Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thedonkdonk 11-21-04, 01:24 AM	My group is all ECL 11... Human Lich Cleric, Halfling/half-demon Sorcerer, Human Vampire Warrior and Githerzai/half-dragon Monk. All evil. Hanging out in the city of Atur in Karrnath. The cleric seems to be overpowered and will probably be dying(again). That player envisions a rogue. Anyways i am having trouble keeping the characters together. The halfling wants to destroy the light rail (dont ask why). The warrior want to <i>dominate</i> the world. And the monk just kills everything "not perfect". I am afraid that everyone is going in diffrent directions. The monk character can be changed out but not the sorcerer or warrior. Any ideas for an adventure hook to keep them together would be great. Or just tell me to start over. thanks in advance.
LazarusX 11-21-04, 02:49 AM	My group is all ECL 11... Human Lich Cleric, Halfling/half-demon Sorcerer, Human Vampire Warrior and Githerzai/half-dragon Monk. All evil. Hanging out in the city of Atur in Karrnath. The cleric seems to be overpowered and will probably be dying(again). That player envisions a rogue. Anyways i am having trouble keeping the characters together. The halfling wants to destroy the light rail (dont ask why). The warrior want to <i>dominate</i> the world. And the monk just kills everything "not perfect". I am afraid that everyone is going in diffrent directions. The monk character can be changed out but not the sorcerer or warrior. Any ideas for an adventure hook to keep them together would be great. Or just tell me to start over. thanks in advance. Is this an Eberron campaign??....Half-Dragon??....I assume that this particular group of evil adventurers never get reputation....never go into town, because as soon as that 1/2 dragon gets any type of notoriety; the dragons will be having a nice....long....talk with him/her. BTW, I assume you started out this campaign at lvl 11?? That means you started the campaign out with characters that were already higher than most of Eberron. I don't know...it's your campaign; do with it what you will. My personal suggestion is scrap the campaign and start anew. You don't have to make the adventurers good guys...but start them at low levels; so they appreciate the world of Eberron....not make them gods among men right off the bat. Also; how exactly does a ECL 11 Half-Dragon hide him/herself from the Dragons and Vol? I'm sure they both would love to disect the 1/2 dragon. The Lich I really don't see a problem with...my necromancer will try to become one as well....with time! I want to see my character grow into a Lich...well, at least grow personality wise until finally they've had enough of the natural life and want to be part of the eternal. Apologies if any of this is sounding harsh; just really REALLY love the setting of Eberron; and I think your group might be hindering itself by not allowing themselves to fully embrace the world as low-levels and mid-levels first. Just my 2cts.
LazarusX 11-21-04, 03:30 AM	After rereading my post; I must confess that during typing it...I was also playing 2 Poker Online Tournaments and PM'ing with Taelok. Although my language is abit rough; I would like to solidify the fact that I think it cheapens the campaign to start out your characters at mid/high levels. Add in the fact that now...since they are evil characters; not only do they want to maim/destroy/rule the world....for the most part; they can start doing it! Keep in mind though; if any of your ECL 11 characters take any major action against Khorvaire...they will have a whole lotta ECL 20+ dragons to concern themselves with; as well as a ECL 16(or higher) Lich 1/2 dragon + all of her undead legion; add in possibly the Lord of Blades and the Lords of Dust(hey, you can't rule the world....we want to!) So; actually, I'd go with it. It would be a campaign unlike any other. You'd have Dragons working with Rak's working with 'Forged working with Liches to stop your characters. I jest, of course...seriously; tell your players that they might enjoy the world alittle bit better if they truly get to see the world through eyes that can die.
Save-vs-DM 11-21-04, 03:52 AM	While you're certainly not running the kind of game that I do, I do have some suggestions for ya! You have a half-dragon in the party. This is really, really going to **** off the chamber. As such, use the chamber for you. Evil only works well together when they have to cling together in a desperate bid for survival. Bring the chamber down on them - hard. It make it very, very crystal glass clear to the other members that the chamber wants them dead as well for the crime of hiding the half-dragon. There is no chance for them to shift sides, because the chamber will kill them on sight before listening to any proposals. Killing the half dragon simply gives them one less ally. Now you're players are in a bind. Who can they turn to for help? They can't fight the chamber alone, and hiding from dragons is hard. Do they turn to the Blood of Vol (assuming they know her true nature) in the hopes that she might take pity on another half-dragon? If so, Vol might hide them in return for their skills. They are powerful enough to really aid her, without being so powerful as to threaten her. I suggest dropping hints that she is a good refuge. If they fall under her employ, now you have them where you want them. She can provide them direction in the form of power. Make sure that she is always more powerful than they are - as the party rises in level, so does vol. She can provide them important missions, missions which require a small team of powerful individuals. Occasionally throw in a threat from the chamber just when they think it might be safe to strike out on their own again. Tough threats, but not enough to kill them. Keep them constantly worrying about where the chamber might be, who they might be employing. This can lead to some great interaction - how does Vol react to another half-dragon? Are they kindred spirits or abominations? How does she treat the lich? You can also start dropping in hints about other power groups. The Lords of Dust might be very intersted in the half-fiend - but can they be trusted or are they working for the dragons too? This changes the game from "we kill everything" to "how can we accomplish our goals in the least flashy style possible." They want to go unnoticed - stealth, guile and cunning are now much more important than raw power. In the end, this might provide you with a great deal of possibilities and some wonderful roleplay. Roll with the punches, bring the threats down hard and fast, and provide them with a more powerful ally to keep them in check. Just my :twocents: SvD
Setherial 11-21-04, 05:01 AM	The higher level you dm the more difficult it becomes keeping a party together as they start feeling they can handle things on their own even if the rest thinks it's not such a good plan. You have this fenominon in good parties, more so in neutral parties and for sure in evil ones. Chaotic evil can't be played, maybe for one or two sessions as evil bands together to defeat a common foe, but soon enough they will destroy eachother or or break the pact. Lawfull Evil is easier, maintain a good hierarchy, a leader and his luitenants. The leader should be more powerfull as evil has a way of advancing in rank by defeating it's leaders. A way of playing such a campaign could be to have the party work (grovel before) some demon, in Eberron this could be a Dealkyr Lord. Ok they all despise their master and want to feast upon his corpse but until they are powerfull enough to do so they will have to do his bidding or suffer his demonic wrath. These are ofcourse thing you plan before starting a campaign and not drop into an ongoing one. So my approach to your situation would be much like what the other guys already suggested. You have a bunch of out of control, increadibly powerfull, evil doers running amok umong the poor souls of a low powered world. This will draw attention, and it won't be good. Soon enough some of the power groups on Eberron will approach you and suggest you join them or be destroyed. And once the party joins them they will have focus. They will have to do as their masters tell them to do because evil is not as forgiving as good is and they'll soon find out what it takes to survive as an evil character. moohahahaha ;)
thedonkdonk 11-21-04, 01:29 PM	Just for the record we did start playing with an ECL 3. I am taking over DMing. The previous DM is all about Forgotten Relms so he was like anything goes. But now i am reading all the DM stuff in Ebberon Campaign and I am feeling a change because the group wasn't working well together anyways. You all seem to agree that its very "diffrent" than a Ebberon game most people run. The group has yet to see a changling or a warforged or a shifter. All of the input was useful thanks.
Dogbiter 11-21-04, 01:33 PM	I feel like my players are heading into the same situation. We just started the game using the eberron adventure path but I find it hard to meet my players characters evil expectations. One, a warforged rogue, refuses to admit a warforged can have any emotion other then contempt for "fleshies", the others are either power mad or just plain crazy. Years ago I played with the very same group and they played a band of demon possessed criminals. It was one of the most enjoyable campaigns we had ever played. Now it seems much diffrent. I think it might be becuse I never used published adventures and we mostly adlibbed are way thew "adventures". So I have no advice for you, but I feel you bro.
Dogbiter 11-21-04, 01:34 PM	Double Post.
JBW 11-21-04, 01:43 PM	Chaotic evil can't be played This is a bit too simplistic. CE is certainly difficult to play. In order to work a CE character into a group, the CE character must have strong personal attachments to one or more members of the group. Yes, even CE characters can have strong bonds of love (romantic, fraternal, whaterver) with others. However, the rest of the world had better be prepared fro the utter ruthlessness of a CE character. Without such bindings to other - hopefully non-CE - characters, the CE character will eventually spin away from the party. Jay
LazarusX 11-21-04, 02:42 PM	And honestly; with Eberron's alignment system taking a backseat to good roleplaying and allowing for the grey area I think now; more than any other campaign...playing LE, TN, NE, and CN are more viable in groups and keeping group dynamic going. So; if they want to be evil...let them; but explain to them that with the alignment issues in Eberron; there is no need to go to the extremes with CE; they can have just as much fun with LE, or TN. I mean...why play a downright; total evil character? That's so limiting to what you can do :) If they like to be diabolical; if they like to roleplay, and they love the ability to manipulate their environments(politically/socially); show them LE. I personally play a LE Necromancer of the Blood(Vol). That allows me "alignment access" to any social situation I would want; without having the mindset of "I must destroy all of you, or make you bow to me!" You gain alot more power when you work in the shadows. Look at most of your villans that succeed in novels and movies. The ones that die and/or get arrested are the ones that show off their power and gloat. It's the ones that work behind the scenes that really pull the strings for years and years.
Edymnion 11-21-04, 02:59 PM	Just for the record we did start playing with an ECL 3. I am taking over DMing. The previous DM is all about Forgotten Relms so he was like anything goes. But now i am reading all the DM stuff in Ebberon Campaign and I am feeling a change because the group wasn't working well together anyways. You all seem to agree that its very "diffrent" than a Ebberon game most people run. The group has yet to see a changling or a warforged or a shifter. All of the input was useful thanks.Sounds to me like you're just be playing a Faerun game with a lightning rail and artificers then. Eberron is nothing like any of the settings that have come out before. The whole dynamic has changed, the entire outlook on play has changed, its a whole new ballgame. Not realizing this and trying to work with the campaign instead of against it (hint, it was made for starting at level 1, good guys only) will only screw things up royal. If you're taking over, I seriously suggest you sit down and tell them "Okay, the last DM didn't know what he was doing, he was running this setting completely wrong, and I'm going to set things back straight. We're restarting, everybody starts at level one, no Evil or Chaotic Neutral allowed. PHB and Eberron races ONLY. If it isn't in the PHB or the ECS, you can't use it. Period." Remember, limiting your player's options is NOT a bad thing. Letting them go willy nilly with anything they want, THAT is a bad thing. Restrict things back until you have what you can handle. If the players cooperate and don't constantly give you flak about it, you can start to loosen up again. If they wail and scream and call you a bad DM for it, fine. You can tell them I personally called them a bunch of powergaming munchkins that deserve to be slapped, and then tell them that you're gonna do it your way if they like it or not. :D
JBW 11-21-04, 05:27 PM	Not realizing this and trying to work with the campaign instead of against it (hint, it was made for starting at level 1, good guys only) will only screw things up royal. This is a pretty limited view of Eberron, or of any setting. While I'm going to assume that you inverted the with and the against, you still imply that a setting is written like an adventure - for a specific purpose with a specific plotline. This is simply untrue. A setting is a backdrop and, if you can adapt to using a game term, a template for everything contained within it. Despite the application of the Eberron template, the 'base creature' of the campaign is still in the hands of the DM and players. Eberron can be utilized for a variety of playing styles, and a campaign that begins with 4th-level goblinoid characters (many with evil alignments) is no more or less suited to the Eberron setting than playing the "1st-level PHB good-guys" straight from the core books. Don't let the initial poster's extreme (by my standards) party composition cause you to simply knee-jerk into ultra-conservatism. Jay
LazarusX 11-21-04, 05:29 PM	Sounds to me like you're just be playing a Faerun game with a lightning rail and artificers then. Eberron is nothing like any of the settings that have come out before. The whole dynamic has changed, the entire outlook on play has changed, its a whole new ballgame. Not realizing this and trying to work with the campaign instead of against it (hint, it was made for starting at level 1, good guys only) will only screw things up royal. If you're taking over, I seriously suggest you sit down and tell them "Okay, the last DM didn't know what he was doing, he was running this setting completely wrong, and I'm going to set things back straight. We're restarting, everybody starts at level one, no Evil or Chaotic Neutral allowed. PHB and Eberron races ONLY. If it isn't in the PHB or the ECS, you can't use it. Period." Remember, limiting your player's options is NOT a bad thing. Letting them go willy nilly with anything they want, THAT is a bad thing. Restrict things back until you have what you can handle. If the players cooperate and don't constantly give you flak about it, you can start to loosen up again. If they wail and scream and call you a bad DM for it, fine. You can tell them I personally called them a bunch of powergaming munchkins that deserve to be slapped, and then tell them that you're gonna do it your way if they like it or not. :D Bah; LE is doable. Look at Kaius; he's a driven man. He may be a vampire and evil; yet he would be a GOOD ally to have against tyranny and corruption. He is a rolemodel for all LE characters that are good but have a selfish or selfcentered aspect to their personality; yet doesn't allow that side of him to make or break all of his decisions. Lawful Evil = fun :angel:
Grynn 11-21-04, 05:50 PM	How do you have an ECL 11 lich? Doesn't becoming a lich require that you have at least 11 levels as a cleric, sorcerer, or wizard first? And, LazarusX, you're not quite right. Lawful evil =fun+1.
LazarusX 11-21-04, 06:10 PM	How do you have an ECL 11 lich? Doesn't becoming a lich require that you have at least 11 levels as a cleric, sorcerer, or wizard first? And, LazarusX, you're not quite right. Lawful evil =fun+1. Lich in 3.5 is now a +4 LA. They really REALLY dumbed down the lich (imho). Although to become a Lich you need: A) Craft Wondrous Items/Brew Potions/Spell Focus(Necromancy) B) You need to make the phylactery(sp?) costing 120,000 gold and 4,800 XP and takes 120 days C) Be able to cast 6th level spells D) Brew the potion(takes 25,000 gold and 3,600 XP and one week) E) THEN; you need to roll a 20 on a 1d20; adding only your INT modifier to the roll(no AP's can be used in this manner). Soooo; I think the cleric character referred to in this thread went "Poof, I have a lich" and did not actually do the required steps to actually attain the undead form.
Brastan 11-21-04, 06:12 PM	Evil parties need one of two things to work, a strong leader or a stronger external enemy. The strong leader either makes the party fallow out of fear of retribution or is generally respected. Might I recommend looking at the Sith in Star Wars as an example of an LE to CE group that is cohesive and functional. The Emperor is on top and he as loyal Darkside lackeys under him. I would think Exar Kun would make a good model for a CE character who does not kill his allies or kills just because he's chaotic. You can start higher level Eberron campaigns but you need to have story to back it. Its all about the backing story. Anything goes as long as you have plot and expansive story reason of it to be.
Edymnion 11-21-04, 10:30 PM	Look at Kaius; he's a driven man. He may be a vampire and evil; yet he would be a GOOD ally to have against tyranny and corruption. He is a rolemodel for all LE characters that are good but have a selfish or selfcentered aspect to their personality; yet doesn't allow that side of him to make or break all of his decisions. Sorry man, but the role model for Lawful Evil vampires is still Gerald Tarrent, from the Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedmann. You simply don't get any better story of how to have a Vampire and a Paladin in the same party, and actually have it work :)
Splendide 11-21-04, 10:38 PM	Next week on Jerry Splendide: Rakshasa promises, and the Evil PC Parties Who Believe Them. The Stick has already been suggested in this threat - make it difficult to be them....but the Carrot is what will make them stick to the story. A long-lived (not necessarily powerful) NPC could easily make them some very tempting offers of greater power....that quite possibly are a complete fabrication.
RadicalTaoist 11-21-04, 11:15 PM	I'm sorry, but they have all those templates and expected them to be balanced? There's a reason the half-dragon template takes a 10th level PrC to acquire. What's the LA on all of those? Don't give them templates next time. 'You be a race. Not a template. No ifs, ands, or buts.' You can argue about the balance of races but I find templates to be almost always more gamebreaking.
nick012000 11-21-04, 11:48 PM	I'm sorry, but they have all those templates and expected them to be balanced? There's a reason the half-dragon template takes a 10th level PrC to acquire. What's the LA on all of those? Don't give them templates next time. 'You be a race. Not a template. No ifs, ands, or buts.' You can argue about the balance of races but I find templates to be almost always more gamebreaking. Actually, half-dragon doesn't require a 10-th level PrC to aquire. Just +3 LA. Of course, you lose hit Dice, BAB, skills, saves, and the wings, but you get half-dragon at full power a lot more quickly. And with a Githzerai (LA +2) he'll have lost out on a fair few levels. My group is all ECL 11... Human Lich Cleric, Halfling/half-demon Sorcerer, Human Vampire Warrior and Githerzai/half-dragon Monk. So it's Human Lich Cleric 7 Halfling/Half-fiend Sorceror 7 Human Vampire Fighter 3 Githzerai/half-dragon monk 6? Of course, the first is impossible, so make him lose the lich template, though let him gain levels in the Lich template class over on the WotC site.
LazarusX 11-22-04, 12:52 AM	Sorry man, but the role model for Lawful Evil vampires is still Gerald Tarrent, from the Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedmann. You simply don't get any better story of how to have a Vampire and a Paladin in the same party, and actually have it work :) You misunderstood me; my good man Edy. I simply meant if normal Khorvaire citizens knew about Kaius; he could be a rolemodel for those LE people. But yes; you are right about your specific rolemodel idea for vampires But we're splitting hairs here; because we both 100% agree on what a Eberron campaign should and should not be about. If my Necro actually makes his INT check to become a Lich (WHEN he is legally able to by official rules and limitations)...I'm pretty sure he's going into semi-retirement after that; as in....most of his roleplaying will be political and social infiltrations with other characters doing the dirty work. I just have a goal for my guy :) Of course, that's if he survives the numerous assassination attempts from Vol herself; cause i sure as heck won't readily hand over my soul to her; so she can play "toy puppet" with my powers.
LazarusX 11-22-04, 12:54 AM	As a side note; and not pertaining to this thread at all... My DM finally let me peer into MMIII; and boy oh boy...i got some new undead to create Giggles like a school girl