Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 12-01-05, 01:42 PM	I'm about to DM an Eberron campaign of my own devising, and I'm starting to have some difficulty figuring out how to balance the thing. Eberron is a pretty non-traditional sort of place. It's not normal, there, to have the usual "four encounters per day" that is the WOTC guideline, and apparently the balance factor for casters (a group in which I include psions and similar). How can I keep the Eberron flavor without allowing magic users and manifesters to overwhelm every encounter? Should I continually have longer encounters where reinforcements show up, increasing the CR and hopefully arriving after the caster has burned his best attacks? Should I put in a special requirement that all casters have to multiclass as some non-caster class? Should I declare powerful magic-users off limits for the party? I'm baffled, trying to find a way to deal with a game where it's pretty unlikely that we'll be having lots of encounters with no rest...
Grymar 12-01-05, 01:47 PM	I think it is an issue as in my game we tend to have 1 encounter per day. The main thing I've done is to up the CR on the big fight, plus add in a number of henchlings. So rather than a 5th level party fighting four CR5 creatures/encounters per day, they will fight a single 8th level boss who has 3 3rd level henchmen. It becomes difficult to balance quickly deadly for the PCs, but it can be very fun.
aelryinth 12-01-05, 04:39 PM	Multiple encounters IS the way to balance magic casters. They can't pull the uber buff combo for every encounter...so make them burn it and go onto the next. But they DID get to uber buff, are happy about it, and now it's time for another class to shine. Really, you should be asking, how do I let each class shine in its own way? Start looking at your encounters from that angle, and keep in mind that you have a living campaign. If a character has an uber buff combo, 'borrow' it and have your enemies start using it...suddenly the campaign starts evolving as now the characters have to react to the fact that everyone else can do the same thing they do, and are just as smart and inventive. It's a great trick to pull on them. they often aren't prepared for someone bringing the smack just as effectively as they do. ==Aelryinth
Altaris13 12-01-05, 05:01 PM	Multiple encounters IS the way to balance magic casters. They can't pull the uber buff combo for every encounter...so make them burn it and go onto the next. But they DID get to uber buff, are happy about it, and now it's time for another class to shine. Really, you should be asking, how do I let each class shine in its own way? Start looking at your encounters from that angle, and keep in mind that you have a living campaign. If a character has an uber buff combo, 'borrow' it and have your enemies start using it...suddenly the campaign starts evolving as now the characters have to react to the fact that everyone else can do the same thing they do, and are just as smart and inventive. It's a great trick to pull on them. they often aren't prepared for someone bringing the smack just as effectively as they do. ==Aelryinth Quoted for truth. I had similar issues originaly IMC since we usually only had 1 combat encounter. One major thing to remember is that not all encounter have to be combat. Make the characters spend their time & resources on other things too, even if it is just getting across a ravine. As the group scales up in level, you'll have to increase the number of encounters. I found it unavoidable. Increasing the CR and tactical-ability of the enemy ended up with too many dead PCs.
Lunarbat 12-01-05, 05:59 PM	I've also found adding a number of lower CR's helps. It's more of a wearing-down effect. In our game, the characters are trying to stop a CotDB led by an aberration. I know it's cliche, but they're new to Eberron, and don't know that's the situation. As it is, all the lower-level encounters are driving them nuts. I plan on having the loss of minions be a signal to the bosses that something's up. That'll enable them to prepare their defenses, that must be overcome as well, of course. Nothing wrong with making players use up resources against inanimate objects. :)
PoeticJustice 12-01-05, 06:33 PM	I would be slow to suggest he increase the number of encounter per day or adventure. Obviously he realizes that 4 encounters a day would be sufficent to exhaust spellcasters, but for one reason or another, he's having trouble cramming them into an adventure. Otherwise he wouldn't have made this thread. We should try and suggest alternatives before recommending he change DM'ing style. Therefore, to punish casters without being annoying, use the following: 1) Monks. Great saves and evasion often means that spellcasters will have a hard time pinning them down. This is preferable to using Spell Resistance due to the subtle, as opposed to overt, hosing of spellcasters. 2) Similarly, give some monsters Lightning reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude feat. 3) Rogues. Two invisible level 3 rogues (6d6+2 damage if both hit with average strength and +1 Shortswords) will take the wind out of any caster's sails. Punish the meek bookworm hard enough and he'll begin preparing See Invisibility and Mage Armor, cutting down on his offensive capability in favor of added defense, which will keep things nice and balanced. 4) Noncombat encounters. As suggested earlier, a locked Adamantine door or yawning ravine will burn a level 3 or 4 spell to circumvent. 5) Counterspells. An enemy Wizard with a Wand of Ice Storm and the improved counterspell feat can shut down that haughty evoker like nothing else. Once their spells are exhausted, then you get your turn to unload. Unlike dispel magic, there's no caster level check; the spell is automatically countered. 6) Similarly, Spell Turning, Protection from Spells, and Spell Resistance are all abjurations that a smart or wise mastermind would put on himself should he be aware of a caster among the ranks of his enemy. 7)Nonlethal encounters. Maybe the party should NEED the enemy alive for interrogation or as a hostage. The Fireball spell is mighty, but it doesn't have much in the way of subtlety or tact, causing the party to rely on the fighter, who can grapple, or the rogue, who can hogtie. At the very least, you'll deny the caster his most effective way of resolving combat: blowing the enemy to pieces. I hope these helped.
Just another user 12-01-05, 06:46 PM	Another possibilty against spellcasters (I think it is legal but I could be wrong) some ranged attack enemy with a ready action "shoot anyone that cast spells" I think it should require a Concentration check against damage like in case of an AoO, but as I said i could be wrong
PoeticJustice 12-01-05, 09:20 PM	Another possibilty against spellcasters (I think it is legal but I could be wrong) some ranged attack enemy with a ready action "shoot anyone that cast spells" I think it should require a Concentration check against damage like in case of an AoO, but as I said i could be wrong This is not only correct, but very effective. Also, spells with full-round casting times like Summon Monster spells don't go off until the caster's next turn, giving the enemy ample time to charge out and force a DC 20+ Concentration check on the puny mage.
Gurv 12-01-05, 10:30 PM	PoeticJustice's suggestions are pretty good. But I don't think that Eberron needs to deviate from the standard "four encounters per day" rule of thumb. Instead, it is just a matter of making those four encounters fit the feel of the game. Having reinforcements arrive is a great way to do this. If they come in waves, with a few minutes in between (enough to allow short-term buffs to wear off and a little healing get done) then it has the same effect as totally separate encounters, while still feeling like it was a single ongoing one. And there are plenty of situations where characters should run into the next problem before they're refreshed. Look at the example books/movies in the beginning of the ECS. The characters in those are caught with their pants down all the time. Heck, I can think of several times when Indiana Jones or Jack Sparrow surrendered because the wrong person showed up at exactly the wrong time!
PoeticJustice 12-01-05, 10:44 PM	*edits post* Anything for you, Gurv
Keenath 12-01-05, 11:38 PM	I would be slow to suggest he increase the number of encounter per day or adventure.I appreciate that somebody on this thread recognizes that, when I say "What can I do besides X?", the appropriate response is not "Do X!" I don't think Eberron lends itself so much to the four-per-day concept, unless you happen to be wandering the jungles of Xendrik, crawling through the sewers of Sharn, or exploring an ancient ruin. Most of the time, a combat encounter will be a scrum in the alleyway, or a battle on a flying airship, or a running combat with a group of halfling raiders. Trying to keep it to four per day feels very restrictive to me. One of the reasons I'm worried is because I have quite a lot of non-combat "encounters", but they generally don't require magic to finish -- they require some social skills and some luck and some climbing and some lockpicks and some clever use of equipment. While magic may come into it, I don't think using a Knock spell is the same as reducing the mage's remaining spells by a quarter. These are encounters for the other players to do well at, but I'm concerned that when the initiative rolls start, the mage will turn into a nuke and scorch the area. While widespread magical destruction isn't necessarily bad in itself, I'd prefer to let some of the other players feel like they're contributing. And I don't really want to PUNISH casters, per se. I just want to make sure they don't turn into the dominators of combat.
zambuka 12-01-05, 11:40 PM	Keep it at 4 encounters per day. Not all those encounters need be combat oriented, it is easy enough to create encounters where blowing the antagonists out of existance is a bad thing (like capturing and enemy, a chase through the streets of Sharn, etc). By having more non-combat encounters you can encourage your spell chuckers to start loading up on more utility and support spells and get them to burn those instead. Traps, puzzles and other inanimate encounters can also get a caster to burn their spells. The trick is to encourage them to start using their more utilitarian and support spells. With enough encounters where their combat spells are useless the spell chuckers will eventually get the message and start using the not so flashy but still useful spells.
PoeticJustice 12-02-05, 01:03 AM	...And I don't really want to PUNISH casters, per se. I just want to make sure they don't turn into the dominators of combat. For clarity, my suggestion are not to make spellcasters worthless, but to put a few stumbling blocks without resorting to say, Antimagic Field, Golems, Everybody has Spell Resistance, or Grapple-Monsters that keep your wizard from casting spells with somatic componenets.
cryptictravler 12-02-05, 01:21 AM	Some ideas: Make the casters have jobs. Ally them with one faction or another and require that they use up spell slots. Maybe an artificer guild would have an easier time of it if the had someone to cast fireball twice a day or to use summon monster every night at midnight in order to infuse the spell into a Bag of Tricks. Give the party as a whole the benefits of the association and problem solved. Force them to use different spells and to prepare a wide range of spells. This reduces their ability to spam a certain spell or buff. Use creatures with hefty SR, or certain elemental immunities, and the like. Find a faction that can support a wide scope of enemies and give clues showing that he has to be ready for anything. (more useful against wizards than sorcerers) Use enemies which casters ought to fear. Archers with Manyshot are death to mages, have them ready an action to fire upon anyone spell casting. Then shoiot as many arrows as they can as a standard action. The concentration checks are pretty beefy. Te sam is true of grapplers, of anything with reach, and the like. Make obvious spell casting dangerous. In certain areas it makes sense for authorities to limit certain types of magic. In other areas it would be wise not to make others away of your powers. Have them be hunted by the Ashbound, and any flashy uses of spells or long lasting spell buffs will be noticed. Use the mysterious nature of the planes to your advantage. Have certain spells become more or less useful as would suit your adventure. Area effect evocations v.one BBEG aren't affective so have them fight in a Fernia mannifest zone. Or a Kythri manifest zone and wild magic becomes especially dangerous when long terms buffs are used. Or Xoriat manifest zone and conjuration risks sucking Dolgaunts into the material plane.
Errant 12-02-05, 01:48 AM	My campaign is pretty heavily house ruled with fast HP healing and beefed up magic use, so I'm not sure I can offer anything PoeticJustice hasn't already suggested. I will however try to reassure you by suggesting that letting the spellcasters go nova on a few once a day encounters, then using a suitable combination of one-two encounters could teach them to conserve their spells just in case. Let me try to explain another way. If your players start to sense that you're trying to stick to 'one combat encounter a day' and get complacent enough to blow most of their spells at the first sign of danger, they put themselves at great risk if you mix in a few days where they face more than one encounter a day. If you keep to the 'norm' of one average encounter a day, but throw in a serious followup encounter one day and take advantage of their complacency when they're low on spells, are they likely to keep going nova very often? (genuine question, if they may be that kind of group) Is it unbalancing if the mage/whoever goes nova occasionally? Or do you want to make him always use his spells conservatively?
Just another user 12-02-05, 03:27 AM	Another option, probably already mentioned, is put them in situations where scorch the area is not the best course of action, for example inside a warehouse full of delicate and expensive goods and make it clear that what you break, you pay or fight into a crowded place or place where you simply don't cast fireballs into (i.e. a temple of the Hosts), etc.
Splendide 12-02-05, 04:28 AM	Illusory encounters are also fun for getting mages to waste spells early. An illusory guard at the entrance, for example. Another way to limit mages is by not allowing tight shot groupings. Have a few archers attack from six different points around the party. Can't fireball many in one hit. Resist Energy is also fun, and its so easy to cast too.
Keenath 12-02-05, 09:13 AM	Thanks for the ideas. It may end up being not much of a problem; the guy who always wants to be a caster is the most ineffectual party member (he's got some very strange ideas of what constitute good spell selections, like "anything that lets me control other people"), so he may just nerf himself. If one of the others takes a primary caster, though, I'll have to watch out... On the other hand, I think most of them will be okay with it if I ask them to prepare some spells that aren't just blasting, or if I request that they multiclass a little. Just a few levels.
D666 12-02-05, 03:59 PM	Give the bad guys saving throw bonuses when there are fewer than four encounters per day. Say, +1 for three encounters, +2 for two encounters, +3 or +4 for one. Or, it being Eberron, give them action points to balance things out. Gene
Gurv 12-02-05, 04:28 PM	Most of the time, a combat encounter will be a scrum in the alleyway, or a battle on a flying airship, or a running combat with a group of halfling raiders. Trying to keep it to four per day feels very restrictive to me. What I was getting at is that "four encounters per day" doesn't have to mean four separate encounters. You can have a single event, but properly done, it is functionally four encounters. A "scrum in the alleyway" could start with hearing a lady being mugged and stopping those muggers. The noise of the combat could be heard by members of the gang the muggers (now defeated) belong to; they could follow the PCs as they seek to bring the victim home and attack to get revenge. When the PCs show strength in fighting back, they could flee...perhaps by fleeing through a section of the alley they know is infested with dire rats. The gang gets through but riles the vermin as they do so. Finally, from the midst of the attacking dire rats, they face off against a wererat who is tired of his kind being treated this way. That's four encounters, all of which will be remembered as "the encounter saving the girl who was mugged". A battle on an airship could involve enemies that don't come all at once. Instead, they attack in small groups, engaging the crew of the ship as well as the PCs. They fight a number of attackers to make an equal challenge for the party at a time. Every time they manage to clear enough foes to get a breather, another bunch charges in. After four of these, they have had four encounters. The same thing could happen with the halflings, with an initial encounter with mounted halflings, a chase where hunting dinos attempt to drag them down, followed by more halfings as they catch up on soarwings, etc. That is how I keep the flavor of Eberron while still running four encounters each day. Just run a single very large encounter (as has been suggested) but break it up so that it isn't a single encounter of high EL, but rather several normal EL encounters that come close enough together to use up some resources.
Chiyo 12-05-05, 01:19 PM	I'd stay away from precluding core classes even if they're in your opinion too powerful. It restricts the players to one style of play they may not like after all. But you may want to tightly control use of non-Eberron sources. Some of them aren't so well balanced and may contribute to the overpowered caster situation (or perception). You have entire discretion to forbid some PrCs especially. I'd also stay away from having NPCs replicate the PCs' feats in encounter or VERY rarely. It deprives the PCs of their uniqueness. Think of one of your own most liked character and how you'd react if every other encounter had one opponent doing the exact same thing your PC does. It's both unimaginative on the DM's part and frustrating for the PCs to not be more unique than that. Also PC classes are rare in Eberron. Chances to meet and fight against opponents that use the same tactics should thus be even rarer, especially the higher level you go. But I agree, pace is the essence. Casters have limited resources on spells per day. Make it count. Have them wonder if this or that encounter is really worth of their best stuff or if they can do ok with their crossbow for the time being. Also know when to back off on your planned encounters. A lot of the non-caster classes rely on caster support to shine. The best example is obviously cleric+front line fighters. Those guys are gonna get hurt. If the cleric is out of healing spells, the fighters won't shine for very long. But need for healing is a good way to keep your clerics in check. They'll use their spells for that and less for other stuff. But watch out for the wand-o-healing cleric. Make sure that character is not so harassed by healing demands that they don't do anything but heal in which case, they might as well be a one-dimensional wand of cure .... Other way to control wizards specifically is via availability of the spells for their best combos. If they can't find scorching ray, they won't cast it. Watch for the scroll supplier artificer issue if you have both artificer and wizard in group though. At mid/high levels, throw in mobs with energy and spell resistance, custom mobs especially since PCs won't know what to use directly. The less they appear to be spell/energy resistant the better. Casters will blow spells trying to beat the SR. In Eberron, PCs get famous relatively fast due to the setting being lower level than other campaign worlds. So, soon enough, the PCs enemies will have heard of them and of their favorite tactics. No reason for smart enemies to not prepare to face the PCs on better terms. Consider the use of spell immunities, energy protection, spell resistance and other protective spells. Also, as simple as it sounds, silence and darkness to a lesser extent can help a lot vs casters. Other option is to create situations where the PCs know they'll have to use utility spells. Could be underwater breathing for extended adventures in water, could be endure cold to avoid freezing or levitation on slippery surfaces, rickety bridges and places easy to fall from. Anything that takes up spell slots for something else than offense is a good thing.
Save-vs-DM 12-06-05, 07:46 AM	Here are a few more tips and tricks for dealing with low encounter spellcasters. One key to remember is that you don't want to punish spellcasters for thier choice of class, you want to make them expend more of their resources in a non-combative manner. While occasional punishment is good and expected, constant "anti-mage" units can get tiresome for your spellcaster. Potions Galore Outfit your enemies with potions that they can drink just prior to combat. In Eberron potions are relatively easy to come by and no big encounter should go without a few. Potions of resist elements, mage armor, or even invisibility can help even the odds a bit. The idea here is to make the enemies more resistant to magical attacks without making them more resistant to physical attacks. Endure Elements makes them partially resistant to a lot of energy based attacks without making the fighters any less effective. Mage Armor on heavy fighters actually makes them no harder for fighters to hit but does up their touch AC for touch attacks. Use Unusual Terrain Not only is this more cinematic, it can make spellcasters use up spell slots just to make the party effective. Fights on a cliffside benefit from spider climb or fly, which the mage is going to have to spend a few rounds casting on the party beef. This lets the spellcaster aid the party while burning a bunch of spells. You can also use unnatural darkness (daylight) or chasms (jump) to slow down the mage as well. Encourage Counterspells Make it clear to your spellcasters that counterspelling is a very viable option. Put in enemy spellcasters that might really beat down the party with a few key spells unless the spellcaster counterspells them first. This actually makes spellcasters feel really spiffy and also takes away spells without actually harming enemies. Use Flunkies A hoard of little flunkies or "mooks" can really make mages feel all powerful without really increasing the danger to the party. A hoard of 30 screaming kobolds isn't really a big threat and takes out valuable spell slots to deal with. Temporary Hit Points Have an enemy spellcaster grant your other enemies temporary hit points. These make enemies take longer to kill than usual without really making them all that much tougher. Make Buffs Matter Throw in some monsters or enemies that actually require certian buff spells to overcome their damage resistance or special abilities. Again this makes the spellcaster expend resources without actually making the party all that much more effective. For example, throw in an evil beasty that needs good weapons to be overcome - and make the mage burn a few rounds casting align weapon. Elementary, Dear Mage Set up some investigation prior to combat that might just take a few spells to overcome, such as speak with dead or detect secret doors. This also has the happy side-effect of encouraging mages to prepare different spells other than all combat spells. This also goes for arcane locked doors and the like. Finally, the previous posts all have some wonderful suggestions. All I can say is good luck and happy gaming! Cheers, Save vs DM
Korhal_IV 12-06-05, 04:06 PM	I think you can raise the CR to challenge the party effectively. A 4th level party could face a single 6th level foe with a handful of 3rd and 1st level followers. The BBEG engages while the little enemies harass the other party members. We've been doing that in my Eberron campaign fairly effectively. Alternately, putting the party into positions where "going nova" is counterproductive will work. Perhaps they're fighting deep in a mine shaft, and if the mage drops a Fireball the place goes kaboom (illustrate with a dead canary in a cage just outside the BBEG's room). Perhaps the villain has kidnapped a noblewoman, and tied her to the dark altar right behind him. Fireballing him would result in her certain death. A melee in a large crowd (such as in a ballroom or marketplace) would also be hazardous, particularly if the BBEG takes the opportunity to sneak up unnoticed behind the wizard and announce his arrival by introducing his greatsword to the back of the wizard's head.
D666 12-06-05, 07:22 PM	A melee in a large crowd (such as in a ballroom or marketplace) would also be hazardous, particularly if the BBEG takes the opportunity to sneak up unnoticed behind the wizard and announce his arrival by introducing his greatsword to the back of the wizard's head. I think this comes under the heading of 'punishing the spellcaster' :) Also, how do you sneak up unnoticed while carrying a greatsword in a ballroom? Gene
Gurv 12-06-05, 08:27 PM	Also, how do you sneak up unnoticed while carrying a greatsword in a ballroom? Invisibility, disguise self, glove of storing, shrink item, call weaponry, indisputable possession....and that's just off the top of my head.
Keenath 12-07-05, 09:45 AM	Potions Galore Outfit your enemies with potions that they can drink just prior to combat. In Eberron potions are relatively easy to come by and no big encounter should go without a few. Potions of resist elements, mage armor, or even invisibility can help even the odds a bit. The idea here is to make the enemies more resistant to magical attacks without making them more resistant to physical attacks. Endure Elements makes them partially resistant to a lot of energy based attacks without making the fighters any less effective. Mage Armor on heavy fighters actually makes them no harder for fighters to hit but does up their touch AC for touch attacks.Where to start. First I'll assume that when you said "resist elements" and "endure elements", you actually meant "resist energy". Endure elements does not actually provide any protection from energy damage, and there's no such spell as "resist elements". Second, you've misunderstood mage armor. Mage Armor does not apply against touch attacks; it provides its bonus (being a force effect) against Incorporeal Touch attacks -- that is, the attack that most incorporeal creatures have. But while Incorporeal Touch is a touch attack, not all touch attacks are Incorporeal Touch. Use Unusual Terrain Not only is this more cinematic, it can make spellcasters use up spell slots just to make the party effective. Fights on a cliffside benefit from spider climb or fly, which the mage is going to have to spend a few rounds casting on the party beef. This lets the spellcaster aid the party while burning a bunch of spells. You can also use unnatural darkness (daylight) or chasms (jump) to slow down the mage as well.While this is true, it depends on the wizard to have such spells ready. In general, that means the wizard is going to have to get some input from me, the DM, to let him know that he'll need utility spells on a regular basis. And if I'm doing that, I may as well just explain that I need him to back off on the blaster-mage role. Encourage Counterspells Make it clear to your spellcasters that counterspelling is a very viable option. Put in enemy spellcasters that might really beat down the party with a few key spells unless the spellcaster counterspells them first. This actually makes spellcasters feel really spiffy and also takes away spells without actually harming enemies.Difficult tactic to use. The mage either uses dispel magic (in which case he risks allowing the spell to happen anyway, p0wnzing the party) or he uses Counterspell, in which case he needs that EXACT spell prepared, or he takes Improved Counterspell, in which case he needs to be able to cast spells at least one level higher than the party-killing spell. In each case, the wizard would probably make a better tactical choice by using his spellcasting to destroy the opponent wizard, rather than readying a counterspell. As a side-rant, counterspelling is handled horribly in D&D in any case. It's almost never a good tactical decision, as I discussed above. The best defense is a good offense. (You know who said that? Mel, the cook on "Alice"!) It's almost always better to drop a damaging or fort-save-inducing spell right now than give up an action to counterspell the enemy's next, which may or may not be worthy of counterspelling and may or may not be one of today's prepared spells. Improved Counterspell means you get to do it more often, but unless you're at pretty high level, it's usually not worth the +1 level necessary to pull that off. Okay, rant off, moving along... Use Flunkies A hoard of little flunkies or "mooks" can really make mages feel all powerful without really increasing the danger to the party. A hoard of 30 screaming kobolds isn't really a big threat and takes out valuable spell slots to deal with.That's not a terrible idea, though I'm not sure the mage would fall for it. Knowing that they're kobolds, he may just stand back and let the fighter cleave for a bit. And that's really more of a one-shot patch than a long term fix; I can't just have weenie hordes running in every session. Make Buffs Matter Throw in some monsters or enemies that actually require certian buff spells to overcome their damage resistance or special abilities. Again this makes the spellcaster expend resources without actually making the party all that much more effective. For example, throw in an evil beasty that needs good weapons to be overcome - and make the mage burn a few rounds casting align weapon.That's a great suggestion, and I know exactly what you mean. Except Align Weapon is clerical rather than arcane, so this doesn't really help the wizard issue. But I know what you're getting at. This would tend to be a side issue related to me telling the wizard to prepare utilities rather than all blaster spells, though -- if not Align Weapon, how about Bull's Strength? A buff is a buff. Elementary, Dear Mage Set up some investigation prior to combat that might just take a few spells to overcome, such as speak with dead or detect secret doors. This also has the happy side-effect of encouraging mages to prepare different spells other than all combat spells. This also goes for arcane locked doors and the like.Of course that'll be coming into it, though I hardly trust the wizard to figure it out on his own. This is more of "keeping my side of the bargain"; you don't prepare all blasting spells, and I make sure you can make good use of the utilities.
Inkling 12-07-05, 07:19 PM	If you want to give mid-to-high level wizards a hard time (low-level wizards suck and don't need to be nerfed) I would mirror the suggestions above and say throw higher numbers of low-level CRs for the encounter ECL. A large number of low level beasties that refuse to group together is murder to a wizard...especially if they are able to close in and grapple. I don't know if you've ever heard of Tucker's Kobolds? Tucker was a guy who DMed kobolds as being diabolical little geniuses that always used guerrilla hit-and-run tactics to whittle down the players. They would attack from cover and use Shot On the Run to chuck flasks of oil and fire flaming arrows at them, use all kinds of traps, etc. It was so bad that high-level players would run away screaming "Nooooo kobolds!" whenever they encountered these puny little low CR beasties. Tucker's Kobold encounters are especially vicious to spellcasters.
aelryinth 12-07-05, 09:42 PM	Always considered Tucker's Kobolds underrated...they were a 1E/2E phenomnon. Fireballs in tight places, Cloudkills to fill up their runways, wraith form and polymorph self to smaller forms to infiltrate and map their passages...plenty of ways to crack the kobolds. The parties just never bothered to think or crack em. ==Aelryinth
Solarious 12-07-05, 11:43 PM	Always considered Tucker's Kobolds underrated...they were a 1E/2E phenomnon. Fireballs in tight places, Cloudkills to fill up their runways, wraith form and polymorph self to smaller forms to infiltrate and map their passages...plenty of ways to crack the kobolds. The parties just never bothered to think or crack em.Heh... good kobolds always have winding passages that branch out like a web , which leaves multiple ways to flee and nearly every passage is trapped... Fireball might catch a few off guard, but guerrilla tactics, by definition, doesn't have large groups of kobolds to target with a Fireball. And if these Tucker's Kobolds were played as smart as they're said to be, I'm sure that tactics to defeat them will be utilized in time as well. Have you ever seen that map of a kobold lair in Dragon 332? That's what I think of when imagining a kobold lair. It's a spiral of dead-ends and passageways that become dead ends, with traps every 50 feet or so. Sorta resembles a checkerboard, with all the yellow patches left and right! Drilling through 5' stone walls with adamantine weapons is painfully loud and lets kobolds prepare an ambush to end all ambushes, and there are only so many Stone to Mud and Disintegrate spells a person can toss. Don't forget that Eberron kobolds also have spellcasting support in spades with Blood Shamans. While your tactics are sound and should be adopted in order to combat the menace of Tucker's Kobolds, it isn't quite as easy as you make it sound like.
Save-vs-DM 12-08-05, 03:25 AM	Where to start. First I'll assume that when you said "resist elements" and "endure elements", you actually meant "resist energy". Endure elements does not actually provide any protection from energy damage, and there's no such spell as "resist elements". By jove, you're right. I did mean resist energy. As a side note, my brain must have pulled resist elements from GURPS (been working on GURPS characters lately, so I have the system on the brain). Thanks for the correction and sorry to leave you astray. Second, you've misunderstood mage armor. Mage Armor does not apply against touch attacks; it provides its bonus (being a force effect) against Incorporeal Touch attacks -- that is, the attack that most incorporeal creatures have. But while Incorporeal Touch is a touch attack, not all touch attacks are Incorporeal Touch. Again, you're correct. I was confusing incorporeal touch attacks with spell touch attacks. Again, sorry to bring in incorrect information. On the subject of counterspells, I've found it to be a fun tactic in limited situations. For example, the big bad guy threatening to fireball his hostages when you know the wizard has fireball prepared. He has plenty of time to ready and gets to feel cool when the spell fizzles thanks to him. Cheers, Save vs DM
PsionicMonk 12-08-05, 04:30 AM	accutly, IMO 4 encounters per day = one very mad artificer, cant get any work done. PLus it doesn't make sense that there would always be that many encounters, of a combat type. Cuase after the first 2 waves, they would just send in there much bigger stuff, to take a group out. Encounters could alos mean traps, diplomacy, or any other sort of thing non-combat wise.
Keenath 12-08-05, 08:38 AM	Heh... good kobolds always have winding passages that branch out like a web , which leaves multiple ways to flee and nearly every passage is trapped... Fireball might catch a few off guard, but guerrilla tactics, by definition, doesn't have large groups of kobolds to target with a Fireball. And if these Tucker's Kobolds were played as smart as they're said to be, I'm sure that tactics to defeat them will be utilized in time as well.Actually, the right way to deal with Tucker's Kobolds is to treat them like any other trap -- ignore them. Not that you should ignore them when they show up, but never, EVER chase them into their tunnels. WHen they attack, you counterattack, then after they flee, you move on. Just accomplish your goal without letting the weenies distract you, and you should be okay. It's also fun to be a monk with Snatch Arrows. Try to hit ME with alchemist's fire, will you?! Return to sender -- postage due.
Keenath 12-08-05, 08:43 AM	accutly, IMO 4 encounters per day = one very mad artificer, cant get any work done. Four per day doesn't mean there's no down-time. It means four encounters per day when you're actively adventuring. If the casters are not called upon to use any spells, that isn't an issue. THe issue is when they're called upon to use their spells and they have the option of blowing all their really good spells in a short time, without fear of repercussions. Non-combat encounters, as I discussed above (thanks for reading the thread...) are usually not a significant drain on the wizard's resources. By the time he has enough spells to be an issue, a 2nd or 3rd level slot to bypass some problem just doesn't change his ability to go nova in the next combat.
PsionicMonk 12-08-05, 07:36 PM	Most of the players I have played with know when to use there best spells, and the spell casters will soon learn to to sweat the small encounters, unless rolls start going bad or something. Most of the spell casters Ive delt with have there own spells and have wands to deal out the small encounter damage. So your players are going to find a way around it. The only way to counter balance spell casters is putting them in places where spells can't be used, but then your punshing a player for choosing to be a spell caster, no matter what setting you are in, this is a problem. Point by point bases Spell casters can out due a fighter chr. The only chance a fighter has is to be in melee range. What you could always do is have the group ambushed by something that has a monster that has more than just a 5 foot reach. So the wizard can't just "take a 5 foot step back" and cast there spells without suffering AOO, and having to make a concentration roll if they do get hit.
aelryinth 12-08-05, 08:14 PM	Heh... good kobolds always have winding passages that branch out like a web , which leaves multiple ways to flee and nearly every passage is trapped... Fireball might catch a few off guard, but guerrilla tactics, by definition, doesn't have large groups of kobolds to target with a Fireball. And if these Tucker's Kobolds were played as smart as they're said to be, I'm sure that tactics to defeat them will be utilized in time as well. Have you ever seen that map of a kobold lair in Dragon 332? That's what I think of when imagining a kobold lair. It's a spiral of dead-ends and passageways that become dead ends, with traps every 50 feet or so. Sorta resembles a checkerboard, with all the yellow patches left and right! Drilling through 5' stone walls with adamantine weapons is painfully loud and lets kobolds prepare an ambush to end all ambushes, and there are only so many Stone to Mud and Disintegrate spells a person can toss. Don't forget that Eberron kobolds also have spellcasting support in spades with Blood Shamans. While your tactics are sound and should be adopted in order to combat the menace of Tucker's Kobolds, it isn't quite as easy as you make it sound like. We were talking about 1/2e Kobolds. This was back when a fireball FILLED 335,000 cubic feet of space. Them tight, packed tunnels? Every 10' was probably what, 90 cubic feet? We are talking THOUSANDS of feet of your 'web-like tunnels' getting filled with ONE fireball. All you have to do is block off the major vents close by, and cast and close behind. The resulting explosion would sweep clear a HUGE swathe of tunnels. Rock to Mud would obliterate them...the area covered by this spell is huge. And once you make the mud, it all has to flow downhill, yes? suffocating and drowning the low...and then we have a problem with removed support...it probably brings the higher levels of the tunnel network crashing down. Cloudkill is a massive spell that just keeps pouring on, and kills them instantly...get at the highest point of the tunnels, cast it, and let it slowly breeze on down and fill up all the multiple passageways...they are toast. Using wraithform to scout ahead by slipping through the rocks, or as an invisible Tiny creature, could do much the same. Sure, they could give a party of pure melee types a hard time. But a decent level spellcaster? I'd turn the entire lair area into mud, one huge chunk after another, and bring it all crashing down, before I put up with that stuff. I almost laughed when I saw the original article a long time ago...obviously the DM treasured his kobolds and they were a legacy monster that couldn't be wiped out, or the PC's had no imagination at all. By the rules that existed at the time, just sealing up a couple of the access tunnels, tossing a fireball in afterwards, would have decimated them. Even now, it's simply a case of obliterating the ground they hold. Maze of traps? Turn it ALL to mud. Cave-ins, drowning, mudflows...send it an earth elemental to clean up the goodies or something. Use a Wizard Eye to scout the layout of the place to determine optimal spell placement. If you can find a high point, one cloudkill flowing downhill wipes them all out. If you play the kobolds' game, sure, they can be a massive irritant. Don't play their game...play yours. ==Aelryinth