Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mahavira 04-17-07, 09:14 PM	Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention to the various abilities, but I've been having trouble using artificers as BBEG. While they're somewhat more formidable when they are in control of when the fight happens, they're still fairly reliant on tons of magic items to lay any smack down, and wands etc. have miserably easy saves, even if they are empowered or whatever. Even when they have construct minions available, I'm just not getting any mileage out of them. This is unfortunate, because they are often thematically appropriate (I have a dungeon concept based on a colony of Derro intending to make an insane machine to drill down to and free a rajah), but it's tough to make it an artificer when I could have a wizard in charge instead and it'd be a boss that players could take seriously.
NthDegree256 04-17-07, 10:04 PM	So overplay the magic items. The DMG recommends that an NPC with a magic item creation feat should have a 70% discount on items of that type when you're buying their equipment; as an artificer with a craft reserve, I'd make that a 60% or even 50% discount. Or throw out the appropriate wealth amount entirely and just load him down with magic rings, wands, capes and helms and boots and the like. Load up his minions with magic gear, too.
DyloniusFunk 04-17-07, 10:29 PM	So overplay the magic items. The DMG recommends that an NPC with a magic item creation feat should have a 70% discount on items of that type when you're buying their equipment; as an artificer with a craft reserve, I'd make that a 60% or even 50% discount. Or throw out the appropriate wealth amount entirely and just load him down with magic rings, wands, capes and helms and boots and the like. Load up his minions with magic gear, too. of course all that magic gear will end up in the hands of your players unless your one of those DM that has everything the boss was sueing disapepar when the PC kill him.
cancerousmango 04-18-07, 02:09 PM	of course all that magic gear will end up in the hands of your players unless your one of those DM that has everything the boss was sueing disapepar when the PC kill him.And therin lies the conundrum. You have an artificer with a wicked combo of items, say hello to your overpowered players in the event of anything other than a TPK.
Cifer 04-18-07, 02:32 PM	Well, it's a BBEG, so you might bend the rules a little. Say he's linked to the power of the Raja slowly pouring from the widening gap in its prison which encases the artificer in a forcefield. He can't be harmed - but he can be bullrushed into the shaft his drilling thingy is digging and if you destroy the drilling thingy, pretty explosions are sure to follow, blocking the path out of the prison forever (*) and leaving the BBEG's gear out of reach. Alternatively, the fight is such that the invincible BBEG and his (most definitely vincible) henchmen have to be kept busy while the players try to destroy the massive drilling engine. When the engine is destroyed and the Raja resealed, the Raja's powers leave the BBEG who messily explodes. His gear is lost, although a conveniently located cache of his work may still serve as loot. (*) Forever of course means "until the next BBEG somehow learns of the whole mess and tries to excavate the spot" - see The Mummy Returns Now for the actual fight: An artificer such as this one probably has quite a few golems and other constructs with him, which you can use as henchmen as you see fit. Further, staffs are used as if the caster was the one casting the spell, so his full level applies. For lower levels, wand mastery also works.
Alex_ 04-18-07, 02:54 PM	And therin lies the conundrum. You have an artificer with a wicked combo of items, say hello to your overpowered players in the event of anything other than a TPK. Isn't it possible to make magical items that ONLY work for a particular class, race, alignment, trigger, etc? Only someone with UMD high enough could use them then, and for them, you can have nasty side-effects. I don't think any BBEG is going to make a bunch of super powerful magical items that just anyone can walk around and use. It should be something with enough safeguards built in to make sure that when you lose it, your enemy doesn't gain some massive advantage. And of course there's plot depenent stuff you can do. For the final battle, the BBEG binds himself to the body of a warforged Juggernaut, gets his hands on an Eldritch Machine, or something similar.
Nived 04-18-07, 03:12 PM	Golems, Lots of golems. Golems with customized stats, weaponry and abilities.
DyloniusFunk 04-18-07, 03:22 PM	Isn't it possible to make magical items that ONLY work for a particular class, race, alignment, trigger, etc? Only someone with UMD high enough could use them then, and for them, you can have nasty side-effects. I don't think any BBEG is going to make a bunch of super powerful magical items that just anyone can walk around and use. It should be something with enough safeguards built in to make sure that when you lose it, your enemy doesn't gain some massive advantage. Sure you can do that, if you want a room full of angry players. "Wow Steve, gotta say that was a greatr fight, one of the group si dead and the rest of us are barely makng it but hey at least we're gonna get some good gear out of all this. At least we would if you had actually given this bastard SOMETHING WE COULD USE!" Yes realistically that is what would happen but since when is D&D reality?
Nived 04-18-07, 03:24 PM	Which is why heavily enchanted Golems make a nice alternative. Perhaps a Warforged could use some of these magic componants but by and large they'd be useless to the party or just written off as destroyed when the golems go down.
mahavira 04-18-07, 04:23 PM	Which is why heavily enchanted Golems make a nice alternative. Perhaps a Warforged could use some of these magic componants but by and large they'd be useless to the party or just written off as destroyed when the golems go down. This is my usual strategy for warforged composite plating enchantments. I'd probably allow an artificer to recover some craft pool from the dead warforged, but nobody else can really get anything from them. I'd probably include some unusual components that are somewhat compatible (they require some time and money to install properly, kind of like retooling someone else's full plate) just to reward any warforged PC for sticking it out (the last warforged in a game I ran came to a number of unpleasant fates: disabled and nearly carted off for 'reprogramming' by the Order of the Emerald Claw, sent flying by a charging rhino, who, mimicking elephants, decided to bury the again disabled warforged beneath a dung heap, and finally killed while invisible (the enemy loremaster had see invisible up before the fight started) and carted off, again by the Emerald Claw).
yossarius 04-18-07, 05:22 PM	The key here is to build some cool combos using items that your players can't easily duplicate. So, if yuo need to combine three magical effects to do something really cool, have two of those items be charged items, which each possess only a few charges left. If the PCs are lucky, they might defeat the bad guy when each item has maybe a single charge left, which means if they want to be able to use the effect they'll have to shell out big money to have them recharged. You might also keep in mind what "BBEG" stands for. It's not supposed to be a generic term for a level boss. The artificer may have created a super-powerful item the has slowly destroyed his sanity. PCs who want to hang on to an item like that, just because it's powerful, tend to get what they deserve. When Spiderman defeated Doc Oc in the movie, he didn't try to keep the robot arms for his own use. Why not? I mean, they were, like, near artifact level, weren't they? Just think about how powerful Spiderman could have been with them. Who cares if they took Octavius over? He was just an NPC, right? That could never happen to Spiderman. He's the PC.
RageMage 04-18-07, 05:34 PM	Uh, what does bbeg stand for? I'm going to assume it means "big bad evil guy" and go from there. An artificer isn't supposed to be the guy who goes, "Aha, you have foiled my evil minons, and now you must faces ME!" He's the guy who goes, "Oh, crap. You have foiled all my evil minions, CREATIVE ESCAPE PLAN!" That, and like everyone's been saying: Golems, homunculi, warforged minions with death chain-saw arms of doom. Y'know, the basics.
The White Sorcerer 04-18-07, 06:14 PM	Uh, what does bbeg stand for? I'm going to assume it means "big bad evil guy" and go from there. 100% correct.
dutchmason 04-18-07, 07:49 PM	Golems, Lots of golems. Golems with customized stats, weaponry and abilities. Frankly I agree but two words i think sum it up, Constructs, scrollie-ollies! Because the rouges will hate you and the other -ficers will love you. Scrolls make him a wizard in a book, you've got just as much versatility for that encounter as your average wizard, probably more with infusions like the spell-like ability one. If you want him to be mean give him golems, the new scarecrow in the recent dragon, and also runic guardians and likewise, something that boosts him as well. It also looks like you're emphasizing the wizi-ness of the artificer, make him a smasher, infusions, magic weapons he can be as effective or more than a fighter particularly if he uses cleric buffs, infusions, and even more so if he's a -forged and can use the special constructy infusions. Peace out.
DwarfPcfan 04-19-07, 12:08 PM	It should be taken into account a few things with effective BBEGs they need minions, gear, tactical advantage! Part of what makes an effective villain is having a capable combat butler on hand... Say you have a 10th level artificer as the big bad evil. Sure when your 9th level party faces him, he's only a 10th level artificer. But his lieutenants are warforged fighter5/rogue2 and a changeling illusionist3/master specialist4... His lair is ridden with traps... And he has about 5-6 fighter2/rogue1 minions to help with flanks... And then he wips out his wands of slow, hold person, scorching ray etc Then the players go: OH CRAP! he does not need a million magic items just the goons and lair to maximize the strenght of a few well chosen magic items...
Nived 04-19-07, 01:08 PM	Here's an idea, his lair should be more of a factory, a workshop, a foundry, something with a lot of tools, and dangerous equipment around. Which makes animate object all that more fun, just imagine a highly dangerous industrial area where all the pointy things come to life. Traps, if he's an arficier he can probably set up some nasty traps if he knows the party is coming. Watch Saw III for inspiration on traps in an industrial site. Escape plans, many many escape plans. Oh yeah, and golems.
Kamikaze Chicken 04-19-07, 01:33 PM	Personally if your going to have an artificer BBEG and you dont want to do the whole, overpowering loot, scenario have him activate his "lst resort" a magical device designed to blow up the building, along with his research. Give the pcs x# of rounds to get the hell back out of the place, avoiding falling blocks, and the like with reflex saves. and ofcourse as soon as they are almost out the door, one of the bbegs earlier defeated henchment come back all -half constructy, and they have to fight their way to survival. No un necesary equipment drops, lots of fun with the "escape or tpk type thing. and who doesnt love a half machine end boss that is weaker than th ebbeg and justa nnoying? KAMIKAZE! :chicken:
mahavira 04-19-07, 03:06 PM	Well, the idea was to make the part of the dungeon where the Derro live one giant steampunk machine, so the dangerous industrial area is definately on. The general idea was to make something of a megadungeon with different parts having different themes (just got dungeonscape, in case you can't tell...), the Derro area is all clockwork gears and steam tubes (with golems, half golems, and pseudo-warforged), the Illithid area is made of flesh (perhaps a giant creature they're trying to work out how to 'drive'), a glass dungeon submerged in an underwater lake for Kuo Toa and Aboleth (there are diving bell style entries into the water, and the dungeon itself is divided in two, with open water between the two parts), a bone dungeon run by a necromancer/servant of the Keeper, and I was undecided about where the githyanki live, or the heretical Drow silver flame worshippers (they consider the devils of shavarrath to be the spiritual heirs of the coatl (fire doesn't cleanse, it blackens, according to Silent Hill)) who are there to stop the Derro.
Cifer 04-19-07, 06:09 PM	@Mahavira A word of caution: Don't overdo it. I don't know the backstory of your campaign, but this sounds a little extreme, especially when stuffed into one single dungeon complex. Two themes are usually enough and focus the players on the story instead of just making them confused with all the different stuff. (fire doesn't cleanse, it blackens, according to Silent Hill) Since you know the greatest of all games (or at least the film): Use it. The Raja, while not exactly Daelkyr, don't seem to be the most sane guys. Make one entire session where the slowly awakening Raja touches the minds of the characters and they descend into communal hallucinations. Put aside the rules (D20 is awful for true horror games) for that one session and just play. Use every tool of horror you have learnt and have a little fun. Oh, and set a good athmosphere - start the game late, play in a mostly dark room and use some music (the soundtrack of SH is great for that, obviously).
mahavira 04-19-07, 06:40 PM	@Mahavira A word of caution: Don't overdo it. I don't know the backstory of your campaign, but this sounds a little extreme, especially when stuffed into one single dungeon complex. Two themes are usually enough and focus the players on the story instead of just making them confused with all the different stuff. Perhaps I'm just too used to epic length Japanese dungeon games, or perhaps rather than a dungeon complex it would be better described as an Eberron underdark campaign set in Khyber. As to the Silent Hill elements, it would be a great idea to have an area where the rajah's dreams touch the mortal realm. Much food for thought...
cancerousmango 04-20-07, 01:24 AM	Experiencing the dream of a Rajah would be the most intense high/seizure ever. Imagine watching all three Lord of the Rings Movies (in reverse and slow motion), every single episode of The Price is Right, every David Lynch and Takeshi Miike film ever made, and everyone you know being eaten by centipedes while they smother you in birthday cake...all at once, in the same instant. Now imagine that happening every millisecond for even one second. This is why you never ever touch a Rajah's dream. Ever.
Lord Psynister 04-21-07, 01:48 PM	Come on guys! What evil artificer isn't going to have a self-destruct device set to throw a handfull of of fireballs and/or contingent-teleport him away when he gets below a certain HP amount? It's been a while since the last time I even got to play, much less read my books, but I don't see what the guy couldn't use a fireball spell centered on himself and willing fail his saving throw, and the saves of any items he's wearing. I don't remember that being within the rules, but I don't think there's been any mention of not being able to do it either. "You think you're about to get all my potions and scrolls, don't you? Yeah! Well suck on this! **BOOOOM!**" Kind of hard to snatch up the goodies when they've all been consumed in a fiery explosion. I don't know, it's been forever since I even picked up my books.
Logos7 04-21-07, 01:57 PM	Also , If your willing to use thrall items from whereever i saw it, PCs: Thank god for these artificer bane arrows and chainsaws ABBEG: AHAHAHAHAH PCs: Why Aint these doing crap and why is his necklace glowing now? ABBEG: HAHAHAHAHAH also Fire Traps / Explosive Runes /Contingent Shatter Spells / Blasting Runes attuned to true faithful minions. Between the Trap CR and the wantonon Hp loss/Destruction of stuff should help keep the Party both on their toes, spending money ( Probably on Scrolls of Dispel Magic ,and extra healing potions) and of course spread out the love (randomize for if they are trapped) to help with the huge influx that the party will be getting of course this can also be softened by removing the hoard at the end of the dungeon, and of course this means that he spent it outfitting his minions. Win the dungeon and the previous dungeon owner's debt Logo
hecknoshow 04-30-07, 06:54 AM	Everyone here is presuming your bbeg is going to kill the PC's if he wins. Why not make him way more powerful then the party and take them prisoner as a gift for the rajah upon his arrival. Then the PC's can escape or be rescued and sabotage the drill without fighting the bbeg, but just sneaking around and avoiding him. Then you could use him as a recuring villan. If not he can teleport out (or dimension door for slightly lower level), even a haste/expeditios retreat/fly spell could work. Treasure could be a convenient cache of items left behind or just some gear the bbeg dropped(or both).
Kid SixXx 04-30-07, 07:52 AM	Well, if it helps one of my current BBEG's is an artificer. He's an member of House Cannith but secretly heads up a criminal organization known as the Pilifired Wand (the group introed in a recent module in Dungeon magazine). I liked the dynamic of the Camona Tong (ie. using a criminal organization to support political leverage) from the ES: Morrowind game, so I am doing something similar with The Pilfired Wand. My Cannith scion secretly plans to topple the leadership of Cannith West (he does not realize that getting rid of Jorlanna may actually get him more cheers than boos) & eventually supplant Merrix as the force of unification in the House. The serial killer WF Artificer known as Copper (from the Dungeon magazine module, Steel Shadows) is another good take on the artificer as BBEG.
Evilmonster 05-01-07, 01:42 AM	Of course, if he's THE villian, after the players beat him the campain's probably over anyway. Just make sure that he's easly able to defeat the party (in a manor that leaves them alive, mostly alive, or at least the cleric alive) until the final showdown at the end of the game, and then they can loot his body all they want aftert that because they'll be making new characters for the next campaign anyway.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-01-07, 02:34 AM	I think the issue is how they're used. Artificers (and other support classes) generally aren't good as combat encounters. They work much better as a Moriarty type who is a threat because of the resources he commands and how well he commands them, not because he's necessarily all that dangerous in a face to face confrontation. For that sort of character, defeating them is more a matter of resource denial and blocking their objectives, particularly if this is sufficient to cause them to lose their status or standing - as might happen if (for example) the NPC is a member of the Aurum and/or is using his current level of influence and resources to keep the authorities (legal or shady) from moving against him.
Kryptonian Scion 05-01-07, 09:17 AM	I have some stats for an artificer of around 7th level, which I used for a villain quite some time ago. I wanted him to be formidable, but 100% legal within the standard D&D rules. His gear is slightly over the NPC treasure value for his level, but his repertoire consists primarily of wands and other consumable items. I had some help building him from a rules lawyer/power gamer friend of mine (I can't optimize for crap - I take feats like Research and Relic Hunter), so the stats are in an email account that I will have to access later today. When I get home from work, I'll post them.
Kryptonian Scion 05-01-07, 07:42 PM	I didn't do much editing on this, so forgive any errors. The encounter was a hit-and-run along catwalks, suspended over magma-filled chasms. I give my PCs 32 point-buy characters, and stat villains equally. (The artificer received a stat boost to Dex at level 4, and Con at level 8.) I gave this NPC a few homonculi as well, to make the battle a little tougher. 9th Level Human Artificer Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Con 11 (+0) Int 16 (+3) Wis 10 (+0) Chr 16 (+3) HP: 34 AC: 13 (Flat Footed 10) Fort Save: +3 Reflex Save: +6 Will Save: +6 Base Attack +6/+1 Melee +5 Ranged +9 Skills: Concentration (12 ranks) +12 Disable Device (12 ranks) +15 Knowledge Arcana (12 ranks) +15 Search (12 ranks) +15 Spellcraft (5 ranks) +8 Use Magic Device (12 ranks) +15 (activate wand +19) Languages: Common + 3 Feats: Heroic spirit Two Weapon Fighting Quick Draw Quicken Spell(B) Dual Wand Wielder twin spell(B) Wand mastery Abilities: Artificer Knowledge Artisan Bonus Disable Trap Metamagic spell trigger Infusions: 1st Level - 3+1 2nd Level - 3+1 3rd Level - 2+1 Items: Wand of Magic Missile (9th Level) 20 Charges Wand of Fire Orb (7th Level) 10 Charges Wand of Dimension Door (7th Level) 3 Charges Wand of Greater Invisibility (7th Level) 2 Charges 2 potions Cure Serious Wounds -------- I was not able to afford any of the cool new artificer items with 13,000 so you can add them if you want. twin spells cost 5 charges Quicken spells cost 5 charges each turn choose which wand is off hand and it uses 1 extra charge The Idea is turn one cast Greater Invisibility and dimension door across the chasm turn 2 cast Quicken Magic Missile(5d4 +5), then Twin Magic Missile(10d4 +10) and Twin Fire Orb (9d6 + 9d6 -- 2d6 extra damage each due to wand mastery) the fire orb is for the casters / whoever is the biggest threat, as a failed Fort save Dazes them for 1 round While invisible, all the fire orb touch attacks are flat footed!! After that you still have have 10 charges with the Missiles and 4 charges with the Orb and still have either 1 or 2 charges of Dimension door (put a chasm between them) and 0 or 1 use of Invisibility (depending on which was off hand). I used this as-is and I am not a rules expert - so I apologize in advance to those who find huge holes in this. However, if it works, he makes for a great BBEG fight.
TheAnthroDM 05-01-07, 11:04 PM	See the Unofficial Artificer Guide, Create Golems, and make a timebomb for when the artificer looses so that his extremly good equipment is destroyed in a grand explosion.
mahavira 05-01-07, 11:18 PM	Thanks for the sample stats. Using dual metamagiced wands was not something that had occurred to me (probably because PCs probably wouldn't do it because it chews through charges so quickly and unlike NPCs they care what happens after the fight is done). I'm also not familliar with the unofficial artificer guide, is that a thread on one of the boards or some other website?
TheAnthroDM 05-01-07, 11:27 PM	Unofficial Artificer Player's Guide 3.0 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11846874#post11846874)
crashbangboom 05-07-07, 09:22 PM	Why not tie his strength(power) to a certain location or eldrich engine that the PC's have to destroy to reign in his power level, all the while they're being attacked by the art and his ready-built army.