Ascetic and Devoted Feats in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ascetic and Devoted Feats in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fizzbang
01-10-05, 03:38 PM The Complete Adventurer contains a selection of feats like "Ascetic Mage" and "Devoted Rogue", which allow a player to freely multiclass between a monk and sorcerer or a paladin and rogue (respectively), while also letting them add their class levels for various monk/paladin features. It's pretty powerful, but opens up the doors for some very interesting character concepts: for example, the "Ascetic Hunter" makes for an interesting Monk/Ranger mix.

But it does seem to entirely overwhelm the "Monastic/Knightly Training" feats, as they provide all of that and more for the same cost in feats. They have a slight prerequisite, meaning that the player has to play without the benefit for a few levels, but it's not a massive disadvantage, and certainly not enough of one to make a person want to chose the Training over the new feats.

What do other DMs think about this? Would you allow your player to take these feats? Would you make the Training feat a prerequisite for the new feat, or perhaps a slightly more powerful version of that feat? Would you allow them to trade in their Training feat for one of the new ones? Are they stepping on Eberron's toes?

And, on another note, if you are in favor of them, would you consider making a monk/soulknife "Ascetic Blade" or monk/psion "Ascetic Mind" feat to go along with the ideas presented in the latest Dragonshard article?
Laskaw
01-10-05, 05:00 PM Personally I've got an unstated house rule that paladins and monks can multiclass freely, so I ignore the Training feats anyway. (I'd prefer it if a player stuck to the standard rules, but if one asked I'd probably let them multiclass freely.) I'd have to see the feats to be able to otherwise judge their power. Dunno if I'd come up with synergetic ones for psionic combinations -- I suppose if I or a player came up with a good idea it wouldn't hurt.
Gurv
01-10-05, 05:11 PM I would suggest not allowing those feats to just any player who wanted to grab one and multiclass. Instead, make them part of the training granted by a group. There might be an order of Sorcerer/Monks in Eberron. It doesn't sound as if these feats are any different from the Monastic/Knight Training feats.

All this changes is that instead of the player grabbing a feat whenever he wants, he should let you know what he plans on taking next. Then you can say "before you take that feat, you have to train with the Sorcae Monks of the Ghalar Mountains", or whatever fits your game. Don't force the player to quest halfway around Eberron to get a feat (unless you want him to do so, and give him enough warning so he isn't holding back levels), all he has to do it put forth a little effort in explaining why he is able to do something generally considered impossible.
fizzbang
01-10-05, 06:16 PM I would suggest not allowing those feats to just any player who wanted to grab one and multiclass. Instead, make them part of the training granted by a group. There might be an order of Sorcerer/Monks in Eberron. It doesn't sound as if these feats are any different from the Monastic/Knight Training feats.

Oh, I definitely agree that any feat should have an in-game explanation, and the more powerful ones should certainly have an organization related to them, but I think it might help if I transcribe one or two of these feats. The Ascetic/Devoted feats offer significantly more than the Training feats do. For example, the Monk-Sorcerer combo is presented below:

Ascetic Mage:
You practice an unusual martial art that mixes self-taught spellcasting and melee attacks to great effect.

Prerequisites:
Improved Unarmed Strike, ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells.

Benefit:
As a swift action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, you can sacrifice one of your daily allotment of spells to add a bonus to your unarmed strike attack rolls and damage rolls for 1 round. The bonus is equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. The spell is lost as if you had cast it.
If you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your AC bonus. For example, a human 4th-level sorcerer/1st-level monk would have a +1 AC bonus as if she were a 5th-level monk. If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a (sic) unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC.
In addition, you can multiclass freely between the sorcerer and monk classes. You must still remain lawful in order to continue advancing as a monk. You still face the normal XP penalties for having multiple classes more than one level apart.

Hopefully, transcribing that isn't a violation of board rules.

As you can see, the free multiclassing is practically an afterthought in the rest of the feat. And much more powerful, with only a minor prerequisite.
Zalaz Mavi
01-10-05, 06:24 PM I, for one, allow my players to freely multiclass, especially Fighters, as skills and class abilities play a more important role in survival than sheer combat ability. Personally, I think the Ascetic and Devoted feats are superior to the Training feats as they provide a synergy benefit beyond simple multiclassing. As long as a character met the feat and in-game requirements, I'd allow the feats...
motorfirebox
01-10-05, 06:25 PM i would consider having the knightly/monastic training feats simply remove the multiclassing restriction for all other classes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fizzbang 01-10-05, 03:38 PM	The Complete Adventurer contains a selection of feats like "Ascetic Mage" and "Devoted Rogue", which allow a player to freely multiclass between a monk and sorcerer or a paladin and rogue (respectively), while also letting them add their class levels for various monk/paladin features. It's pretty powerful, but opens up the doors for some very interesting character concepts: for example, the "Ascetic Hunter" makes for an interesting Monk/Ranger mix. But it does seem to entirely overwhelm the "Monastic/Knightly Training" feats, as they provide all of that and more for the same cost in feats. They have a slight prerequisite, meaning that the player has to play without the benefit for a few levels, but it's not a massive disadvantage, and certainly not enough of one to make a person want to chose the Training over the new feats. What do other DMs think about this? Would you allow your player to take these feats? Would you make the Training feat a prerequisite for the new feat, or perhaps a slightly more powerful version of that feat? Would you allow them to trade in their Training feat for one of the new ones? Are they stepping on Eberron's toes? And, on another note, if you are in favor of them, would you consider making a monk/soulknife "Ascetic Blade" or monk/psion "Ascetic Mind" feat to go along with the ideas presented in the latest Dragonshard article?
Laskaw 01-10-05, 05:00 PM	Personally I've got an unstated house rule that paladins and monks can multiclass freely, so I ignore the Training feats anyway. (I'd prefer it if a player stuck to the standard rules, but if one asked I'd probably let them multiclass freely.) I'd have to see the feats to be able to otherwise judge their power. Dunno if I'd come up with synergetic ones for psionic combinations -- I suppose if I or a player came up with a good idea it wouldn't hurt.
Gurv 01-10-05, 05:11 PM	I would suggest not allowing those feats to just any player who wanted to grab one and multiclass. Instead, make them part of the training granted by a group. There might be an order of Sorcerer/Monks in Eberron. It doesn't sound as if these feats are any different from the Monastic/Knight Training feats. All this changes is that instead of the player grabbing a feat whenever he wants, he should let you know what he plans on taking next. Then you can say "before you take that feat, you have to train with the Sorcae Monks of the Ghalar Mountains", or whatever fits your game. Don't force the player to quest halfway around Eberron to get a feat (unless you want him to do so, and give him enough warning so he isn't holding back levels), all he has to do it put forth a little effort in explaining why he is able to do something generally considered impossible.
fizzbang 01-10-05, 06:16 PM	I would suggest not allowing those feats to just any player who wanted to grab one and multiclass. Instead, make them part of the training granted by a group. There might be an order of Sorcerer/Monks in Eberron. It doesn't sound as if these feats are any different from the Monastic/Knight Training feats. Oh, I definitely agree that any feat should have an in-game explanation, and the more powerful ones should certainly have an organization related to them, but I think it might help if I transcribe one or two of these feats. The Ascetic/Devoted feats offer significantly more than the Training feats do. For example, the Monk-Sorcerer combo is presented below: Ascetic Mage: You practice an unusual martial art that mixes self-taught spellcasting and melee attacks to great effect. Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells. Benefit: As a swift action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, you can sacrifice one of your daily allotment of spells to add a bonus to your unarmed strike attack rolls and damage rolls for 1 round. The bonus is equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. The spell is lost as if you had cast it. If you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your AC bonus. For example, a human 4th-level sorcerer/1st-level monk would have a +1 AC bonus as if she were a 5th-level monk. If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a (sic) unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC. In addition, you can multiclass freely between the sorcerer and monk classes. You must still remain lawful in order to continue advancing as a monk. You still face the normal XP penalties for having multiple classes more than one level apart. Hopefully, transcribing that isn't a violation of board rules. As you can see, the free multiclassing is practically an afterthought in the rest of the feat. And much more powerful, with only a minor prerequisite.
Zalaz Mavi 01-10-05, 06:24 PM	I, for one, allow my players to freely multiclass, especially Fighters, as skills and class abilities play a more important role in survival than sheer combat ability. Personally, I think the Ascetic and Devoted feats are superior to the Training feats as they provide a synergy benefit beyond simple multiclassing. As long as a character met the feat and in-game requirements, I'd allow the feats...
motorfirebox 01-10-05, 06:25 PM	i would consider having the knightly/monastic training feats simply remove the multiclassing restriction for all other classes.