Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caul 06-19-04, 07:07 PM	I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but aside from the fact that an Artificer can use any of their infusions spontaneously, their item creation ability is really powerful. The XP reserve aside, the fact that they can use Use Magic Device to emulate any spell is really overpowered. As written, an Artificer at first level can Scribe Scroll, use their reserve XP, and conceivably create 3 scrolls of scorching ray, which even at the adjusted CL 1 still do 4d6 points of damage; all they need is 450 gp, and they haven't even tapped their actual experience yet. This seem odd to anyone else? Perhaps Artificers should be required to have a codex of some sort, which not only contains the formula for their infusions, but also a record of any spell they have seen, and successfully identified with Spellcraft, which they can then use Use Magic Device to emulate. More written work in the long run, but I think a little bit more balanced than saying they basically know all spells right from the get go. Thoughts?
Caul 06-19-04, 07:21 PM	By the way, if I am reading and understanding the information wrong, please let me know.
Indigo 06-19-04, 08:04 PM	Originally posted by Caul As written, an Artificer at first level can Scribe Scroll, use their reserve XP, and conceivably create 3 scrolls of scorching ray, which even at the adjusted CL 1 still do 4d6 points of damage; all they need is 450 gp, and they haven't even tapped their actual experience yet. Sure, but where does a first level character get his hands on 450 gp? Even having 150 gp to spare for a scroll at first level seems like a tall order... and I think my artificer would rather spend it on chainmail in order to stay alive. By the time you get to 2nd level, perhaps, but it's still the permanent expenditure of a limited resource to gain a one-use item. And don't forget that making that scorching ray scroll will require a Use Magic Device check with a DC of 23, which is not going to be easy for a 1st-level character to pull off. I agree that it's a powerful class... but there are lots of powerful effects in the game. I need to see how it comes out in play.
Char Aznable 06-19-04, 09:12 PM	Artificers are great if you really want to make stuff. I mean, REALLY like to make stuff. And if there is a Warforged in the party. Else, I see parallels to Star Wars and the Tech Specialist.(though the Tech Specialist totally sucked)
Fedifensor 06-20-04, 12:38 AM	Originally posted by Indigo [B]And don't forget that making that scorching ray scroll will require a Use Magic Device check with a DC of 23, which is not going to be easy for a 1st-level character to pull off. And they only get two rolls before failing, burning the XP, GP, and time for nothing. You can't take 10 on Use Magic Device (well, not till high level), so it's always a risk. One bad set of rolls, even with a good bonus, and you've got nothing to show for your efforts. Keith mentioned that a low-level artificer could take Skill Focus and/or Magical Aptitude. The problem is that unless you're a human, you only start with one feat. If you want to start with a Dragonmark (or a shifter feat, or Mithral Body, etc), the earliest you could take it is 3rd. Which means UMD is basically useless until then. A 12 Cha, 1st level artificer with max ranks but no feats dedicated will have a +5 UMD. That's only a 15% chance of making the DC 23 check listed above. Artificers are like Paladins - they need a lot of good stats to be effective. You'll eventually need a 16+ Int to use all the infusions, you'll want a good Cha for UMD, you'll want good physical stats in order to contribute in combat (since you won't be using a lot of wands until the mid to high levels)...moderate stats make for a moderate Artificer at best.
darkthought 06-20-04, 01:32 AM	From what I understand that on a failed attempt, you still lose the EXP. I don't remember, but doesn't a wizard/sorc keep the exp and just lose the material bits?
Caul 06-20-04, 10:07 AM	Thanks for the responses all. It is beginning to look a lot more balanced. I think I just got really freaked out with the any spell idea, but didn't really think of the probability of the UMD checks.
darkthought 06-20-04, 02:04 PM	Originally posted by Caul Thanks for the responses all. It is beginning to look a lot more balanced. I think I just got really freaked out with the any spell idea, but didn't really think of the probability of the UMD checks. I did a double take on that too. Just remember that an Artificer can only apply an infusion on an item, or construct (warforged). The ability to emulate any spell is usable only when creating an item, i.e. a Wand of Magic Missle requires the spell Magic Missle to be able to make it. Infusions also take like a minute or so to do.
ThoughtfulOwl 06-20-04, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by Caul As written, an Artificer at first level can Scribe Scroll, use their reserve XP, and conceivably create 3 scrolls of scorching ray, which even at the adjusted CL 1 still do 4d6 points of damage; all they need is 450 gp, and they haven't even tapped their actual experience yet. I don't have a copy of Eberron yet so I cannot check it myself, but unless the Artificer abilities specify otherwise you just can't create CL 1 scrolls of scorching ray: the minimum caster level for a second level spell would be CL 3.
Takasi 06-20-04, 03:56 PM	The ability to emulate any spell is usable only when creating an item, i.e. a Wand of Magic Missle requires the spell Magic Missle to be able to make it. Infusions also take like a minute or so to do. This is incorrect. An artificer can scribe a scroll for any spell, provided he meets the minimum caster requirements as if he were 2 levels greater. Thus a first level artificer can create any spells that a third level wizard could cast, thus the maximum wizard spell level is 2.
Ezekiel 06-20-04, 04:17 PM	On the topic of artificier power level: I agree they're quite powerful. A 1st Level Artificier can spend an action point to quickly infuse his weapon with, oh, say, Bane. I can already picture it in my mind, a group of adventurers going down into a dungeon, happening upon a nasty monster, perhaps an ogre or some such (to 1st level characters) horror. "I spend an action point and make my light crossbow Giant Bane" says the player of the artificier. And proceeds to slay the Ogre. One infusion and one action point to get +2 to hit and +2d6 damage against the opponent you're currently facing. Damn, it's really, really good :)
Anax 06-20-04, 04:22 PM	There's a special ability that artificers have that lets them create a magic item two levels early. The example given is that a third level artificer can create a scroll of fireball, but the level-based effects will still be based on level 3, not the normal level 5. So the fireball will do 3d6 damage, not 5d6. Note, of course, that the DC to emulate a spell for crafting purposes is 20 + caster level. So in this case, the level 3 artificer also has to somehow manage a DC 25 use magic device check to make the scroll. Assuming she was *optimized* for UMD, I could see that being 6 ranks + +3 cha + +3 focus + +2 aptitude = +14 (16 cha), or just under 50% chance from raw ability. She could also get a further +3 from Skill Enhancement (see below.) At higher levels, the artificer's ability to use an infusion to boost the use magic device skill really starts to help here, though, as can the ability to boost charisma using eagle's splendor. Skill Enhancement is a first level infusion, which grants a +2 circumstance bonus to any one skill +1 per two caster levels. 11 ranks + +8 cha + +3 focus + +2 aptitude + +6 circumstance = +30 That's assume that Charisma started at 16 and that the stat points at levels 4 and 8 went into Charisma. And of course, that two feats were spent on UMD. As I said, this is a character built entirely around UMD. Intelligence will suffer, making infusions per day hard to come by. Skill Enhancement lasts for 10 minutes per level, so could be used reasonably well for more than one fight if needed (and it's a first level infusion.) It has a 1 round casting time. Eagle's Splendor is just like the spell, so it's more of a one-off. With a +30 at level 8, the UMD character would be able to craft any item up to caster level 10 without difficulty, which is the limit of an artificer's ability anyway. As a result, the full UMD artificer is really kind of *over* built. Especially since at level 13, an artificer starts to be able to take 10. The fully built UMD at 13: 16 ranks + +8 cha + +3 focus + +2 aptitude + +8 circumstance = +37 16 ranks + +6 cha + +3 focus + +2 aptitude = +27 This is clearly overkill for crafting, as without any infusion support at all, the artificer can craft up to caster level 17 items by taking 10. Which is 2 levels higher than the artificer is allowed to craft. It might still be useful for certain abilities and infusions that require a check of DC 20 + (3 x spell level), though. Also note that the above assumes that you can use a non-all-day infusion like Eagle's Splendor or Skill Enhancement to aid in crafting, which is somewhat unclear. I would be inclined to allow it, primarily because I don't see anyone going quite as all-out for UMD skill in my campaign.
Mad Miso 06-20-04, 05:13 PM	I haven't seen the class in detail, but the flavor of a class that can make almost anything happen, given time, materials, and a bit of luck, is really cool. :cool:
Kesh 06-20-04, 07:18 PM	Yeah, I've become fond of the idea that Artificers are basically the MacGuyvers of Eberron. :D
kaor 06-20-04, 10:29 PM	They can also make any spell known available to wizards through a scroll. Which means if you allow one pc to trade things with another the dm has no control over what spells a wizard is going to know. And when they can start "eating" items, it's going to be a really big change for how items are controlled in games. You've basically roughly doubled the value of items the party obtains because of this. Item creation is a major part of the class. You can't just disallow it (as some games I've been in have done), or require ridiculously rare components. If this guy can't craft he has problems. He unbalances a party more than himself however.
Mad Miso 06-20-04, 10:39 PM	I think thats kind of the point........the Artificer is more or less the king of all support characters, but he doesn't directly contribute much to combat. The power he gives to a party Is his true strength. That said, I wouldn't allow Wizards to copy off artificer made scrolls. You could always rule that their whacky way of doing things doesn't mesh with traditional Wizardy.
Hellcow 06-20-04, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by kaor They can also make any spell known available to wizards through a scroll. Which means if you allow one pc to trade things with another the dm has no control over what spells a wizard is going to know. Actually, I'd strongly argue against this. Do you let wizards copy divine scrolls? If not, recall that artificer magic is neither divine or arcane; it is its own unique form. Therefore, I would rule that an artificer scroll is useless to a wizard for purposes of copying spells. If you would allow a wizard to copy a divine scroll, then you've got no case here -- but I certainly wouldn't do this.
Fedifensor 06-20-04, 11:00 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow Actually, I'd strongly argue against this. Do you let wizards copy divine scrolls? If not, recall that artificer magic is neither divine or arcane; it is its own unique form. Therefore, I would rule that an artificer scroll is useless to a wizard for purposes of copying spells. Actually, if an artificer scroll is neither divine nor arcane, wouldn't that mean that wizards and clerics can't use any wands, scrolls, or similar items made by an artificer?
Hellcow 06-20-04, 11:21 PM	Originally posted by Fedifensor Actually, if an artificer scroll is neither divine nor arcane, wouldn't that mean that wizards and clerics can't use any wands, scrolls, or similar items made by an artificer? An excellent question, and one that should certainly be addressed in errata. My initial inclination would be to let any spellcaster use any artificer item if the spell appears on the spell list for her class. That is to say, if you have an arcane scroll of resistance it can only be used by arcane casters, even though a cleric can cast resistance. If you had an artifice scroll of resistance, either a cleric or wizard could use it. But this won't let a wizard cure light wounds or a cleric use lightning bolt. Artifice operates at a more fundamental level that arcane and divine magic, and is in some ways a bridge. But its definitely not the same as arcane magic, and thus I wouldn't let a wizard copy the scroll. But this is just my initial reaction -- I'll have to run it by the other developers and see what they think.
Takasi 06-20-04, 11:22 PM	UMD and learning a spell are completely different. A rogue can use a wizard's scroll but that doesn't mean he can cast the same spell. A scroll created by a wizard is a transfer of the spell cast by the wizard onto paper. What is the nature of the transfer process? An artificer tries to mimic this when creating a scroll. DMs could rule that the copy is an emulation and cannot be reverse engineered by wizards trying to learn the original spell.
darkthought 06-21-04, 02:04 AM	I'm guessing that a wand of fireball that an artificer makes CAN be used by a wizard/sorc?
JustKim 06-21-04, 02:55 AM	They can also make any spell known available to wizards through a scroll. Which means if you allow one pc to trade things with another the dm has no control over what spells a wizard is going to know. What's the problem? Instead of the Wizard going out and buying the scroll, the Artificer sacrifices XP to make it for him at half price. I don't know where you're getting that "the DM has no control", since any spell outside the PHB is optional and therefore under complete DM control. If it's common spells you're concerned about, you must really hate the fact that Wizards of mid-level can start memorizing spells out of captured spellbooks with an easy spellcraft check and no investment at all. This is not an overpowered combination. And when they can start "eating" items, it's going to be a really big change for how items are controlled in games. You've basically roughly doubled the value of items the party obtains because of this. I think your math needs a little work there champ, because you've basically not doubled but eliminated the value of magical items once you reclaim their essence. You get some points of craft reserve, and the value of a pair of boots of speed (For example) goes from 12,000 GP to 0 GP. A destroyed magic item has no market value. If you then create a new pair of boots of speed, you spend no XP but lose another 6,000 GP. Congratulations, you've just totally wasted your time. Where is the shocking imbalance here?
Sabis 06-21-04, 10:55 AM	Originally posted by JustKim If you then create a new pair of boots of speed, you spend no XP but lose another 6,000 GP. Congratulations, you've just totally wasted your time. Where is the shocking imbalance here? True to an extent, but w/ the xp reducing feat (Legendary Artisan) you essentially spend 1/2 price of the object, (so, you are in essence, down the full price, as you could have sold it for 6000, and then you spend another 6000) and in return have 1/4th of that items xp in extra craft points. Seems like a pretty usless ability to me. =) Unless of cource your party has no way to sell items, but access to materials, and then the artificer can make them for them.... but that's a rare circumstance indeed.
Sabis 06-21-04, 11:08 AM	Originally posted by darkthought I did a double take on that too. Just remember that an Artificer can only apply an infusion on an item, or construct (warforged). The ability to emulate any spell is usable only when creating an item, i.e. a Wand of Magic Missle requires the spell Magic Missle to be able to make it. Infusions also take like a minute or so to do. 1 more corection to this. Look at the spell "Spell Storing Item". Yea, they can emulate ANY spell of up to 4th level for (4*7 = 28 xp). Cleric, wizard, and if ur using psi/magic transparency, psion or psychic warrior power of up to 4th level. Woo doggie, that's supreme versatility.
Hellcow 06-21-04, 12:01 PM	Originally posted by Sabis if ur using psi/magic transparency, psion or psychic warrior power of up to 4th level. Woo doggie, that's supreme versatility. Even if you are using psi/magic transparency, I personally wouldn't allow an artificer to use SSI to store a psionic power -- it's still a power, not a spell, and SSI specifically says spell. Unless you're having psions put their powers in wands and potions instead of dorjes, I'd say that even if dispel magic has a blanket effect on all supernatural abilities, a power is still different enough from a spell that it doesn't fall into the artificer's realm. Now, if you're throwing out all of the psionic item creation feats and so on, fine, go for it. The idea of psionic artificers is something that may be explored in the future as the kalashtar are developed in more detail. With that said, yes, SSI is an incredibly versatile ability. Once you can reliably deal with the required UMD check, it's extremely useful -- though it does require the XP/Craft expenditure and has a 1-minute casting time, in addition to actually using the item; even if you spend an action point, you still have to spend two turns.
mlshuford 06-21-04, 03:36 PM	As written, an Artificer at first level can Scribe Scroll, use their reserve XP, and conceivably create 3 scrolls of scorching ray, which even at the adjusted CL 1 still do 4d6 points of damage; all they need is 450 gp, and they haven't even tapped their actual experience yet Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say that an Artificer's scrolls check his actual level for purposes of damage from a spell? So even if you're casting a 3rd level Scorching Ray it would deal damage as from a 1st level caster?
Josh Wilhoyte 06-21-04, 03:43 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say that an Artificer's scrolls check his actual level for purposes of damage from a spell? So even if you're casting a 3rd level Scorching Ray it would deal damage as from a 1st level caster? You are correct. However, damage for a Scording Ray spell is not level based, it's a flat 4d6. It's the # of rays that is level based, with a minimum of 1.
darkthought 06-21-04, 03:44 PM	Originally posted by mlshuford Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say that an Artificer's scrolls check his actual level for purposes of damage from a spell? So even if you're casting a 3rd level Scorching Ray it would deal damage as from a 1st level caster? You'd be right. ;)
Valoy_Muniz 06-21-04, 04:48 PM	From what I have read (I am still waiting for my book) on this bored. This is 1/2 for batman. He would be something like 10 level of this and rest figher and rouge.
Takasi 06-21-04, 05:45 PM	Again, a 1st level artificer CANNOT scribe scrolls of scorching rays. He can only scribe scrolls of up to level 2 wizard/sorcerer, cleric & druid spells, level 1 bard spells and NO ranger or paladin spells. To determine which spells an artificer can scribe, add 2 levels to his artificer class and compare the spell progression of the class you're emulating. For example, a fourth level artificer would be able to scribe spells like a sixth level wizard; a sixth level wizard can only cast third level spells.
Vos 06-21-04, 08:24 PM	Scorching ray is a 2nd level spell. There isn't a problem. Unless of course, he needs to hit people more than 25' away when he uses the scroll.
Takasi 06-21-04, 11:18 PM	Oops, sorry. People were saying "3rd level scorching ray". Why would you need 450 gp to make three scrolls? Isn't it only 12.5gp x caster level (1) x spell level (2)? Shouldn't it only be 75 gp for three scrolls and 3 craft reserve? I think one of the most powerful scrolls to scribe for a first level artificer is summon monster II. Most first level parties aren't going to encounter a single creature with 4d6 hit points, they're going to encounter multiple creatures with 1d6 hit points. If you position yourself right (and if you're lucky) you can cast that one spell to summon 3 smaller level creatures to setup flanks with your other party members. Here's a first level artificer I made for a campaign about to start, any feedback would be great: Canny grew up with his father, a magewright for a House Cannith armory in Breland. The war kept him and his father busy. After the Treaty of Thronehold Canny was accepted to Morgrave University. He studies alchemy and the art of infusions. Canny is a short and stocky man. In addition to being arrogant about his own potential as an artificer, he looks down on all other forms of magic as archaic and inferior. Since attending Morgrave he is considering atheism. Cantanker t'Armek ("Canny") Male Human Artificer 1st lvl True Neutral Str 10 -- (2 pts) Dex 12 -- (4 pts) Con 10 -- (2 pts) Int 15 -- (8 pts) Wis 10 -- (2 pts) Cha 16 -- (10 pts) Hit Points 6 AC 12, Touch 11, Flat 11 Init +1 BAB +0, Grap +0 Speed 30 (base 30, load 20/33, armorcategory light) Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +0 -4/+1 Melee/Ranged, Darts (10), 1d4, 20/x2 Medium, 5'6" tall, 160 lbs, 26 yrs old White hair, Blue eyes, Pale skin Languages: Common, Draconic, Giant Skills +12/+14 Use Magic Device / Scrolls (4) +8 Spellcraft (4) +6 Appraise (4) +6 Knowledge (Arcana) (4) +6 Craft (Alchemy) (4) +4 Craft (Armorsmithing) (2) +4 Craft (Weaponsmithing) (2) +4 Concentration (4) +0 Listen (0) +0 Spot (0) Feats -Magical Affinity (UMD +2, Spellcraft +2) -Skill Focus (UMD +3) Human Traits -Bonus Feat at 1st level -4 bonus skill points at first level, 1 additional every 4 Artificer Abilities -Artisan Bonus (UMD (Scrolls) +2) -Scribe Scroll -Craft -Disable Trap Infusions Per Day 1st: 3 Craft Reserve: 20 Scrolls Lullaby (UMD 20, 6 gp, 1 craft reserve) http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Canny#111526 Goodberry (UMD 21, 12.5 gp, 1 craft reserve) http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Canny#111527 Enlarge (UMD 21, 12.5 gp, 1 craft reserve) http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Canny#111528 Aid (UMD 22, 25 gp, 2 craft reserve) http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Canny#111529 Summon Monster II (UMD 22, 25 gp, 2 craft reserve) http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Canny#111530 Bull's Strength (UMD 22, 25 gp, 2 craft reserve) http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Canny#111531 Equipment Padded Armor (worn, 10 lbs) 5 gp Scholar's Outfit (worn, weight n/a) n/a gp Darts (10) (belt left, 5 lbs) 5 gp Spell Component Pouch (belt right, 2 lbs, 5 gp) Backpack (center back, 2 lbs, 2 gp) Scroll Case (belt right, 1/2 lbs, 1 gp) Scrolls (scroll tube, weight n/a, 106 gp) Coins (pouch) 2 gp Total (20 lbs, 125 gp)
Vos 06-22-04, 02:54 AM	well, one problem with the summon monster II (or I for that matter), is it will only last a single round. It's more an intimidation tactic and momentary advantage (for flanking, as you pointed out) than anything useful. On the character- possibly switch the Int and Cha scores? The extra skill points will be a lot more useful in the long run than the 1 point bonus to UMD that you can catch up on a 4th level. You could either max out the other two craft skills or add some basics to disable device/open lock/search, which would be a nice secondary role. Some sort of defensive spell might serve you better on those scrolls. Mage armor has a nice long duration.
Bryce 06-22-04, 03:00 AM	In the game im going to be starting probably thrusday, I'm using an artificer as preety much everything, hes the replacemt rogue and cleric, and he takes care of the warforged, im thinking of grabing a lvl of rogue or bard for the social skills, since he has an 18 charisma, and an 18 intelligence(my dice were happy that night) he'll have a nice amount of skill points. I think im going to go bard, since i just looked and i can keep my full use magic device potential, and the bardic music/knowledge fit the idea i had great.
Hardhead 06-23-04, 05:55 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow An excellent question, and one that should certainly be addressed in errata. My initial inclination would be to let any spellcaster use any artificer item if the spell appears on the spell list for her class. That is to say, if you have an arcane scroll of resistance it can only be used by arcane casters, even though a cleric can cast resistance. If you had an artifice scroll of resistance, either a cleric or wizard could use it. But this won't let a wizard cure light wounds or a cleric use lightning bolt. Artifice operates at a more fundamental level that arcane and divine magic, and is in some ways a bridge. But its definitely not the same as arcane magic, and thus I wouldn't let a wizard copy the scroll. But this is just my initial reaction -- I'll have to run it by the other developers and see what they think. BTW, I'd also like to point out that even if a wizard got his hands on an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds, he wouldn't be able to learn it. It's simply not on his spell list. This doesn't really require errata, it's already a rule. Otherwise, a bard could take Scribe Scroll as a feat, scribe his arcane cures down, and hand 'em to wizards.
Valoy_Muniz 06-25-04, 04:50 PM	how would the art. ever gat the roll to make that at first level. If I am not mistaken he need to roll a total of 22. He could get a first level 13(=4 chr,+4ranks,+3 skill focues,+2magical adapet) if human and puts all his feats there he still need a 9 or better on out of 2 rolls. He then must desipher it dc25 (he needs a 14) and then he needs to use it ant that is a 22dc i think (this time he need only a 7 or better.) There are many time he can not get all thes rolls.
Ch@pel 06-25-04, 06:38 PM	Not to be a nit-picking jerk or anything but Scholar's clothes DO have weight of 6lbs and DO cost 5gp. I was making a character the other day and he had a negative Str mod so I had to get very careful about what he could carry without making it a medium load; I'm still kind of touchy. ;)
Gladius_Lucix 06-25-04, 09:23 PM	Originally posted by Ch@pel Not to be a nit-picking jerk or anything but Scholar's clothes DO have weight of 6lbs and DO cost 5gp. BUT(!) the suit of clothing you get free doesn't count for encumberance. :D