Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dauntless 11-30-04, 01:12 AM	Background: An NPC adventurer has been hired to obtain a relic called the Ebony Eye, a magic fist-sized crystal, from a temple in the depths of Sharn, and has gotten the party to assist her. Unbeknownst to any of them, the Eye has necromantic properties, and is part of an Eldritch Machine being built, but that is a story for another time. Now, here is where I need help: Temple: Who is it a temple to? Originally I had planned on it being a temple of the Shadow, but perhaps it would also work as a temple to khyber cultists? Which would make more sense? Challenges: Should it be primarily creatures, or more traps and puzzles? How much of the challenge should be just FINDING the temple? Foes (challenges part 2): Originally I had thought I would have it abandoned, and filled with generic underground dwellers along with undead guards, but would it be more interesting to have it turn out to be still an active temple, full of low-level cultists? (turning what was originally a standard dungeon crawl into a Hitman/Thief sneaking and stealth adventure? Only downside here is that the paladin in the group might balk if he thinks he is taking the item from its rightful owners... unless they are evil of course!) And the most important part: What makes the adventure exciting and cinematic? Is it the lava which is slowly destroying everything as the party escapes? A climactic battle with an animated statue over a pit of lava? We need to "Eberron-up" what is otherwise a boring dungeon crawl!
Brastan 11-30-04, 02:44 AM	Interesting idea. Is the Eldritch Machine being worked on in the temple? If not, why are there occupants in the temple? Are they there looking for the Ebony Eye? Are they worshipping there because of it. Or is there presence unrelated? My recommendation if there is not an Eldritch Machine actually there is to use worshippers devoted to The Keeper since necromancy is involved (and not overdoing Vol). You'll want to mix the monsters. Since it would be an old Hobgoblin temple don't use standard undead minions. Turn Hobgoblins and Bugbears into Skeletons and Zombies. I'm thinking Zombie Hobgoblins in Medium or Heavy Armor and Bugbear Skeletons. These would have been animated the Ebony Eye. If you have the Sharn Sorce book try adding a Feral Spirit. Although the temple my be active it might not be in full use. Creatures like Darkmantles may have move in some place in hopes of snacking on the occasional worshiper. Don't forget plant life. The occasional mold of various sorts is usually an unexpected twist, especially brown mold. The final dramatic encounter need not be rising Lava or a rolling bolder. Instead try a rampaging creature like an undead True Dragon. Give the players chills by releasing a Zombified Silver Dragon(poor dead Chamber dragon) to chase them all the way out of the Temple while it collapse around them. There's nothing like seeing Dragon climbing out of a dark pit right in front of you mere moments after you snagged the prized. It also doesn't help that the terrifying Dragon doesn't seem to care if it smashes though support pillars as it comes for you. The other monster suggestion are in addition to the cultist. For the dungeon itself I think a two path dungeon would be best. The main way has one or two big traps,more cultist and undead guards. The other way takes a back corridor approach to the objective, more small traps, aberrations and plant life. If you want to get fancy then include a cross over point about half way though each. A place were the PCs can change paths (or must change paths if your good at the invisible rail technique). This gives you the option of having both worked areas of the dungeon and unworked/decaying. Special Cultists: A Shifter Ranger who is a Child or Winter The obvious Evil Cleric with Decay and Death as the Domains A Stillborn Necromancer Elf (possible Vol spy) :confused: ...some kind of Intelligent Undead Rogue? The Escape: Okay the PC's try to fight of the Dragon(probably) but for every swing it places against the PCs it makes one against a surprisingly weak pillar. Eventfully the stones start falling. There's only one way the PC's can run now that the Zombie Dragon has start a temple collapse and it's out the main way. Any side tunnels they used(path #2) have already been blocked by rubble. Frontally for the PCs the shaking of the temple has caused the remaining cultist to flee(little minion people always do) and they won't stop the PCs. Removing the Ebony Eye to date has not been a good thing but a boon is granted, All of the remaining undead have collapsed. Now the PCs have clear run to freedom. Oh wait did i mention the random debris. Balance Checks! Oh and your NPC who will of course be holding the Ebony Eye. Will trip just before the entrance dropping the Ebony Eye, causing two problems. She's down and the Ebony Eye need to be recovered. Hopefully the PCs clear the temple run a moderate distance turn around and see it crumble completely, crushing the Zombie Dragon as it exists. Steal what ya like or what makes scenes. And by all means refine because this just a bland ugly pebble. Hopefully you'll find a gem somewhere in the center. :whatsthis 12:45 well then, don't mind the spelling Crazed DM logging out *high-tech electro teleport noise*
Dauntless 11-30-04, 04:27 AM	You sir, are my hero! First because you asked, the background info: The Eye itself is a source of necromantic power, but has no actual abilities on its own. It is currently being sought by Vedim ir'Omik, the Karrnathi Minister of the Dead, who is building an eldritch machine which will strengthen the Karrnathi undead forces, making them more difficult to turn/rebuke/command (the rebuke/command protection is to prevent followers of Vol from commandeering forces of the Crown). The Eye is just one piece of the machine being assembled. Secondly, the party will be all 2nd level characters (having just finished the Forgotten Forge) so that limits some of the possible critters. But then again, the goal isn't to fight everything, but instead to acquire the jewel in question. Now in regards to your comments. The Keeper: You're right, that is probably a better choice. Nonstandard undead: Already on this one. A couple skeletons in scale armor are a lot scarier than the same skeletons with no armor. Making them obviously non-human could be interesting as well, but as I said above, it'll be a 2nd level party, so I can't go TOO nuts... Plant life?: You know, I never used much in the way of oozes, fungus, or plants. Dunno why... any suitable low level ones? Occupied vs unoccupied: With some of the ideas you're giving, I'm leaning towards unoccupied, with mostly undead and the like. This may annoy our rogue however... I'll make sure to include some minor traps for him to play with, only DC 20 or so each. (he has +6 or 7 to disable device right now I believe.) Smashing and chasing: Excellent! That is the kind of thing I'm looking for! It could work with undead big critters, or animated statues, or anything really. Nothing like a good chase, especially when the PCs are the ones trying to get away! I'll have to be careful to make sure the PCs aren't too slow to outrun it. Zombies only get move -OR- attack, right? Fight or Flight: I expect my players to do something stupid like attack the giant zombie dragon. To deal with this, I'll have the dragon make one attack, miss, and utterly destroy an otherwise solid column of stone. That should make things pretty clear to the poor little level 2 guys that it might be time to leave. :) All in all, a lot of good ideas! I've noticed my players have a tendency to go waaaay slower than I expected, resting up after every big fight, so I'll probably only have a couple actual combats in the entire temple, but include a number of traps and precarious situations. (That rope bridge was easy to cross when you could take 10 on your balance checks... not quite as easy when you are running away from a zombie dragon!) One of my players wanted more "Indiana Jones-like" action. Looks like he'll be getting it! Anyone with more ideas, please post them!
Klapperman 11-30-04, 07:46 AM	You state you're leaning more toward unoccupied with mostly undead, given their current level (2) intelligent undead (excluding perhaps the zombie dragon) are out of the picture. This means that your player's will rest after each battle seeing as there is nothing intelligent around the search/hunt for them. If you keep the temple small this shouldn't be a problem as most players will want to press on, but if you plan on a somewhat larger temple, perhaps with more than one floor this could really slow down the action. Maybe a setup like 'The Mummy' where the two teams are competing against eachother could hasten things up a little. In this case a small group of equal level cultists/rival explorer's arrive at the same time or have started a little earlier with pack animals or camp remains hinting at their presence. This way your party will have to move fast the get the Eye first. Also if your players are anything like mine, just grabbing a artifact from it's pedestal will lead to endless searching and discussions to make sure it's not trapped or cursed (why they don't trust me I do not know :D ). That could be a great moment for a cultist/explorer to grab it for them, and subsequently after much shaking and rumbling being devoured/smashed by the rising zombie dragon/animating statue and dropping the Eye. Plus you could use them as fodder to warn them for plant life (like deadly mold which they've never encountered before). Just some ideas. Hope they help.
polt 11-30-04, 08:10 AM	And remember, verything non-undead you kill in the dungeon, the Ebony Eye raises as Undead, oh yeah! What are the players gonna say, when they finally kill the remaning exploring Keeper priest, and after 5 rounds he rises as an intellegent undead.
Dauntless 11-30-04, 02:06 PM	Maybe a setup like 'The Mummy' where the two teams are competing against eachother could hasten things up a little. In this case a small group of equal level cultists/rival explorer's arrive at the same time or have started a little earlier with pack animals or camp remains hinting at their presence. This way your party will have to move fast the get the Eye first. Also if your players are anything like mine, just grabbing a artifact from it's pedestal will lead to endless searching and discussions to make sure it's not trapped or cursed (why they don't trust me I do not know :D ). That could be a great moment for a cultist/explorer to grab it for them, and subsequently after much shaking and rumbling being devoured/smashed by the rising zombie dragon/animating statue and dropping the Eye. Plus you could use them as fodder to warn them for plant life (like deadly mold which they've never encountered before). More great ideas! Adding a second team in the ruins will create some extra interest on the part of the party, and I like the "give the dragon/statue an NPC to smash" idea. You guys are all a big help so far!
Gurv 11-30-04, 11:13 PM	Something to keep in mind is that just because something is way above the party CR doesn't mean you can't use it. If there is an undefeatable monster or obsticle in the way, the goal may become avoiding it, not fighting it. A good example is green slime. A chamber dripping with the stuff isn't something a 2nd level party can get past: they need to find a way around. The same applies to pools of lava, dormant undead giants, and howling rivers of souls. Finding the way around can be as much of a challenge as a combat, and often a lot more fun.
Dauntless 12-01-04, 12:07 AM	Gurv: That (along with someone else's comment about options) gives me a crazy idea. No need to have a linear dungeon design. Lots of options on different rooms, each with different hazards which need to be dealt with. Some might be combat (monstrous vermin, etc), some might just be avoidance (lava, giant pits, oozes, etc). Players will have to try to decide which one they are best suited for, and tackle it.
Gurv 12-01-04, 11:06 AM	Gurv: That (along with someone else's comment about options) gives me a crazy idea. No need to have a linear dungeon design. Lots of options on different rooms, each with different hazards which need to be dealt with. Some might be combat (monstrous vermin, etc), some might just be avoidance (lava, giant pits, oozes, etc). Players will have to try to decide which one they are best suited for, and tackle it. :dancin: Have three ways through a dungeon, each blocked by a different hazard. It does wonders for eliminating the feeling the PCs are being railroaded. And if you don't overdo it, you can always block the way they got in when they decide to get out. Thus forcing them to go through a different encounter on the way out (although that -might- look like railroading). Like I mentioned, you can also use monsterous encounters as avoidance encounters. If there is a creature that is obviously beyond the abilities of the characters, then it pretty much turns into an obsticle. But unlike a wall, it is an obstcle that might have a creative solution. The best example I can think of is Fluffy from Harry Potter. A chained, high CR monster that the PCs can't defeat, but might be able to run past, sneak past, or even find a way a solution to (the music in HP, but bribing with food or gold is another classic). Remember to award XP based on how much of a challenge something was, not what the book says, as that assumes defeating it in fair combat. If they sneak/run past something that cannot pursue, figure out the worst that could happen to them. If they stand to lose 20% of their resources, then it is equal CR.
Dauntless 12-01-04, 09:13 PM	Exactly what I was thinking Gurv. :lightbulb
EscherEnigma 12-02-04, 02:16 AM	hm, are your players the kind to plunge ahead and not look back at the rooms they could have gone through, or would they, after fully exploring door number 1, go back and find what was behind door number 2 anyway? If they're more likely to follow a path all the way to the end (and the prize) then to fully explore every room they can, then you only have to plot two paths through, one set of encounters for getting there, and one back. Oh sure, have some junctures and whatnot so they don't feel like theres only one path, but have the fact of the matter be that whatever door they go through (unless they try to double back) leads into the next area you have planned. Of course, if they ARE likely to regularly double back to see what was in those other rooms, somethign like this doesn't work nearly as well. but it can help keep down prep time since you dont' have to plot all outcomes, since whatever they choose they go into the next room in sequence.
ThanisKartaleon 12-02-04, 04:35 AM	Zombies only get move -OR- attack, right? Mostly right. Zombies also have access to the charge action which allows them to move at twice speed and attack (+2 to hit, -2 to AC) A suggestion: Forshadow the zombie dragon. Have the PCs come across the half-eaten remains of a Flamer, his holy symbol discarded to one side, after they've already come in the dungeon more than half-way. Also the body of the Cultist who raised the dragon and subsequently lost control of it, maybe closer to the location of the dragon.
okaynowa 12-02-04, 09:02 AM	I like a little variation of Gurv's suggestion (big nasty meant to be avoided more than fought). Goes something like this: 1) Party gets into temple, exploring it and navigating multiple physical obstacles/traps to get to The Big Room (tm). Various paths available. The obstacles can be suspended, but not permanently disabled. That is, they either rearm themselves (weak), or the way they overcome the obstacle means they'll have to figure out a new way back (harder, but see below). 2) The guardian critter, too tough to take on directly, is keyed to the treasure and pursues the characters back to the exit. Characters can fight it off for a few rounds at a time, beating it back just long enough to navigate an obstacle and bring themselves closer to escape. Party either dramatically defeats the beast right at the end, or narrowly escapes it (dreading its eventual return!). It's a cinematic style, and you don't have to worry too much about ecology (since there's only one creature), and definitely makes the monster feel like a unique threat. Only problem is coming up with the clever traps...
Gurv 12-02-04, 10:26 AM	2) The guardian critter, too tough to take on directly, is keyed to the treasure and pursues the characters back to the exit. Characters can fight it off for a few rounds at a time, beating it back just long enough to navigate an obstacle and bring themselves closer to escape. Party either dramatically defeats the beast right at the end, or narrowly escapes it (dreading its eventual return!). I like. A twist on that is using the guardian critter to make a path one-way. Characters sneak through a room containing a Huge, unbeatable monster. They don't quite make it: the creature awakens/activates and chases them to the Tiny Door(tm), where they leave it behind, like a cat at a mousehole. Now they need another way out. Think of Lord of the Rings, when they are attacked by the tentacled monster outside of Moria. They're pretty much screwed, and only save themselves due to the cave-in. But that means they have no choice but to forge on through, dispite the many reasons not to.
Dauntless 12-02-04, 06:54 PM	I'm having trouble coming up with good trap/challenge ideas. So far, I have a few basic ones, but I need more thoughts. Category 1: Easy challenges. These are the ones sprinkled liberally about the complex. These include monstrous vermin, skeletons, generic relatively weak combat encounters, as well as very simple traps (pit traps, arrow traps). Category 2 is the more complicated challenges. I really only plan on needing 4 or so of these, but they have to be good ones. Basically here is the layout I want to use --Big Challenge 1 -- -- Big Challenge 3 -- Entry < > Interchange < > Climax Room --Big Challenge 2 -- -- Big Challenge 4 -- Entry: First room or series of halls. Minor challenges (vermin) present. It should finish off with a choice for the PCs as to where to go. Big Challenge 1: ???? Big Challenge 2: ???? Interchange: This is where the cross over occurs. Both previous paths dump out into this room. This is probably where the party actually encounters the NPC competition, most likely locked in combat with something. (Optional as to whether or not that something is defeatable, or if it just has to be avoided) This gives the PCs a chance to interact with the other group in a positive or negative way. Also it provides another choice on which path to continue onwards into the temple. Big Challenge 3: ???? Big Challenge 4: ???? Climax Room: Standard evil temple main chamber with altar and the magic item which you aren't supposed to touch. The item itself will be warded with a minor trap, but removing the item triggers the major trap (releasing the zombie dragon!). Dragon attacks, breaks things, starts bringing down the house (literally). I'm thinking the eventual cave in and destruction of the temple will lead to caving in specific paths so I can force the PCs to take a specific path back outside. The question is, what goes into the various big challenges? I'm having a hard time coming up with things cool and cinematic, but still making them almost make sense. (completely making sense is not required, but they should almost make sense) I need thinks akin to the more complicated/dangerous traps like those in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, not just simple traps. Any ideas?
okaynowa 12-03-04, 02:40 AM	Way I see it, you got options for three kinds of "traps": 1) Traps the temple builders put in place to deter the unfaithful, 2) Traps put in afterwards by interlpoers, 3) and "naturally ocurring" hazards that result from decay over time. We're going for an Indiana Jones thing here, so let's see if we can find an example for each... 1) Okay, a little variation of the "two keys" security system. This is an old temple, right? In the room before the holy of holies (the treasure chamber), there are a number of stone pillars with metal prayer wheels. A prayer wheel is a Buddhist/Tibetan concept-- this cylinder that is spun during chants and such. These prayer wheels must be spun in order to open the door to the last chamber. Stop spinning, and the door shuts almost immediately (it's magically assisted). The wheels are too heavy to keep spinning on their own--a character must keep at it with both hands. Additionally, due to time, the prayer wheels have become awfully noisy. Not only is the sound of it guaranteed to be heard through most of the temple, but a person spinning must make a tough Listen check to hear anybody else talking (or crying for help). Further complication-- all the prayer wheels must be spinning to open the door, and the number of wheels present is just enough to cut the party in half (that is, if your party has 6 players, put in 3 wheels). That'll make 'em nervous, and they'll have to figure out who's going in and who's maintaining the escape route. 2) Interloper traps are more likely to be one-offs. They often use less sophisticated tech, and are meant more as warnings. These are simple spring traps, snares, and the old bucket-of-acid-over-the-door. Really don't need any of those here, I think, but I'd recommend a wire snare or suspension snare (character ends up hanging from the ceiling by his ankle). It's not too dangerous, but slows them down a bit and puts them on guard. 3) The temple at one point had a second, lower layer. Alternately, one of the critters that has taken up residence in the temple came up from the Underdark, excavating along the way. Net result is that in one of the areas through which the party must pass, the floor has been substantially weakened. It can be traversed carefully (5' per round is safe), but not too fast or you bust through. If they have to move quickly, they can, but a balance check (DC XX?) is required to make it safely through a space, and renders one or more squares behind them impassable (as in gone). Penalty for falling through depends on how you want to test the party's strengths. Maybe it's just a long drop into a lower chamber, maybe there's pointy bits down there, maybe its... "Asps. Very dangerous." Ooh! Better yet, make it an old flooded level-- water is a hazard, but not too dangerous unless you're a heavily armored fighter who needs to get back up quickly. Getting across will require patience. Getting across quickly will be like playing Q-bert. You know, I think I'm going to use these in one of my dungeons, too.
Alexius D'Cannith 12-03-04, 02:30 PM	one would hope that at the sight of a Huge/Gigantic zombie dragon crawling out a hole that a half way sane 2nd level party would run away, if they stand and fight something so darn big and nasty then someone does need to die messily to discourage the others
Dauntless 12-04-04, 01:55 AM	After some reconsideration, and reading some of these posts, I think it'll go something like this. Room 1: Entry hall. Exits from here lead to hallway1 and hallway2 Hallway 1/2: Each have a number of rooms off of them. Old storage rooms, quarters, kitchens, etc. Generally boring stuff. These areas have been infested with standard underground critters (monstrous vermin, plantlife, oozes, etc). Both of these halls eventually lead to Room 2. Room 2: Central rotunda. Cue the undead hobgoblins. These are loyal followers of the Keeper who volunteered to defend the temple for all eternity. They have successfully managed to stave off the unintelligent monsters (as their orders are to kill any living creatures which enter, this includes vermin, oozes, etc). From here, there are two more passageways out. Passageway 1: Undecided thus far, but definately some form of trap/puzzle/riddle room. Shouldn't be lethal, but definately difficult and time consuming. Passageway 2: Ditto. Main Altar Room: Both passageways lead here. From here, there are two large archways which lead into treasure rooms, which are easily visible (and tempting!). Every treasure in each of those rooms is trapped though, so getting them all will be tricky. In any case, the Eye is located in the main altar room. It should be placed so that it is difficult for one person to get working alone. Perhaps it'll be suspended from the ceiling over a pool of lava? That should get them thinking! :) More help needed: Basically I need to come up with some solid ideas on what to put in the two passageways to have good traps/challenges/puzzles. I'd prefer one to be more about physical things (skill checks, etc), and the other to be more mental (figuring out how to accomplish something) but that isn't a hard and fast rule. Ideally they should be time consuming, but not TOO deadly. (The Zombie Dragon does that job well enough, plus the assorted traps.)
TheSecondZombieJesus 12-04-04, 02:09 PM	I was always fond of the idea of a sloped hallway, which goes up from where the PCs enter. At the base of the corridor is a plate, which when stepped on makes very, very obvious cog/stone grating sounds. This alerts enemies in areas nearby, but also causes oil to flow out of the top of the side walls. This oil coats the entire corridor (except the roof) and requires balance checks to get up the slippery slope. If a PC fails their balance check, they slide down again. If you were feeling really nasty, you could have another plate about half-way up the slope, which lights the oil at the base of the slope. Run PCs, run! --------------------------------| 1:::::::::::::::2::::::::::::::::::::|Do or --------------------------------| <======= Slopes down this way 1 = First plate 2= Second plate Also at 1 could be a statue of a dragon that uses a mini-breath weapon to light the oil. (Thereby foreshadowing the dragon encounter) Also on the diagram (in the form of dots) are possible handholds, or just worn down places on the path which are easier to walk on that just flagstones. Use these if your PCs have abysmal balance skills.
Dauntless 12-04-04, 11:33 PM	Interesting idea 2ZJ, but I'm looking for something a little more static. Something which could be left for hundreds and years and continue to foil people who aren't supposed to get in. Also, one more thing you can include: Lava. Don't be afraid to include molten lava, as the area they are in is in close proximity to it.
Brastan 12-05-04, 02:00 AM	Imagery and references for riddles. Consider taking the answers for any riddles from the time period when the place was built. Perhaps a references to one or more of the Goblin Artifacts in the Magic items chapter of the ECS. Lava... Lava.... Lava..... Immediately stepping stones come to mind but that has way to much risk involved. Here's an odd idea, instead of stepping stones use a stone grating. Remember we are in the depths of a manifest zone to the Plane of the Sky. Floating architecture is quite do able. Said stone grate is just diffuses enough to put a foot thought but no real danger of falling. At first the PCs my be hesitant to step on to the grate but to reassure them is a big huge stone or metal alter/sarcophagi in the center. The Lava pool is far enough below not to create a damage threat to the PCs while they are in the room. As to the actual threat I don't have a good idea a this time. But there's your lava and an unnerving situation. A thought about the rival group. They should start with a large number of 1st level warriors, experts, and commoners. If both groups meet before they enter the dungeon this may help give the PCs a reason not to try to kill them straight off. It also helps it the rivals are not give a directly combative attitude. Then once they re-meet in Room 2: Central rotunda the PCs will note that their opposition has lost a noticeable number of flunkies but still just a few to many to fight in open combat. This may make the PCs fell superior/lucky, especially if they didn't get hurt much on their path. "Ha Ha, looks like we took the easier route." This is just a fell good moment that could be added if you have time and opportunity. This is also like most other evil dungeon retrieval groups I've seen in movies. They always seem to have extras that die as the get pushed into traps and eaten by monsters.
Dauntless 12-05-04, 03:19 AM	I like the laval grating idea! Balance checks galore, and penalties if they move at more than half speed! On the way out of the place, I think I'll have some rocks and whatnot smashing holes in the grating to look a bit more dangerous. Only concern I have is setting the DC. If it's low enough that everyone can take 10 and pass it easily the first time through, it isn't really much of a challenge. But if I make it much more dangerous, the less than dextrous paladin, cleric, and psion will likely put a foot through very often. --- As for the other party: They will be primarily neutrals (except for maybe an evil rogue) who are down there for the same reason the party is: profit. In fact, they've been hired by the same person to get the same object. The NPC hiring the two groups doesn't care who brings it to him, as long as SOMEONE does.