Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Errant 11-08-04, 09:44 AM	Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but I'm having trouble understanding "binding elementals" idea. 1. Does that mean an Elemental is actually imprisoned inside the item? As in a sentient being from one of the elemental planes? (True their intelligence scores don't reflect a high level of intelligence, but still...) 2. Is it possible to "unbind" an elemental & release it from the item it was bound to? Seems to me if living thinking creatures were being summoned & imprisoned for the convenience of the common races there'd be a lot of very angry elemental elders/princes (their subjects/children? keep getting kidnapped/stolen away after all) and probably more than a few people who view it as slavery. Of course I could just declare that "binding" merely means an elemental is summoned during the creation process to help infuse the item in question with some sort of elemental resonance or echo of the elementals essence... ie the elemental isn't imprisoned, just called upon to help focus the creation magic. But what I've read of the ECS (still working through it) seems to suggest elemental beings are imprisoned & enslaved within the items they're bound to. 3. Doesn't this bother anyone else?
Gurv 11-08-04, 10:30 AM	Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but I'm having trouble understanding "binding elementals" idea. 1. Does that mean an Elemental is actually imprisoned inside the item? As in a sentient being from one of the elemental planes? (True their intelligence scores don't reflect a high level of intelligence, but still...) 2. Is it possible to "unbind" an elemental & release it from the item it was bound to? Seems to me if living thinking creatures were being summoned & imprisoned for the convenience of the common races there'd be a lot of very angry elemental elders/princes (their subjects/children? keep getting kidnapped/stolen away after all) and probably more than a few people who view it as slavery. Of course I could just declare that "binding" merely means an elemental is summoned during the creation process to help infuse the item in question with some sort of elemental resonance or echo of the elementals essence... ie the elemental isn't imprisoned, just called upon to help focus the creation magic. But what I've read of the ECS (still working through it) seems to suggest elemental beings are imprisoned & enslaved within the items they're bound to. 3. Doesn't this bother anyone else? 1. It has come up before. It seems that an elemental is in fact trapped in the item, and is used to power the various effects. All items created with the Bind Elemental feat use planar binding as a prerequisite, and the feat specifies that you must compel to accept the binding. 2. Unbinding an elemental hasn't been covered. There is little question that if the item holding the elemental is destroyed that the elemental is released, but it is up to the DM whether the elemental rampages around, or if it just vanishes back to its home plane. There is a short story somewhere (was it in the Korranberg Chronicle) about a fire elemental getting free from a lightning rail, but they got that back under control. Nothing has been mentioned about the feelings the inhabitants of the planes have on the binding of elementals. Mostly, the elementals being bound are barely sentient. Akin to if someone were stealing a couple of animals from our plane as beasts of burden. Not a big deal if it was a horse here, a couple of chickens there, and the occassional elephant...from the entire Earth! Then again, I'm sure that someone would eventually catch on and take offense. But its unlikely that the outsiders as a whole view it as a big problem. 3. Bother anyone? Other than the occassional elemental ruler who is missing his favorite fire elemental? Most people don't have the magical expertise to know much about elementals. They certainly don't have a Monster Manual to tell them that the elementals are intelligent. If anyone in Eberron even thinks about it, they likely assume it is little different that using a horse for labor. Just a lot more useful, a little more risky, and something that they wish didn't cost so darned much! The question if it is unethical certainly exists. But the average Joe taking the lightning rail on a business trip doesn't have the facts he'd need to worry about it. Having your players learn that the elementals are slaves, forced to work for alien creatures far from home, might be an interesting plot device. But half the battle would be convincing the general populace that there is even anything wrong at all; the other haf would be getting them to agree that freeing some sentient fire is worth the cost of slower transportation, or giving up a great magical item.
Errant 11-08-04, 10:54 AM	1. It has come up before. It seems that an elemental is in fact trapped in the item, and is used to power the various effects. All items created with the Bind Elemental feat use planar binding as a prerequisite, and the feat specifies that you must compel to accept the binding. Well that seems to answer the imprisoned question pretty convincingly. Thanks. 2. Unbinding an elemental hasn't been covered. There is little question that if the item holding the elemental is destroyed that the elemental is released, but it is up to the DM whether the elemental rampages around, or if it just vanishes back to its home plane. There is a short story somewhere (was it in the Korranberg Chronicle) about a fire elemental getting free from a lightning rail, but they got that back under control. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation on that... Nothing has been mentioned about the feelings the inhabitants of the planes have on the binding of elementals. Mostly, the elementals being bound are barely sentient. Akin to if someone were stealing a couple of animals from our plane as beasts of burden. Not a big deal if it was a horse here, a couple of chickens there, and the occassional elephant...from the entire Earth! Then again, I'm sure that someone would eventually catch on and take offense. But its unlikely that the outsiders as a whole view it as a big problem. No big deal? In our world we have animal activists raiding research labs & doing all sorts to save animals. I'm sure a world like Eberron would have its own version of Elemental Rights Activists (ERAs). Probably featuring many druids, working hard to figure out how to release them from their captivity no doubt. 3. Bother anyone? Other than the occassional elemental ruler who is missing his favorite fire elemental? Most people don't have the magical expertise to know much about elementals. They certainly don't have a Monster Manual to tell them that the elementals are intelligent. If anyone in Eberron even thinks about it, they likely assume it is little different that using a horse for labor. Just a lot more useful, a little more risky, and something that they wish didn't cost so darned much! The question if it is unethical certainly exists. But the average Joe taking the lightning rail on a business trip doesn't have the facts he'd need to worry about it. Having your players learn that the elementals are slaves, forced to work for alien creatures far from home, might be an interesting plot device. But half the battle would be convincing the general populace that there is even anything wrong at all; the other haf would be getting them to agree that freeing some sentient fire is worth the cost of slower transportation, or giving up a great magical item. Not to mention an entire industry has sprung up around the practice. I imagine there would be at least a couple of houses VERY keen to keep the masses ignorant of where the power comes from, if only to minimize the rise of ERAs across Khorvaire. I feel an adventure/campaign idea brewing: ERAs casting Greater Dispel Magic, or Mages Disjunction, or using a Rod of Cancellation to release the angry(!) elementals. Bystanders are confused by the sudden appearance of angry elementals at first, but as events continue they start to get suspicious. House agents desperately eliminate or compromise witnesses while searching for those responsible...
Vrellum 11-08-04, 11:02 AM	Why eliminate the witnesses? I imagine the witness would be a lot angrier at the ERA group that set the elemental lose that killed his brother than anyone else. The ERA groups if they existed would be seen as fringe loonies by the vast majority of people and criminals if they went around releasing enraged elementals.
Hanuman47 11-08-04, 11:35 AM	The ERA cause seems like something the Ashbound Druidic sect would take an interest in, or even be the founders of.
Gurv 11-08-04, 06:35 PM	No big deal? In our world we have animal activists raiding research labs & doing all sorts to save animals. I'm sure a world like Eberron would have its own version of Elemental Rights Activists (ERAs). Probably featuring many druids, working hard to figure out how to release them from their captivity no doubt. Like I said. Not a big deal to most people. Some people might take notice, sure. But like the animal activists that break into labs and free animals, those people are the radical fringe. For the most part, people don't care and think the people who do are nuts. Not to mention an entire industry has sprung up around the practice. I imagine there would be at least a couple of houses VERY keen to keep the masses ignorant of where the power comes from, if only to minimize the rise of ERAs across Khorvaire. I agree that Houses Cannith, Orien, and Lyrander would be especially likely to want things kept quiet. I don't think they believe what they are doing is wrong, but if they discovered it was, sure they'd be hushing thing! I think a game around the idea of elemental slavery might be interesting. Of course, these are imaginary creatures we are talking about. In a D&D world, there might be nothing wrong with enslaving something that isn't sentient in the same way as other things. That is something that is up to you. In fact, you don't even have to make that decision. As long as someone thinks it is wrong, they can be antagonists. Maybe the players will be the ones who prove that elementals don't mind being slaves!
MarkB 11-08-04, 07:00 PM	I'm not too keen on the idea of so much of the gameworld's basic economy, including that of the 'good' guys, being based upon slavery, so for my gameworld, I've ruled that basic elementals of the sort that can be summoned and bound are simply expressions of their respective elemental forces, and their sentience is merely a reflection of the basic nature of those forces - they have no individual personality or sense of self, anymore than a single bee in a hive, or cell in a body. There are element-related beings (elemental princes, as well as a variety of more specialised creatures) with true sentience and individuality, but they don't make suitable subjects for bound-elemental items, which rely upon the elementals' lack of individuality for their predictable effects. The general public don't know the difference, those with a passing knowledge of elementals may question the morality of binding them, but those who have good planar knowledge, and those who actually work with elemental binding, are well aware of the distinction, and the ones with any conscience would never consider binding a true individual into an item.
Errant 11-08-04, 11:04 PM	I guess I always took the size & intelligence progression (small through huge & 4-11 respectively) of the different types of elementals to suggest a growth progression similar to other races progressing from childhood to adulthood with elemental princes being an advanced species of the same genus. A/p the SRD, "No creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal", so elementals are more than that. They have intelligent (unlike golems), perception, language & while they don't need to eat, sleep or breath, they're not immune to mind-affecting effects. That suggests to me sentience & maybe I've watched too much star trek but imprisoning & exploiting sentient beings does not seem like a Good thing. Now take into consideration Eberron's take on alignment & the moral ambiguity that appears to be a feature of the world and I think that supports the idea that elementals are being enslaved against there will. I can see the pioneers of Elemental Binding rationalising their actions along Gurv's lines (no offense Gurv) & most of the general public, not knowing any better, falling for it when they're told elementals are just mindless energy sources. Bear in mind Eberronites (?) live in a world surrounded by all sorts of strange looking beings & while most will never actually meet a dragon, a daelkyr, or couatl, they will likely have heard or read stories about them. Take into account the influence of Church of the Silver Flame & other organisations dedicated to principles of goodness & I'm sure there would be more than just Ashbound druids that would object to enslaving any sentient being, including elementals! Don't get me wrong, I think elemental powered ships & trains etc are totally cool & I don't want to eliminate them from the game world. But since I think the current representation suggests they're enslaved, and I think slavery is Wrong, how can elementals be enticed to serve willingly? I think the discovery that bound elementals are enslaved, exposing that fact, freeing the bound elementals and searching for a way to entice elementals to power sky ships & the lightning rail willingly could form the basis of a great series of adventures. So what could elementals get from Eberron that would make them serve willingly?
Pinky's brain 11-08-04, 11:36 PM	You would think there is an agreement with the elemental princes on this matter, otherwise they would surely go to war once the planes are coterminous ... maybe we are just getting the mentally retarded elementals. Pretty strange that planar binding is only an evil spell when compelling evil creatures BTW.
Gurv 11-08-04, 11:41 PM	A/p the SRD, "No creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal", so elementals are more than that. They have intelligent (unlike golems), perception, language & while they don't need to eat, sleep or breath, they're not immune to mind-affecting effects. That suggests to me sentience & maybe I've watched too much star trek but imprisoning & exploiting sentient beings does not seem like a Good thing. Keep in mind that that definition is for the purpose of placing creatures into Types and Subtypes; both game terms. I can see the pioneers of Elemental Binding rationalising their actions along Gurv's lines (no offense Gurv) & most of the general public, not knowing any better, falling for it when they're told elementals are just mindless energy sources. None taken. That is, in fact, what I was trying to convey: not whether I thought elemental binding was ethical or not but the reasons that people who might otherwise object do not do so. I speak not of my own opinion, but of those of the imaginary people who live in my mind:looloo: Ignorance and misinformation are indeed among the greatest tools of evil; tools so powerful that they can cause even good creatures to do evil. Continuing to play the daelkyr-advocate, remember that the conventions of the real world may or may not exist in Eberron. As you point out, the world is filled with strange creatures. Many of them may have Int scores above 4, but that does not mean that all of them think the way we do. Some creatures are super-intelligent but lack the ability to understand the world we do. The ability to gauge somethings intelligence is based entirely on our ability to communicate with it. If we let the ability of something to communicate with us dictate us, then spells like speak with animals, speak with plants and so forth mean that we have to reconsider how we treat everything. If you can communicate with your warhorse via those spells, and it turns out it would rather be grazing in a field, are you going to let it do so? Or does the elemental's ability to proclaim its wish for freedom have greater merit because it has a higher score? </brainwash> But since I think the current representation suggests they're enslaved, and I think slavery is Wrong, how can elementals be enticed to serve willingly? A good question. Sounds like one the players will have a very interesting time answering.
Hellcow 11-09-04, 01:02 AM	To begin with, let me clearly state that I believe that slavery is unethical and terrible, and that the use of bound elementals is definitely a morally questionable act. So, consider these statements to be the defense of the binders, and not a defense of the practice of slavery in general. Of course, I'll also point out that hobgoblins and bugbears are just as intelligent as a humans, create civilizations, raise families, and so on -- yet many adventurers have no moral qualms about killing them and stealing their possessions. Hopefully Darguun actually makes people think about that a little harder. But I don't think that the typical D&D fantasy world is really a good place for paragons of virue and ethical behavior; once you start looking too closely, you're going to start running into all kinds of problems. 1. Does that mean an Elemental is actually imprisoned inside the item? Yes, that is what it means. Now, the key question is how the elemental feels about the situation. In the case of an elemental vessel, the elemental is aware, and in fact has to be coerced to perform with Charisma checks. The fact that a Charisma check is involved may very well mean that the elemental is content with the situation -- provided it is handled properly. After all, what do elementals do for fun normally (aside from burning things)? It may be that being part of a lightning rail is actually an exhilarating experience for the elemental. At least, that's what I'll say as an elemental binder -- prove to me the elemental is unhappy! 2. Is it possible to "unbind" an elemental & release it from the item it was bound to? In my opinion, if an object containing a bound elemental is destroyed, the elemental is returned to its plane. If the enchantment is temporarily dispelled, it is pulled back into the anchoring Khyber shard -- so you can't permanently destroy the enchantment with dispel. And breaking your sword doesn't release an angry elemental. But that is notably NOT an official answer! Seems to me if living thinking creatures were being summoned & imprisoned for the convenience of the common races there'd be a lot of very angry elemental elders/princes (their subjects/children? keep getting kidnapped/stolen away after all) and probably more than a few people who view it as slavery. In my opinion - and only my opinion - the sentient elemental creatures have little in common with the standard elemental. A fire elemental in Fernia isn't a subject; it is a roving extension of the land. What service could it provide a lord? All it does is burn, and it has an Intelligence of 4. While that is enough to qualify as an intelligent creature, I see the typical efreet as considering a fire elemental to be a wild dog as opposed to a cousin or child. And if people were stealing our wild dogs -- well, some folks might take an interest, but others would most likely shrug. As for people? This all comes down to the degree to which people understand the nature of elementals, the nature of elemental-bound objects, and their interest in the plight of non-humanoid, barely sentient creatures. I think some people certainly would be interested. The Ashbound are an excellent example, and I think most druids would consider it to be highly questionable if not outright abominable. But the average commoner? Well, more on that later. A/p the SRD, "No creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal", so elementals are more than that. Keep in mind that that definition is for the purpose of placing creatures into Types and Subtypes; both game terms. I'm with Gurv here. In my mind, the point is that you cannot have a creature that is defined as an Animal, and thus subject to all of the spells and effects that affect animals, and give it an Intelligence score of greater than three. Elementals are not animals; they are elementals, and would be elementals regardless of their intelligence. One comparison here is the griffon, which is a magical beast with an Intelligence score of over 3 -- however, griffon eggs are still sold, and griffons are trained to serve as guardians and mounts. Until recently, people had no problem with the warforged being sent to die in the service of the country that had bought them, and warforged are humanoid creatures that can speak; a lot of people just aren't going to stop and say "How intelligent is a griffon? Is it really fair for us to be selling griffon eggs?" -- they are too busy rebuilding their houses, mourning those lost in the war, and trying to bring in the harvest. And beyond that, Gurv has really hit it on the head: most people in Eberron don't know what an elemental is, let alone that it's an intelligent creature being bound against its will. Bear in mind Eberronites (?) live in a world surrounded by all sorts of strange looking beings & while most will never actually meet a dragon, a daelkyr, or couatl, they will likely have heard or read stories about them. Dragon I'll give you. Couatl and Daelkyr? Only if you make an appropriate Knowledge check (and have ranks in the skill). Daelkyr haven't been seen on the surface for seven thousand years, over twice the time humans have been on Eberron. And while most followers of the Flame may have heard of the winged serpent that joined with Tira Miron, they don't necessarily know that it is part of a species. And this is the key point. Sure, people may know that when the moons are properly aligned, creatures of living flame may emerge from large fires -- but without knowledge skills, they don't know that these are fire elementals, or what it means to be a fire elemental, or that they come from Fernia. What they DO know is that in the stories, these creatures emerge from the bonfires and start setting everything on fire. So the typical farmer is more likely to say "Thank goodness that thing is all bound up and not torching my crops" than "How can you do that to the poor mass of living fire?" That suggests to me sentience & maybe I've watched too much star trek but imprisoning & exploiting sentient beings does not seem like a Good thing. [Traveler's Advocate] What's a small fire elemental do, aside from burning things? Does it build? Create art? Literature? Is it part of a civilization? The only thing it has to prove its sentience is the power of speech, which according to the MM it rarely uses (and with an Intelligence of 4, I doubt it has much to say) -- and heck, a parrot can learn to speak. How do I know that the fire elemental isn't just parroting random phrases? It is a force of nature, and controlling nature and bending it to our ends is one of the defining elements of civilization. [/Traveler's Advocate] And more to the point, this ties to the fact that a lot of people in Eberron AREN'T Good with a capital G. I've ruled that basic elementals of the sort that can be summoned and bound are simply expressions of their respective elemental forces, and their sentience is merely a reflection of the basic nature of those forces - they have no individual personality or sense of self, anymore than a single bee in a hive, or cell in a body. There are element-related beings (elemental princes, as well as a variety of more specialised creatures) with true sentience and individuality, but they don't make suitable subjects for bound-elemental items, which rely upon the elementals' lack of individuality for their predictable effects. This is exactly my take on basic elementals. They are intelligent enough to react to situations in a creative manner. And contrary to my previous statement, they can speak, which I feel implies intelligence. But it does not imply anything resembling a human personality. As a fire elemental, you are an expression of the concept of fire -- an extension of Fernia, the sea of flame. You exist to burn. Burning is all there is. You do not contemplate philosophical matters. If you meet a human, you're not going to stop and say "Hey dude, how's it going?" in Ignan. You will continue to burn, and if the human gets in your way, burn it too. This is not an evil act: you are a force of nature, and you are merely expressing your nature. What could a human possibly offer you? You do not want possessions. You do not want food. What you want is to BURN! Is imprisoning a sentient being justified just because it is a dangerous alien creature that doesn't think like us? Not necessarily (despite my arguments above). But my point is that unlike a warforged, there is nothing human about a fire elemental -- and as a result you're less likely to win the sympathy of Joe the farmer, or find a common ground for negotiation. Take into account the influence of Church of the Silver Flame... On the contrary, I think the average priest of the Silver Flame would be much more concerned about a fire elemental running free and threatening villagers than the rights of the imprisoned elemental; a templar would in all likelihood seek to destroy the elemental as quickly as possible, not try to ascertain its sentience and find a way to return it to its home plane. The Church of the Silver Flame seeks to abolish evil, but its primary goal is to protect humanity (along with the other common races). Remember, they were willing to kill a lot of innocent lycanthropes to ensure that the curse was destroyed. And hey, they have griffon cavalry. I can certainly see a few philosophers in the Church arguing the evils of elemental binding and urging the Church to condemn it -- but to me, this would be very low on the list of priorities in comparison to fighting the Emerald Claw, the Lords of Dust, demonic incursions, human corruption, etc. In conclusion: I think that it is an ethical dilemma and one of the many morally gray areas of Eberron. I think that there are certainly sages and druids who question the practice, along with a few (notably the Ashbound) who actually fight against it. I think it would be an interesting plot to have a few powerful and intelligent elemental creatures start striking out against the Zil binders and elemental vessels -- not, in my opinion, because they truly care about the bound elementals, but to teach the frail mortals a lesson about tampering with elemental forces. But in both cases, I think the average person/intelligent elemental is either unaware of the practice or simply doesn't care about the plight of the bound elemental -- either not seeing it as intelligent or not seeing enough similarity to empathize with it. A weird thing to think about: what would happen if, today, a scientist announced that gasoline was intelligent? That it was a form of intelligence we didn't really understand, but that it even possessed some limited form of language? Obviously, this would be far worse than elemental binding, because every time you use a tank of gas, you are KILLING it. Would everyone immediately stop driving? Would they dismiss the scientist's claims? Would they say "That's really weird, but it's gas -- what's it going to do with it's life?" Add in the influence of the oil companies, who will be acting to counter the claims, producing scientific studies that show that gas actually maintains its sentience after combustion and is therefore merely metamorphosizing into a new stage of life, and so on. It's a completely different situation, and yet -- what would the bulk of the population do?
Errant 11-09-04, 12:04 PM	Awesome, not just a quick reply but an awesome in depth reply from the Man himself. Thanks for taking the time Keith! Forgive me for not replying by quoting you in full but I doubt many will forget the wording of your reply. Obviously, I feel slavery is absolutely unethical and terrible, and agree binding elementals consequently morally questionable. The key question is most definitely how the elemental feels about the situation! In the case of an elemental vessel, the elemental is aware, and in fact has to be coerced to perform with Charisma checks. The fact that a Charisma check is involved may very well mean that the elemental is content with the situation -- provided it is handled properly. Sorry, but you could just as easily say the Charisma check means bullying the elemental into submission. On the other hand, you inspired a brain wave that gives me an opening to both explain the necessity for the Charisma check AND why the elementals don’t resent their imprisonment. What if it’s a Charisma check instead of a Diplomacy or Intimidate check because you’re more trying to get the elemental’s attention than overcome its resistance? A simple creature, trapped in a strange world, surrounded by exotic things to burn, or scents in the air/ocean currents, it’d be easy to see how it could be distracted. Its too busy indulging in the sensory delights offered just by being in Eberron to head casual directions. Much like gaining control of an excited puppy/dog when you take it for a walk & it just wants to sniff the nearest tree or tear off down the street. Player: I step up to the sky ship helm and try to direct the elemental to get us out of here. GM: Ok, grasping the wheel you concentrate and sense the elemental’s mind, it’s revelling in all the clean, fresh air its consuming. Player: No worries, I tell it there’s plenty more fresh air ahead, maybe even some clouds to burn. GM: It’s really enjoying itself too much already to pay you much notice, make a Charisma check to see how well you get its attention. Scratch one moral dilemma (although the Ashbound would no doubt disagree on principle). Which was really the whole point to starting this thread. I think I can even stretch that into en explanation for how elementals could enjoy being imprisoned inside weapons or armor… In my opinion, if an object containing a bound elemental is destroyed, the elemental is returned to its plane. If the enchantment is temporarily dispelled, it is pulled back into the anchoring Khyber shard -- so you can't permanently destroy the enchantment with dispel. And breaking your sword doesn't release an angry elemental. But that is notably NOT an official answer! Good point. Destroy the thing keeping the elemental in Eberron & it goes home. Shoulda thought of that. Dragon I'll give you. Couatl and Daelkyr? Only if you make an appropriate Knowledge check (and have ranks in the skill). Daelkyr haven't been seen on the surface for seven thousand years, over twice the time humans have been on Eberron. And while most followers of the Flame may have heard of the winged serpent that joined with Tira Miron, they don't necessarily know that it is part of a species. I wasn’t trying to suggest the general public might know what a Couatl of Daelkyr IS, even if they did see one, but I thought there’d at least be bards tales about the ancient evils and divine champions that once battled over the fate of the world. Then again, how many people in our world would know any Babylonian legends? Hmmm. Good point. In conclusion: I think that it is an ethical dilemma and one of the many morally gray areas of Eberron. I think that there are certainly sages and druids who question the practice, along with a few (notably the Ashbound) who actually fight against it. I think it would be an interesting plot to have a few powerful and intelligent elemental creatures start striking out against the Zil binders and elemental vessels -- not, in my opinion, because they truly care about the bound elementals, but to teach the frail mortals a lesson about tampering with elemental forces. I think I’ve resolved (for myself at least - thanks heaps everyone that responded!) the binding issue enough to be able to say its not enslavement on an unwilling creature, even if there is still enough grey area to explain Ashbound reactions & the like. Nice to know there’s still room for a few adventure ideas there too. A weird thing to think about: what would happen if, today, a scientist announced that gasoline was intelligent? I have no doubt the oil companies would produce a huge deluge of scientific reports sufficient to confuse the issue, not to mention pour megabucks into the campaign coffers of sympathetic/ruthless politicians to maintain the status quo. Just look at the endless debates about global warming, never mind the minimal efforts to explore renewable energy sources to replace the rapidly dwindling oil reserves that currently drive world economies. I’d even go as far as to guess that if a scientist did discover a way to summon & bind intelligent elementals in our world, willing or not, the biggest obstacle would be oil companies trying to preserve their existing influence on the world economy!
Gurv 11-09-04, 01:18 PM	[Traveler's Advocate] What's a small fire elemental do, aside from burning things? Does it build? Create art? Literature? Is it part of a civilization? The only thing it has to prove its sentience is the power of speech, which according to the MM it rarely uses (and with an Intelligence of 4, I doubt it has much to say) -- and heck, a parrot can learn to speak. How do I know that the fire elemental isn't just parroting random phrases? It is a force of nature, and controlling nature and bending it to our ends is one of the defining elements of civilization. [/Traveler's Advocate] :censored: professional writers, making my point so much better than I can! This is why Keith wins Campaign Setting searches, and we have to be content to rant on public message boards! Anyone else feel like a 1st level character trying to impress others at the local tavern, while a 20th level bard blows minds with his slightest utterance from the other end of the bar? Way to be a role model for other writers, Keith! The example of the gasoline being intelligent is an interesting idea. I wonder what we would do? I, for one, would switch quickly to something else until we determined what level of intelligence, and pray that Professor Hellcow doesn't go study electricity. On the subject of his "notably NOT official answers", what do others plan on doing in their games? Keith's point about destroyed elemental items vs. temporarily dispelled ones follows the rules closest. Since planar binding has the power to return the elemental back home, it makes sense that it would do so when the elemental was released. And having the elemental pulled back into the shard when dispelled supports the short time during which the item doesn't work. I think I will make those my default answers for the small items. But in the case of the larger elemental items (the vehicles), I think I like the idea that the dispel effect would temporarily negate the binding magic and let them go, only to suck them back in when it came back on line. And for the occasional plot point, having an dangerous elemental running around after a lightning rail wreck would be interesting.
MarkB 11-09-04, 01:39 PM	On the subject of his "notably NOT official answers", what do others plan on doing in their games? Keith's point about destroyed elemental items vs. temporarily dispelled ones follows the rules closest. Since planar binding has the power to return the elemental back home, it makes sense that it would do so when the elemental was released. And having the elemental pulled back into the shard when dispelled supports the short time during which the item doesn't work. My take would be that the elemental to be bound is summoned via a Summon Monster spell, and that it's bound as promptly as possible afterwards in case the process fails first time. Once bound, the duration of the summoning spell is effectively suspended. If the binding engine's central Khyber shard is shattered, the elemental will be released, and will remain present for the remaining duration of the original summoning spell. That allows the dangerous possibility of a destroyed binding item releasing an elemental to terrorise nearby bystanders, but doesn't leave them roaming the countryside indefinitely afterwards.
Hellcow 11-09-04, 01:42 PM	What if it’s a Charisma check instead of a Diplomacy or Intimidate check because you’re more trying to get the elemental’s attention than overcome its resistance? This makes sense to me. Given that you can't use either Intimidate or Diplomacy, it logically follows that you are neither bullying or reasoning with the spirit (which ties to my idea that it's nothing like a human consciousness). This is probably the direction I will go with this in the future. Not that the Ashbound will care...
Hellcow 11-09-04, 01:45 PM	I think I can even stretch that into en explanation for how elementals could enjoy being imprisoned inside weapons or armor… Certainly interesting potential here. I can see a firebound item being content as it still gets to burn things. Your waterbound items could start to get cranky if you don't spend much time in water -- they don't actually communicate as such, but you feel the growing sense of frustation around you...
SirLoin 11-09-04, 01:59 PM	What is really gonna get your goat, is that the binding is not limited to just elementals. Well at least it doesn't say you can't, and in all regards to the rules of binding it is feasible. In fact the Shards themselves allow an exception to the rule, that is of the limitation on the duration of the binding. Any form of extra-planar creature can be bound. You could have an Arch-devil bound to a shard, stick that sucker in the Engine and you have the 'Soul Train'! You could create demon-bound or celestial-bound weapons. There exists a specific exscript in the book about The Keeper binding humans to dragon shards and adoring his lair with them. :eek:
JDubTrafficGod 11-09-04, 04:18 PM	I wasn’t trying to suggest the general public might know what a Couatl of Daelkyr IS, even if they did see one, but I thought there’d at least be bards tales about the ancient evils and divine champions that once battled over the fate of the world. Then again, how many people in our world would know any Babylonian legends? Hmmm. Good point. Not to kill your point, but most recent High School Graduates who payed attention in 11th grade English (at least in North Carolina) have to learn atleast one Babylonian legend involving a great flood. If I had payed attention then I'd know the name of the story. :D
Hellcow 11-09-04, 04:36 PM	Not to kill your point, but most recent High School Graduates who payed attention in 11th grade English (at least in North Carolina) have to learn atleast one Babylonian legend involving a great flood. If I had payed attention then I'd know the name of the story. :D Sure, but if I walked around town and asked everyone I met "Who was Utnapishtim?" how many do you think would know the answer? My point on the couatl is that most followers of the Silver Flame do know the story of the winged serpent. They just don't know that it's called a "couatl", that it's a native outisder, that at one point there were thousands of them, what their basic abilties are, or anything like that. They simply know that hey, the Silver flame may occasionally send powerful winged serpents to help the faithful. There's a difference between having basic knowledge of a myth and deeper familiarity with the myth and its source material.
JDubTrafficGod 11-09-04, 04:55 PM	Just making sure my fellow posters were informed. And did anyone else notice that when Keith is scolding you the hellcow looks a little meaner than funny, maybe its just me.
Sucros 11-09-04, 05:12 PM	This is a really neat topic, and I really like the depth you've added, Hellcow. I think some of you are still stuck in earth for this argument though. Certainly there are ashbounds who oppose the process, but they aren't going to stand outside your local comic shop and lecture you on elemental rights and try and extort donations out of you every time you try and go in. (I swear, EVERY TIME I try and buy a Dragon ...) Aside from a small breakaway sects of artificers and wizards (who would likely spend most of their time convincing their own coleagues rather than the general populace), the big group we're dealing with is the Ashbound. They are known as extremists (Imagine a radical group that contained terrorists who blew up power plants to bring civilization closer to nature). WOuld you listen to them? Furthermore, people have WAY bigger atrocities to worry about. The mournland, possibility of war, and disease are probably way more important to the populace than "Gee, I wonder if my sword is unhappy".
Errant 11-09-04, 11:23 PM	On the subject of his "notably NOT official answers", what do others plan on doing in their games? After reading and re-reading the ECSB Bind Elemental feat and the Planar Binding spell description, I note that normally a creature can escape Planar Binding “by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 your caster level + your Cha modifier). It can try each method once per day. If it break loose it can flee or attack you.” Obviously Khyber shard items would be impractical if the bound elementals had a chance of escaping or attacking every day, so using the Bind Elemental in combination with a shard must eliminate that chance. Therefore… my take would be that destroying the Khyber stone, or successfully casting Mage’s Disjunction on it, frees the elemental within it so it can flee or attack. As Dispel Magic only suppresses magic items I’ll rule it not strong enough to release the elementals within. Certainly interesting potential here. I can see a firebound item being content as it still gets to burn things. Your waterbound items could start to get cranky if you don't spend much time in water -- they don't actually communicate as such, but you feel the growing sense of frustation around you... Cool, more atmosphere I can give my players! :D What is really gonna get your goat, is that the binding is not limited to just elementals… Any form of extra-planar creature can be bound. I had actually already considered this, and decided non-elemental bindings would be both rare AND more severe in the moral implications. Binding a fully sentient being against its will would definitely be enslaving it & therefore Evil. That’s not to say an immortal celestial might not agree to be bound into a suitable weapon to aid mortal efforts to battle evil & fiends might enjoy the chance to reek mayhem in the mortal world. Not to kill your point, but most recent High School Graduates who payed attention in 11th grade English (at least in North Carolina) have to learn atleast one Babylonian legend involving a great flood. If I had payed attention then I'd know the name of the story. :D Actually that as much proves my point as kills it. Clearly some ancient legends are out in the public domain. Beyond generalities though I agree with Keith, those that have heard the legends about couatl merely heard “the Silver flame may occasionally send powerful winged serpents to help the faithful.”
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 11-10-04, 04:28 AM	Certainly interesting potential here. I can see a firebound item being content as it still gets to burn things. Your waterbound items could start to get cranky if you don't spend much time in water -- they don't actually communicate as such, but you feel the growing sense of frustation around you... Would this concept be further compounded to a Warforged who happened to have an elemental bound into them? Also, related issue: What would an item bound with several different elementals in it be like? It's currently possible, if expensive, with some of the armor abilities...
Gurv 11-10-04, 06:00 PM	Would this concept be further compounded to a Warforged who happened to have an elemental bound into them? Also, related issue: What would an item bound with several different elementals in it be like? It's currently possible, if expensive, with some of the armor abilities... You've seen the Mournlands, right?
Just another user 11-13-04, 03:02 PM	I had actually already considered this, and decided non-elemental bindings would be both rare AND more severe in the moral implications. Binding a fully sentient being against its will would definitely be enslaving it & therefore Evil. That’s not to say an immortal celestial might not agree to be bound into a suitable weapon to aid mortal efforts to battle evil How do you think Holy Avengers are made? ;) Another thing to consider on the slavery elemental debate, Elemental are immortals. How much are important 50-100 years of inprisonment for a creature that live for eons? Sooner or later an item would break or crumble with age and the elemental will be free to go back home (and knowing the Houses, they probably build items/binding to last a limited number of years to gain on manutention/customer service "you need to bring the skyship for a check-up every 5 years or the warranty is void" :) ).
Solarious 11-13-04, 05:28 PM	I had actually already considered this, and decided non-elemental bindings would be both rare AND more severe in the moral implications. Binding a fully sentient being against its will would definitely be enslaving it & therefore Evil. That’s not to say an immortal celestial might not agree to be bound into a suitable weapon to aid mortal efforts to battle evil & fiends might enjoy the chance to reek mayhem in the mortal world. Not to mention that some celestials and demon/devils already have this kind of ability through channeling or possession, respectively. A really underused option of Eberron, IMO.
Alexius D'Cannith 11-13-04, 08:37 PM	firstly id like to say, Slavery is wrong okay, just wrong, Now on with my point, we (modern society) have come to that conclusion through a very long period of struggle, reform and bloodshed, but then we were only dealing with slavery of our own species, Eberron dosnt nessercarily have the same ethics that we people have, Slavery may be legal in some places dependant on race, for instance slavery of any kind is legal in Darguun, so if you told them elementals were sentient creatures enslaved they would say, who cares a slave is a slave, in thrane im willing to bet you can be burnt at the stake for being a 'witch' regardless if you are an evil spellcaster or just unpopular, Nowhere is it mentioned if Women have been fully emancipated, On eberron things we consider moral crimes and sins may actually be legal and acceptable, on the other hand the reverse might be true as well....... It is a dangerous thing viewing other cultures through your own moral viewpoint, Some countries have the death penalty others consider it abhorrent for the state to kill, yet on Eberron like the middle ages its legal and some might say wise to carry around Swords and bows Imagine the problems Eberron has, when you have enough trouble convincing a human that An Orc or Half Orc is not a subhuman animal that can be treated however you like and that a warforged is not property but a sentient you start to realise that Equal rights for Elementals is Waaaaaay down the list of priorities, Halflings and gnomes are probably still trying to get equal respect and rights in non small lands (and to have people stop treating them like children) Minotaurs and Ogres are trying not to be considered blood thirsty beasts, Humans and elves are trying not to be considered Tasty Treats for blood thirsty beasts, The dynamics of a many raced society are quite confusing and complicated, And the Ashbound dont care about trying to change opinions with arguments and public debate, they find killing Arcane magic users/item owners and breaking their stuff more direct,