Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Streamweaver 01-12-05, 08:56 AM	We all know the general theme of Eberron is lower levels and few PC classes for the common man, but what about adventurers? What is your take on the average class and level distribution of adventurers in the world? Generally I would think actual adventurers would progress in level much closer to PCs and for the most part possess only PC classes. Assuming they are slightly above the "average" level of people in Eberron which seems to be about 3rd, where would adventurers fit into this? My take is a few levels above so 5th level or so. Now there wouldn't be many professional adventurers in the world, at least none that live past a few adventures. Still though in places like Sharn you could reasonably have a relatively high concentration of them, at least enough to support 2 profitable adventurer guilds. If this is true these blocks of adventurers represent a substantial power block in the world, or at least regionally. Do you see this modifying the power structure of places or Khorvair in general? How about Stormreach. Groups like the Dreaming Dark or The Lords of Dust may be more concerned at drawing the attention of adventuring parties than they are of whole governments.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 01-12-05, 09:14 AM	Actually the problem I find with Eberron is just that. All NPCs at the highest so far are only 10th lv, maybe a little higher. In my oppinion, I would say that their are higher level NPC just for the fact that war, especially a WW or mass war such as the one that just ended, would infact create tougher and better NPCs. That is why I use the standard out of the DMG, because well it's much more realistic. I mean to say that an 8th lv NPC is the leader of hit squad out of Breland is one thing, but to say that an 8th lv Cleric leads the largest temple in the world that is dedicated to his god is another. I firmly believe that you should use the standard chart in the DMG. But also I would note that I don't believe that there are any Epic level people out there.
Streamweaver 01-12-05, 09:20 AM	I think your points are very valid, but I'm generally trying to discuss the reality of adventurer levels and classes given the official stances on average levels.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-12-05, 09:33 AM	Adventurers are the heroes of the setting; I expect the average level to be the same as on other worlds. Actually the problem I find with Eberron is just that. All NPCs at the highest so far are only 10th lv, maybe a little higher. In my oppinion, I would say that their are higher level NPC just for the fact that war, especially a WW or mass war such as the one that just ended, would infact create tougher and better NPCs. That is why I use the standard out of the DMG, because well it's much more realistic. I mean to say that an 8th lv NPC is the leader of hit squad out of Breland is one thing, but to say that an 8th lv Cleric leads the largest temple in the world that is dedicated to his god is another. I firmly believe that you should use the standard chart in the DMG. But also I would note that I don't believe that there are any Epic level people out there. The highest level evil NPC who can fight is 17th-level, and she's a lich (with another stupid template on top). The leader of the hobgoblin empire is 13th-level, and he's not the most powerful hobgoblin out there. The Lord of Blades is 12th-level. I don't know where you got "max of 10th-level" from, since that source is clearly inaccurate. The "typical" good-aligned king is 4th to 13th level, but since they're good aligned, the PCs aren't supposed to fight them. Furthermore, when you're a 4th-level king, you still get your father's magic equipment (worth quite a lot, boosting your CR) and you get your own 3 or 4 personal bodyguards (10th-level paladins) from House Deneith which all share damage with you. Booya! This makes killing the 4th-level king just a little difficult. The highest level cleric is around 16th-level... but only when she's at her temple. I don't know where you got 8th-level from.
Altaris 01-12-05, 09:48 AM	I would refer you all to the stat blacks for various NPCs of the Dragonmarked Houses. Orien for example, is quite adventerous. Such individuals are often 5th of 6th level, but only half of that is 'heroic' class levels. The PCs themselves /are/ heroic, and as such are the 'cream of the crop.' Some NPCs out there are in the same 'stature.' But for the most part, I'd say very, very few adventurers will be able to match the PCs beyond eighth level or so.
debatedeus 01-12-05, 09:54 AM	The highest level evil NPC who can fight is 17th-level, and she's a lich (with another stupid template on top). The leader of the hobgoblin empire is 13th-level, and he's not the most powerful hobgoblin out there. The Lord of Blades is 12th-level. I don't know where you got "max of 10th-level" from, since that source is clearly inaccurate. And even these numbers aren't entirely the case. The Lord of Blades was created at 12th-level because they want him to be someone the PCs can attack or have dealings with early on. It is expected that if you use the Lord of Blades in your campaign, you increase his level as time goes on. My PCs have just hit level 13 and the Lord of Blades is now about to break the Epic Barrier. Part of the fun of any adventure setting is that the PCs need to "reach" to fight something or someone, to become more than what they were to do something truely heroic. The action along the way can be "over-the-top" or "pulpy" but--in my mind at least--the campaign should be about the growth and changes of the characters. The "typical" good-aligned king is 4th to 13th level, but since they're good aligned, the PCs aren't supposed to fight them. Furthermore, when you're a 4th-level king, you still get your father's magic equipment (worth quite a lot, boosting your CR) and you get your own 3 or 4 personal bodyguards (10th-level paladins) from House Deneith which all share damage with you. Booya! This makes killing the 4th-level king just a little difficult. The simple fact is that there are measures that would prevent adventurers from teleporting into a palace and killing King Kaius, or any of the other leaders of the remaining nations. If the PCs really set their mind to it, they could kill a king, but what's the point, besides becoming cold-blooded murders. If any DMs PCs are thinking about raiding a capital and killing a king, tell the story, and be true to the consequences. One of my PC's said it best, "Because I have the ability to defeat every one of my collegues means that I have the responsibility to stop those that they cannot." The highest level cleric is around 16th-level... but only when she's at her temple. I don't know where you got 8th-level from. They actually errata'd that, she is an 18th level cleric when she is in Flamekeep, not just in the chamber of the Silver Flame.
Streamweaver 01-12-05, 09:56 AM	I would refer you all to the stat blacks for various NPCs of the Dragonmarked Houses. Orien for example, is quite adventerous. Such individuals are often 5th of 6th level, but only half of that is 'heroic' class levels. The PCs themselves /are/ heroic, and as such are the 'cream of the crop.' Some NPCs out there are in the same 'stature.' But for the most part, I'd say very, very few adventurers will be able to match the PCs beyond eighth level or so. I don't know that I agree with your take on these individuals. Sure they may have an adventure or two, but that is only a result of them trying to conduct other buisness. What I'm talking about are individuals who do nothing but adventure for a living, which there are in this world. So using your example, if some folks who are part time or incidental adventurers are 5th or 6th level, what is a professional adventurer? 7th and 8th level? We're starting to talk about serious power houses here if this were the case.
Bluebrush 01-12-05, 09:58 AM	In Eberron, power more often correlates to rank than to class level. A king has armies at his command. With a few directions he can order thousands of enemies to be killed, he can change the fate of the world with ease. An adventurer however, represents individual power. They can take down a dragon but even they couldn't conquer a nation of thier own. They'd need to use thier own soldiers. As rank does not correlate with level, a level 3 warrior could be a general. Sure, he's not too good when it comes to stabbing people to death, but he could be a brilliant strategist, trusted with an army of thousands. The adventuring types are not nescessarily all higher level. For modern man, climbing everest or even going to a country where people do not have running water is an adventurer. An adventurer could be a simple lowly treasure hunter. Not every trip to Xen'drik would involve battling giant monsters, and not every brief foray into the mournlands to snag some disguarded second hand weapons ends in death. I do think it's likely people would want to keep an eye on high level adventurers in case they moved against them, but I suspect the adventurer guids do not have a unified cause to unite behind, so the lords of dust and such would worry more about high level people or people who have moved against them.
Blizzard_Bobsan 01-12-05, 10:00 AM	There should be nothing "average" about adventurers - by definition they are extraordinary individuals, so they shouldn't be locked in a demographic chart.
Streamweaver 01-12-05, 10:19 AM	There should be nothing "average" about adventurers - by definition they are extraordinary individuals, so they shouldn't be locked in a demographic chart. Sorry but I think you're wrong. The truth is that DnD is built and run entirely from the point of view of adventurers and adventuring. This is exactly why there is such a disconnect when you try to define the rest of the world using a system that is primarily meant to deal with adventureing. While adventurers are not average people in the world, they are still the peer group for the players. Players should have some idea where they fit into the adventuring world and while I'm not suggesting demographics are in order, I am suggesting there can be some idea of how powerful other adventurers get in the world in general. While Eberron is generally lower level than most DnD settings, it's still DnD and adventuring as a full time profession exists not just for players but for other people in the world. This thread is an attempt to come to terms with that fact and have a discussion about the placement of professional adventurers.
Gurv 01-12-05, 10:34 AM	While Eberron is generally lower level than most DnD settings, it's still DnD and adventuring as a full time profession exists not just for players but for other people in the world. Why do you think that? The system being designed to describe the actions of adventurers isn't a reason to think that there are a lot of them. Its just that those half-dozen or so individuals are the only ones worth describing.
Blizzard_Bobsan 01-12-05, 10:48 AM	Sorry but I think you're wrong. The truth is that DnD is built and run entirely from the point of view of adventurers and adventuring. This is exactly why there is such a disconnect when you try to define the rest of the world using a system that is primarily meant to deal with adventureing. While adventurers are not average people in the world, they are still the peer group for the players. Players should have some idea where they fit into the adventuring world and while I'm not suggesting demographics are in order, I am suggesting there can be some idea of how powerful other adventurers get in the world in general. While Eberron is generally lower level than most DnD settings, it's still DnD and adventuring as a full time profession exists not just for players but for other people in the world. This thread is an attempt to come to terms with that fact and have a discussion about the placement of professional adventurers. I think I understood him - a "professional" adventurer is for example one of the members of the Clifftop guild. On pages 27-28 in the Sharn there is an entry "adventurer" as a possible occupation for every PC class. In my previous posting I was not referring to these people, I was thinking about the PC heroes (my mistake). edit: On topic. I think there should be such "professional" adventurers on all levels, starting from 1st and reaching to the highest in the demographics chart. I can't begin to estimate their average level, but I think that most of them will still be pretty low-level.
Streamweaver 01-12-05, 10:51 AM	Why do you think that? The system being designed to describe the actions of adventurers isn't a reason to think that there are a lot of them. Its just that those half-dozen or so individuals are the only ones worth describing. This isn't a guess, the book directly describes the fact that there are professional adventurers in the world. Two separate societies for them exist in Sharn alone and we're not just talking about couriers or mercenaries as there are whole other guilds for those, even the role of people who just go recover or find things is pretty well covered by an entire Dragonmarked House. So we aren’t talking about people hired for the odd task here and professional adventuring is a pretty well established reality in Eberron. That doesn't have to mean the numbers are vast, but they definitely exist and at no point has anyone suggested there a lot of them. As a DM you can declare there are only a half dozen adventurers in the world, but that just doesn't fit with the material as presented.
Streamweaver 01-12-05, 10:56 AM	I think I understood him - a "professional" adventurer is for example one of the members of the Clifftop guild. On pages 27-28 in the Sharn there is an entry "adventurer" as a possible occupation for every PC class. In my previous posting I was not referring to these people, I was thinking about the PC heroes (my mistake). Yep I definitly agree that adventurer doesn't nessisarily equal hero. I guess what I'm trying to get at with the topic is that a lot of good effort has been put into discussing the place non-adventurers have in the world of Eberron. I don't see a lot of good discussion on the place of the adventurers though and the reaction to the topic is a good example of that. It's almost as if people can't admit adventureres exist at all, which I think is as limited a view as the folks who insist Eberron must contain high level NPCs at every turn.
The Axeman Cometh 01-12-05, 11:18 AM	Yep I definitly agree that adventurer doesn't nessisarily equal hero. I guess what I'm trying to get at with the topic is that a lot of good effort has been put into discussing the place non-adventurers have in the world of Eberron. I don't see a lot of good discussion on the place of the adventurers though and the reaction to the topic is a good example of that. It's almost as if people can't admit adventureres exist at all, which I think is as limited a view as the folks who insist Eberron must contain high level NPCs at every turn. Here, here! I think this poster has brought up some excellent points, but the demographic distribution of adventurers varies according to some important sub-categories. I am of the opinion that "the average" member of the Clifftop or Deathsgate guilds, should such an individual exist, would be around 3rd level. These would be maybe 2 or 3 PC or near PC levels (ie. maybe one of these levels is in expert or warrior, but definitely not in commoner). I would have these as quite low-powered, on average, since members of these guilds are basically rent-a-muscle types. These Adventurer's guilds are basically employment agencies so I don't see the cream of the crop being members here in the long term. Mind you, this does not mean that a range of characters cannot join these guilds. I'd see a broad range from 1st level experts to maybe a 7th level badass if they have a reason to stay. Or more if it fits your story. I would see an average member of the Wayfarer's Foundation as being a lot tougher. This is a fellowship that has membership by invitation only, and that alone probably implies a more elite membership. I'd say the "average" Wayfarer, given the usual caveats about such a term, would be about level 5 or 6, maybe. Again, the organisation itself could have members ranging from 3 to high (isn't the leader about 9th level? I don't have the ECS to hand). Overall, counting the random wandering adventurers, I'd say that about 2 or 3 PC levels is about right. P
Altaris 01-12-05, 11:59 AM	Well, the way I handle such "professional adventurers" in my own campaign is story based. For example, one NPC I have ready for later on is a Dhakaani hobgoblin 'hunter.' A Ranger lvl 9 who hunts Darguunish and Marguulish goblinoids, and also humans. He is an elite hunter who leads a group of grunts across Khorvaire combating the 'honorless lesser goblins' and searching for Dhakaani artifacts. Basically, I create an NPC with a plot and story in mind and introduce them.
Gurv 01-12-05, 02:50 PM	I agree that there are NPC adventurers. I was just curious what you were pointing to which suggested it. The two guilds in Sharn certainly qualify. Just so long as we are drawing a clear line between career adventurers and heroes. I wouldn't expect to see NPC adventurers of more than EL 5. The average might be a little lower, say EL 3. That is enough adventurers for the culture to exist, but leave the more difficult things to the stars of the show. I'm not sure that this would represent a power block though. Adventurers, even ones who form guilds, tend to be highly competitive. Working together in groups of more than five or six is notoriously hard for them to do. The interests of adventurers are so varied that they can hardly be expected to have any kind of political agenda beyond lowering the price of letters of marque and legalizing bar brawls. Furthermore, they are by their very nature spread much too thin. The guildhouses would contain mostly retired, recovering, or posers at any given moment in time. So although I would caution against attacking the guildhouses, I don't think they would present much clout to the world in general.
Golbez57 01-12-05, 03:42 PM	Interesting discussion, everyone. I think the best cue we can take for "average adventurer level" is from the adventuring guilds fo Sharn, and City of Towers does provide us with average levels for them. After all, this is the melting pot of Khorvaire if such a term can apply to a fantasy setting. Of course, there are always outliers in any computation of averages, regardless of whether the mean, median, or mode is being considered. From there, I think individual DMs have to consider the physical environment in which the other adventurers are being encountered when considering what might be "typical" in that area. The more dangerous the locale, the higher the level of the adventurer. I doubt you'd find a LIVING 1st level adventurer deep in the Mournlands or the Demon Wastes, while at the same time, adventurers on the fringes of the Eldeen Reaches or stomping through the mountains of Darguun might very well be of that level. Even then, it depends on what brings an adventurer to that location. Going with the example of the Eldeen Reaches, a 1st level adventuring party might be there searching for the son of a noble who went missing during a fox hunt. However, if adventurers are therre with the purpose of investigating the appearance of a fiendish dire wolf, they're going to be quite a bit higher in level--but probably not much higher than 5th, or, hey, the PCs would be the ones tasked to the job, right? In a place like Stormreach, there is probably a huge spread of levels in adventurers. 1st level adventurers on a field assignment for graduate studies at Morgrave University might walk side-by-side with a group of 9th level explorers whose exploits deep in the mossed-over ruins of giant cities often appear in the Korranberg Chronicle. Just the guideline I'll be using for our campaign: most active field adventurers worth encountering will be of 3rd level, but only very rarely higher than 5th level.
DJDave 01-13-05, 03:28 AM	Well I have just taken the decision (with consultation with my players) to slow down the character progression so that we (they) spend longer as average adventurers around levels 3-6 as I do think that the average level even for adventurers is around 3. Having said that the Lord of Blades has not been trying to assemble his armies for all that long so its totally reasonable that he will be progressing too. I dont see my PCs attacking him for some time yet.