Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jeff Campbell 08-12-05, 03:43 PM	I'm sorry, but I tried, and D20 just isn't for me. Do any of you use another system? I am thinking of using either TORG or Savage Worlds. I want to use a much lighter system, with lot's of high flying action. Any suggestions?
Charles Phipps 08-12-05, 04:23 PM	I'm sorry, but I tried, and D20 just isn't for me. Do any of you use another system? I am thinking of using either TORG or Savage Worlds. I want to use a much lighter system, with lot's of high flying action. Any suggestions? White Wolf's storyteller system works well with D&D games; melee, dodge, + dexterity are very simple methodry. I use Mutants and Masterminds for Superheroes in Eberron.
Griff_Goodbeard 08-12-05, 04:35 PM	I've heard that Castles & Crusades is like D&D but with a "rules light" system. I don't have any experience with it personally, but it might be worth checking out.
Cloud Divider 08-12-05, 04:41 PM	I'm sorry, but I tried, and D20 just isn't for me. Do any of you use another system? I am thinking of using either TORG or Savage Worlds. I want to use a much lighter system, with lot's of high flying action. Any suggestions? Like you, I'm not a particularly big fan of d20, and tend to like lighter systems. I'm still running Eberron using the base system, however. There's a few things Eberron does that makes d20 at least a little bit more palatable to me (the general low-level thing makes a BIG difference). I've toyed around with using Savage Worlds. In fact, I "converted" a couple of my PC's over, just to see how they'd work. There's also a few sites out there that gave some decent conversion guidelines. If we have an "off night" I might run a one-shot session using the Savage Worlds versions. It's important to remember that you're shooting for a "general flavor" conversion, and NOT a literal conversion. SW is rather more "lower resolution" when it comes to the fine details (for instance, a SW spellcaster has MANY fewer Powers to choose from than an equivalent d20 spellcaster). If you understand the Zen of this, you're good to go. For instance, the Silver Flame Paladin PC essentially ended up with high Fighting and Shooting, Arcane Background: Faith, and the Heal and Smite Powers. The Kalashtar Psion basically focused on AB: Psionics (Bolt, Healing, and a couple other Powers). The WF Barbarian/Ranger was a little bit trickier - I'm torn on whether to handle Barbarian Rage (and the other Barbarian and Ranger powers using an Arcane Background - Rage becomes Smite, for instance). An Artificer is easily handled with AB: Wierd Science (though it still doesn't quite play exactly the same way). So on some level, the PCs ended up looking fairly similar (a broad set of skills, d6 or d8 Fighting/Shooting on the low end) and most everyone had Arcane Background to handle the more exotic Class Abilities. Anyway - so I'd done a fair amount of thinking on the subject, but I'd never quite gotten comfortable with using Savage Worlds over the default system. I may change my mind once the PC's get higher level - that's the saving grace for me right now. The GM overhead is not so bad at the moment (3rd level PC's, the occasional big bad is 4-6th level) - but there'll be a critical point eventually, where finishing the conversion becomes the better payoff.
TheShark(tm) 08-12-05, 05:53 PM	Whoa!! :eek: We feel your pain. In fact, we have dedicated our podcast to answering those exact questions. A really good fit for conversion is the Mutants and Masterminds system if you like cinematic feel. If you prefer lots of crunchy bits, but just DIFFERENT crunchy bits, it might not be the one for you. Please feel free to check out our podcast (I think EP6 and EP7 deal with the pros and cons of system) to see if it's useful! www.thehoffmanstudio.com Go to the Podcast page and try those two episodes. Good luck! :)
Charles Phipps 08-12-05, 05:55 PM	In mutants and masterminds I have a lot of fun * Artificers have "Super Science" and "Devices" available to them with Superintelligence. * Warforged in addition to having the artificial being benefits also can usually have Super strength (Baseline Warforged can heft 15 tons), Fortitude, and all the other superhuman abilities plus gain devices as part of their body. * Magic is...well magic.
greatfrito 08-12-05, 06:24 PM	If I may present what I assume is an even lighter ruleset, I don't use Risus myself, but I've looked at it, and I'm eager to run a game using it. Talk about light rules! It'd take a little imagination to make it work appropriately, but the system should work just fine for any setting/genre/style of play. Risus: The Anything RPG (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus15.htm)
Guide D'Jorasco 08-12-05, 08:20 PM	I personally like D20. I agree it can dig into the actual roleplaying, but come on, it's very efficient and simple to use. D20 is like a budding seed, it has a lot of potential, but we as gamers have to fix the bugs and make it better. Hitpoints for instance are not just "number you have so you won't die" they represent your ability to take punishment, to stand against pain and such. If you want create critical hit and miss charts, make it a rule that if you go below half hit points you have to make fortitude saves to continue fighting because you are bleeding so much or you are drained. Create an energy bar or something, attacking takes x amount of energy, casting spells takes x amount of energy. Once they are out of energy make them make fortitude saves to do physical actions and will saves to do mental actions. This isn't hard, D20 is easy for people to catch on to and Eberron is watering the bud. Don't just simply neglect this system and say it's not for you, make it what you want it.
Tek 08-12-05, 09:52 PM	I don't think you should try and push d20 onto someone if they don't like it. The game is simple once you learn it, but learning it can take people alot of time compared to the more rules-light kind of systems. I sometimes feel that D&D is a bit like the english language. Its extremely easy for people who have grown up with it and used it all their lives, but to a foreign person it can and usually is one of the hardest languages to learn. The people who invented our language didn't make it easy! I think that as long as you keep with the spirit of Eberron in the setting, any system can work. Not just d20. (Don't get me wrong, though, I'm a d20 man first and always. I love the rules.)
Edymnion 08-12-05, 10:28 PM	If you don't like d20 because of the rules, might I suggest you look into the Tri-Stat system, which is mainly used by BESM? It is an INCREDIBLY flexible system (we're talking monsters, players, giant space mechas, and fuzzy little battle critters all use the exact same creation rules), but its a bit too rules-light for my tastes. Maybe you'll have better luck with it than I did. Its done by Guardians of Order, and you can even download all the base rules for free in PDF form off their website.
Cloud Divider 08-13-05, 12:09 AM	If I may present what I assume is an even lighter ruleset, I don't use Risus myself, but I've looked at it, and I'm eager to run a game using it. Talk about light rules! It'd take a little imagination to make it work appropriately, but the system should work just fine for any setting/genre/style of play. Risus: The Anything RPG (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus15.htm) Risus might not be too bad. Another "rules light" system that looks like it might have good potential is FATE (a sort-of followon of FUDGE). If you wanted to go REALLY heavy into the dramatic, you could probably do some very interesting things using HeroQuest (though it'd play VERY differently). There's probably some other decent systems in the rules-medium (rather than rules light, like Risus, FATE, and HeroQuest). BESM is probably in that category, as is Savage Worlds. The biggest thing that I dislike about d20 is how "server loaded" it is - the GM-side workload can be amazingly fierce, especially at higher levels, once spells/powers, skill/feat interactions, and magic items start becoming more commonplace. So I end up spending a disproportionate amount of time on the stat-wrangling, and less on the more important (IMO) story-wrangling. I wish I had as much time to dedicate to the GM duties as I did when I was in college, but that just isn't so anymore... But as said, it's not too bad at low levels - which is exactly why it's working for me right now...
Jeff Campbell 08-13-05, 12:22 AM	Excellent suggestions everyone! Thank you! If I had a player that was a D20 guru, I would probably use D20; alas, I do not. I was in a short lived Eberron game, and none of us had a complete familiarity with the rules, and as such, spent far too much time looking things up. It was most unsatisfactory. I just don't have the necessary time to become conversant enough in 3.5 in order to run a game. Mutants and Masterminds has come up before; I will look into it. As it stands, I am going to give TORG a try, for now. I ran it for years when it was a living system, and I think it really encourages pulp action. I will keep you all informed as to how it goes! Otherwise, if you are a D20 guru in the SF Bay area around Palo Alto, drop me a line! I would love to have you come play! Jeff.
Streamweaver 08-13-05, 12:46 AM	I'm sorry, but I tried, and D20 just isn't for me. Do any of you use another system? I am thinking of using either TORG or Savage Worlds. I want to use a much lighter system, with lot's of high flying action. Any suggestions? Can you tell us a bit about what it is you're looking for out of a system? Then we can make better recommendations. Other than those suggested here, maybe D6 Fantasy is for you?
vivid_disorder 08-13-05, 05:05 AM	There are two systems which I have thought may be suited to Eberron: one is Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. Fairly rules-light, with a downbeat and grisly feel, it has the added bonus of satisfying those who think that Eberron needs gunpowder weapons. The magic-rich environment would take a little work to adapt, but other than that it works right out of the box. The other system I would think suited is Call of Cthulu (my edition's ancient, from the 80s, so I don't know what it's current incarnation is like). I've always thought Chaosium's Basic Role-Playing system to be extremely elegant and efficient, and CoC has the added adantage of lots of evilly monstrous crunch to satisfy all your daelkyric needs. Again, the magic system is a bit of a squeeze, but you could easily adopt Runequest's ideas of simple spells, easily learned but low in power, which can be learnt by any character with the money to pay a teacher. As I say, this is from my perspective as DM: I like my players to think twice before getting into a fight, and suffer horribly if they lose (both WFRP and CoC have dirty, dangerous combat systems which kill quickly and permanently). edit: GURPS. How could I forget GURPS - it works with everything, and you can get the basic rules free on the worldwide interweb.
Salla 08-13-05, 01:56 PM	The only other system I could really recommend would be the HERO System, which is completely modular and customizable, and you can create *anything*.
DoveArrow 08-13-05, 08:03 PM	I've only played two systems other than d20. The first one was the Palladium system, which I didn't like because it took us 20 minutes to look up how they handle falling damage, only to discover there is no rule for it. The second system was the Hero System and it took a month to build a character with a lot of help from the GM. Game play was really simple, though. In fact, overly simple. We played two games and finally decided enough was enough and scrapped it. That said, d20 has been the simplest system I've played. I haven't tried these other systems that everyone has been suggesting, so they might be easier if you're fed up. Meanwhile, I know there's a basic game box on the market for players who are just starting out with D&D. I don't know what's in it, but it might be something to check out. Meanwhile, just so you know, Eberron is a rough campaign setting to start out with if you're not familiar with D&D. Personally, I'd recommend Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms to begin with, and then work your way up from there. In any case, I wish you the best of luck and don't let the rules ruin your game.
DoveArrow 08-14-05, 10:30 AM	The only other system I could really recommend would be the HERO System, which is completely modular and customizable, and you can create *anything*. If you are having trouble with d20, you don't want to use the HERO System. While it's combat system is very simple (and I mean very simple), its character creation process is a pain in the proverbial rear. Here's just an example of how they describe Strength. Strength represents the character's raw physical power: how much damage he does in HTH Combat; how much he can lift, carry, and throw; and so forth. STR also adds to the base values of PD, REC, and STUN. One point of STR costs 1 Character Point; every +5 Character Points represent +1d6 damage, and a doubling of the character's lifting capacity. If all those abbreviations make little to no sense to you, then get ready for a world of hurt. The whole book is like this. There is not a single ability that you can look up which doesn't cross reference at least a half dozen more. My advice is, if you want to use the HERO system, buy one of the character generation books they have for fantasy characters, and download the character generation program they have on their website. If you don't, it'll make the pain that much worse.
zambuka 08-14-05, 08:46 PM	The other system I would think suited is Call of Cthulu (my edition's ancient, from the 80s, so I don't know what it's current incarnation is like). The new CoC uses the D20 system, and from some long term fans of the original system I have heard it is not a bad conversion either. The original may be what you are chasing. edit: GURPS. How could I forget GURPS - it works with everything, and you can get the basic rules free on the worldwide interweb. I would thoroughly discourage GURPS if you don't want a GM heavy game. It takes a LOT of preperation for even just basic encounters and will take huge amounts of effort to convert Eberron to the GURPS system. Unless you know the system back to front GURPS does not lend itself very well to "winging it" Warhammer is good, if you want the quick and gritty feel. But be warned that unless you are forgiving as a DM you can go through PCs like a bag of M&Ms. Go with what you know, just be prepared to do a lot of conversion work to get the flavour of the setting. May I ask just what it is you don't like about the D20 system?
DoveArrow 08-16-05, 03:38 PM	What about the rules for D&D miniatures? I haven't played it, but from what I've read, it looks like it's just d20 light.
Save-vs-DM 08-17-05, 06:44 AM	Might I suggest True20? I've tried it out because a friend of mine likes the rules lite stuff. Think of it like d20 lite. I think it works pretty well and hey, it's only a $12 download. True20 (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4967&SRC=GreenRonin) My friend is actually in the same boat. She loves the setting but dislikes d20, thinking it's not story based enough (we've argued about this for HOURS). Cheers, Save vs DM
Sereno 08-17-05, 09:43 AM	You might also want to give The Window a try: http://www.mimgames.com/window/welcome/ It's really rules-light -- and free! -- and can be suited to any type of play. If I remember correctly, it seems a little similar to the "Risus: The Anything RPG" posted by greatfrito.
Jeff Campbell 08-18-05, 06:55 PM	Here is what I need from a game system, and what I want from a game system. What I need: As little time as possible spent in maintaining the game system, stopping the action to look something up in a book, any of the disruptive activities that spoil the pacing of the game. A system that let's the players feel that they can attempt to do the things that they think their characters should be able to do; a system that both allows and suggests appropriate character actions, and discourages or disallows inappropriate actions. A system that surprises me from time to time, because it's supposed to be fun for the DM too. What I want: A system that is as fast as the descriptions of the actions; game mechanics that are quick enough so that even if you aren't involved, your mind doesn't wander. A system that encourages pulp thinking, encourages swinging from the chandeliers as opposed to roll-to-hit-roll-for-damage-repeat which is the norm in RPG's. Note that I am not saying that you can't swing from the chandeliers in D20; it's just that usually the best action for you is to try to score some damage on the bad guys. In TORG, the best thing you can do in a particular phase is frequently not tied to directly causing damage, but something more dramatic, in order to be able to be more effective later. In my experience, about 90% of combat actions in D20 are intended to directly cause damage to the opponent, while the percentage in TORG is much lower, maybe 50%. This makes the combats much more exciting, because there is much more variety. Jeff.
zambuka 08-18-05, 08:59 PM	What I need: As little time as possible spent in maintaining the game system, stopping the action to look something up in a book, any of the disruptive activities that spoil the pacing of the game. You are not going to get this while learning a new system. Some systems are smooth enough that you can do this eventually, but with converting Eberron and learning a new system at the same time you are in for a world of delays and confusion. A system that let's the players feel that they can attempt to do the things that they think their characters should be able to do; a system that both allows and suggests appropriate character actions, and discourages or disallows inappropriate actions. Metascape is good, but it is very science fiction oriented and would take some effort to convert. Not even certain if the system is still available. The rules fill about 20 pages and are pretty easy to master. Plus the DM never has to spend time on rolls, anything that effects the players is resolved by a player roll. Bad guy attacks PC, pc rolls defence. PC attacks bad guy, PC rolls attack. GURPS would do the trick, provided you have the time and patience to spend on between session preparation and stick with the basic rules. A system that encourages pulp thinking, encourages swinging from the chandeliers as opposed to roll-to-hit-roll-for-damage-repeat which is the norm in RPG's. Note that I am not saying that you can't swing from the chandeliers in D20; it's just that usually the best action for you is to try to score some damage on the bad guys. In TORG, the best thing you can do in a particular phase is frequently not tied to directly causing damage, but something more dramatic, in order to be able to be more effective later. In my experience, about 90% of combat actions in D20 are intended to directly cause damage to the opponent, while the percentage in TORG is much lower, maybe 50%. This makes the combats much more exciting, because there is much more variety. Jeff. Lace and Steel was good for the pulp actions, used a deck of cards and ran pretty fast. Not certain on availability. D20 is good in that the templates (classes, levels, monster manuals. Face it, these things are just templates) take away a lot of the between session grunt work. But unfortunately you are right, the system is built around hit and damage action. I don't know TORG (one of the few systems I haven't played) but from my experience the more flexible the action system, the more time you will spend in the books, unless of course the GM knows the system back to front. The only thing I can really suggest is to go with what you know. If you know TORG, and the way you talk you seem pretty comfortable with it, well enough to rule on the fly then use that. You will waste more time trying to learn the ins and outs of a new system, and that will slow things down to frustrating levels once you go beyond the basic mechanics and try to do something creative like swinging from a chandelier.
Majorafire77 08-18-05, 09:13 PM	I'm sorry, but I tried, and D20 just isn't for me. Do any of you use another system? I am thinking of using either TORG or Savage Worlds. I want to use a much lighter system, with lot's of high flying action. Any suggestions? Heretic! Infidel! False Prophet! Actually I couldn't care less. Use whatever system you want. :chicken:
Von Ether 08-18-05, 09:14 PM	For non-d20 rpgs, I'd suggest d6 Fantasy... based on the original rpg for Star Wars, Savage Words or Adventure! (Adventure even has three "races" for low level psionics, super powers and daredevil humans.) Perhaps the best d20 fit for Eberron past D&D is d20 Adventure, though. I already allow quite a few feats in that game and the d20 version also includes the cliff hanger and dramatic scene edit rules from the Storyteller version.
Cloud Divider 08-18-05, 09:19 PM	Here is what I need from a game system, and what I want from a game system. What I need: As little time as possible spent in maintaining the game system, stopping the action to look something up in a book, any of the disruptive activities that spoil the pacing of the game. So definitely something with a reasonably straightforward game mechanic, and ideally as universal as possible. In this case, I intend "mechanic" to mean a single die, or a dice pool, or whatever, but the key is that the method is consistent, whether you're trying to separate your enemies' head from his shoulders, or talk your way past the doorman at the nightclub. d20 is much better at this than prior iterations (See! I'm on topic...). In my opinion, it's probably a little too rules-heavy...and it almost DEMANDS that you use everything it has to offer (Feats! Skill synergies! Nth-level spells! Feat-tweaked Nth-level spells! Falling damage rules! Cave-in rules! Overland movement rules! A hojillion magical doodads! An equation for exactly how rar you jump with a Jump check!). I'd originally planned to run my Eberron campaign using Savage Worlds - the very simplified system (relatively) was VERY appealing to me...but it also felt like I was going to lose something in the process... Savage Worlds, BESM, FATE/FUDGE would also fit. The more "rules light" the system is, generally the easier it is to condense the general mechanic (for everything from drowning to shooting), and also to feel MUCH more comfortable improvising when necessary (with a more detailed system, inevitably there's that temptation to actually go find the actual rule on page XX for whatever...or you'll have a player that just happens to know the page reference). Some folks don't quite like the "make it up as you go along," kind of rulesets, but as long as there's a good basic framework, I don't mind. The various White Wolf rulesets (ie Exalted, or the New World of Darkness) are also pretty good. Exalted is not as good a fit, unless you cut out the Charms, as by definition, they break the rules (and tend to require lots of rules lookups unless you're intimately familiar or have an eidetic memory). Non-Exalted Exalted (ie Heroic Mortals) could be pretty good. Adventure! may also be worth a look. HeroQuest also fits - but the gameplay is VERY different (and a bit tricky to wrap your head around at first). But it also has had THE most mechanically transparent/nonintrusive games I've ever had the pleasure to run. More on that below. Cinematic Unisystem might also be worthwhile (as seen in the Buffy and Angel RPGs) - I only have standard Unisystem (All Flesh Must Be Eaten and it's followons), so I can't really speak all that well to them. Standard Unisystem didn't really inspire me all that much, however. Cinematic, on the other hand, may work much better. A system that let's the players feel that they can attempt to do the things that they think their characters should be able to do; a system that both allows and suggests appropriate character actions, and discourages or disallows inappropriate actions. Exalted (and Adventure!) are some of the better ones in this regard - Exalted's Stunt system (you get more dice to roll the cooler your action is), and Adventure!'s Dramatic Editing (you get tokens that you can spend to adjust the scene) are really good for this. Savage Worlds gives you Bennies (that you can spend for various things, such as reducing/avoiding injury, but not quite the same as Dramatic Editing, by the book). Cinematic Unisystem has Drama Points, which are basically similar to Adventure's Drama Points and Savage Worlds' Bennies. All of those help act as "carrots" to help reward and encourage in-genre play. Feng Shui essentially reminds us in the rules that this game is about playing Cinematic Hong Kong Action Movie stuff, so doing things in a visually appealing, but improbable (or "unrealistic") way should NOT be penalized relative to doing things in a less exciting way. For instance, hanging upside-down from a catwalk and shooting at the guards walking below, gun in each hand (and shooting as fast as the guns will let you) is not any more difficult (or effective) than just kneeling on the catwalk, behind a barrel, and taking carefully aimed shots in your modified Weaver stance. Also, you do get a damage bonus if you (the player) goes "ka-chunk" and makes the hand motions when your character is about to shoot someone with a shotgun. That's cool... :) I can't think of many systems that do the opposite, however (discouraging inappropriate play). MAYBE Feng Shui (being boring isn't encouraged...but it isn't strictly penalized, either). HeroQuest is neat, mostly because of the whole Augmenting mechanic - you fight your Evil Archnemesis more effectively, because you HATE him (Hates Evil Archnemesis 13), because he kidnapped your best friend (Relationship: My Best Friend 17), and shot your dog (Follower: My Dog 13). When Evil Archnemesis runs away, and jumps over a cliff, you'll jump after him more effectively, because of all of the aforementioned Augments (ie you get a bonus to your Jumping roll based on those other things). A system that surprises me from time to time, because it's supposed to be fun for the DM too. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. Do you mean you want a system that has Critical Successes (or whatever), so unlikely stuff happens from time to time? What I want: A system that is as fast as the descriptions of the actions; game mechanics that are quick enough so that even if you aren't involved, your mind doesn't wander. HeroQuest was great for this - the entire outcome for a Simple Contest (jumping a ravine, fighting off a gang of goons, whatever) is resolved in a single roll (a contested one, but one roll nonetheless). You could EASILY spend far more time describing what cool thing you were doing ("Zhang Liao leaps up into the air, Blue Dragon twirling overhead, glowing with chi, blah blah battlecry blah blah massive explosion as he impacts the ground, stones erupting into the air"), than rolling your d20 and determining the success level. BESM wasn't bad here, either. Savage Worlds was also pretty good here, though the rolling mechanic is probably a bit harder to get used to (the Ace mechanic - max out a die, and roll again and add...essentially an "exploding die"). Once everyone gets into it, it goes much more smoothly. A system that encourages pulp thinking, encourages swinging from the chandeliers as opposed to roll-to-hit-roll-for-damage-repeat which is the norm in RPG's. Note that I am not saying that you can't swing from the chandeliers in D20; it's just that usually the best action for you is to try to score some damage on the bad guys. In TORG, the best thing you can do in a particular phase is frequently not tied to directly causing damage, but something more dramatic, in order to be able to be more effective later. In my experience, about 90% of combat actions in D20 are intended to directly cause damage to the opponent, while the percentage in TORG is much lower, maybe 50%. This makes the combats much more exciting, because there is much more variety. One of the things I really like about HeroQuest, is that it very much extracts the whole hit-and-do-damage thing. In an Extended Contest (like you'd use in a big dramatic duel), what matters is Advantage. Maybe what you were trying to do this turn was to maneuver your enemy closer to the cliff. Or maybe set him up for a brutal feint. Or maybe you're trying to play to your opponent's anger, to make him careless. Or maybe you were just trying to run him through. It's all mechanically identical (though what Abilities you roll, and what Augments you take may vary), and the meaning is strictly up to how the gain or loss of Advantage is narrated. There's also no damage rolls, which I like... :) Yeah, ok - the above sounds kinda like D&D style HP. But y'know, how many people actually use HP to represent pushing your opponent back a few 5' squares, to push him into the corner? (Well, that's not an attack...that's a Bull Rush...and that uses a different set of rolls, and rules, and etc). Anyway, I'd be happy to discuss this further - but I'm getting the vague feeling this may be less apropos of the forum, and more for PMs... As said, I'm a bit of a "system connoiseur".
Gishsarath 08-19-05, 11:25 AM	I am currently in the process of patching Iron Heroes onto Eberron for a campaign that I will be running shortly, so I definately feel your vibe. If you want to stay completely away from d20 rule-sets (like Iron Heroes, or Mutants and Masterminds), I'd recommend Savage Worlds or Witchcraft. Both are pretty solid games that seem to adequately portray the noir/pulp feel that Eberron tries to espouse. Personally, If I was going to port Eberron into any game system ... I'd definately go with Ars Magica. Just for the challenge.
Ravenscroft 08-19-05, 12:22 PM	I am currently in the process of patching Iron Heroes onto Eberron for a campaign that I will be running shortly, so I definately feel your vibe.<Snip> Personally, If I was going to port Eberron into any game system ... I'd definately go with Ars Magica. Just for the challenge. Hey , let me know how that works for you. Im waiting for my copy of Iron Heroes to turn up and see how it fits into my Eberron Campaign. Definitely agree , go for Ars Magica , you can ditch the Mythic Europe background , but try the system , especially for Magic.