Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 09-18-04, 06:07 PM	Well, thats what it looks like. Pages 94 and 95, the stuff about the differant planes in the setting have two illustations of constillations. One could pass for Bahamut, and the other is a dead ringer for the five headed dragon queen, Tiamat. So, why do Bahamut and Tiamat get their own constillations in the Eberron sky? :D
Saurenda 09-18-04, 06:14 PM	What am I doing here? :D
ChrisTheS 09-18-04, 06:16 PM	In case you aren't familiar with the draconic pantheon, ALL the Eberron constellations are dragon gods. I assume this to be because the dragons themselves are the foremost practitioners of astrology in the world, hence they name the constellations after the true deities and not the silly gods and heroes of humanoid mythologies. A less fanciful assumption than that advanced by Dragonlance, but more realistic, methinks. I'm working on an Eberronian creation myth for use in my own games, which puts the draconic pantheon in the forefront: Io creates the dragon gods, who create the universe, and then birth the progenitor wyrms to create the world (in my version, Khyber is the child of Tiamat and Garyx, Siberys of Bahamut and Tamara, and Eberron has only one parent--Chronepsis).
Edymnion 09-18-04, 06:20 PM	Yes, I know about the ascended dragon gods, and that the constillations are named after them. However, Tiamat was the only 5 headed dragon I've ever heard of, and seeing a constillation of a 5 headed dragon sounds incredibly like the old girl to me.
Saurenda 09-18-04, 06:31 PM	Nevermind withdrawn, I lack the intelligence to read ChristheS's posts :cool:
ChrisTheS 09-18-04, 06:39 PM	Saurenda... you seem to have trouble reading my posts, as this is the second time you've mixed up something I've written. I said: Io created the dragon gods (Tiamat, Chronepsis, Tamara, etc). The dragon gods birthed the progenitor wyrms (Siberys, etc.)
Dauntless 09-18-04, 10:11 PM	Yes, I know about the ascended dragon gods, and that the constillations are named after them. However, Tiamat was the only 5 headed dragon I've ever heard of, and seeing a constillation of a 5 headed dragon sounds incredibly like the old girl to me. Because it is Tiamat. Look at page 130, the constellations chart.
Edymnion 09-18-04, 10:40 PM	Because it is Tiamat. Look at page 130, the constellations chart.Yeah, I also just spotted the two images in the Eberron Art Gallery, where they're labled as the Constellations of Bahamut and Tiamat. So some of the gods from the other settings DID make it into Eberron.
Somebloke 09-18-04, 10:44 PM	Yeah, I also just spotted the two images in the Eberron Art Gallery, where they're labled as the Constellations of Bahamut and Tiamat. So some of the gods from the other settings DID make it into Eberron. Sort of. As semi-mythical figures. It's not as though they're going to be flying around anytime soon.
Neofish 09-18-04, 10:46 PM	Only the Dragon gods, like in the movie dragonheart. only the most prominate dragons become "gods"
Nimrud 09-19-04, 12:24 AM	The question is: why? If the gods in Eberron are remote beings, why introduce two familiar D&D deities which have a real presence and stats in other D&D cosmologies? Doesn't it suggest that Eberron gods may be the same as 'normal' D&D gods, except they haven't made their presence felt as much? This makes me uncomfortable, as I really like the concept that faith and the gods are mysterious in Eberron. The reference to D&D deities detracts from this somewhat.
Kenzuki 09-19-04, 12:48 AM	Did it ever occur to you that the Eberron Tiamat and Bahamut might not be gods as in the other settings? I mean heck Bahamut and Tiamat are in numerous Final Fantasy games but that doesn't make them gods. Thwey could just have been really powerful dragons, that when they died, dissappeared or what have you, left this world. Became immortalized, and where given a placei n the stars. Or they could just be pure myth told by ancient dragon sages to the barbarian tribes, or old wizards. I guss for the time being, we don't really know, good night ladies and gentlemen, it has been a very taxing day and I am tired.:zzz:
Dauntless 09-19-04, 12:57 AM	Indeed. Taken from a random mythology site: "In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos." Neither is a creation of DnD authors, but (like the archfiends and many of the outter planes) an adaptation of real-world mythos.
Nimrud 09-19-04, 02:05 AM	Yes, but in a D&D setting, what would be your first impression? And if not gods, then what are they?
The White Sorcerer 09-19-04, 06:57 AM	As far as I'm concerned, the Gods of the Dragons are constellations. Nothing more, nothing less.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-19-04, 08:16 AM	The way I see it, the dragons look to the stars for guidance in the form of astrology. They may belive that the powerful dragons of the past still guide them today, taking form as the stars that reveal the Prophecy. Tiamat, Bahamut, Chronepsis etc. are dragons of legend risen from this land to another form, just like Siberys, Khyber and Eberron.
ChrisTheS 09-19-04, 02:53 PM	Note that these are the gods of dragonkind in ALL settings, not just Greyhawk and FR (they have different names in Dragonlance, but they're the same deities). The draconic pantheon is one of the few things that remain consistent between worlds. Go anywhere in the multiverse and you'd be able, if you looked hard enough, to find a worshipper of Aasterinian or Tamara.
Serpentine 09-19-04, 03:56 PM	Also, you need a wicked lot of imagination to see pictures made out of a bunch of stars strung together. I got bad eyes, but I've never been able to see anything in the stars without a picture overlay except the Big Dipper. Without the picture overlay, Bahamut could be pretty much anything, like a lion, and Tiamat just looks like a big peacock. The gods are still remote. The dragons have their legends and prophecies anyway.
ChrisTheS 09-19-04, 04:20 PM	And Eberron is fortunately untainted by the astronomical impossibilities that are the Dragonlance constellations. In the real world, constellations are nothing more than a fancy classification of celestial bodies, which many (myself included) can't make head nor tail of. Unless Keith says otherwise, I'm inclined to believe that the same is applicable to Eberron.
Edymnion 09-19-04, 07:41 PM	Indeed. Taken from a random mythology site: "In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos." Neither is a creation of DnD authors, but (like the archfiends and many of the outter planes) an adaptation of real-world mythos.Yes, I know this. And the Tarrasque is also taken from real life mythology, its from a Christian story about Saint Martha. But if I see a big rampaging monster in a D&D setting called the Tarrasque, I'm going to be enclined to believe its the D&D version and not the dragon tamed by Saint Martha. Same here. Real life mythology does not depict Tiamat as being a dragon with 5 heads, each a differant color. That is purely an invention of D&D. This constillation has a dragon, named Tiamat, with 5 heads. To my knowledge, this can ONLY be referancing the D&D incarantion of the old girl. The point I'm trying to make though, is that there are two big elements lifted directly from other settings in Eberron. Bahamut and Tiamat were ported over pretty much as is. And as for the bit about the dragon gods being the same in every setting, that doesn't really apply here. There's no Moradin, but there are Dwarves. There is no Corellon, but there are Elves. There is no Yondalla, but there are Haflings. Gnomes but no Garl Glittergold. Yet there are Dragons, and Bahamut and Tiamat are here. I know these are just constillations. I know they're just pictures in the sky. I know it has zero bearing on ANYTHING in the rest of the setting. But the point was that they are here, when NOTHING else of any god, from any other setting is here. Maybe Keith just really liked those two, and wanted to include them, I don't know. What I do know is that they stand out as being unusual.
Baloo 09-19-04, 10:39 PM	Note that these are the gods of dragonkind in ALL settings, not just Greyhawk and FR (they have different names in Dragonlance, but they're the same deities). The draconic pantheon is one of the few things that remain consistent between worlds. Go anywhere in the multiverse and you'd be able, if you looked hard enough, to find a worshipper of Aasterinian or Tamara. There's no trace of the draconic gods on Athas (Dark Sun) or Mystara. Dark Sun doesn't have any gods at all, and Mystara has an alternate set that doesn't have anything to do with Bahamut or Tiamat. Not that that has anything to do with Eberron, but I thought it should be pointed out.
ChrisTheS 09-20-04, 07:56 PM	If I recall correctly, Athas is ruled by dragons who claim to BE gods, hence why they wouldn't worship this bunch. Not being at all familiar with Mystara, I will be inclined to take your word for it. I will also note that originally, Takhisis and Paladine (from Dragonlance) were officially not analogous to Tiamat and Bahamut, but nobody really believed that, and in 3e they now appear to be officially recognized as being the same deities (my association of Chronepsis and Gilean is a bit of fancy on my part, but since he plays exactly the same role between Takhisis and Paladine as Chronepsis does between Tiamat and Bahamut, I feel justified in making the connection). --- Edymnion: ECS, page 130, at the end of the section 'Marking the Years' gives a table: 'Constellations (Gods of the Dragons)' <emphasis added>. (I may be just confused by your phrasing, but it seems to me that you are under the impression that only Tiamat and Bahamut are holdovers from 'default' D&D, when in fact all eleven dragon deities appear, along with a fairly unequivocal statement that this is the pantheon that dragons worship.) While one might make an argument that the other gods don't really exist (see below), this information certainly makes you wonder whether the dragons know something about the divine that everyone else doesn't, does it not? If I might go slightly off topic, I personally don't think that the gods of the 'lesser' races are real (i.e. entities with a divine rank, the rules definition of a god), hence why they are 'distant'. What they are is reflections of real deities, presumably of other worlds (although you could make an argument that they're actually channeling the latent divine energy left over from the progenitor wyrms' battle, which would work just as well). The religion surrounding these gods, however, is so entrenched that those of extraordinary faith are able to channel divine energy (leeched from elsewhere, similarly to ur-priests in a way). Ostensibly, this is why true clerics are a demographic rarity, as well as why it is possible for clerics of a faith that worship a coatl/human/demon combination to still cast spells. Now, Aasterinian, Astilabor, Bahamut, Chronepsis, Falazure, Garyx, Hlal, Io, Lendys, Tamara, and Tiamat are all deities that we KNOW they exist and have divine rank. In a setting which gives dragons a very unique position as keepers and interpreters of the record of creation, I think that is very significant.
Kenzuki 09-20-04, 11:22 PM	I like the dragon gods.
Saurenda 09-21-04, 01:41 PM	Kenzuki is right.
The White Sorcerer 09-21-04, 04:15 PM	Now, Aasterinian, Astilabor, Bahamut, Chronepsis, Falazure, Garyx, Hlal, Io, Lendys, Tamara, and Tiamat are all deities that we KNOW they exist and have divine rank. No, they aren't. If you wish to make them so in your campaign, feel free. IMC, they're just constellations.
lugnut71 09-21-04, 04:23 PM	Takhisis and Paladine (from Dragonlance) were officially not analogous to Tiamat and Bahamut, but nobody really believed that, and in 3e they now appear to be officially recognized as being the same deities (my association of Chronepsis and Gilean is a bit of fancy on my part, but since he plays exactly the same role between Takhisis and Paladine as Chronepsis does between Tiamat and Bahamut, I feel justified in making the connection). Sorry they are not at all connected. They are not the same divine rank. They also have different domains. Not to mention everyone connected with Dragonlance in some form or the other has said they aren't connected. They only thing they have in common really is the same apperance.
eRaz0r 09-21-04, 09:42 PM	The problem with the Gods of DnD is that they're often given a single divine rank. There's no reason to expect that Corellon is as powerful on one world as he is on another. Say there are only a handful of elves remaining on a world. Is Correlon still a greater God there ? Even if he's known as a Greater God, what if he is distant and unable to intercede with all his power ? Perhaps He acts as a demi-god on this world... Or perhaps he's just a memory. So there's no reason to expect that Bahamut or Tiamat are more than distant memories of the Dragons on Eberron. To say that they are definitively a) the same creatures, b) even present or c) able to do anything directly goes against the standard presumptions of the setting. Now, we aren't aware of what the Dragons of Eberron know - it's one of the great mysteries. Perhaps the Dragon Gods are the only real ones and all the other lesser gods aren't more than figments of a vivid collective imagination - or even anthropomorphized fragments of the True Dragon Gods (divine magic comes from somewhere, right?) But such a supposition is just that - a guess. There's nothing to back that up other than a correlation between some names across multiple settings, which is a meta-gaming thought, and takes no clues from within the setting. It's just as likely that the dragons arrived on the planescape of Eberron from somewhere else, bringing with them the notions of their Gods, only to find that their Gods were unable to retain contact with them. Honoured in memory, the Dragon Gods are now remembered (and worshipped) in the skies as Constellations. Either idea fits.