Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Acceptableloss 10-05-04, 08:02 PM	I'm playing an artificer in our ongoing Eberron campaign and I've noticed something odd about the progression of artificer feats. An artificer gains Craft Arms and Armor at 5th lvl, Metamagic Spell Trigger at 6th and Craft Wand at 7th. However, in the description for Metamagic Spell Trigger on p.32 of the ECSB it says: "At 6th level, an artificer gains the ability to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a spell trigger item (generally a wand). He must have the appropriate item creation feat for the spell trigger item he is using. Using this ability expends additional charges from the item..." Why does the artificer gain an ability at 6th lvl that only works on wands, (the only type of spell trigger item I know of) when he can't create them until 7th lvl? Furthermore, to use the Metamagic Spell Trigger ability on a wand, he must have the Craft Wand feat, which he does not gain until the following level! Personally, if were designing the artificer class I would have given them Craft Wand at 5th, Craft Arms and Armor at 6th and Metamagic Spell Trigger at 7th (or later). Craft Wand and Craft Arms and Armor both require that the character be a 5th level caster, but wands are generally less expensive to craft than arms or armor, and IMO more likely to be useful to the artificer at lower level. There is certainly no reason why the artificer should get Metamagic Spell Trigger before Craft Wand. Has anyone seen this addressed anywhere else? The "Ask Keith Baker" thread perhaps?
Doctor X 10-06-04, 11:35 AM	Just because he can't craft them yet doesn't mean he'll never have one. They can be bought and/or found.
Saurenda 10-06-04, 11:43 AM	Just because he can't craft them yet doesn't mean he'll never have one. They can be bought and/or found. That is correct, most artificers by level 2 will have some sort of level 1 wand spell they find or are given. By level five they may have anywhers from around 3 to 10 wands as does an artificer of mine. I want spell trigger early =D
ENHenry 10-06-04, 12:12 PM	Also, don't forget that an artificer, though it is suboptimal, can take Craft wand at 6th level. One other thing: Keith Baker has said that he has little to no rules authority, and in many cases did not design all the rules in the book, or what designs he turned in were edited by other designers or editors. Though he can give his suggestions and opinions, he can't give anything official.
stone_dog 10-06-04, 12:53 PM	Also, don't forget that an artificer, though it is suboptimal, can take Craft wand at 6th level. Yes, but I think it should be errata-ed to re-arrange some of those abilities. Maybe put Metamagic Spell Completion at 6th and Metamagic Spell Trigger at 11th. Sure you probably have the items themselves, but since the abilities are dependant on having the appropriate item craft feat they are oddly placed. You have known how to make scrolls since 1st level, but you don't know how to apply metamagic to them until 11th. Wands and Staves you haven't even learned to make yet, but you have figured out how to apply metamagic to them once you can make them? Seems odd to me too.
Acceptableloss 10-06-04, 04:16 PM	That is correct, most artificers by level 2 will have some sort of level 1 wand spell they find or are given. By level five they may have anywhers from around 3 to 10 wands as does an artificer of mine. I want spell trigger early =D You are correct in that you could find or buy or be given a wand before level 7 when you can actually craft them, but if you read the text of the Metamagic Spell Trigger ability (see my above post) it says you CANNOT use the ability with a wand until you have the Craft Wand feat. That means you are getting an ability that is impossible for you to use until the next level even if you happen to possess a wand.
smrtgmp 10-06-04, 05:14 PM	I found it a bit odd myself. Now that I can use it though...:schemes:
Doctor X 10-07-04, 02:14 PM	Also, don't forget that an artificer, though it is suboptimal, can take Craft wand at 6th level. Can he? Does he meet the caster level requirement? Remember that he's technically not a spellcaster. Honestly, I don't know... but it would be a stupid thing to do, anyway. Sorry, though... I forgot that you can't use metamagic spell trigger on a wand until you have Craft Wand. Now that you guys mention it, that is very strange. I wonder if they meant to give away Craft Wand at 6th, then metamagic spell trigger at 7th, instead of the other way around? If anyone is an artificer in my game, I think I'll flip the two around, because it makes much more sense that way. Besides, getting Craft Wand at 7th when a Wizard could take it at 5th seems to take Artificer's down a notch...
straylance 10-07-04, 07:58 PM	Can MST be used with scrolls? If so, perhaps this is how it was meant. I'm not inclined to mess with the artificer; it seems very powerful by itself and the balance it rests on seems precarious, IMO.
Doctor X 10-08-04, 12:29 AM	Can MST be used with scrolls? If so, perhaps this is how it was meant. Nope. Scrolls are spell completion, not spell trigger. The only spell trigger items given in the DMG are wands. There's nothing else you can use MST on... besides possibly a wondrous item of some kind that your DM creates. That could work, actually, as the Artificer gets Craft Wondrous item at 3rd level.
stone_dog 10-08-04, 12:37 AM	What about staves Doc? A staff of fire for example? I still think the easiest solution is to swap the abilites for MSC and MST. Scrolls get your metamagicy goodness first... THEN your trigger items.
Doctor X 10-08-04, 12:47 AM	What about staves Doc? A staff of fire for example? Whoops. :blush: Sorry... forgot about those. It's not like it matters, though... You don't get Craft Staff until much later anyway, so you can't use MST on them at 6th level, either. I still think the easiest solution is to swap the abilites for MSC and MST. Scrolls get your metamagicy goodness first... THEN your trigger items. :OMG! Don't you think that might upset the balance just a tad? There's a reason why you can't do this until 11th level, I think... Scrolls don't have charges, so there really is no long-term cost for applying metamagic to them. It's a very powerful ability, especially since scrolls have no limit on what level spells can be stored in them, unlike wands, which can never go above 4th.
stone_dog 10-08-04, 12:55 AM	Hmmm... possibly unbalancing. What is the DC like for such things? If it is high I would say let them risk getting a finger or something blown off, but if it is a lower DC then it isn't such a good idea after all. I am at work though and have no access to my rules here. IF the risk is high then I have no problem with it, but if it is still fairly easy to accomplish(or at least fail without harm) at 6th level then swap the ability with the feat gain.
Doctor X 10-08-04, 01:31 AM	The DC usually tends to be pretty high. In addition to rolling UMD to actually activate the scroll, you need to roll against DC 20 + ( 3 x the modified spell level) to apply the feat. My guess is that the scroll still activates without the metamagic if you fail this, but you still lose one of your MSC uses for the day... which isn't too bad. There isn't that much risk involved in the end. But let's see... what mayhem could an Artificer cause with this at 6th level? Well... The DC for maximizing a 1st level spell cast from a scroll is 32. By 6th level, with the help of wondrous items, an Artificer could have a UMD modifier of nearly +15. On average, it won't work, except with action points. But you have to think about this-- This is normally a 4th level effect, which is something a wizard can't do until 7th level. You'd be getting it a level ahead of them... and you could potentially do this 3 or more times per day, depending on how much gold you had to put into your crafting, whereas a Wizard still only gets one or two 4th-level slots at 7th. This seems to take away some of the Wizard class's metamagic thunder, and you can't take BOTH metamagic and item crafting away from the guys. It just wouldn't be right. And unlike MST, there would be no real long-term consequences aside from spending couple action points. You have 6 of these... or 9 if you take Heroic Spirit, and you get all of them back at your next level-up. With MST, you'd have to spend 4 charges every time you wanted to do this... that means you could do it only about 12 times before you have to make a completely new wand... and at CL's around 7 or 8, that can be very expensive. as each wand's base price (and thus, cost to create) is 30 times as much as a scroll of the same spell level and CL.
Doctor X 10-08-04, 01:48 AM	Actually... you know what? Now that I think about it, it isn't really that bad. A wizard still doesn't have to pay crafting costs for every spell he wants to cast, so he's still better at metamagic and spellcasting in general. I still think getting MSC so early is a bit too powerful, but it shouldn't be as big a deal as I thought at first... Unless somebody else here can figure out a better example than mine?
stone_dog 10-08-04, 02:16 AM	Hmmmm.. AND scrolls are the most synergy rich of the UMD rolls. I suppose that might be just a bit much actually. Still, if the ability actually requires two rolls then that is two chances for the thing to pop with 2d6 damage and a pile of ash. Not a great big chance, but one all the same. DC 32 with a +15 to the roll? Then 1-7 means it blows up in your face. I don't know if it is considered mechanically balancing, but I know it would give me pause. An interesting thing to consider though...
Doctor X 10-08-04, 11:18 AM	Hmmmm.. AND scrolls are the most synergy rich of the UMD rolls. I suppose that might be just a bit much actually. Oh! I forgot about synergies. So a +15 or higher would be very possible by 6th, then... It could be a problem. Not to mention that a second level empowered spell would fit in there the same way a 1st level maximized would, which can be even worse now that I think about it. Still, if the ability actually requires two rolls then that is two chances for the thing to pop with 2d6 damage and a pile of ash. Not a great big chance, but one all the same. DC 32 with a +15 to the roll? Then 1-7 means it blows up in your face. I don't know if it is considered mechanically balancing, but I know it would give me pause. Can mishaps actually occur with the second roll (the one to apply the metamagic)? The entry in the ECS doesn't say anything about, and this use of the skill is new, and thus isn't detailed in the PHB. I'm guessing that if you fail the roll, the spell still takes place normally, and one of your uses of MSC are used up for the day. But I could be wrong.
stone_dog 10-08-04, 03:33 PM	Can mishaps actually occur with the second roll (the one to apply the metamagic)? I don't see why not. Its a UMD roll failed by 10 or more after all. "Anything not expressly forbidden is allowed." At least... for the DM. ;)
Acceptableloss 10-09-04, 04:17 AM	What about staves Doc? A staff of fire for example? I still think the easiest solution is to swap the abilites for MSC and MST. Scrolls get your metamagicy goodness first... THEN your trigger items. In my opinion, the issue here is that you don't really pay anything when you use metamagic spell completion. I think that's why the powers that be left it until much later tham metamagic spell trigger. When you use MST you pay for it with extra charges from your wand (or rod or stave). You can use MSC on any scoll you pick up. Assuming you can pass the UMD check, which can certainly be very difficult, there is no cost for using the ability. In this case I really think they just made a minor mistake with the artificer class. No other class in the game (as far as I know) *ever* gets an ability that than can't use at all until they level up further. The simplest solution IMO is to put Craft Wand at 6th level and MST at 7th. As I previously posted, this isn't exactly how I would do it if I were designing the class. If anyone can puzzle out a reason why it is useful, or why it makes sense to get MST before Craft Wand I'd like to hear it, but I don't think there is.