Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radazim 07-14-04, 04:14 PM	There may be spoilers for players here, so please don't read on if you don't want to learn something you shouldn't know... . . . There are lots of secrets, big and small, scattered throughout the ECS that might make great plot themes - except that nothing prevents players from reading them. (For example, the dark secrets behind the Emerald Claw and the Blood of Vol.) Do you plan on using any of the major not-so-secrets from ECS as key plot elements in your campaign? Will you trust your players not to peek, or trust that they can roleplay their character's ignorance while they know the truth? (Part of me feels like the ECS should have been published as two separate books, one for players and one for DM's.) Will you change things? Will you create your own secrets (there's certainly plenty of opportunities to do so). It seems foolish (or risky at the least) to base a key plot arc on a secret that is published in the ECS, but it also seems a waste to avoid them when they are so rich. How are you approaching it?
Roo 07-14-04, 04:25 PM	I've already told my prospective players to not visit these (or other Eberron related) forums and to not buy anything Eberron related. Unfortunately, that's the only way to maintain the secrecy. As you point out, there's spoilers EVERYWHERE. I don't like it, but there it is. Eberron is replacing Forgotten Realms for me - I got in on FR when the very first stuff came out and been DM'ing in it since then. I'm probably going to sell my FR stuff and get every Eberron thing that comes out. :) If WotC loses out on sales because they insisted on putting all the spoiler material smattered throughout the entire sourcebook, that's their loss. :(
Sebby 07-14-04, 04:35 PM	Yes, it's an unfortunate choice of structure for the book. Back in the days of boxed sets, you would have had a player's book and a separate DM's book (and a map!). The secrets would not have been carelessly sprinkled here and there for players to pickup. As far as roleplaying ignorance goes, I don't beleive it's a lot of fun. It's like seeing a movie with forknowledge of every plot twists. Feigned surprise is not surprise at all. As it is now, the book could have had a player section and a DM section. Now, I know my players will buy, or have bought already, the book. I told them to not read beyond chapter 6 (Adventuring Equipment). They certainly should not read Anything from chapter 8 (Organizations) and beyond. But chapter 7 (Life in the World) is problematic. I would have liked very much to allow it, so that players could get some knowledge of the world. But a lot of the secrets are plainly given out in the text. They even say where Vol lives (Dr. Evil's Secret Evil Lair anyone?)! As it is, I'll have to prepare some kind of primer for the nations and history, and that means more work that could have been avoided.
KCDinc 07-14-04, 05:18 PM	Well honestly speaking when a 'secret' like these are published in any way or form a player that wants to get this info can. Even if you seperated it into a completely different book its still coming down to an honor system. I agree the ECS could have been split a little better into DM/PC sections. But overall the big spoilers like Kaus I=Kaus III seem to me more examples, rather then specific instances of what you should use for intrugie. So for example while the PCs at least on a meta level are not surprised by the vampire king, they will be shocked as heck if a run a game where it turns out the mayor of Sharn has been posessed by a pit fiend. I just view the exposed secrets as helping to define the flavor of the setting.
Roo 07-14-04, 05:27 PM	Originally posted by KCDinc Well honestly speaking when a 'secret' like these are published in any way or form a player that wants to get this info can. Even if you seperated it into a completely different book its still coming down to an honor system. I hope my players are more honest (for themselves & respect for me) than that. They should know better (than to go looking for information) - and if they magically accidently drop some knowledge they shouldn't have had, there will be what I like to call "wandering damage". The biggest pain is what information & how to dissimenate it to them.
Sebby 07-14-04, 07:10 PM	Yes sure, honesty's all there is to it. It just helps if the limits are set clearly from the start. I'm not worried about my players being dishonest, I'm more worried about them "stumbling" on something they should not know in their eagerness to read the book.
primemover003 07-14-04, 10:41 PM	This is why I'm running my campaign in Xen'drik and leaving Korvaire alone... nothing to tie my hands or give away plot secrets!
tylerthehobo 12-23-04, 01:54 PM	Chances are if you're playing FR with experienced players, they know a lot of the old secrets, too. It depends on your group. Mine are mixed between the folks who can pull off the non-meta-gaming (ie. not overplaying their hand as to what they the players know versus what their characters know) and those who like to sneak peeks. It comes down to how much roleplaying vs. hack&slash&puzzlesolving is going on. Could an Intelligence 7 rogue really know all the background on the Blood of Vol or whatnot, anyway?
motorfirebox 12-23-04, 02:16 PM	eh, i dunno. to me, it doesn't matter so much that the players know who Vol is--it matters that they don't know what Vol is doing. i guess i'm used to running Shadowrun, where most players have a solid notion of who the bad guys could be--they just don't know which bad guy they're facing off against this week. BoV is perfect for wheels-within-wheels type conspiracies, without ever even facing off against Vol directly. better yet? use the fact that the players know the scorecard against them. you could do a long-running game where the PCs keep knocking heads with what they think is the BoV, but it turns out that it's an Inspired plot that uses BoV resources as a stalking horse.
scaryfroman 12-23-04, 02:31 PM	Well, as far as things go, I've really been wanting to run an adventure where the players break someone out of Dreadhold, of course being Kaius III (not explicitly mentioned, but not a big leap of imagination). Besides that, I am usually a player, and have read the ECS front to back several times. I hope it won't be much of a problem for me, but I won't know for a while. One of my characters, a Valenar elf who is the lone survivor of a massacre by Karrnathi undead troops, is hoping to slay Kaius when he gets that kind of power. That probably wont happen until another campaign that he plays in, but it is posing problems for me. I have been trying to figure out a way for him to learn of Kaius's true nature, but have been stumped. I figure i will give him the Nemesis feat from BoED and as soon as he sees Kaius, he will know that he is undead. Besides that, it is pretty hard to not show it in the character.
Edymnion 12-23-04, 02:42 PM	It really boils down to how mature your players are. Not just physically or mentally mature, but mature as D&D players. For example, I've read the ECS. I know the "secrets" in it, and it gives me a better understanding of the setting. However, I'm also the one that had to stop and remind some other players in a game I'm in that we don't know about Vol, or any of the rest of it. Being able to seperate in game and out of game knowledge is a valuable skill.
polt 12-23-04, 03:11 PM	I agree. The info in the ECS is very bad placed. Want to know how healing works in the Mournlands? Look under society... I've just told my players not to read the ECS, though im conviced they wouldn't meta-game, the effect is still much greater when theyh don't know the king of kaius is really a vamp :D
stone_dog 12-23-04, 03:36 PM	So there are secrets. Personally, I don't see the big deal. Players who will want to abuse the information will hunt it down no matter where you put it and players who know better will be able to play around it just fine. I will probably play a raid on Vol's stronghold sooner or later. It doesn't bother me in the least that the players can just open up the book and know where it is because the characters can't. Hell, I wouldn't care if the Players went out and read through the published adventures so long as they did their part as actors and made things interesting. Did Indy search every 10 square feet for traps? No, he just knew where they were and it was good. He also had a plan to deal with the Ark. blow it to back to God and get back the girl. I could easily see that being a published adventure that the player read ahead in. "Oh, I can just shoot a rocket at the box during this procession after getting the girl back and make my excape." But one little twist from the GM... I mean director and... well... we know how that worked out. More on this in a bit... I have to go to work. I have pretty bad timing for this sort of thing. ;)
polt 12-23-04, 04:10 PM	Well, i don't think the problem is that the players might use and abuse the information, it's more that it's a much bigger surprise if the players doesn't know stuff.
SirLoin 12-23-04, 06:47 PM	I know someone who made copies of sections he only wanted his players to read. *cough* Anywho, I think if the player were to read a section they were not supposed to eventually it would become evident and through roleplaying they would incriminate themselves through a slip-up. At which point you penalize them. I find the hardest part is feeding them very important info, such as the signifigance of Byshk (spelling) so that they can prepare for what you throw at them in the future, but then they take it lightly and don't use the knowledge.
PoeticJustice 12-23-04, 07:26 PM	Personally, I always read the last page of a book before I buy it. What I focus on as a DM is memorable encounters and adventures. The cataclysmic battle at the end is a must if they (PCs) can get there, but unless you have a NICE set of players (read: not mine) you can count on them heading left when they should head right, Crit failing when they need to save, missing a clue, forgetting to cast detect magic and all that other stuff. But you know what? I LOVE it that way, even more than the sweeping drama of a 40-week long campaign. Now, if you want a really good recurring villain, a recommend making your own. The leaders described in ECS are way too powerful to take on average heroes. Free-style your own, connecting them to whatever orgs you want (one of my villains that I'm intorducing tonight is a Half-Vampire son of Kaius) If you want the PCs to go against the other villains described in ECS, do it as an epilogue to the campaign, not the climax. Furthermore, their are several organizations that are so loosely detailed they could having anything in them. Nobody knows jack about the Lords of Dust or whatever The Aurum might have cooking. The chamber of Cardinals is pregnant with intrigue, yet is also vaguely defined. Never be afraid to flex your creative muscles, it is the only thing that keeps D&D moving along.
Siberys 12-23-04, 08:02 PM	That's what Knowledge/ Intelligence checks are for. You may truly know something in real life. to show your character has heard/knows something, make an appropriate check. For instance, to show your Character actually knows about Vol being behind The Emerald Claw, Have him make a Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) check With a DC of like 40 or 50. If you fail, you roleplay him like he doesn't Know. Of course, if your character met Vol, no check would be needed (although this is probobly far-fetched)
Sucros 12-23-04, 08:26 PM	The way my group is playing is that our characters have a bit of knowledge derived from their background. (Our warforged knows of the LoB, for example, and Kalashtar would undoubtedly know of the dreaming dark). Anything game related (Such as "Vol's alive") requires high DC knowledge checks.
Siberys 12-23-04, 08:34 PM	Makes sense. I'll use it, Sucros. :88E:
SirLoin 12-23-04, 08:44 PM	That's what Knowledge/ Intelligence checks are for. You may truly know something in real life. to show your character has heard/knows something, make an appropriate check. For instance, to show your Character actually knows about Vol being behind The Emerald Claw, Have him make a Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) check With a DC of like 40 or 50. If you fail, you roleplay him like he doesn't Know. Of course, if your character met Vol, no check would be needed (although this is probobly far-fetched) My players, enroute to Rukaan Draal joined a caravan. The journey lasted 7 days. During that time the caravan driver would sit by the campfire telling lore about different regions of Argonessen and such. What that equated to in game terms is that I gave a freebie to the players whom were paying attention. Knowledge (Argonessen) 1. Now when they hear abstract rumors or have unique situations I have them make a role on their knowledge skill. Since it is Int based, the smarter players gain their Int bonus to the role for retaining the info. It seems to have worked well so far, and since they have no bard it helps alot as a GM to feed them knowledge this way.
Bluebrush 12-23-04, 08:45 PM	(Such as "Vol's alive") Um...
AvonRekaes 12-23-04, 08:57 PM	I think the placement of spoilers was largely irresponsible as well. I went to such an extent that I started cutting up Post-It notes and sticking them over sentences and paragraphs that I felt no average person would know. Then I folded Post-It notes around the edges of pages, so that smalls sections and entire chapters would be off limits. Things I precluded from PC knowledge were the Dreaming Dark in its entirety, the culture of the Serens (because supposedly *no one* has gone there and made it back), various political intruigues (*coughKaiuscough*), and a few other things that others probably would not agree with (I covered-up any mention of Siberys dragonmarks, including the entire Heir of Siberys PRC, because they're so rare.) I play with two groups, separated by a few thousand miles (My college friends and my hometown friends). My college group has read the un-post-it-noted book and my hometown group has read my "PC Proofed" copy. I DM for my hometown game, and let me tell you, the looks on my player's faces when the poop hits the fan.. I think it's worth it to got to any extreme.
KathyNoland 12-24-04, 03:42 AM	Also remember that you could change things: Maybe Vol is not the true leader of the Blood of Vol and there's a dragon who uses her to his own plans because it is said in the prophecy... Change some things and leave others as they are. That will drive mad your players and it will be funny for all not to know everything about the setting.
taski 12-24-04, 03:43 AM	I only play with one other person, and we switch DMing. As players, there's no way around the fact that we already know the secrets, but we do make use of the knowledge, investigative, and deductive skills/feats to decide what a character knows. As DMs, we can set up plots that either don't involve the published secrets, flesh out the non-secret parts (the puplic tenants of the blood of vol), or flesh out the secrets in unexpected ways (Kaius the fearsome vampire loves puppies).
The Axeman Cometh 12-24-04, 06:51 AM	I think quite a few of you are getting unnecessarily, and quite unfairly, hysterical. I agree with Edymnion - it does boil down to how mature your players are. I and most of my group have been playing D&D for at least a decade. There aren't any canon secrets anymore and if there were it wouldn't matter if the players knew them or not. All the guys I play with can separate what they know from what their characters know and if your players can't do that then you should have a word with them. With respect to the poster who said this, I think "wandering damage" is a poor substitute for just making sure that you and your players have a shared understanding of what their characters do and don't know. If your players know how to roleplay, then they'll be able to cope with knowing out-of-character secrets. They'll be able to roleplay their character, and an integral part of playing the character is knowing what the character knows and how he thinks. If your player doesn't do that then take him aside and explain what he or she is doing wrong. If they understand and change, then the problem's solved. If they don't understand then perhaps you've picked the wrong player to play with you. It comes with experience, but don't knock the writer for assuming that your players know how to play.
polt 12-24-04, 07:05 AM	Again, i must say this: I think it sucks that there are so many big secrets in the ECS, BUT NOT BECAUSE MY PLAYERS WILL ABUSE THE INFO. I don't think its any kind of advantage to know that Kaius is a vampire, or that Vol is behind the Emerald Claw. The thing is that no matter how good a roleplayer you are, you simply can't get surprised by something you already know, well your character can, but it's not the character i want to surprise. It's like when you are trying to make something spooky, it's not the characters i need to spook, it's the players.
Laskaw 12-24-04, 10:11 AM	Personally, I honestly would like my players to pursue the secrets in the ECS. I know for me the secrets in Eberron helped to peak my interest in the setting, and I would like my players to have a high level of interest in the setting too. I'd like to be able to geekily talk about the setting with the players to see what they like, see what I like, and overall encourage enthusiasm. (Plus, it's too hard to deal with a player who's also DMing or DMed an Eberron camp -- you can't exactly take away the information they already have.) True, you do lose that surprise if the secrets actually come up in-session, but it's a minor loss IMO. Plus, at least for me, there's also a kinda giddy feeling that comes with the fact that you know something, but your PC doesn't. Besides, there's more secrets that can be developed, and some new secrets can be built on top of old ones. (Kaius is really a vampire, and he recently made Merrix d'Cannith his vampire slave to force him to create more warforged to strike against Vol and the Emerald Claw. The LoB learns of this and allies himself with Kaius, but only so he has an opportunity to recruit Kaius's warforged and make an opportunistic attack against the fleshlings.)
Kurotowa 12-24-04, 11:20 AM	Personally, I just love that they put all these secrets out there for everyone to see. Why? Because they're beautiful plot hooks and character details just waiting to be used. PC's are not nobodies, even the 1st level ones. They're heroes and have heroic stories. A member of the Blood of Vol who discovers the connection with the Emerald Claw and has to flee before his former friends silence him. A new warforged created by one of the two forges, with a special mission from her "father" to strive for. A kalashtar from Adar hunting a Dreaming Dark agent that killed his master, who can't be sure who is or isn't telepathically compromised. Queen Etrigani's neice, who the Queen has begged to seek out a cure for vamparism so that King Kaius might be saved. A shaman of the Seren who has been sent by the Chamber to help track down a rogue dragon that's fled to Khorvaire. A gnome sent by the Trust to infiltrate House Thuranni and see if the new assassin house is a threat to Zilargo, but has his own agenda he plans to use both to advance. Without that information none of those characters would be possible. It's easy for the DM to say, "That isn't part of you character background, make a Knowledge check or you don't know that." It's harder to leave it to the players to create all the secrets and conspiracies to make their character backgrounds interesting. I love Eberron because it puts this information out there for us to use.
polt 12-24-04, 11:58 AM	Of course those characters are possible: The character can just discover the connetion between the EC and the BoV ingame, the gnome can get contacted by the Trust, the Kalashtars mentor get killed during another adventure.
Kurotowa 12-24-04, 12:52 PM	Of course those characters are possible: The character can just discover the connetion between the EC and the BoV ingame, the gnome can get contacted by the Trust, the Kalashtars mentor get killed during another adventure. You're talking about plots that the DM involves the PCs in. I'm talking about how players make their PCs interesting and dramatic. They're not the same thing at all. Pulp heroes lead exciting lives. They get caught up in events that drag them into dramatic entanglements. They have goals beyond getting rich and leveling up. They have mysterious pasts with rivals and sworn foes and broken hearts and a purpose that drives them to become a hero. I'd bored with starting as a nobody until the Plot hits me. I want to be a deep cover agent who loyalties are suspect. I want to be on the run because I Know Too Much. I want to be the only one who can change the fate of the kingdoms with my secret mission. I want to be hunting my ex-best friend who betrayed our master and stole the magic crystal and I must defeat him before its powers are unlocked. I want to be sent on a holy quest by those I worship that may lead me to question everything I believe. In Eberron, I can be all those things. Because the book doesn't hide the setting from me or play games about what the truth is. If my character doesn't know something, then I don't play them as knowing it. But if I want to I can create someone with heroic qualities and a heroic background.
stone_dog 12-24-04, 03:14 PM	:: applauds Kurotowa :: Well put! Sure, you can feed players little tidbits of info, but I'd rather somebody comes to me pointing at a part of the ECS saying "I want to be involved in this!" "I want to be the Right Hand of Kaius I." "I want to put Kaius III back on the throne or avenge his death." "I want to be a vampire hunter like Van Helsing with Kaius as my Dracula." Any one of these things I am perfectly happy with. The surprises come when I put in things that AREn't in the book, not contradicted by the book and directly affect the character. "I'm about to level up, I think I'll..." "Be summoned by your Lord and Master to have the first level of Hooded Disciple applied in preparation to become his vampiric second in command." "Wha?" "Kaius I believes you are ready to begin accepting greater power. Do you accept the commands of your Lord?" "The first dictates of Kaius III is to start building forces to begin another War to unite Khorvaire." "Wait a minute... you mean I deposed the evil vampire lord, put the rightful heir on the throne and he is making things WORSE." "Yep. Apparently he got some pretty odd ideas from some book he was given in Dreadhold." You know, that sort of thing. Just off the top of my head. And if you think that you can't creep players out if they know what is coming, I feel for them. Both I and my players have had moments where we knew almost exactly what was coming. Knew it was going to be terrible. Knew that we did NOT want to open that door. KNEW that the court wizard was a black fiend of unrivaled evil (ah, Alurax... my recurring fiend. Kind of a draconic Nyarlathotep. Got him from Everway). It was like watching a horror movie, but with deeper emotional content. Watching somebody who actually lets horror and mood seep into their brain is beautiful. Watching somebody like that deal with a Vampire King that their character doesn't know is a vampire king is like watching somebody disarm a bomb. On the surface, the character is all cool and proud to be in the presence of Royalty. Behind the scenes, the player is sweating, just a bit. Waiting for me to describe the smile of the King as a bit more predatory. Waiting for the eyes to flash crimson for just a moment. Wondering if the bomb will go off. Holding their breath until everything is over. God help me, I love it so. I would gamble any campaign secret just to get that moment out of one player.
The Fireballed Mage 12-24-04, 05:54 PM	Also remember, your players know the secrets in the ECS. They don't know the secrets of your game. Play with the book (as it has many well designed plot and secrets), but if it appears that the players are abusing knowledge, change things. If the party goes hunting on Vol's island armed with undead-bashing equipment for no good reason, let them find Vol's castle. They storm the place, lay waste the the guardians and finally plunge into the throne room... To find an empty corspe there on the throne, desicated and most certainly unanimated. Meanwhile, the elf Queen of Karrnath watches the party's confusion on her scrying mirror as she let her shapechange spell wane, revealing the hollow, shrunken figure of one who was dead long before the Last War began. Getting Kasis to marry her had been a stroke of genius --considering she was the one who had cursed him to undeath-- but now that the party of fools would spread rumours that Vol was no more it would give her the freedom to finish the ritual. In time she would have the resources of kingdom at her command, a secret army obeying her whims, a religion she led... and the returned body of a living elf with the full powers of the Mark of Death. House Vol would live again. See? If you want to shock characters or the players abuse knowledge, all it takes is a little work on the DM's part.
polt 12-24-04, 06:00 PM	Well, i almost always start with the player being lvl 1, and when they are lvl 1, i don't want them to be involved in all sorts of big schemes, agenda and missions, i want them to get those, and grow, through the campaign. And besides, if the characters want a twist on their characters, they ask me "okey, i wanna be part of some kind of secret agency, is that possible?", and if i want them to know about the trust, i'll just say yes.
dentris 12-24-04, 06:00 PM	The Fireballed Mage, you're perfectly right, because no matter what you do, some players will do anything to learn the secrets behind a campaign setting. A simple twist, or a new element is usually enough to keep some secrets and some nasty suprises :D :eek: :D
Kurotowa 12-25-04, 12:55 AM	Well, i almost always start with the player being lvl 1, and when they are lvl 1, i don't want them to be involved in all sorts of big schemes, agenda and missions, i want them to get those, and grow, through the campaign. John Campbell once gave Issac Asimov a very good piece of advice. If your story isn't working you're starting it in the wrong place, almost certainly too early. A lot of the new books I see today fail to remember this rule. I have to slog through 50 or 100 pages of dull buildup, that could easily be reduced to a few pages of summery and exposition, before I get the interesting parts of the story. In the worst cases entire books will go by before the main action starts. I've been in too many games that had the same failing. Weeks of wasted time killing kobalds and skeletons before we were able to do anything FUN. That's one of the reasons I love Eberron. It removes the stigma of low level PC's being wussy nobodies. A 1st level Fighter isn't a raw farmboy, he's as good or better than most of the army grunts (who're 1st or 2nd level Warriors). Even at low level characters have histories and experiences and are involved in thrilling action adventure stories. And really, isn't it better for the DM to have all these lovely plot hooks and adventure seeds right there? Ones that the player has made clear they're not going to avoid or complain about being railroaded into or try to beg extra money out of.
grey muse 12-25-04, 02:46 AM	I don't think the issue is the players having the knowledge. It's the players being forced into having the knowledge they may not want, because the layout is bad. I'm running Eberoon right now, and I pull a lot of stuff from the books -- my players haven't read it. I know when I was looking through the stuff on the countries, I ran into a sidebar with a big heading saying, "Kaius Revealed", and learned of his true nature before I really had a chance to think about whether I wanted to know it or not. I'm not so concerned about things like Vol's existance showing up in the players' description of the religion on page 70 (though I think it would've been better if it were clear it were named after the house, not the lich queen.) I'm more frustrated with the fact that I can't just give the players the book and say, "Don't read the DM section or you'll ruin it for yourself," because there's not a section they can avoid -- anything they try to read, they may stumble on something they don't want to know. grey muse
crazysamaritan 12-25-04, 02:57 AM	Besides that, I am usually a player, and have read the ECS front to back several times. I hope it won't be much of a problem for me, but I won't know for a while. Don't worry, by now, Tik could probably figure out wwho LoB is, and what he has, but it doesn't matter, as you'll be running from him very quickly... I mean really, at this level you know it's smarter to run away than it is to try and fight his troops.... of course, at some point, Tik must worry about his changling nature being discovered, the people following the party, and the strange mark on the warlock's necklace... My-oh-my, I had this plan of intrigue with just the book, and what did I get, characters with odd histories... a changling on the run from the 'mob', a warlock from the mournlands, raised by the gatekeepers, and two 'forged that have more history then they reveal... (or rather, less...) The tiny amounts of evidence are great for toying with player's minds... I mean, Scary knows that since LoB is level 12, I won't send him after Tik, but does Tik know? Tik doesn't even know if LoB is a forged... No does Tik know what the book is about... of course, scary doesn't either... :devil: ohh, I just love toying with their minds...