Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BuddyL33 11-16-04, 10:56 AM	In one of the games I play in, a question was posed by one of the other players (an experienced DM), to myself (another experienced DM), and the DM of the group. The character played by the player posing the question is a Artificer1/Bard1/Rogue1. The charcter wants to make a scroll as an Artificer using a UMD check to "fake" being a 3rd lvl Cleric so that he can make a scroll of Cure Moderate Wounds. Because CMW is also in the Bard spell list he could then cast it as a Bard and simply make the normal failure check for casting a spell from a scroll that is more powerfull than you can cast. Basically a 15% failure chance. This made me pose the following question. If he is mimicing a 3rd level cleric does he create a Divine scroll of Cure Moderate Wounds? If so, would the Bard be able to cast the spell from the divine scroll since a Bard casts Arcane spells, even though the arcane version of the spell is in his spell list?
MarkB 11-16-04, 11:09 AM	I presume you meant Cure moderate Wounds - a Cleric would have to be 5th level to cast Cure Serious Wounds. Artificer scrolls are either divine or arcane, depending upon the spell scribed. If the spell appears on both arcane and divine lists, the artificer can choose whether to make it arcane or divine. However, if the artificer chooses to scribe this spell as a Bard spell, he must do so using the minimum Bard level required to cast it. Since that's 4th level, rather than 3rd level as it would be for a Cleric, he cannot create such a scroll as a 1st level artificer - and even if he could, he'd be trading the more difficult check to use the divine scroll for a more difficult check to create the higher-caster-level arcane scroll in the first place. EDIT: And just to clarify, whilst Spell Trigger items like wands only require that the spell be on your spell list, Spell Completion items like scrolls must also be of the correct type - arcane or divine - for you to use them.
Neofish 11-16-04, 05:33 PM	I presume you meant Cure moderate Wounds - a Cleric would have to be 5th level to cast Cure Serious Wounds. Artificer scrolls are either divine or arcane, depending upon the spell scribed. If the spell appears on both arcane and divine lists, the artificer can choose whether to make it arcane or divine. However, if the artificer chooses to scribe this spell as a Bard spell, he must do so using the minimum Bard level required to cast it. Since that's 4th level, rather than 3rd level as it would be for a Cleric, he cannot create such a scroll as a 1st level artificer - and even if he could, he'd be trading the more difficult check to use the divine scroll for a more difficult check to create the higher-caster-level arcane scroll in the first place. EDIT: And just to clarify, whilst Spell Trigger items like wands only require that the spell be on your spell list, Spell Completion items like scrolls must also be of the correct type - arcane or divine - for you to use them. I thought the Artificer had finale say on weither it was arcane or divine, reguardless of what list it was taken from.?
Edymnion 11-16-04, 06:22 PM	I thought the Artificer had finale say on weither it was arcane or divine, reguardless of what list it was taken from.?Nope. They use their UMD to fake making magical items, they don't actually make them the way everybody else does. If he fakes a scroll using the cleric caster level, then he is faking a divine scroll. The question here, really, is "Can an arcane Bard cast from a Divine scroll, assuming he has that same spell on his arcane spell list?"
Neofish 11-16-04, 06:33 PM	No, because it states that a caster can only cast a spell from his list if it is of a corrisponding type, i.e. Divine caster, Divine scrolls only.
MarkB 11-16-04, 06:36 PM	I thought the Artificer had finale say on weither it was arcane or divine, reguardless of what list it was taken from.? Nope. They use their UMD to fake making magical items, they don't actually make them the way everybody else does. If he fakes a scroll using the cleric caster level, then he is faking a divine scroll. The question here, really, is "Can an arcane Bard cast from a Divine scroll, assuming he has that same spell on his arcane spell list?" Here's the relevant quote on whether Artificer scrolls are arcane or divine: A Having had more discussions with the development team, here are a few answers to a few common artificer questions: 1. When an artificer makes a magic item such as a scroll, it is considered to be arcane or divine based on the spells involved; if it could go either way, the artificer decides. It is up to the DM to decide if an arcane scroll created in this way can be copied by a wizard; if a DM wants to deny this to restrict access to spells, that's his privilege. And here's the rule for whether arcane casters can use divine scrolls: To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) The user must have the spell on his or her class list. The user must have the requisite ability score.
SirLoin 11-16-04, 06:41 PM	This is straight outta Using Magic Items Part II This was specifically for scrolls. To use a spell completion item safely, you must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If you can't already cast the spell, there's a chance you'll make a mistake, as noted on page 238 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. To activate a spell trigger item with an arcane spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast arcane spells. Likewise, to activate a spell trigger item with a divine spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast divine spells. If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0. If a scroll has a caster level higher than your own, you have to make a Spellcraft check (DC = 1 + the scroll's caster level) to activate the scroll. If you fail the check, you don't activate the scroll and the scroll isn't used up.
Edymnion 11-16-04, 07:13 PM	Here's the relevant quote on whether Artificer scrolls are arcane or divine:Yes, but I at least choose to read this that, if there is a choice, you can make it either one you like. However, for a first lvl artificer, there isn't a choice. They are incapable of making the bardic scroll, because they can't make the crafter level. They can make the divine scroll, though. No real choice here, its gotta be Divine. As soon as they would be able to make it using the bardic list, then they could pick which one they wanted to use.
MarkB 11-16-04, 07:21 PM	Yes, but I at least choose to read this that, if there is a choice, you can make it either one you like. However, for a first lvl artificer, there isn't a choice. They are incapable of making the bardic scroll, because they can't make the crafter level. They can make the divine scroll, though. No real choice here, its gotta be Divine. As soon as they would be able to make it using the bardic list, then they could pick which one they wanted to use. Absolutely - that's my position too, and I wasn't trying to use the quote to dispute it. Whichever version the Artificer chooses to make - arcane or divine - he has to meet the minimum caster level requirements for that version of the spell.