat at level 12. Also, if you really want to put too much effort into his stack block, you've got to give him wands and other things made out of his Craft Reserve:) ==Aelryinth
aelryinth 08-18-05, 11:16 PM	Okay, a blaster Artificer is not scary at all. I've seen much worse come out of min/maxed barbarians as a full round action. In going to the original posters thoughts on overpowered is the artificers ability to make items overpowered. No, time and money can be very had to come by especially at the lower levels were custom made items are more useful. In my experience it's very difficult to get an adventuring party to stop and wait while an item crafter makes even one scroll let alone the sickest of damaging wand combos. If your looking at high-levels (12+) your not getting the same game. Anything that reaches high-levels is going to appear broken. Correctly managed a party of 12th level characters can kill multiple creatures four to five CR higher then them in one or two rounds of combat and not take a lick of damage or be seriously depleted. For the blaster, that's a good number of feats your burring for a combat only application. I could see were Twin Spell could be help full with a wand of cure wounds. The blaster is the most extreme build for an Artificer most of the time they run like clerics or bards. They hide in the back and make everyone else better. A blaster artificer is like a melee bard, it got sick of everyone thinking they weren't doing anything. A Blaster Artificer needs only 4 Elective Feats - Wand Mastery, Empower, Twin Spell (or Maximize), Quicken. In between there he can shove An Artisan feat to reduce gold cost, and then use a bonus feat to reduce XP cost. If he goes full bore for Cannith Wand Adept, he also will probably Take the LEast Dragonmark feat or Favored in House at level 3 or 6 (he gets the Dragonmark for free at level 12, eh!). Feat Intensive? He's got a few combat buff feats, two item creation feats, a Dragonmark and all the goodness that can do. And really, you don't need the CWA if you really want to be an Artificer. THe CWA is nice for the wand buffage. But Wand Mastery is an edge all by itself, and an Artificer who wants to focus on the building side could easily focus more on Artisan feats, grab Dragonmark Heir, Improved Initiative and the like. An Artificer is more like a Mage with Rods of Sudden Twin and Sudden Quicken handy all the time. His infusions also urge him towards support of the party. And if you ignore the CWA levels and go for Extend and Persistent Spell, you now have a buffificer. Oh, my, what you can do with this...especially if you make a Wand of Divine Favor, Persistent it, and then pass it around for everyone in the party to use if they have UMD...pass around the +15 Competence item or somesuch:) ===Aelryinth
camble 08-18-05, 11:46 PM	as i remember persistant meta magic needs a fixed range like the detect magic spell so the buffs line won't work as persistant spells
Pinky's brain 08-19-05, 01:00 AM	Personal range works too.
DoveArrow 08-19-05, 01:49 AM	Since you have be level 9 to get Wand Mastery, a CWA/3 is a minimum of Artficer/9, CWA/3, or 12th level...not 10th. He also needs Favored In House or Least Dragonmark to qualify for CWA, and he gets a feat at level 12. He has the Least Dragonmark, but darnit, I don't want to go back in and give him three more levels of artificer. Do you have any idea how long it took me to make that stat block as is? However, because I'm a darned fool (and apparently a masochist), I'll do it... eventually.
camble 08-19-05, 03:15 AM	I did forget about personal spells. but you still can only buff your self. now that i think about it you could get the reach spell metamagic feat making the touch spells a set 30' reach and then use persistant for the buffs. witch would be just enough for a wand and then a infusion or the metamagic spell trigger. I have to say the biggest problems that i see with the artificer is the metamagic item infusion it is better at a lower level then one of the main special abilities of the class. It probable should be a 5th or even a 6th level infusion. i would say that just doing that would go a long way to balance some of the issues pointed out. Maybe take it out all together and make a bunch of seperate infusions for the many meta magic feats out there but that would be a lot of work and you would have to put something in there stating that they don't stack. does anyone else have any ideas on how to make the class balanced if they think it is overpowered.
Pinky's brain 08-19-05, 09:17 AM	You can put personal range spells in wand and cast them from the wand. Metamagic item infusion will apply persistent to the wand for a number of rounds, so you can pass the wand around. Everyone who casts from the wand will benefit from a persistent spell.
aelryinth 08-19-05, 10:32 AM	I did forget about personal spells. but you still can only buff your self. now that i think about it you could get the reach spell metamagic feat making the touch spells a set 30' reach and then use persistant for the buffs. witch would be just enough for a wand and then a infusion or the metamagic spell trigger. I have to say the biggest problems that i see with the artificer is the metamagic item infusion it is better at a lower level then one of the main special abilities of the class. It probable should be a 5th or even a 6th level infusion. i would say that just doing that would go a long way to balance some of the issues pointed out. Maybe take it out all together and make a bunch of seperate infusions for the many meta magic feats out there but that would be a lot of work and you would have to put something in there stating that they don't stack. does anyone else have any ideas on how to make the class balanced if they think it is overpowered. By Keith's example, and I agree, the first step is not letting such infusions stack. Otherwise you have the true horror of Twinned Repeating Admixtured Quickened Wands of Empowered Scorching Ray to deal with... One Infusion, that's it, which actually does a lot. Not allowing Twin and forcing use of Maximize shafts damage a lot as well. To further restrict it, don't allow Cannith Wand Adept, make it an NPC class if you are worried about Wand damage. This results in Buffificer builds tho. Panic tactics by NPC's. If wands are abused, then by rote they've been abused for a Long Time. Someone pulls out a wand, they should instantly inherit all kinds of nasty as the NPC's panic. Use the abuse against the party. Suddenly they won't want to twist the rules so much. Your excuse would be, "Yeah, everyone knows about that little combo you worked out. It's been around for probably eight decades of the Last War, invented by Master Grouiliuex of the Knights Arcane in 934 CY at the Rise of the Twin Towers..." etc etc. There's always ways. If they want to munchkin, munchkin them back. Artificers make great MUnchkin NPC's because you can always give them twice the gear of NPC's, and use it all without feeling bad...especially wand charges. ===Aelryinth
Atch 08-19-05, 10:48 AM	I don't know if this was mentioned, but a lesser globe of invulnerability can drive a wandificer nuts. Why? Wait until the Wandificer has rolled or spent all of the charges from the wand and then calmly let him/her know that the attack fizzles or is absorbed. *shrug* Or if you really want that look of horror, have a powerful NPC cast spell turning before the battle. Wandificer attacks. Spends fifteen charges, cackles, and watches in horror as his 156 damage attack comes rocketing back at him like the hammer of a dwarven god. Granted this is not a sure win everytime, but it is fun for the annoying PC that won't shut up about his character's damage.
Chiyo 08-19-05, 12:25 PM	As far as limiting a blastificer with globes of invulnerability, it'd be short-lived. Artificer would then pick heighten spell and you'd have to contend both with the same stuff as before but also with higher DC for saves vs those magnified spells. So artificer would blow one charge, note that it was blocked by globe (unless they witnessed casting of globe in which case, she won't even blow the initial charge), heighten spell to 9th level and reapply the same with a DC 5-8 higher than before. And by the way, any caster in the party is gonna be in the same boat unless you're talking lvl 11+ game and even then they'll have very few spells available. Not much fun. Artificer can apply heighten spell with some impunity, not so other casters so globe is gonna **** off more than just the artificer. As far as throwing NPC blastificers at the PCs, first it'd be ultra cheesy to pretend that this has been going on forever when the PCs haven't met anyone like that before you introduce it (and you won't probably until the problem arises so after lvl 5 and probably later). Secondly, you're also bumping the loot level of their opponents which means you'll be handing out more loot in turn resulting in party better equipped than they should be, especially if artificer turns to equipping everyone. And all those actually turn the game into a player vs DM confrontation rather than collaboration to make a fun game for everyone. And worst, you're penalizing players for something that's the DM's fault since DM was the one who allowed player to pick all those feats. DM should see it coming. Artificer is a high maintenance character to keep track of. DM should be more pro-active and aware of consequences of character builds (there really aren't that many very powerful ones actually). Like for my case, DM blew the whistle after I started using twin spell and told me that quicken or other significant power boost to wand spells weren't gonna be fun for the game in the long run and I agreed not to pick those feats. And there are options even once you've had an artificer with too many potential abuses. You could house rule that MM feats applied to wands don't stack. It's not RAW but it's a legitimate house rule. Another house rule I talked about with DM was to add a random risk factor to applying more than one MM feat to wands. Wands are restricted to 4th level spells. They're not supposed to be used to cast that much magnified spells and trying to put more than one runs a risk of having the wand backfire or blow up entirely. We decided against it since it'd be too messy in accounting and I'd rather limit myself voluntarily than dealing with it. Eventually we went with requiring higher UMD checks. UMD 20 is trivial to activate a wand but this covers regular wand activation. When you're trying to activate a twinned empowered quickend maximized admixtured wand, it should be a bit more tricky. So we adjusted the UMD check in consequence. Each +1 level equates to +2 in CL so +2 in UMD. So activating a twinned wand becomes a 28 UMD check. Still doable but can get in the way and waste you charges now and then (at lvl 7 my UMD is +22). But applying tons of MM feats would get you to impossible UMDs. And if that UMD fails ... DM gets to have fun finally. So there are house rule options you can consider and justify. Just find one that works for you and your artificer player. Applying metamagic feats to a wand takes time. Via metamagic item, artificer is effectively using rounds where she's not contributing anything to the fight (unless you saw fight coming and could prepare). And those rounds of no contribution are when opponents are at full strength. You can play on that timing a lot to prevent abuses. Throw fights in which PCs are surprised and enemy is in their face right away. Artificer won't take 4 rounds to apply 4 MM feats to a wand in those conditions. Reduce cash flow and provide loots that are gonna be used by other party members so they get power boosts but artificer doesn't get cash for wands. That will quickly nerf the metamagic spell trigger temptation to blow 15 charges per round. If not, steal newly created wands at the right moment. Cash flow for artificer is vital to performance. If you can't undo their feats before it's too late, if you don't want to house rule and run out of encounters that happen too fast for metamagic item infusions, ruin the artificer in operation cost if they go that route.
Quoriil 08-19-05, 01:13 PM	Someone hasn't read the errata! Thank the holy for that errata too... as it stands, even taking those feats once allows you to build at a pretty sttep discount.
aelryinth 08-19-05, 02:12 PM	Exactly what is Heighten going to do for an Artificer? :) You can't pump a wand up above level 4. Now, a staff you could...but those have their own problems. That is a GREAT idea with the UMD check. Actually, if you look at the other magic items, the UMD increases by +3 per spell level I believe. Either way, increasing the UMD makes for a fine distraction for a complacent Artificer, even one who can take 10. Note that in my above builds, he's only applying one Metamagic item for a +3 or +4...the other is metamagic Spell Trigger, which burns a lot of charges and works out seperately. NPC artificers with more gear means more disposable gear and more gear to burn up/buff with...and to help them run away. Personally, I think not giving an enemy Artificer a spell storing item with a Dim door or something in it to help them flee with a snap of their fingers is kinda cheesy. ==Aelryinth
Atch 08-19-05, 02:40 PM	So artificer would blow one charge, note that it was blocked by globe I believe you missed my point. This little annoying trick on my part is in response to the player maybe becoming too zealous. BTW, I would use Spell Turning instead of a Lesser Globe at higher levels of course since it lasts for a great deal longer time. Also, I don't know too many artificers who face something that requires a powerful attack and casts a single use of a wand when they can empower, maximize, and/or twin the wand attack to get uber attack. You are correct that a wise artificer would use just one charge to test the waters, but that plan has its flaws too. Two artificers facing each other. One goes first and uses a single use of scorching ray on the other. It hits with no problem. Too late since Artificer number two either goes for the uber wand blast or charges in with his/her 25 AC at level 7. I look at Wandificers like gunslingers of the Old West. They can kill in one shot but hesitate and they're dead. Artificers can be both a nightmare to DM and a blessing; however, both cases involve time and resources. At first, I was very controlling and hesitate to dish out gold; but, I learned that it wasn't for the best interest of the party to hover over the character to make sure that this feat was or was not taken. The only thing that I check on now besides the usual leveling checks is on item creation, i.e. crafting times and value. I mean seriously if the group isn't that happy with having a character that seems to shoulder too much of the fun then they will take action or they will lose out. I would much rather DM as a neutral umpire for all sides than the big bad DM limited only by the rules. If I have a player that wants to build a tankificer then I am sure he will face a rust monster or another monster with touch attacks. If the players wants a wandificer, then I am certain a spell resistance or grappling/rending creature will surface. In both cases, I will let him worry about it.
camble 08-19-05, 02:47 PM	I hadn't thought of that pinky brain but they would have to be able to use the wand to gain the benefit. Thanks for the ideas Chiyo. I like the artificer as a class its just that i don't think that some of his abilities where properly balanced. mostly with the infusiions list. I definitly think they have weaknesses mainly taking away there toys in one way or another but to my mind that doesn't justify some of there abilities. When i first read the metamagic item infusion i thought that it was broken i even checked the errata a couple of times to see if they had made any changes to fix it and still no dice. It seemed strange to me looking at the class that they gave the infusion just before the special ability especially since the infusion is superior don't have to spend extra charges and it lasts for several rounds. I mean if it doesn't stack as keith suggested why ever use the meta magic trigger? It wastes charges.
Goblin Recruit 08-20-05, 11:17 AM	From reading this thread, it seems like the Cannith Wand Wielder is broken, not the artificer. My artificer is at level 4, and all he's made is a few potions, and some cloaks of resistances. Of course, we haven't gotten many magical items anyway, so maybe my DM is good enough to handle me. Now I'm sure I'll be a bit broken at higher levels, but I don't plan on making a (in my opinion) over-optimized artificer, so it should balance out.
Pinky's brain 08-20-05, 11:31 AM	Exactly what is Heighten going to do for an Artificer? :) You can't pump a wand up above level 4.Oh, and why not?
Salla 08-20-05, 05:12 PM	Oh, and why not? Because the rules for wands say they can only hold spells of 4th level equivalent or lower. You want a beefier spell, you need a staff.
Pinky's brain 08-21-05, 03:24 AM	The only quickened spell you can put in a wand is a quickened cantrip, yet you seem to have no problem applying quicken to scorching ray or the orb spells through metamagic item/spell trigger ... what the wand can hold is irrelevant.
camble 08-21-05, 04:25 AM	well this is one of my main issues with the meta magic item infusion. So say you infuse the wand with heighten what level is the heighten is it automaticly considered a 9th level spell since there is no set standard except that it can only be infused with one feat. heck if that is the case ill just go and pick out some nasty save spells like phantasmal killer and with one infusion you have a bunch of very dead enemies especially with the bonus to saves added from the wand mastery and cannith wand adept class. 10 base +9 for spell level +4 for minimum attribute +5 for class and feat for a 28 DC save that is pretty nasty. The class has alot of style but there is balance issues with some of its abilities. even its 1st level infusions are real good like putting blinding on a shield allowing 2 uses for 1 spell. Its not ground breaking but i can see where this would make setting chalanges for the group hard with a savvy artificer boosting his party.
DoveArrow 08-21-05, 02:02 PM	Has anyone considered not letting metamagic item feats stack? In normal game play, the situation of two metamagic feats used on the same spell never comes up, so it seems logical to me that the designers might not have considered the consequences of letting them stack. Consider it a house rule of sorts.
Pinky's brain 08-21-05, 02:37 PM	The rules already forbid you from stacking different results from the same spell (and infusions use the same rules as spells). Metamagic spelltrigger is usually assumed to be able to be used with multiple metamagic feats at the same time though, same as normal metamagic, so as long as you are willing to burn charges you can still put on as much metamagic as you want. Even without any of that it is broken though, most examples here just used quicken and twinned (1 time metamagic item plus 1 time metamagic spelltrigger). Also there is heighten as mentioned. Taking off the metamagic cap is broken as hell ... that was true for divine metamagic, and it is doubly true for the artificer.
Jonathan Drain 08-21-05, 04:12 PM	I don't think the artificer is especially broken just because he can make a lot of magic items. Making magic items is what the artificer does. It's his class ability, much like a fighter fights and a wizard casts spells. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't make one who's significantly overpowered, but the same can be said for just about any of the classes. Just look at the "five hundred damage a hit" paladin charge builds, the wizards abusing Polymorph and Shapechange, or the exalted druid with Natural Spell who permanently assumes the form of a celestial triceratops.
camble 08-22-05, 01:19 AM	I don't have a problem with the artificer as a class i think the idea is great. I don't have a problem with the artificer making permenant and charged magical items for themselves and there group. Thats one of there nitchs. I just feel that there ability to use metamagic feats with no adjustment through metamagic item is unbalanced and can be straight broken if the character simply takes it to its obvious conclusion. The other infusions that the artificer has can be very useful but i wouldn't call the rest of them broken but i haven't looked at them closely. It is just the metamagic item infusion that just jumped out at me when i was looking it over as being open to abuse and incomplete as it is written....
Pinky's brain 08-22-05, 03:09 AM	Id just limit the effective spell level of a spell cast using metamagic spell trigger to your caster-level/2 + X.
aelryinth 08-22-05, 05:25 AM	Pinky, Camble, slow down and take a deep breath. Open up your ECS to the Artificer class and read the section on Metamagic Spell Trigger. It EXPLICITLY lists QUicken among the metamagic feats that you can use with this ability. And since Quicken has a cost attached to it, you can also use it with Metamagic Item. You are correct in that you cannot BUILD a Quickened Wand other then with a Cantrip. We are not building, however, we are using Infusions. Heighten Spell is a useless ability with Metamagic Infusions because it has to be Built Into It. Heighten is ONLY useful if the spell can occupy a higher spell slot. Since you can't supply a spell slot as part of the Feat, and Metamagic Item does not say you get XXX spell slots you can Fill with Metamagic feats...there's nothing for a Heightened Spell to fit into. Another way of looking at it is, most Metamagic Feats come with their own built in Spell Level cost, and Metamagic Infusions explicitly pay for them. Could you use it with Metamagic Spell Trigger? Yes. Spell Trigger explicitly notes that it costs an extra charge per level of the Metamagic spell level cost you are adding. Since you can now 'set' the cost of Heighten, you can jolt it up to 9th level if you like...for a minimum of +5 charges. Metamagic Infusion gives you no such choices, and thus would default to '0'...Heighten has no base cost built in. (This is, of course, a very conservative ruling on Heighten Spell...but getting liberal with the rules is what causes difficulty with the Infusions, anyways.) Dove Arrow - Hellcow has explicitly stated that he would NOT let Metamagic Item infusions stack...and by default, no other Infusions. He would treat them like Greater Magic Weapons...the last one overrides the first ones, which is eminently logical to me. And yes, playing around with the MEtacap is what breaks a great deal of this. ===Aelryinth
camble 08-22-05, 10:23 AM	aelryinth i would say that is a interpretation of the mteamagic item infusion since it does not talk at all about the level of the infusion. I would like to also say if i was playing in your game i would accept it as a fair ruling since the infusion says nothing at all about the level of the feats possible witch is the problem. as for meta magic trigger i believe that ability is balanced since it does cost more charges to use a higher level ability in fact i think it is rather amusing that the lower level infusion is so much better since it lasts for rounds doesn't expend charges and has no upper limit and is only a round to cast witch can be well worth the casting time. Also i am not angry so i don't need to take a deep breath i am only pointing out how as the infusion is written it is unbalanced it has been the only ability that i seen the obvious abuses when i scaned through the artificer when i was making up a arch enemy for the pc's i figured i would play test the class and that ability. It was good to good. using a extended melf's acid arrow and flaming sphere eternal wands that he maximised he was able to do a sizable amount of damage to the pc's before he decided to leave the field he could have used power surge to extend the use of his acid arrow wand but he really didn't need to. Maybe i am biased from this encounter but if i had used a empowered orb spell that was maximized or something like that 1/2 the party would have been dead in the first 2-3 rounds and these wands only go up to third level so yee i think that infusion is broken as written
DoveArrow 08-22-05, 01:50 PM	The rules already forbid you from stacking different results from the same spell (and infusions use the same rules as spells). Metamagic spelltrigger is usually assumed to be able to be used with multiple metamagic feats at the same time though, same as normal metamagic, so as long as you are willing to burn charges you can still put on as much metamagic as you want. I understand that the rules allow it, but it seems to me that in this case the rules are broken. House ruling that spells and abilities which simulate metamagic feats don't stack is one way to fix the problem. Even without any of that it is broken though, most examples here just used quicken and twinned (1 time metamagic item plus 1 time metamagic spelltrigger). Also there is heighten as mentioned. Taking off the metamagic cap is broken as hell ... that was true for divine metamagic, and it is doubly true for the artificer. Again, that's why I think metamagic feat abilities shouldn't stack. I realize that the rules allow them to stack, but if an artificer were limited to creating an empowered wand, or infusing a wand with metamagic item, or using his metamagic spell trigger ability only, the class would be a lot less bogus. In fact, I don't think there would be much left to complain about. That's why I think it would be a good house rule.
Chiyo 08-22-05, 02:14 PM	Exactly what is Heighten going to do for an Artificer? :) You can't pump a wand up above level 4. Now, a staff you could...but those have their own problems. I think this is subject to interpretation. In my reading of the rules, you cannot make (craft) wands hold above 4th level spells. But again aside from an artificer, noone else can apply metamagic feats to wands so the ruling on whether a heighten spell feat applied to a wand to make a 4th or lower spell, effectively act as a 5th or above spell would work or not is pretty open. I'm contending that only creation is involved in the limitation for wands to not hold more than 4th level spells. Only precedent vaguely relevant for this is the application of other MM feats to wands. That leads to spells that would take higher level slots and is fine. But I'm not sure if there is any true RAW basis for deciding either way. Either way, yes in a spell duel, you'd blow the charges before checking if it'll work or not. In that case, heighten spell might be included as well provided it's allowed to work on wand to get all spells to 9th. But in group adventuring situation, most artificers would probably apply more discretion about expending charges. That is a GREAT idea with the UMD check. Actually, if you look at the other magic items, the UMD increases by +3 per spell level I believe. Either way, increasing the UMD makes for a fine distraction for a complacent Artificer, even one who can take 10. We thought +2 per spell level was more consistent with the extra spell slots used but everything is possible to reach the desired tuning effect. Goal was to be ok for a few extra spell levels (4-5 maybe) but prohibit insane list of MM feats all applied at once. Essentially a bit like in the sense of what Keith said about non-stacking except more flexible and leaving the decision to risk blowing yourself up to the player (which is way more fun for DM too). It works well to limit reach+persistent+chain cheese too at least at lower levels. Only issue is that eventually it might become irrelevant for higher levels. I mean, my artificer should have about +30 to +35 UMD by level 15 or so without pushing on competence items, item familiar and CHA buffs. At this point even +6 to +8 spell levels become trivial but maybe that'll be fine considering the tougher opposition then. It's a house rule in progress hehe. Other one that we've added but never actually used is to limit the application of one metamagic spell trigger feat per round. Essentially treating Metamagic Spell Trigger ability as a free action you can take only once per round. That makes sure that artificer doesn't go from 0 to full power instantly even with extra charge cost involved. NPC artificers with more gear means more disposable gear and more gear to burn up/buff with...and to help them run away. Personally, I think not giving an enemy Artificer a spell storing item with a Dim door or something in it to help them flee with a snap of their fingers is kinda cheesy. Agree totally here. Enemy artificers make great recurring villains because they have access to anything you want, either via custom items, wand/staves of anything you need, and lots of feats (including action point ones and craft contingency) to allow them to escape and come back for revenge again and again. Only tough part is to be clever but not give your artificer players too many great ideas in the process hehe.
camble 08-22-05, 03:51 PM	Something i put together and am thinking about applying to my campaign to restrict meta magic abuses for artificers. Tell me what you think would it be balanced, is it to harsh on the players. Am i missing a possible abuse? Meta magic Item least Transmutation Level: Artificer 3 Components: V,S Casting Time: 1 min Range: Touch Target: Spell trigger magic item touched Duration: 10 min/ level Saving throw: will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance (harmless, object) Desription: You temporarily apply a metamagic feat you know to a single spell for one casting contained within a spell trigger item. The next time the spell is used from the spell trigger item it is effected by the metamagic feat witch can add no more then one effective spell level. This effect does not stack with any other metamagic item infusion. Meta magic Item lesser Transmutation Level: Artificer 4 Description: As meta magic item lesser except it can add up to 2 effective levels Meta magic Item Transmutation Level: Artificer 5 Description: As meta magic item lesser except it can add up to 3 effective levels Meta magic Item Greater Transmutation Level: Artificer 6 Description: As meta magic item lesser except it can add up to 4 effective levels
Psymnotica 08-22-05, 03:54 PM	Ignore this. I misread something. :)
aelryinth 08-22-05, 04:02 PM	Okay, Sve-vs-DM pointed out to me what was bugging me about this blastificer concept... and I think I have it figured out. In order to pull of the stunt with the wands, the character would have to be 14th level. Let me explain: Wand Mastery: Has a requisite of caster level 9th. Artificer/9 and CWA/3 is 12th level for the maximum Cheese Effect. But I did break it down for just using Wand Mastery and increasing Artificer levels, and yes, I know it's a LOT of transfusions. Camble, those are some seriously underpowered INfusions...you realize you won't be able to maximize ANY wand until way late in the game? Meaning the feat is useless to you until then? Perhaps you might experiment with the Metacap limit...that way you could Heighten a Wand too. And Camble, please...capitalize your I's, don't make run on sentences, split up your paragraphs...it's extremely hard to read what you post. Notice how people break up their posts and use proper grammar? It conveys thoughtfulness and intelligence. Your postings convey a sense of being 'rushed' and 'too frantic to care about grammar.' This is not a slam. Just slow down and do it right so people can read it, and 'you' can come out. We are not in a rush to read it, and my head starts to ache just looking at your blocks of text. In truth, I skip a lot of it because you make it painful to read. ==Aelryinth
camble 08-22-05, 05:36 PM	sorry i am not acustomed to writing on the boards. I will endever to do better in the future :rolleyes: About the infusions you can still use meta trigger. Look at the progression you are not supposed to be able to take maximize at 5th level. The earliest you can normally recieve it is 7th and that is on a 1st level spell. Normally a spell caster has to wait until he is 11th level to cast a max fireball amazingly enough that is when the artificer will get his first infusion using the alternate spells i have made up in fact he can infuse 4th level spells as well through a wand giving him a little breathing room. The first time he can use 4th level feats is 14th level 1 level before a wizard could cast a similar 8th level spell. That isn't even including staffs witch can be made at 12th. If you are seeing something specific that i am not please by all means explain it to me.
Pinky's brain 08-22-05, 05:58 PM	Dove Arrow - Hellcow has explicitly stated that he would NOT let Metamagic Item infusions stack...and by default, no other Infusions. He would treat them like Greater Magic Weapons...the last one overrides the first ones, which is eminently logical to me.Spells which can have different results always override themselves, there are rules for that ... no logic necessary. As for augmentation infusions ... the easiest way to make different augmentation infusions not work together is to simply houserule and say "only the highest level augmentation infusion takes effect". Using a weird interpretation of the overlapping rule which is really only meant for straight numeric bonuses has effects beyond just the augmentation infusion themselves. It also makes it impossible to say put a personal weapon augmentation on a weapon which already has a special ability. (If they "overlap" with themselves why wouldnt they overlap with the real thing? Enhancement bonuses from magic weapon spells/infusions do after all, so then by logic so would equivalent enhancement bonuses.) That is the logical conclusion of interpreting the rules like that, and that is way too much of a nerf IMO. DoveArrow, as long as you leave the metamagic spell trigger ability without a metamagic cap it remains overpowered ... not allowing it to be used with metamagic item only makes life more expensive, but it fixes nothing. Put a reasonable metamagic cap on metamagic spell trigger and you solve most problems, at low level he would have to use metamagic item ... that could break the metamagic cap, but he could only put one metamagic feat on the spell. Since the spell is then already beyond his metamagic cap he cannot use metamagic spell trigger anymore.
aelryinth 08-23-05, 01:56 AM	sorry i am not acustomed to writing on the boards. I will endever to do better in the future :rolleyes: About the infusions you can still use meta trigger. Look at the progression you are not supposed to be able to take maximize at 5th level. The earliest you can normally recieve it is 7th and that is on a 1st level spell. Normally a spell caster has to wait until he is 11th level to cast a max fireball amazingly enough that is when the artificer will get his first infusion using the alternate spells i have made up in fact he can infuse 4th level spells as well through a wand giving him a little breathing room. The first time he can use 4th level feats is 14th level 1 level before a wizard could cast a similar 8th level spell. That isn't even including staffs witch can be made at 12th. If you are seeing something specific that i am not please by all means explain it to me. Whoa, Camble. You are mixing up the spells you can put into a wand with the Power of the INfusion. Metamagic Item and Metamagic SPell Trigger do NOT raise the spell level of the spell they affect. That is an effect of Heighten spell. Unless you are talking about some house rule, what you've just posted is the rules for making a Staff or Wand with an inbuilt Metamagicked spell (Maximized Magic Missile Wand, for instance). Infusions have NOTHING to do with that. They allow you to use a metamagic feat you possess as if the single spell in the item was affected by it. There is no level adjustment. Because there is no level adjustment, Heighten is useless. You'd have to have a wand of Heightened Fireball (level 4), because you are in no way, shape or form changing the spell level inside the wand or staff. Metamagic Spell Trigger could conceivably allow you to do this, by subbing a charge for every spell level the feat would normally take...except there is no 'normal' for Heighten spell. PINKY - As a counter example, people note that casting Elemental Resistance (fire) and Elemental Resistance (Cold) does not cancel either one. Therefore, why should casting Flaming and Icy on a weapon cancel one another out? Why should Keen be overriden by Holy? Etc etc. They look at the Infusion as providing an effect, not something that can work within a stated limitation i.e manipulating the '+1' effect vs PROVIDING +1 effects. And since it's not defined, you get to argue. Both sides are right, in their own way...it's just the latter way is a metacap breaker. ==Aelryinth
camble 08-23-05, 02:51 AM	Whoa, Camble. You are mixing up the spells you can put into a wand with the Power of the INfusion. Metamagic Item and Metamagic SPell Trigger do NOT raise the spell level of the spell they affect. That is an effect of Heighten spell. Unless you are talking about some house rule, what you've just posted is the rules for making a Staff or Wand with an inbuilt Metamagicked spell (Maximized Magic Missile Wand, for instance). Infusions have NOTHING to do with that. They allow you to use a metamagic feat you possess as if the single spell in the item was affected by it. Um so your saying a wizard wouldn't have to make a maximized fireball a 6th level spell. If thats the case i have been playing the game wrong all along. :P I know that a metamagic spell does not raise the actually level of the spell cast with the exception of heighten. Yet as a balance other casters have to use a higher level spell slot artificers with this one infusion completely ignore this balance. Not for a single use no for several rounds no less. Camble, those are some seriously underpowered INfusions...you realize you won't be able to maximize ANY wand until way late in the game? Meaning the feat is useless to you until then? Perhaps you might experiment with the Metacap limit...that way you could Heighten a Wand too. Just because the artificer wouldn't have access to a third level spell feat like maximize, until later in the game does not make it a useless ability. Take fireball and sculpt spell. you can now effect your enemies with the wand while avoiding your allies in a fight by choosing the shape you want. A very nice ability to have i am sure your comrades in arms would appreciate not being fried as you lay down accurate destruction on your foes :eek: I would admit that allowing my infusions to effect a wand only once may be going a little overboard. However this ls not a extra +1 on your sword. Spells are the biggest game breakers in the game. One spell can mean the difference between winning and losing for a party and they shouldn't be boosted up whole sale in my opinion. Do you know the level needed to make any metamagic rod in the DMG. It is a very powerful ability that is controled by the DM until 17th level. I think that the artificer's ability to bump up a wand is a great idea it just needs to be better controlled with the metamagic infusion. So it is keeping in line with other casters heck i can even handle them being a little better just not brokenly so as they are now. Being able to use spells that are many levels higher then any wizard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer could cast at equivlant levels. It should say that i have no problem with the metamagic trigger since it comes with its own balance.
Pinky's brain 08-23-05, 03:14 AM	PINKY - As a counter example, people note that casting Elemental Resistance (fire) and Elemental Resistance (Cold) does not cancel either one.Where exactly does it say that then?
Chiyo 08-23-05, 02:24 PM	Do you know the level needed to make any metamagic rod in the DMG. It is a very powerful ability that is controled by the DM until 17th level. I think that the artificer's ability to bump up a wand is a great idea it just needs to be better controlled with the metamagic infusion. So it is keeping in line with other casters heck i can even handle them being a little better just not brokenly so as they are now. Being able to use spells that are many levels higher then any wizard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer could cast at equivlant levels. It should say that i have no problem with the metamagic trigger since it comes with its own balance. Well metamagic item infusion comes with its own limitations. First, you have a finite number of infusions per day and you effectively give up 3rd level infusions to produce some effect. And additionally, it takes a round per metamagic feat you apply. In that time, the artificer is not contributing anything. In many cases, artificer doesn't have tons of time to prepare and set this up nicely before the fight so that setup time is very important since it's when the enemy is also at its strongest. In comparison, a sorcerer with sudden metamagic-enhanced spell, does not have any setup time. Really compared to metamagic spell trigger, all that metamagic infusion does is save the artificer charges (gold/XP) at the cost of a third level infusion (limited supply) and 1 round of not taking her standard action. Those are trade-offs in their own right. So by derivative, if MM spell trigger is balanced, compared to it, I'd say that MI infusion also has its own balancing aspects. Hard to say whether those are enough but there are balancing aspects to it.
camble 08-23-05, 02:48 PM	Well metamagic item infusion comes with its own limitations. First, you have a finite number of infusions per day and you effectively give up 3rd level infusions to produce some effect. And additionally, it takes a round per metamagic feat you apply. In that time, the artificer is not contributing anything. In many cases, artificer doesn't have tons of time to prepare and set this up nicely before the fight so that setup time is very important since it's when the enemy is also at its strongest. 1 round is not that long. How common is it for a sorcerer, wizard or cleric to cast a defence spell on there first round. Like shield or protection from evil. Even some offensive spells like the summoning line takes a whole round to cast. I don't see this as any different. A sorcerer and wizard has the same limitations with there spells. I also think that it is amazing how people forget that wands can be pretty nice all by themselves In comparison, a sorcerer with sudden metamagic-enhanced spell, does not have any setup time. I am sure any wizard would give his left arm to be able to cast a spell that allowed maximize for the next couple rounds on one of his spells. even better for a sorcerer. It is like any buff spell you give up time to enhance your abilities. I would say that i don't believe the infusion is balanced as it is written. Just like i would not believe if a player came to me with a cool new spell that was 1st level and gave a target a +8 bonus to any one ability score because it is more powerful then a similar ability of a higher level. I see this as no different. I have no problem with the infusion itself only how it is balanced in comparison to what is available in the game through the base classes.
Chiyo 08-23-05, 03:19 PM	1 round is not that long. How common is it for a sorcerer, wizard or cleric to cast a defence spell on there first round. Like shield or protection from evil. Even some offensive spells like the summoning line takes a whole round to cast. I don't see this as any different. A sorcerer and wizard has the same limitations with there spells. I also think that it is amazing how people forget that wands can be pretty nice all by themselves. I agree there too. Casting those spells has an effect to improve the wizard in some way. Very equivalent so I don't see the issue. You waste some time casting a buff and get improved abilities/stats in the process. Different but who says that defending yourself via spells is worse than improving your offense? I think surviving to keep casting spells is pretty important too hehe. I am sure any wizard would give his left arm to be able to cast a spell that allowed maximize for the next couple rounds on one of his spells. It is like any buff spell you give up time to enhance your abilities. Except the wizard would have no costs associated with using those spells unlike an artificer. Artificer doesn't get freebies even with level. Fireball from a wand only gets better if you pump more money into it for artificer, not only gaining levels. Effectively with her CL5 wand of fireball, a lvl 10 artificer has to twin or quicken it to get the same mileage as a wizard 10. And even then, it'll cost her more than 112.5 gp+9XP a pop for the CL5 wand charge (with twin, 225gp+18 XP with quicken). For a CL 10 fireball wand charge, count 225 gp+18 XP a pop. Playing an artificer myself, this IS significant. It doesn't factor in when looking at those big numbers in theory but in practice, it is a balancing factor. I'm always balancing cost of using wands vs results myself. So the cost aspect isn't trivial - otherwise artificer would never bother with MI infusion and only use MM spell-trigger.
camble 08-23-05, 04:00 PM	Those are all very good points but i see the artificer like a sorcerer with something akin to a wizards progression in spells. I know that a artificer is limited to his items for casting power in many ways but he also has skills like a thief, and the bab of a cleric. he doesn't even have to resort to charged items to significantly contribute to a fight. Like putting bane on a ranged weapon or blinding on his shield. these are all first level abilities for personal effect. and i am not saying they are broken just that the artificer is a strong character who with the exception of this one ability is pretty balanced from every thing else i have seen of the class.
Pax 08-23-05, 04:41 PM	Um so your saying a wizard wouldn't have to make a maximized fireball a 6th level spell. If thats the case i have been playing the game wrong all along. :P Metamagic feats up the slot used. But a Maximised Spell is still a 3rd level spell. As I read it, a Wand of Maximised Fireball would cost, assuming minimum caster level, (6 x 11 x 750gp), or 49,500gp. And it's legal, because the spell (Fireball) is still only a third level spell for all purposes except cost. Besides. The fellow you were responding to wasn't talking about the way wizards use metamagic ... he was talking about two abilities of the Artificer class. artificers with this one infusion completely ignore this balance. Not for a single use no for several rounds no less. The casting time for Metamagic Item is "1 round" - so, not just a normal standard action, no, this has you locked in place for an entire initiative pass. And it won't work on scrolls or potions, it only works on Spell Trigger items (in core rules, that's Wands and Staves; if you import some Faerun material, that might include Scepters - intended as an option between wands and staves). And it hqs to be a metafeat the Artificer knows; if the character hasn't learned any metamagic feats, then, that infusion is useless to him. Take fireball and sculpt spell. you can now effect your enemies with the wand while avoiding your allies in a fight by choosing the shape you want. Which any other caster could do, built-in to the wand itself. 1 round is not that long. How common is it for a sorcerer, wizard or cleric to cast a defence spell on there first round. Yes, but the wizard or sorceror has two advantages: They can make a full normal move in the first round, in most cases; Their spell effect is an "instant gratification" affair - no waiting to the start of NEXT round before benefitting from the fruit of their labors THIS round. Just like i would not believe if a player came to me with a cool new spell that was 1st level and gave a target a +8 bonus to any one ability score because it is more powerful then a similar ability of a higher level. ... even if the spell lasted only a single round, and perhaps deald 1d4+1 damage to the attribute when the spell expired? "Never say never", indeed. I see this as no different. Except there are no similar abilities to compare it to.
camble 08-23-05, 05:50 PM	Metamagic feats up the slot used. But a Maximised Spell is still a 3rd level spell. As I read it, a Wand of Maximised Fireball would cost, assuming minimum caster level, (6 x 11 x 750gp), or 49,500gp. And it's legal, because the spell (Fireball) is still only a third level spell for all purposes except cost. Besides. The fellow you were responding to wasn't talking about the way wizards use metamagic ... he was talking about two abilities of the Artificer class. He was quoting me and i was talking about the balance of casting metamagic enhanced spells. I know that this does not raise the actual level of the spell but as a balance you have to use a higher level spell slot. Witch is what i said before. I would also like to point out that this is not the only ability that the artificer has. So limiting this one ability is not going to kill the class Pretty much every post at the begining was talking about how broken a few feats where when used with the meta magic item infusion. I offered a possible fix to what i had assumed was generally concieved as a overly powerful infusion I will admit i was swayed heavily towards nerfing the infusion after taking a look at some of the earlier posts using the infusion as written. Yes, but the wizard or sorceror has two advantages: They can make a full normal move in the first round, in most cases; Their spell effect is an "instant gratification" affair - no waiting to the start of NEXT round before benefitting from the fruit of their labors THIS round. I would like to point out that not all spells are a standard action in fact i also added summoning spells as a example and casters of all types think they are still worth casting. I used both the buffs and that line of spells as direct examples for 2 reasons 1. To give a example where a caster would sacrifice a round not doing damage to buff him self 2. provide a common spell that is frequently cast that costs 1 full round and whose effects is felt in the next round of combat since there was no direct buffs that i could think of off hand that meet those criteria i used two different examples. Artificers have there own advantages over the afore mentioned casters 1. They wear armor and still can use there infusions 2. There infusions enhance self said armor for fairly significant periods ie 10's of minutes as i remember 3. They are more likely to have the best made magical armor to begin with since they can make it starting at 5th level I will leave that list as is since there are other advantages that they have but most don't pertain directly to the reasons a wizard/ sorcerer would take a round or so before engaging the enemy. ... even if the spell lasted only a single round, and perhaps deald 1d4+1 damage to the attribute when the spell expired? "Never say never", indeed. That may be balanced but that is not the spell i put worth as a example is it. By adding those changes you significantly altered the balance making it more in line with its level witch was what i was attempting to do with the metamagic infusion. Oh and explain my reasoning behind the change. Except there are no similar abilities to compare it to. The only thing that is close to this ability is the metamagic rods witch require a 17th level caster to make. So until that level the DM is the only source of free metamagic adjustment if that tells you something.
aelryinth 08-23-05, 08:34 PM	Because a Maximized Fireball uses a 6th level spell slot, you have to follow the rules for 6th level spells when pricing it as a charged item. ANd Wands only take spells up to 4th level. Ergo, you can't make a Wand of Maximized Fireball (pre-Epic, anyways). If that were the case, you could make a wand of Maximized Empowered Twinned Fireball, and if you had Efficent Metamagic, you'd be all set! Mages can use Maximize 'on the fly' as it were...Take Sudden Maximize instead of Maximize and you can max out I believe 3 spells a day on the go. And yes, mages do need to use that higher spell slot to PREPARE Maximized spells. Artificers are not wizards, however, and what Metamagic Infusion does is makes Maximize and Empower extremely viable options at much lower levels then they are for wizards, since they get to ignore the metacap. ==Aelryinth
camble 08-23-05, 08:45 PM	Mages can use Maximize 'on the fly' as it were...Take Sudden Maximize instead of Maximize and you can max out I believe 3 spells a day on the go. sudden mazimize is only once per day And yes, mages do need to use that higher spell slot to PREPARE Maximized spells. Artificers are not wizards, however, and what Metamagic Infusion does is makes Maximize and Empower extremely viable options at much lower levels then they are for wizards, since they get to ignore the metacap. Your right artificer's aren't wizards they are a new class all there own who have a type of spell casting all there own. Who can make pretty much any magical item in the game. Who can use any spell list to create a magical item. Be it bard for charms, clerics for heals or buffs, wizards for direct damage and buffs again. It is a new class that is unique and has its own balance issues so the best we can do is look at what has come before to get a good base for what is balanced and what isn't. That was what i was trying to do with my analogy about a wizards spell progression.
Chiyo 08-24-05, 02:19 PM	Wanna harp on the idea that blastificer (clearly the type of artificer in question with the MM feats discussed here) can do a whole lot of other things besides using wands. This is true until you actually build your own artificer and try to do the versatile, melee/range weapon thing on top of blastificer template. Working against that (and for the best I agree): - stat dilution: Artificers need high CHA for UMD, high INT for spells. For melee builds, you can't really wear heavy armor with low STR and you'll need high CON to make up for d6 HP progression and also a nice +2 or better to AC wouldn't hurt when wearing medium/light armor (again to make up for not wearing heavy armor compared to a pure tank). If you really want to, you could get heavy armor proficiency but that takes away a non-bonus feat. - operation costs: spell list pretty much sucks especially if not warforged. This is not a cleric's or wizard's list, let's face it. Many spells also cast slower than a round (read = action point sink). That means that reaching into other caster's list is often required. Wand charges, the bread and butter cost money and XP. Armor and weapons cost XP to make even if they cost less money to the artificer. Those are balanced by lower crafting costs to equip themselves but again the class is also designed to heavily favor taking artisan feats to support its "lifestyle" especially if you intend to use MM spell-trigger. - lots of spells cost money or action points. All the armor enhancements do. Weapon boosts require action points and money for others. Usually the good spells on the list take money to cast on others. No free lunch there. - low melee/range performance out of the box: with d6 and thanks to stat dilution with moderate CON, artificer is probably a lot behind a tank in melee. For range, lack of feats isn't helping. If you want to be a blastificer, choice will have to be made about point blank range and precise shot. Otherwise, your range options are gonna be pretty poor. Again it takes feats to fix that. Feat that won't be available for MM ones. - with warforged in group, you'll spend time doing backup healing duty for warforged tank. Sure cleric can do it but they can heal everyone with their spells. My artificer ends up spending time healing the warforged fighter/rogue in our group very often. It's good for versatility but wastes you rounds of duration of that MI infusion. Overall, if you concentrate your artificer for melee/range weapon attacks, you're gonna run out of feats available to boost your metamagic infusions with. At the level, you're getting that infusion, you'll have as human 4 feats, 3 as non-human. Taking artisan ones, martial and MM feats all in those 3-4 feats is gonna be quite tough. Sure later on, you can get more feats and finally diversify but this is also the type of levels where other casters can start preparing metamagic-enhanced spells. So, most artificers have to make a choice of what they want to do. If you're a blastificer-type, you're main contribution by far is gonna be direct damage. You won't waste much gold/XP on buffing scrolls/wands. You won't waste time in melee/range attacks knowing you have better weapons and you're not very well equipped for it. In that sense, you'd feel closer to maybe a warmage (and wearing similar armor in fact) and the comparison isn't that blattantly in favor of artificer (our group happens to have a warmage). In fact, until I was able to make wands, I was WAY below warmage performance for the first 6 levels. And now at 7th, I can do more damage at the cost of money and XP but much fewer times per day than the warmage (but I do get a better selection of scrolls to use hehe). As far as behaving like a skill monkey rogue, base skill points don't allow much there. You also only have open locks, search and disable devices really. No gather info, no hide/move silently (not that you'd like those much with medium armor). And INT is kept lower than that of a wizard due to stat dilution. Artificer ends up being a mix of wizard and rogue skills with skill points below both in general. After playing an artificer for 7 levels (and admitedly min-maxing her), performance was below average for 5 levels. It picked up at 5th but I only had twin, couldn't make wands so only had a poor one and could only twin twice a day so I melee-ed use my crossbow and melee weapon a LOT (yes with bane+action point). I never used an armor enhancement until 6th. 50-100 gold a pop is really a killer at low levels. Now at 7th, I'd say I'm in top tier due to high cash flow that enabled me to get great gear. Performance would go down a lot with low loot campaign but in my opinion this is one of the main factor for balancing the artificer. Our campaign has - for good or bad - rather higher than average loot amounts and artificer runs away with this kind of situation.
camble 08-24-05, 04:08 PM	- lots of spells cost money or action points. All the armor enhancements do. Weapon boosts require action points and money for others. Usually the good spells on the list take money to cast on others. No free lunch there. I never used an armor enhancement until 6th. 50-100 gold a pop is really a killer at low levels. I would agree that a great many spells do cost time or money and sometimes both however the 1st level of armor enhancement only casts 10 gp. witch is not that expesive. Take alchemist fire by example it is a common piece of equipement in a 1st level adventurers pack costs 20 gp. At this level of ability you can use Arrow catching, bashing, fortification and blinding (my personal favorite) to enhance your artificer or fellow pc's. That is assuming you are working only with the DMG. I know the abilities are not ground breaking but i would say definitly worth the exspense of 10 gp. when to cast your infusions works out to be a similar dilema a wizard has when he chooses his spells for the day. If i cast this armor enhancement right now will i get the use i need out of it or would it be better to wait until actual combat and use a action point. Something a wizard does not have the lucture to do The ability to cast your infusions in preperation of an encounter and expect to get use out of them is a reflection of your groups gaming style more then anything else. So if you're accustomed to dungeon crawls you will get more bang for your buck quite literally from your infusions then say a espionage style game. The other enhancement abilities are a little pricey but think of what you are getting spell resistance 15, and animated 2 buffs that most any warrior would gladly cover the cost to have you cast it on them. - low melee/range performance out of the box: with d6 and thanks to stat dilution with moderate CON, artificer is probably a lot behind a tank in melee. For range, lack of feats isn't helping. If you want to be a blastificer, choice will have to be made about point blank range and precise shot. Otherwise, your range options are gonna be pretty poor. Again it takes feats to fix that. Feat that won't be available for MM ones. - with warforged in group, you'll spend time doing backup healing duty for warforged tank. Sure cleric can do it but they can heal everyone with their spells. My artificer ends up spending time healing the warforged fighter/rogue in our group very often. It's good for versatility but wastes you rounds of duration of that MI infusion. Overall, if you concentrate your artificer for melee/range weapon attacks, you're gonna run out of feats available to boost your metamagic infusions with. So, most artificers have to make a choice of what they want to do. If you're a blastificer-type, you're main contribution by far is gonna be direct damage. You won't waste much gold/XP on buffing scrolls/wands. You won't waste time in melee/range attacks knowing you have better weapons and you're not very well equipped for it. In that sense, you'd feel closer to maybe a warmage (and wearing similar armor in fact) and the comparison isn't that blattantly in favor of artificer As far as behaving like a skill monkey rogue, base skill points don't allow much there. You also only have open locks, search and disable devices really. After playing an artificer for 7 levels (and admitedly min-maxing her), performance was below average for 5 levels. I believe that the artificer's main job is not frontline combatant, substitute rogue or being the spell damage monkey of the group. They enhance the overall effectiveness of the party a nitch they fill very well similar to a bard in many respects But with there own style. witch can be a thankless and annoying job at times. You become "hero support" yuck. Having said that i would also like to say that they can easliy take on secondary roles in the party that cover all of the above by concentrating on a field and pretty much sticking with it.
Chiyo 08-24-05, 04:27 PM	I believe that the artificer's main job is not frontline combatant, substitute rogue or being the spell damage monkey of the group. They enhance the overall effectiveness of the party a nitch they fill very well similar to a bard in many respects But with there own style. witch can be a thankless and annoying job Having said that i would also like to say that they can easliy take on secondary roles in the party that cover all of the above by concentrating on a field and pretty much sticking with it. Very good description of what's been my experience so far. Kinda feels like the backup anything guy in the group. And the one in charge of providing the scrolls we need when we don't have the right spells or enough of them. I didn't specialize in anything really. Don't feel super buff in any department but got a good mix of options. Got Legendary/extraordinary artisan feats (cutting costs = no brainer for me), extend spell (double spell duration on spell trigger for only 1 extra charge+ doubleing metamagic item infusion duration using 4th lvl infusion), twin spell (more bang for charge than quicken or maximize) and persistent spell at 6th (for filling tanking needs of group via divine power and divine favor wands). I'll probably pick up sculpt spell at 8th and wand mastery at 9th to get a bit better on the (AE) nuking side.
camble 08-24-05, 05:32 PM	Thank you Chiyo I look at the artificer as the McGuyver of the d&d world. he has a lot of potential there is only the one area of contention I have with the class. In fact in a different game I am playing the class for the first time. I don't believe I will have the oppurtunity to get the true feel for the class though since we are all playing gestalt characters. I wanted a wizards wizard so i went wizard/ artificer. It will allow me to play my changes first hand and see how it works. About the different specializations If you have city of towers there is the arcane key wonderous item that has artificer thief written all over it. Imagine A rash of thefts in sharn where the exspensive magical protection used by the rich seem to have not even been disturbed yet all there gold, jewels, and other treasures are gone. Could be a interesting vilian for the pc's i would think that a artificer could make a great leader of a thieves guild. Since there seems to be a great deal of magical protections in eberron due to the mark of warding
Chiyo 08-25-05, 02:47 PM	Yes, artificer at the base of an organization could be very interesting. They would have supply of cash to craft the tools the organization needs. There's even some mean issues of action using retain essence on some protections. Imagine you stole a container protected by powerful magic traps and spells. You could actually retain essence on the traps, not only removing them but inflating your craft reserve in the process. Very nasty combination. The various Eberron adventures I've read (arguably not many since I'm playing my artificer thru the WotC published modules currently), don't really have a very prominent artificer villain but I think it'd be a great opponent for PCs. I'm thinking of fitting one in my PBEM Eberron campaign somehow. Maybe like in your case, replace a wizard/sorcerer villain by an artificer and see what possibilities it opens. :)
camble 08-25-05, 03:27 PM	Yes retain essence and traps is a evil trick. I am sure that the other characters will drop a brick when i tell them i want to go back to a dungeon that we went through to drain away the magical traps that where bypassed to boost my reserve and make all the magical toys they want. I wonder about this though because it destroys the item in question witch i can understand you don't want the character to have a free lunch. By retaining the essence and then selling the jewel encrusted sword too :eek: But say the pc's have the time they could use this little trick to bypass say a magically trapped door completely. Since the description indicated the item in question is destroyed of course it does take a god awful lot of time. So i don't see it as unbalanced just interesting. Since i am sure the designers never thought of that. Its those crazy PC's and umm DM's that have those type of crazy ideas :)