Artificers among top 3 best classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artificers among top 3 best classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
3nigma
12-19-05, 12:20 PM I remember a while ago I saw a thread talking about the best, top 3 player classes in D&D. I don't remember what forum or thread, but I think the majority said:

1) Druid
2) Cleric
3) Wizard (core class), Artificer

I was wondering, does everyone have this similar thinking? Or if not, what classes could be considered the more well-endowed classes? Would Artificer be among them?

Anyone remember the thread I'm talking about?

I know that Artificers are very powerful, and was wondering to what extent the consensus of players/dms believed this to be the case.
nastynate
12-19-05, 12:35 PM Artificers can be really powerful. They rank right up there with the best classes. The only thing holding them back is that it takes them lots of down time to create all their wonderful gadgets. In a fast paced game, with a tight timeline, or while out in the wilderness for weeks at a time, you cannot maximize their effectiveness.
13x13
12-19-05, 01:11 PM I remember the thread, and I also seem to remember that the most powerful classes were not ranked the most fun to play
Korhal_IV
12-19-05, 03:27 PM Artificer dominates the rankings now. He literally has every spell in the game at his disposal, and Metamagic Spell Trigger (or whatever his 5th level ability is) is ridiculously good. Fortunately, with all the downtime he requires, he's more easily constrained than other power classes (specifically the druid).
DoveArrow
12-19-05, 06:15 PM The one thing that I'm really happy about with the artificer is that there's finally someone who can take on constructs. Of course, golems still suck for everyone, but hey, I'll take what I can get.
Euangelion
12-19-05, 09:07 PM Fortunately, with all the downtime he requires, he's more easily constrained than other power classes (specifically the druid).

But even that's mitigated by the Unseen Crafter spell/infusion from RoE and the Dedicated Wright homunculus. Artificers simply rock!
Errant
12-19-05, 11:26 PM Druids are the most powerful class to play? Where can I read that explained?
Euangelion
12-20-05, 12:05 AM Well, I think it has to do with the fact that they're:
1.) Full casters with more offensive spells than a cleric (produce flame is very effective for example), not to mention spontaneous summoning (which can be very effective if used correctly) and (all?) healing spells and good buff spells.

2.) On top of that they have good Fort and Will saves, 4 skill points per level (the most of any full caster), and d8 for hit points, and decent weapon and armor proficiencies (their restrictions regarding non-metalic armors are mitigated by the various special materials available in just about every setting).

3.) Then comes their special abilities, of which they get something new every level (unlike all other full casters). Their shape change ability coupled with the Wild Spell feat makes them both excellent warriors and spellcasters at the same time, not to mention their animal companion, so even if you're by yourself as a player, you're almost never alone!

In short, they have many, many advantages with virtually no weaknesses. Played right they are probably the best solo class available (if you have to go into a game by yourself, the druid is probably the class to pick!) I've had a couple of glasses of wine, so this post may or may not make sense, but there it is.
Kalanth
12-20-05, 12:14 AM And even if all those fancy Druidic abilities are not enough, there are plenty of multiclass options for them with the number of PrC's that cater to the Druid, an offhand example being Druid/Monk/Shifter, which can be pretty nasty when in Wild Shape. For the longest time the power class was the Cleric, edging out the Wizard but a hair, but now the Druid can shred any class in its path.

With the infusions of a Artificer, it would be interesting to see how a Druid/Artificer would work out, though it may not work to well with the restrictions to metal that the Druid has to contend with. Not much of a limitation, really, but still a limitation.
a_psh
12-20-05, 01:27 AM I'm of the opinion that artificer would be somewhere between the power level of the wizard and the psion if one was to rank them.

Given their access to almost any spell, artificers definitely suffer heavily from splatbook power creep: any random broken spell in any splatbook could potentially break an artificer. Likewise, we've already seen how traditionally problematic metamagic feats like Persistent Spell also significantly drive up his power.

In an Eberron-and-mostly-core game, however, I don't see it as problematic.
aelryinth
12-20-05, 03:12 AM Druids don't benefit nearly as much of other classes by multiclassing. Their ability to wildshape means they don't need physical stats to be viable...just mental ones, which allows stat specializing and cuts down on MAD.

IN short, for the core classes, and with access to Natural Spell, Druids simply rock. There is no read for a Druid to ever multiclass, while CLerics still can, PrC'ing to gain more domains, for instance.

take away Natural Spell, and that all changes.
========

artificers get their power with access to splatbook spells, since they have access to all of them. That's a tremendous amount of power. Combine that with the ability to make any magic item and getting more magic gear then any class, and yes, Artificers are hugely powerful.

==Aelryinth
Sieylianna
12-20-05, 07:41 AM The one thing that I'm really happy about with the artificer is that there's finally someone who can take on constructs. Of course, golems still suck for everyone, but hey, I'll take what I can get.

You need to buy Complete Adventurer. The new Golem Strike spell and Razing Strike feat allow multiclassed arcane/rogues to sneak attack constructs and golems.

The Arc of Lightning spell is also very good against golems/constructs (no SR) and multiple targets. It's available to druids as well as wizards/sorcerors.

Ed
lukelightning
12-20-05, 04:04 PM Artificers are great if you can get some downtime.
Chiyo
12-20-05, 04:30 PM I'd definitely second that statement but even without much downtime, artificers have great stuff going for them.

- skill monkeys 4+INT mod is usually very high and basically 2 above wizard and way above clerics, druids. Class skills are also pretty good with decent knowledges, the usual caster ones and then disable device/open locks/search higher than that of a rogue usually due to INT. Many artificers will edge out the party rogue for traps (i know mine did which worked well for rogue specialize in info gathering and stealth)

- spontaneous infusions enhancement. Many infusions are kinda blah but the few that aren't really help artificer shine. Armor enhancement, weapon augmentation, energy alteration, construct damage/enhance/repair, metamagic item, skill enhancement.

- crafting: not only do they get craft skills for free but they also get more bonus feats than wizards. Craft reserve and retain essence for added goodness. My experience is that my artificer 10 is FAR better equipped than anyone else in the group, virtually regardless of what drops as long as loot split is fair in value. Artificer also always have the exact gear they want and best they can afford using custom items (if allowed).

- armor: you can say whatever you want. Wearing mithral full plate is pretty sweet along with shield proficiency

- access to any spell of any class allowed. if it's been created, artificer can do it, make a scroll, if 4th or lower level, imbue it on the fly via lvl 1 infusion, make it into a wand/staff, whatever

- metamagic spell-trigger/spell completion: given preparation time and sufficient funds, I don't know any caster that can reach the damage per round dished out by artificer going all out. Level 9 doing 200 dmg per round isn't unthinkable (yeah yeah costly).

- persistent buffing: what you lack in skill, make up in buffs basically. There are pages of persistable spells to choose from so no shortage of versatility either.

My previous main character was a cleric and it was nowhere near as complete as my artificer in terms of raw power or versatility. Artificer if played right, with downtime and custom magic item creation allowed, is definitely a top performer. No need to go with PrCs either. It's pretty much all there from base abilities.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
3nigma 12-19-05, 12:20 PM	I remember a while ago I saw a thread talking about the best, top 3 player classes in D&D. I don't remember what forum or thread, but I think the majority said: 1) Druid 2) Cleric 3) Wizard (core class), Artificer I was wondering, does everyone have this similar thinking? Or if not, what classes could be considered the more well-endowed classes? Would Artificer be among them? Anyone remember the thread I'm talking about? I know that Artificers are very powerful, and was wondering to what extent the consensus of players/dms believed this to be the case.
nastynate 12-19-05, 12:35 PM	Artificers can be really powerful. They rank right up there with the best classes. The only thing holding them back is that it takes them lots of down time to create all their wonderful gadgets. In a fast paced game, with a tight timeline, or while out in the wilderness for weeks at a time, you cannot maximize their effectiveness.
13x13 12-19-05, 01:11 PM	I remember the thread, and I also seem to remember that the most powerful classes were not ranked the most fun to play
Korhal_IV 12-19-05, 03:27 PM	Artificer dominates the rankings now. He literally has every spell in the game at his disposal, and Metamagic Spell Trigger (or whatever his 5th level ability is) is ridiculously good. Fortunately, with all the downtime he requires, he's more easily constrained than other power classes (specifically the druid).
DoveArrow 12-19-05, 06:15 PM	The one thing that I'm really happy about with the artificer is that there's finally someone who can take on constructs. Of course, golems still suck for everyone, but hey, I'll take what I can get.
Euangelion 12-19-05, 09:07 PM	Fortunately, with all the downtime he requires, he's more easily constrained than other power classes (specifically the druid). But even that's mitigated by the Unseen Crafter spell/infusion from RoE and the Dedicated Wright homunculus. Artificers simply rock!
Errant 12-19-05, 11:26 PM	Druids are the most powerful class to play? Where can I read that explained?
Euangelion 12-20-05, 12:05 AM	Well, I think it has to do with the fact that they're: 1.) Full casters with more offensive spells than a cleric (produce flame is very effective for example), not to mention spontaneous summoning (which can be very effective if used correctly) and (all?) healing spells and good buff spells. 2.) On top of that they have good Fort and Will saves, 4 skill points per level (the most of any full caster), and d8 for hit points, and decent weapon and armor proficiencies (their restrictions regarding non-metalic armors are mitigated by the various special materials available in just about every setting). 3.) Then comes their special abilities, of which they get something new every level (unlike all other full casters). Their shape change ability coupled with the Wild Spell feat makes them both excellent warriors and spellcasters at the same time, not to mention their animal companion, so even if you're by yourself as a player, you're almost never alone! In short, they have many, many advantages with virtually no weaknesses. Played right they are probably the best solo class available (if you have to go into a game by yourself, the druid is probably the class to pick!) I've had a couple of glasses of wine, so this post may or may not make sense, but there it is.
Kalanth 12-20-05, 12:14 AM	And even if all those fancy Druidic abilities are not enough, there are plenty of multiclass options for them with the number of PrC's that cater to the Druid, an offhand example being Druid/Monk/Shifter, which can be pretty nasty when in Wild Shape. For the longest time the power class was the Cleric, edging out the Wizard but a hair, but now the Druid can shred any class in its path. With the infusions of a Artificer, it would be interesting to see how a Druid/Artificer would work out, though it may not work to well with the restrictions to metal that the Druid has to contend with. Not much of a limitation, really, but still a limitation.
a_psh 12-20-05, 01:27 AM	I'm of the opinion that artificer would be somewhere between the power level of the wizard and the psion if one was to rank them. Given their access to almost any spell, artificers definitely suffer heavily from splatbook power creep: any random broken spell in any splatbook could potentially break an artificer. Likewise, we've already seen how traditionally problematic metamagic feats like Persistent Spell also significantly drive up his power. In an Eberron-and-mostly-core game, however, I don't see it as problematic.
aelryinth 12-20-05, 03:12 AM	Druids don't benefit nearly as much of other classes by multiclassing. Their ability to wildshape means they don't need physical stats to be viable...just mental ones, which allows stat specializing and cuts down on MAD. IN short, for the core classes, and with access to Natural Spell, Druids simply rock. There is no read for a Druid to ever multiclass, while CLerics still can, PrC'ing to gain more domains, for instance. take away Natural Spell, and that all changes. ======== artificers get their power with access to splatbook spells, since they have access to all of them. That's a tremendous amount of power. Combine that with the ability to make any magic item and getting more magic gear then any class, and yes, Artificers are hugely powerful. ==Aelryinth
Sieylianna 12-20-05, 07:41 AM	The one thing that I'm really happy about with the artificer is that there's finally someone who can take on constructs. Of course, golems still suck for everyone, but hey, I'll take what I can get. You need to buy Complete Adventurer. The new Golem Strike spell and Razing Strike feat allow multiclassed arcane/rogues to sneak attack constructs and golems. The Arc of Lightning spell is also very good against golems/constructs (no SR) and multiple targets. It's available to druids as well as wizards/sorcerors. Ed
lukelightning 12-20-05, 04:04 PM	Artificers are great if you can get some downtime.
Chiyo 12-20-05, 04:30 PM	I'd definitely second that statement but even without much downtime, artificers have great stuff going for them. - skill monkeys 4+INT mod is usually very high and basically 2 above wizard and way above clerics, druids. Class skills are also pretty good with decent knowledges, the usual caster ones and then disable device/open locks/search higher than that of a rogue usually due to INT. Many artificers will edge out the party rogue for traps (i know mine did which worked well for rogue specialize in info gathering and stealth) - spontaneous infusions enhancement. Many infusions are kinda blah but the few that aren't really help artificer shine. Armor enhancement, weapon augmentation, energy alteration, construct damage/enhance/repair, metamagic item, skill enhancement. - crafting: not only do they get craft skills for free but they also get more bonus feats than wizards. Craft reserve and retain essence for added goodness. My experience is that my artificer 10 is FAR better equipped than anyone else in the group, virtually regardless of what drops as long as loot split is fair in value. Artificer also always have the exact gear they want and best they can afford using custom items (if allowed). - armor: you can say whatever you want. Wearing mithral full plate is pretty sweet along with shield proficiency - access to any spell of any class allowed. if it's been created, artificer can do it, make a scroll, if 4th or lower level, imbue it on the fly via lvl 1 infusion, make it into a wand/staff, whatever - metamagic spell-trigger/spell completion: given preparation time and sufficient funds, I don't know any caster that can reach the damage per round dished out by artificer going all out. Level 9 doing 200 dmg per round isn't unthinkable (yeah yeah costly). - persistent buffing: what you lack in skill, make up in buffs basically. There are pages of persistable spells to choose from so no shortage of versatility either. My previous main character was a cleric and it was nowhere near as complete as my artificer in terms of raw power or versatility. Artificer if played right, with downtime and custom magic item creation allowed, is definitely a top performer. No need to go with PrCs either. It's pretty much all there from base abilities.